Honestly - Is Vengeance Viable?

BardokRedSnow · December 13

aetherix8 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Comparing vengeance players’ playtime as a whole vs Greyhost players’ time in PvP is more productive. Obviously the majority of vengeance enjoyers are not experienced in PvP, they’re pvers that jump ship to pve events the minute one drops.

So the question is the same, why cater to people who are not the core audience for a game type. They aren’t gonna suddenly become pvpers because it’s simpler. And they haven’t as the tests have shown.

The answer is pretty simple: to revitalize the population, to add more players to PvP. And frankly, it is delusional to expect that newbies will turn into skilled PvPers in 1 week (or 2 even).

It will be a different story once Vengeance is permanent because it will offer a continuity of learning. At the moment, there is no reason to engage with a mode that is unfinished and only there for a week or two.

If the only audience that matters and should be taken into account is vet PvPers then PvP is as good as dead, as it fails to attract new players while population is actively shrinking.

Why do you (need) to be skilled in one or two weeks? Where did that argument even come from, my comment was about experience because the newbies who do not like PvP should not get to shape the future of PvP for those who do.

Do you expect new pvers to parse 110k damage on the dummy?

Again, Greyhost specifically is end game content. We already had 50 and under and no proc campaigns for new players or players tired of ballgroups and the like, like what @Iriidius is talking about. Theres still organized groups but it’s not like it is in greyhost.

Fact is, if people needing a break from procs and gh shenanigans were numerous enough to keep a campaign alive besides Greyhost, those campaigns wouldn’t be so dead.

No one here can justify or advocate for Vengeance without explaining that first. Especially when next to greyhost vengeance is dead also on day 1.

If you’re tired of PvP, do some questing, go farm some sets to get better, or for gold. We don’t need another dead side campaign next to greyhost and as shown pvers aren’t enough to sustain it alone. They’re not interested and no amount of simplicity will make them become pvpers. This has been proven again and again.

GH sees new players all the time, another example of why pvpers’ experience should be taken more seriously, if GH wasn’t receiving new players, then with the amount of people we’ve seen quit the game, GH being pop locked and having a queue every night would be an interesting magic trick.

The games population is dwindling but pretty sure it has more to do with battle pass shenanigans and awful events on solstice, in pve land. Not anything to do with PvP. Also bad implementations of subclassing has done more damage to pve than PvP. Look over there first maybe PVE needs Vengeance….

And it will dwindle even more if vengeance is forced on us.

I doubt that players who “do not like PvP” try to shape it ever in any way other than “remove PvP” or “make Cyro PvE”. Basically, players who don’t like it are not participating at all unless event tickets, and I’m pretty sure that they have better discussions to read and comment on, like class refresh, or fake roles in dungeons, or fashion. Players who debate Vengeance are all PvPers, some veterans, some newer, but we all have the same objective: PvP that is working (performance) and fun (balance).

As for other campaigns, U50 is dead since conception and no-proc was a half baked and botched experiment promptly abandoned by ZOS. And how is CP2k+ supposed to take a break from ballgroups or whatever in U50? There is simply 0 alternative rn for anyone tired of GH blatant lack of balance.

GH pop-wise, trick for sure just not magic. How many times ZOS have reduced population caps in Cyrodiil? How long the queue is nowadays? PC EU GH I rarely see a queue, and if there’s one it is extremely rarely longer than 15min., while a few years ago queue could be longer than 1 hour. Sure, there are new players who try it, but it seems that far too few stay.

And you say that the fact that PvPers are leaving the game does not have “anything to do with PvP”? Is that even real!? So they left because there are too many fake tanks in dungeons? Or because new PvE content is downsized currently? Or because new mounts are too flashy? It certainly has nothing to do with broken sets or OP ballgroups, or shield/HoT stacking?

And how did subclassing hurt PvE more than PvP? Because everyone is beaming everything now? Because players can burn through trials even faster now? It doesn’t make any sense.

If the other campaigns werent good enough for people to take a break in, neither will vengeance be. It is exactly what you called ravenwatch, a half baked and botched experiment that will be abandoned by zos.

GH has been pop locked in the evenings all week since its return and was also before, especially yesterday on a friday night and it will be again today also. PC NA. The queue was hours long for some.

I said people leaving the game period, as in, all players in general, pve and pvp. It stands to reason that if pvpers are a small part of the community, and pve is the majority of players, that if people are leaving eso, it is primarily pve side and not because of pvp. Pvp has its problems and people have left yea but Pvp isnt the heart of eso's woes. We stick around longer than the majority of players do in pve land, we're a dedicated part of the fanbase.

So it is absurd that Zos looks at our part of the community, our slice of the pie and thinks to take away from us what we've been enjoying for years even despite their shortcomings instead of the real issue which is pve. Pve as someone else earlier stated is the main thing they looked at when they developed subclassing, and now its so simplified that everyone's expected to have a beam build for dps in trials.

