random daily dungeon infiltrated by dlc dungeon....

Daoin

hell no, i want them to go and help themselves in normal mode then come do random vets like a normal person, or even better after normal mode or please johny and sally go full guild mode (because its safe) in vet first have some fun with people they trust then come vet randoms and that way the exp person in the grup does not always have too run around worrying about any toxic fools

frogthroat

Daoin wrote: »

hell no, i want them to go and help themselves in normal mode then come do random vets like a normal person, or even better after normal mode or please johny and sally go full guild mode (because its safe) in vet first have some fun with people they trust then come vet randoms and that way the exp person in the grup does not always have too run around worrying about any toxic fools

I doubt Johnny is farming Pillar of Nirn in vFH. And once Johnny is done with the farm and has his first build with Slimecraw+Order's Wrath+Pillar of Nirn and a necklace of Trainee/Druid until he digs up Velothi he will probably go to farm a trial to replace the Order's Wrath.

If you only do veteran randoms, you will probably not going to see Johnny until he already has a proper build. Instead, you might end up in the same group with Helen the Healer looking for Symphony of Blades or Tony the Tank looking for Archdruid set. You don't have to help Helen or Tony either, but if you do there might be some extra XP and 10 transmute crystals for you.

Daoin

no actually i ended up healing in vet fang lair with a 300cp dd and we got a clean clear (just now finished 9:10 am wednesday) so if Bobby and Ed would just do things normally instead on worrying about sets too much the exp players can worry less about toxic players, at the moment i am having to double check i am in offline mode when i go into a vet dungeon, that way when jill ends up in vet because they cannot stand normal anymore or because its mask farm and alot of players want t help each other get a mask style page like in fang lair at the moment at 300 cp (an exceptable level) they already have some idea oof what to expect in a good group, and providing jed the the tank is sober and stays the course all usually works out well although clears are not 100% guaranteed, maybe jed will even stoop drinking ne day now Ed knows how to behave in a random group properly when one player does not know the mechs yet and wont send them over the edge everytime a group cannot make it to the end and stop bleating out phony codes of conduct and telling people where they belong or even wether they should be playing eso or not
note to self: for fang lair 10/10 random group clears in a row and wheres my lucky rng daddy luck ? give me mask please..ok ok exaggeration only 5 so far haha

AlnilamE

SilverBride wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A Random Base Dungeon queue and a Random DLC Dungeon queue would still fill groups in need. Separating them would not stop that. The only difference is that players will ALL get placed where they want to be.

Queueing for specific dungeons to avoid DLCs would completely invalidate the rewards for queueing random so that is not a solution.

I don't understand why there is a problem with separate queues. We already have separate ones for normal and veteran dungeons, so why not this?

Because it increases the chances of longer wait times.

Using simple numbers lets say there are an average of 10 "Helpers" in the Base Game queue at any given time, and 1 Helper in the DLC queue. The Base Game queue can continue to keep the queue moving. Meanwhile, the poor schlubs in the DLC queue stand around forever if any of their groups needs more than 1 spot filled. And vice-versa if DLC has a steady supply of helpers while base game does not.

If the "Helpers" were all in the same queue, then everything moves along.

This is an issue because many players do not want to run DLC dungeons yet they are being forced to so that those that want DLC dungeons can have shorter wait times. This is not fair.

Having separate queues will greatly increase player satisfaction.

They are not being forced. They want the rewards for running a random dungeon. They can choose to do something else with their time.

If there are separate queues, the non-DLC randoms would have to be reduced to the blue rewards rather than the purple.

Also, once the people who go farming new dungeons right away are done, the queues will stabilize a bit more again.

twisttop138

Demalb16_ESO wrote: »

I didn't expect so many reply, but:

1) The random daily is to fill group in the DLC dungeons.... A Lot of people don't have dlc, they (until now) got the ability to switch them on or off with eso plus. So the argument that "it's for filling it's really without base. If you think that with the random daily you will fill the DLC places I think you are wrong. as the population who wanto do do normal and dlc is different is also different by the same size (because people who want to do normal don't buy dlc and use eso+) the people that doesn't own dlc and so don't queque for them (like me).