Thats what I'm speaking of. Pvp is homogenized to a bad extent but not nearly as bad as pve which affects way more players, so why should we have to carry the effort to save this game. Pve is losing more players than we are, perhaps zos should turn to there for more tests in the future and leave our greyhost alone, lol no Britney Spears.

BardokRedSnow · December 13

And on the subject of homogenization... vengeance is that personified. All in all it is the final form on pvp side of the issue they've been having for years. That anyone thinks it will solve anything is so perplexing, of the three people on my friends list i saw playing it, they were all nightblades. You're not getting a break from anything there it shines a light on the balance issue even more than greyhost does.

blktauna · December 13

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

And why should someone who admits to only playing one week/month have a louder voice in the direction for the game than those of us who still play daily?

[snip]

Comparing vengeance players’ playtime as a whole vs Greyhost players’ time in PvP is more productive. Obviously the majority of vengeance enjoyers are not experienced in PvP, they’re pvers that jump ship to pve events the minute one drops.

So the question is the same, why cater to people who are not the core audience for a game type. They aren’t gonna suddenly become pvpers because it’s simpler. And they haven’t as the tests have shown.

Speak for yourself brother. Wednesday and Friday my EU guild is in Ravenwatch or Vengence if its up. We prefer skill based to cheese based combat.
The only reason my NA pvp guild went to GH is after the last couble od updates, the pop od Blackreach bottomed out.

Your gatekeeping and condescention to pvpers who do not like the same as you is very sad.
[edited to remove quote]

blktauna · December 13

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

And how do you know this?
[edited to remove quote]

BardokRedSnow · December 13

blktauna wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

And why should someone who admits to only playing one week/month have a louder voice in the direction for the game than those of us who still play daily?

[snip]

Comparing vengeance players’ playtime as a whole vs Greyhost players’ time in PvP is more productive. Obviously the majority of vengeance enjoyers are not experienced in PvP, they’re pvers that jump ship to pve events the minute one drops.

So the question is the same, why cater to people who are not the core audience for a game type. They aren’t gonna suddenly become pvpers because it’s simpler. And they haven’t as the tests have shown.

Speak for yourself brother. Wednesday and Friday my EU guild is in Ravenwatch or Vengence if its up. We prefer skill based to cheese based combat.
The only reason my NA pvp guild went to GH is after the last couble od updates, the pop od Blackreach bottomed out.

Your gatekeeping and condescention to pvpers who do not like the same as you is very sad.

I do speak for myself, I stated multiple times in this discussion I come from PC NA. And even in ours we have people stating they play there. Mostly on these forums. I know they exist. Yet every time you look at ravenwatch or blackreach it always says 1/1/1 and the map is a solid color. Much like Vengeance now mind you.

My duo from a couple years ago used to go to Ravenwatch with her group of four or so to farm the ones taking empty keeps specifically because they all log in and switch characters to other factions to regularly sweep the entire map from blue to red to yellow.

If that aint dead I don't know what is. You say its better in EU, I can only take your word.

Side note tho, I see plenty of comments from others on your server saying Vengeance is dead same as ours.

blktauna wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

And how do you know this?

Everyone that knows Xylena or has read her comments here knows. She herself didn't deny it. Dont wanna turn this into a discussion about individuals, I know that makes the mods twitchy but in our community, PCNA, there's a reputation and I will leave it at that.
[edited to remove quote]

imPDA · December 13

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

You say its better in EU, I can only take your word.

It is pretty the same for EU. There was group of 3-4 blue players taking emperor before primetime and then defending it from AD and EP groups (pop locked AD, EP pop - 3 bars or lock, DC - 2 bars usually, rarely 3) coordinated and attacking blues alliance together without fighting with each other. These DC tried hard to keep emperor as long as possible and they managed to do it for 2-3 hours, but then they were usually just smashed by EP+AD on last emperor keep (like, literally more than 150 players at one place EP + AD sieging from two sides at the same time vs maybe 50 DC + emperor). It was before procs, after procs introduced - these tryhards left and now it is one faction zergfest.

Poss · December 13

Iriidius wrote: »

Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.

And yet Cyrodiil was hugely popular on release and Vengeance is dead. So what’s your point?

blktauna · December 14

lol Just because you want it to be dead doesn't mean it is.

JohnRingo · December 14

Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.

Incredible. Veteran PvP players are simply never going to get any respect for the years of effort it took to achieve our current level of ability. We ALL had to start at the start. Grey Host WILL punish entitled behavior. No doubt about that.

xylena · December 14

SneaK wrote: »

YES, I want a reason to go into Solstice

Is Solstice not fun on its own merit?

Not throwing shade on reward-oriented players, just have no personal interest in rewards. The fun of PvP is in the moment for me. If it isn't fun in the moment, I don't play.

manukartofanu · December 14

Iriidius wrote: »

manukartofanu wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Comparing vengeance players’ playtime as a whole vs Greyhost players’ time in PvP is more productive. Obviously the majority of vengeance enjoyers are not experienced in PvP, they’re pvers that jump ship to pve events the minute one drops.

So the question is the same, why cater to people who are not the core audience for a game type. They aren’t gonna suddenly become pvpers because it’s simpler. And they haven’t as the tests have shown.

The answer is pretty simple: to revitalize the population, to add more players to PvP. And frankly, it is delusional to expect that newbies will turn into skilled PvPers in 1 week (or 2 even).

It will be a different story once Vengeance is permanent because it will offer a continuity of learning. At the moment, there is no reason to engage with a mode that is unfinished and only there for a week or two.

If the only audience that matters and should be taken into account is vet PvPers then PvP is as good as dead, as it fails to attract new players while population is actively shrinking.

Because the current GH has already evolved to a point where it is no longer very interesting for PvP players. This happened due to constant flirtation with PvE, not through a separate campaign but through the meta itself, which kept shifting more and more toward ensuring that you do not die. The natural result is ball groups that have no real counter.

In real PvP, you die again and again. You get better and you die even more. You change your builds, learn mechanics and timings, come back to compete, and you die again. This goes on endlessly. Even when you are the best, you still die to specific builds that can and should counter the meta. If something has no counter, if it cannot be killed, it gets nerfed.

In this game, however, everything is reversed. If something can kill, it gets nerfed. This is simply the evolution of a PvP environment into a PvE activity. The current GH is PvE in its essence, just with a high barrier to entry.

Vengeance is merely a continuation of the idea that PvE players can be drawn into PvP by giving them more and more concessions. This will not work. These are completely different players with completely different mindsets.

The meta didn’t ensure that PvEplayers don’t
die but only that PvP players don’t die. In PvE most players use 20k hp DD builds and many will go PvP with them rather than 40k hp Balorgh Monomyth Mara RC

Ballgroups flirt only with premade trial groups but do the opposite with soloPvPer, dungeon groups and even trial lfg groups.

What you call concession to PvE players was concession to premade groups/guilds and the opposite to everyone else.

Changes in the last few years have mostly reduced time to kill.
Mara was nerfed, corrosive and cinderstorm and sorcerer and arcanist shield was nerfed,
Undead passive was nerfed, Subclassing lets players choose 2 or 3 offensive skilllines and mitigation got reworked so that the product of multiple multiplied sources of mitigation gets less mitigation.

Players having no interest in PvP can’t be drawn in with concessions but players that do but don’t like current ruleset can be drawn in if you change it in their favor.

A poll has shown that 95% of players in forum have somewhen played PvP.
Even when 80% of them were „encouraged“ by rewards the remaining 20% are still a lot more players that tried PvP thinking they might like it only to get heavily disappointed than the players we currently have in PvP.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/685800/have-you-played-pvp-in-cyrodiil-before/p1

I disagree. These changes are being introduced for players with a PvE mindset. It’s just that PvP players can use them far more effectively, and that will always be the case.
If things worked the way you describe, ball groups wouldn’t survive even a second when their counter engages them, but in reality they’re almost impossible to kill.

I don’t know a single PvP game where the theory is based simply on stacking effects and living forever. No one would ever even think of playing like that, because it’s boring. A PvP player’s enjoyment comes from pulling off clean, beautiful kills. And PvP theory is always built around making the right trades; no one would ever assume you can just never die.

xylena · December 14

JohnRingo wrote: »

Incredible. Veteran PvP players are simply never going to get any respect for the years of effort it took to achieve our current level of ability.

On Vengeance, the biggest difference between myself and my opponent is exactly that: skill gained from experience. Not what 5pc or Mythic I'm wearing. Not what subclass I'm slotting. No one gets "punished" on GH when mid skill is enough to pilot a nigh immortal heal tank build.

On Vengeance, I deterministically kill unprepared players in 4-5 seconds. No fight resets. No endless block healing. No spammable one button defense. No gear procs to randomly save you from a superior opponent. Past "play NB and dots" Vengeance is all raw combat skill.

JohnRingo · December 14

xylena wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

Incredible. Veteran PvP players are simply never going to get any respect for the years of effort it took to achieve our current level of ability.

On Vengeance, the biggest difference between myself and my opponent is exactly that: skill gained from experience. Not what 5pc or Mythic I'm wearing. Not what subclass I'm slotting. No one gets "punished" on GH when mid skill is enough to pilot a nigh immortal heal tank build.

On Vengeance, I deterministically kill unprepared players in 4-5 seconds. No fight resets. No endless block healing. No spammable one button defense. No gear procs to randomly save you from a superior opponent. Past "play NB and dots" Vengeance is all raw combat skill.

I respect you as a poster Xylena so allow me to reframe the discussion. Not long after Vengeance takes its final form, sweats and try-hards will begin to optimize with the tools available to them. They will spent countless hours determining skill synergies and sequencing, efficiencies, build advantages (to the extent possible) and will eventually separate themselves dramatically from the abilities of a new player. Vengeance will find its way to the same place as GH, albeit with a different rule set. This is not optional behavior; it is emergent behavior.

Any persistent PvP ruleset in ESO will inevitably develop a skill gap over time, regardless of its original design intent.
Vengeance will not be an exception. Time investment always converts into advantage.

Vengeance can change the shape of the skill gap, but it cannot eliminate it. Given time, dedicated players will always optimize, and optimization always recreates hierarchy. Gray Host isn’t “broken.” It’s simply mature.

Vengeance, if it survives, will age the same way.

xylena · December 14

JohnRingo wrote: »

Vengeance can change the shape of the skill gap, but it cannot eliminate it.

That's why balancing video games is hard. Vengeance does a much better job managing the skill gap than GH does. Noobs have 3-4 seconds to find their defensive buttons or run to their allies on Vengeance. They die instantly on GH, no feedback except a misleading death recap.

GH also does weird things with the skill curve because many of its hyper-efficient builds require only mid skill to pilot. Heal-tank builds indefinitely stall out more skilled opponents on GH all the time. Dice roll proc builds with Rushing Agony or Null Arca eventually get lucky kills.

Lord_Hev · December 14

JohnRingo wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

Incredible. Veteran PvP players are simply never going to get any respect for the years of effort it took to achieve our current level of ability.

On Vengeance, the biggest difference between myself and my opponent is exactly that: skill gained from experience. Not what 5pc or Mythic I'm wearing. Not what subclass I'm slotting. No one gets "punished" on GH when mid skill is enough to pilot a nigh immortal heal tank build.

On Vengeance, I deterministically kill unprepared players in 4-5 seconds. No fight resets. No endless block healing. No spammable one button defense. No gear procs to randomly save you from a superior opponent. Past "play NB and dots" Vengeance is all raw combat skill.

I respect you as a poster Xylena so allow me to reframe the discussion. Not long after Vengeance takes its final form, sweats and try-hards will begin to optimize with the tools available to them. They will spent countless hours determining skill synergies and sequencing, efficiencies, build advantages (to the extent possible) and will eventually separate themselves dramatically from the abilities of a new player. Vengeance will find its way to the same place as GH, albeit with a different rule set. This is not optional behavior; it is emergent behavior.

Any persistent PvP ruleset in ESO will inevitably develop a skill gap over time, regardless of its original design intent.
Vengeance will not be an exception. Time investment always converts into advantage.

Vengeance can change the shape of the skill gap, but it cannot eliminate it. Given time, dedicated players will always optimize, and optimization always recreates hierarchy. Gray Host isn’t “broken.” It’s simply mature.

Vengeance, if it survives, will age the same way.

This is simply not true. There has never been such a massive -gap- between meta/skill and non-meta skill. What you are describing will never happen in vengeance due to the limitations.

I'm not saying this in support of vengeance, I'm saying this from a purely objective balance standpoint. The game right now is NOT balanced no matter how anyone tries to sugar-coat it with their personal biases. And this is the real underlining reason this topic has become so controversial. Vengeance highlighted the root cause of all pvp woes, but it did so in a severely dramatic manner that anyone whom hated the balance(someone like me for example) would still rather play in Greyhost for all the other associated pros vs cons that have been spoken ad nauseum in this thread alone. But others saw the fresh air of relief and now swear by vengeance. I was mostly on the fence and myself saw Vengeance as something interesting and was supportive of it as a test. But ultimately as a permanent mode, it is horribly short-sighted. And quite frankly it's more akin to a lazy band-aid solution to a wound that is bleeding profusely. PvP performance use to be dramatically -more- laggy in the past... yet it maintained a HEALTHY population because it was fun and more balanced then all the "balance" changes that came after and ruined the game.

aetherix8 · December 14

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Comparing vengeance players’ playtime as a whole vs Greyhost players’ time in PvP is more productive. Obviously the majority of vengeance enjoyers are not experienced in PvP, they’re pvers that jump ship to pve events the minute one drops.

So the question is the same, why cater to people who are not the core audience for a game type. They aren’t gonna suddenly become pvpers because it’s simpler. And they haven’t as the tests have shown.

The answer is pretty simple: to revitalize the population, to add more players to PvP. And frankly, it is delusional to expect that newbies will turn into skilled PvPers in 1 week (or 2 even).

It will be a different story once Vengeance is permanent because it will offer a continuity of learning. At the moment, there is no reason to engage with a mode that is unfinished and only there for a week or two.

If the only audience that matters and should be taken into account is vet PvPers then PvP is as good as dead, as it fails to attract new players while population is actively shrinking.

Why do you (need) to be skilled in one or two weeks? Where did that argument even come from, my comment was about experience because the newbies who do not like PvP should not get to shape the future of PvP for those who do.

Do you expect new pvers to parse 110k damage on the dummy?

Again, Greyhost specifically is end game content. We already had 50 and under and no proc campaigns for new players or players tired of ballgroups and the like, like what @Iriidius is talking about. Theres still organized groups but it’s not like it is in greyhost.

Fact is, if people needing a break from procs and gh shenanigans were numerous enough to keep a campaign alive besides Greyhost, those campaigns wouldn’t be so dead.

No one here can justify or advocate for Vengeance without explaining that first. Especially when next to greyhost vengeance is dead also on day 1.

If you’re tired of PvP, do some questing, go farm some sets to get better, or for gold. We don’t need another dead side campaign next to greyhost and as shown pvers aren’t enough to sustain it alone. They’re not interested and no amount of simplicity will make them become pvpers. This has been proven again and again.

GH sees new players all the time, another example of why pvpers’ experience should be taken more seriously, if GH wasn’t receiving new players, then with the amount of people we’ve seen quit the game, GH being pop locked and having a queue every night would be an interesting magic trick.

The games population is dwindling but pretty sure it has more to do with battle pass shenanigans and awful events on solstice, in pve land. Not anything to do with PvP. Also bad implementations of subclassing has done more damage to pve than PvP. Look over there first maybe PVE needs Vengeance….

And it will dwindle even more if vengeance is forced on us.

I doubt that players who “do not like PvP” try to shape it ever in any way other than “remove PvP” or “make Cyro PvE”. Basically, players who don’t like it are not participating at all unless event tickets, and I’m pretty sure that they have better discussions to read and comment on, like class refresh, or fake roles in dungeons, or fashion. Players who debate Vengeance are all PvPers, some veterans, some newer, but we all have the same objective: PvP that is working (performance) and fun (balance).

As for other campaigns, U50 is dead since conception and no-proc was a half baked and botched experiment promptly abandoned by ZOS. And how is CP2k+ supposed to take a break from ballgroups or whatever in U50? There is simply 0 alternative rn for anyone tired of GH blatant lack of balance.

GH pop-wise, trick for sure just not magic. How many times ZOS have reduced population caps in Cyrodiil? How long the queue is nowadays? PC EU GH I rarely see a queue, and if there’s one it is extremely rarely longer than 15min., while a few years ago queue could be longer than 1 hour. Sure, there are new players who try it, but it seems that far too few stay.

And you say that the fact that PvPers are leaving the game does not have “anything to do with PvP”? Is that even real!? So they left because there are too many fake tanks in dungeons? Or because new PvE content is downsized currently? Or because new mounts are too flashy? It certainly has nothing to do with broken sets or OP ballgroups, or shield/HoT stacking?

And how did subclassing hurt PvE more than PvP? Because everyone is beaming everything now? Because players can burn through trials even faster now? It doesn’t make any sense.

If the other campaigns werent good enough for people to take a break in, neither will vengeance be. It is exactly what you called ravenwatch, a half baked and botched experiment that will be abandoned by zos.

GH has been pop locked in the evenings all week since its return and was also before, especially yesterday on a friday night and it will be again today also. PC NA. The queue was hours long for some.

I said people leaving the game period, as in, all players in general, pve and pvp. It stands to reason that if pvpers are a small part of the community, and pve is the majority of players, that if people are leaving eso, it is primarily pve side and not because of pvp. Pvp has its problems and people have left yea but Pvp isnt the heart of eso's woes. We stick around longer than the majority of players do in pve land, we're a dedicated part of the fanbase.

So it is absurd that Zos looks at our part of the community, our slice of the pie and thinks to take away from us what we've been enjoying for years even despite their shortcomings instead of the real issue which is pve. Pve as someone else earlier stated is the main thing they looked at when they developed subclassing, and now its so simplified that everyone's expected to have a beam build for dps in trials.

Thats what I'm speaking of. Pvp is homogenized to a bad extent but not nearly as bad as pve which affects way more players, so why should we have to carry the effort to save this game. Pve is losing more players than we are, perhaps zos should turn to there for more tests in the future and leave our greyhost alone, lol no Britney Spears.

Vengeance is different from RW: no-proc campaign was enabled ad-hoc following player feedback, while testing other band-aid solutions to lag with a whack-a-mole approach, and I don't think it took as long to develop as Vengeance. Veng, meanwhile, isn't even finished yet and it's been more than one year that devs have been working on it. All Veng needs is better class balance (NB is way ahead) and at least five times more perks and loadouts.

PvE has indeed big balance issues rn (subclassing/beam) that have to be addressed urgently, because it makes the game dull and removes all challenge. But that’s another topic, nobody wants to carry the entire game; we just want to have enough players for both campaigns.

And it’s great to read that a campaign is thriving on any platform. Hopefully, ZOS won't leave your GH alone, but devs keep working towards balancing and improving it.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

And on the subject of homogenization... vengeance is that personified. All in all it is the final form on pvp side of the issue they've been having for years. That anyone thinks it will solve anything is so perplexing, of the three people on my friends list i saw playing it, they were all nightblades. You're not getting a break from anything there it shines a light on the balance issue even more than greyhost does.

Which is good, because it makes it easier to identify issues and define solutions. Perhaps ZOS won't just abandon it all for another 10 years, but instead keep balancing both modes. Some balance testing is supposed to happen next year.

aetherix8 · December 14

JohnRingo wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

Incredible. Veteran PvP players are simply never going to get any respect for the years of effort it took to achieve our current level of ability.

On Vengeance, the biggest difference between myself and my opponent is exactly that: skill gained from experience. Not what 5pc or Mythic I'm wearing. Not what subclass I'm slotting. No one gets "punished" on GH when mid skill is enough to pilot a nigh immortal heal tank build.

On Vengeance, I deterministically kill unprepared players in 4-5 seconds. No fight resets. No endless block healing. No spammable one button defense. No gear procs to randomly save you from a superior opponent. Past "play NB and dots" Vengeance is all raw combat skill.

I respect you as a poster Xylena so allow me to reframe the discussion. Not long after Vengeance takes its final form, sweats and try-hards will begin to optimize with the tools available to them. They will spent countless hours determining skill synergies and sequencing, efficiencies, build advantages (to the extent possible) and will eventually separate themselves dramatically from the abilities of a new player. Vengeance will find its way to the same place as GH, albeit with a different rule set. This is not optional behavior; it is emergent behavior.

Any persistent PvP ruleset in ESO will inevitably develop a skill gap over time, regardless of its original design intent.
Vengeance will not be an exception. Time investment always converts into advantage.

Vengeance can change the shape of the skill gap, but it cannot eliminate it. Given time, dedicated players will always optimize, and optimization always recreates hierarchy. Gray Host isn’t “broken.” It’s simply mature.

Vengeance, if it survives, will age the same way.

I hope for exactly such an outcome. When players optimize and adjust, the game becomes varied and interesting. But for that to actually happen, we need more perks and loadouts, more customization options.

Btw, what you say here is directly undermining the general mantra that Veng is a no-skill zergfest; but ofc there is the potential for skill expression and skill gap in this mode too.

EDIT Vengeance might be more successful in keeping the skill gap in check because of fewer options.

aetherix8 · December 14

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.

ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.

Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.

SneaK wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

Right….. Cause if all you do is PvP and all you have is Vengeance there’s no reason to play the rest of the game cause it’s makes PvE irrelevant for PvPers. Thanks for proven a point with your entitlement.

Majority of players are pure PvE players or mostly PvE players occasional PvPing, there are enaugh of them that you don’t have to force pure PvPer to do PvE content to keep it full when most players do the PvE content without even needing the rewards for PvP.
Content that you have to force players to play because they don’t do it for fun is bad content

Everyone who plays PvP in ESO starts from the same level as well. It's the same hill to climb for everyone.

No, it isn't. Back in 2014 you didn't even have a jewlerly system. Now, there are several more systems that were added over the years, and players need to understand them all in order to stay competitive. You were able to incorporate them one by one, but a new player has to figure out everything at once.

SneaK · December 14

aetherix8 wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.

ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.

Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.

SneaK wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

Right….. Cause if all you do is PvP and all you have is Vengeance there’s no reason to play the rest of the game cause it’s makes PvE irrelevant for PvPers. Thanks for proven a point with your entitlement.

Majority of players are pure PvE players or mostly PvE players occasional PvPing, there are enaugh of them that you don’t have to force pure PvPer to do PvE content to keep it full when most players do the PvE content without even needing the rewards for PvP.
Content that you have to force players to play because they don’t do it for fun is bad content

Everyone who plays PvP in ESO starts from the same level as well. It's the same hill to climb for everyone.

No, it isn't. Back in 2014 you didn't even have a jewlerly system. Now, there are several more systems that were added over the years, and players need to understand them all in order to stay competitive. You were able to incorporate them one by one, but a new player has to figure out everything at once.

Could be wrong but I think the point is.. you start with no experience, certain people start with more knowledge cause they’ve watched or read about it, but everyone in the beginning whenever that is for them, starts with wandering in Cyrodiil hoping not to get slaughtered.

Now imagine, being a console player at launch and fighting PC transfers..

Now a decade later we’re looking at entry level balance, disguised as performance.

This entire thing is nuts. Bring Vengeance, whatever, but keep normal Cyrodiil AND BALANCE IT so people won’t be turned off by it.

xR3ACTORx · December 14

xylena wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

YES, I want a reason to go into Solstice

Is Solstice not fun on its own merit?

Not throwing shade on reward-oriented players, just have no personal interest in rewards. The fun of PvP is in the moment for me. If it isn't fun in the moment, I don't play.

But as you already said this isn't about you and your preferences, this is about the game mode.

No offense. That's what you said before.

StackonClown · December 14

tldr - we spent years grinding and setting up gear and builds to only get it stripped away?? ye nah.. bring back GH

edward_frigidhands · December 14

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the continued discussion here. We want to share a point of consideration as we are seeing some comments around population when talking about the in-game graphs. The in-game population bar is representative of the current participants in a campaign, relative to the max cap of that campaign. So for example, if Gray Host is at 360/360, but Vengeance is 450/900, the graph will show Gray Host as 100% capacity while Vengeance is at 50%, even though Vengeance has more players. We wanted to provide that as you continue your conversations about population overall.

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the continued discussion here. We want to share a point of consideration as we are seeing some comments around population when talking about the in-game graphs. The in-game population bar is representative of the current participants in a campaign, relative to the max cap of that campaign. So for example, if Gray Host is at 360/360, but Vengeance is 450/900, the graph will show Gray Host as 100% capacity while Vengeance is at 50%, even though Vengeance has more players. We wanted to provide that as you continue your conversations about population overall.

What is the lowest each bar represents?

Kevin could you please answer the question if possible? Could 1 bar in Vengeance also be representative of 0-1 players?

Sarannah · December 14

Thinking it over: Even if vengeance isn't healthy now(which I doubt), I think ZOS should keep vengeance. As over time this mode may attract a new breed of PvPers to the game while allowing them to stay for that mode, and may allow more casual PvPers to jump into PvP as well. Growing this game's PvP population as a whole, though this may not happen instantly and may take a few months/years.

Maybe rename vengeance in the alliance menu to "Vengeance(Starter PvP)" and grey host to "Grey Host(Veteran PvP)". To make it clearer where new PvPers can go, and allowing players to use vengeance as a stepping stone into hardcore PvP(grey host) if they want to use it like that.

I think vengeance can't really have a steady/permanent playerbase until vengeance itself becomes a permanent campaign. Neither can vengeance attract new players/outside players if it is seen as only a test.

Xarc · December 14

Sarannah wrote: »

Thinking it over: Even if vengeance isn't healthy now(which I doubt), I think ZOS should keep vengeance.

vengeance is dead campaign

while greahost has medium pop, this is CYRODIIL concept that is outdated today

BardokRedSnow · December 14

aetherix8 wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

Incredible. Veteran PvP players are simply never going to get any respect for the years of effort it took to achieve our current level of ability.

On Vengeance, the biggest difference between myself and my opponent is exactly that: skill gained from experience. Not what 5pc or Mythic I'm wearing. Not what subclass I'm slotting. No one gets "punished" on GH when mid skill is enough to pilot a nigh immortal heal tank build.

On Vengeance, I deterministically kill unprepared players in 4-5 seconds. No fight resets. No endless block healing. No spammable one button defense. No gear procs to randomly save you from a superior opponent. Past "play NB and dots" Vengeance is all raw combat skill.

I respect you as a poster Xylena so allow me to reframe the discussion. Not long after Vengeance takes its final form, sweats and try-hards will begin to optimize with the tools available to them. They will spent countless hours determining skill synergies and sequencing, efficiencies, build advantages (to the extent possible) and will eventually separate themselves dramatically from the abilities of a new player. Vengeance will find its way to the same place as GH, albeit with a different rule set. This is not optional behavior; it is emergent behavior.

Any persistent PvP ruleset in ESO will inevitably develop a skill gap over time, regardless of its original design intent.
Vengeance will not be an exception. Time investment always converts into advantage.

Vengeance can change the shape of the skill gap, but it cannot eliminate it. Given time, dedicated players will always optimize, and optimization always recreates hierarchy. Gray Host isn’t “broken.” It’s simply mature.

Vengeance, if it survives, will age the same way.

I hope for exactly such an outcome. When players optimize and adjust, the game becomes varied and interesting. But for that to actually happen, we need more perks and loadouts, more customization options.

Btw, what you say here is directly undermining the general mantra that Veng is a no-skill zergfest; but ofc there is the potential for skill expression and skill gap in this mode too.

EDIT Vengeance might be more successful in keeping the skill gap in check because of fewer options.

No live service game thrives off fewer options. ESOs mantra was play how you like. Vengeance is the antithesis of that.

Inb4 people complain about gh meta, rn vengeance meta is just one class, nightblade. Nostalgic actually.

BardokRedSnow · December 14

aetherix8 wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.

ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.

Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.

SneaK wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

Right….. Cause if all you do is PvP and all you have is Vengeance there’s no reason to play the rest of the game cause it’s makes PvE irrelevant for PvPers. Thanks for proven a point with your entitlement.

Majority of players are pure PvE players or mostly PvE players occasional PvPing, there are enaugh of them that you don’t have to force pure PvPer to do PvE content to keep it full when most players do the PvE content without even needing the rewards for PvP.
Content that you have to force players to play because they don’t do it for fun is bad content

Everyone who plays PvP in ESO starts from the same level as well. It's the same hill to climb for everyone.

No, it isn't. Back in 2014 you didn't even have a jewlerly system. Now, there are several more systems that were added over the years, and players need to understand them all in order to stay competitive. You were able to incorporate them one by one, but a new player has to figure out everything at once.

World of Warcraft has been going on for much longer than eso yet retains a massive fanbase and their complexity for new players is even more daunting than this. Waaaay more of a learning curve and way more preparation needed.

This is the best example that vengeance in an mmo doesn’t belong, if it were a team fortress esque shooter then sure, maybe Bethesda should make one lol but it ain’t. WoW is on a downward trajectory for other reasons but it ain’t because the PvP isn’t accessible for John_WoW right off the jump.

John_ESO67 not getting to own the sweats right off the jump is not a bad thing. The feeling of mastery and earning is required to keep people playing.

BardokRedSnow · December 14

And just to update everyone on pop, gh was stupid packed yesterday night. A lot of fights, even more than Friday night. PCNA

Sarannah · December 14

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.

ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.

Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.

SneaK wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

Right….. Cause if all you do is PvP and all you have is Vengeance there’s no reason to play the rest of the game cause it’s makes PvE irrelevant for PvPers. Thanks for proven a point with your entitlement.

Majority of players are pure PvE players or mostly PvE players occasional PvPing, there are enaugh of them that you don’t have to force pure PvPer to do PvE content to keep it full when most players do the PvE content without even needing the rewards for PvP.
Content that you have to force players to play because they don’t do it for fun is bad content

Everyone who plays PvP in ESO starts from the same level as well. It's the same hill to climb for everyone.

No, it isn't. Back in 2014 you didn't even have a jewlerly system. Now, there are several more systems that were added over the years, and players need to understand them all in order to stay competitive. You were able to incorporate them one by one, but a new player has to figure out everything at once.

World of Warcraft has been going on for much longer than eso yet retains a massive fanbase and their complexity for new players is even more daunting than this. Waaaay more of a learning curve and way more preparation needed.

This is the best example that vengeance in an mmo doesn’t belong, if it were a team fortress esque shooter then sure, maybe Bethesda should make one lol but it ain’t. WoW is on a downward trajectory for other reasons but it ain’t because the PvP isn’t accessible for John_WoW right off the jump.

John_ESO67 not getting to own the sweats right off the jump is not a bad thing. The feeling of mastery and earning is required to keep people playing.

What? You are incorrect, WoW's PvP is the most accessible PvP ever. Just reach the expansion's max level, and you are good to go and mostly on equal footing with everyone else. Which is similar to how vengeance works. Even the time-to-kill between vengeance and WoW is similar(5+ seconds), noone there dies within a single second as is the case in grey host.

xylena · December 14

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

And just to update everyone on pop, gh was stupid packed yesterday night. A lot of fights, even more than Friday night. PCNA

And if you don't play GH during the 4-6 hours of NA prime time? Dead empty ghost town 18-20 hours a day. Of course the tiny and still-shrinking self-selected population of GH is going to keep playing GH, but those players are not enough for an active functional Cyrodiil. Not even close.

I'll bet my account that all of GH could quit the game and not be missed, but they won't all quit, the majority of GH players would simply switch to Vengeance and keep doing what they do. You'd have a vocal minority screaming for their proc sets and ball groups back like the people who want those broken buggy messy incoherent unpopular 3-way BGs back.

BardokRedSnow · December 14

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

And just to update everyone on pop, gh was stupid packed yesterday night. A lot of fights, even more than Friday night. PCNA

And if you don't play GH during the 4-6 hours of NA prime time? Dead empty ghost town 18-20 hours a day. Of course the tiny and still-shrinking self-selected population of GH is going to keep playing GH, but those players are not enough for an active functional Cyrodiil. Not even close.

I'll bet my account that all of GH could quit the game and not be missed, but they won't all quit, the majority of GH players would simply switch to Vengeance and keep doing what they do. You'd have a vocal minority screaming for their proc sets and ball groups back like the people who want those broken buggy messy incoherent unpopular 3-way BGs back.

Sorry that people have jobs but vengeance is even deader than GH in the day.

Also this didnt prove true during the first week, majority of us stopped playing, you were playing with pvers and a few gh goers sprinkled in.

Idk I can only humor so much cope, no amount of gaslighting will fool the statistics the devs will be reading.