2)The reward for normal should be less, no the reward for dlc should be more like they did with the key. fi you with the new model force me to do dlc instead of normal you sould double the xp that you get. If it was a short dungeons I could understand but for xp farming (i'm farming to bring all classes to 50 for multiclassing) the time consumed is too much. Some dungeon is half an hour and you don't know with who you will be paired so in the worst case scenario you could not finish it. possible huge waste of time with no reward!!

So for me there should be different queques for dlc and normal with different level of rewards.

Hey I love to level in random dungeons too. It's fun and helps me learn my character on the job, as it were. But that doesn't change the fact that the random dungeon rewards were put in place for random que to fill in for people who want to do specific dungeons. I understand the feeling like you're wasting your time but that's a chance you take for the random rewards. It's not a baseless claim but the actual stated purpose by the devs. So it's easy, want random rewards, do random dungeons. It's normals man. They're not that hard. If your group is struggling, and your not getting anywhere trying to give advice, you may need to get a different group or ask your guild.

Heronisan

frogthroat wrote: »

Heronisan wrote: »

A cp300 player is not ready for a graven deep vet, if anyone think so they are not living in the real world.

CP tells you one thing and one thing only: approximately how many hours they have spent on this account. I can assure you I am ready for vGD on my CP295 alt account. I just can't get to vet DLC dungeons via dungeon finder yet so when I farmed Zaan at CP260 (since Slimecraw nerf, and Zaan being useful as a full set, I chose Zaan as my 1pc crit) I had to travel there manually.

I've seen low triple digit players having the top dps in vet trials, and I have seen CP2000+ needing a carry in normal dungeons.

Sure, in general you can guesstimate low CP equals inexperienced and high CP equals experience, but do not get surprised if you guesstimated wrong.

I know this, i also have friends with all achievements on EU, they are bored and make a NA account and try to get trifectas as low cp as possible, before subclassing they got Castle thorn trifecta at CP 80, also some of the worst players ive seen have been high cp, but this is not the normal.

The reason i say cp 300 is when players go from literally 0 mechanic base dungeons to now suddenly get every single dlc dungeon in their que is cp 300, its from 0 to 100, the difficulty scaling is absolute trash design.

Which is why random dungeon needs to be updated to fit current time, it was made when we only had base game dungeons, not when we had mechanic heavy dlc's.

Another sign current random dungeon is trash design is everytime a thread about how bad random dungeon que is made, what is the number 1 solution suggested by everone?

Dont use it, instead find friends and guilds you can do dungeons with

When the number 1 suggestion for random dung is to not use random dungeon finder, then this should ring some bells that random dungeon finder needs to be reworked.

I saw you suggested something similar as i have before, make some type of checkmark that lets other people que with others who also have the same check ticked off. This is to let people who want more of a slow methodical run be able to que with like minded, and same with speedrunners que with speedrunners.

Make a "speedrun" checkmark, with a description "go as fast as possible, no matter the role" or whatever.

Make a "beginner" checkmark etc, for people new to all the dungeons que with likeminded

I also believe a deselect option should be made for random que, when selecting que for random dungeon, you should be able to deselect dungeons all the way down to 8+ dungeons for your random que, letting the people who only want fast dungs for transmutes avoid dlc's they insta quit from letting dps wait another 1 hour in que. And let people who never want to see a base game dung again que for dlc's.

Either that or separate base game dung and dlc dung ques as thread starter say.

Current random dung is outdated, and everytime a new player says how bad of an experience it is, they are told not to use random dung, i dont know of any other games where this is the case.

AlnilamE

Heronisan wrote: »

Current random dung is outdated, and everytime a new player says how bad of an experience it is, they are told not to use random dung, i dont know of any other games where this is the case.

I don't do dungeons in other games, so I can't talk about that, but what would you suggest they do? If people running the random dungeons want to run them as fast as possible, which is detrimental to the people running a dungeon for the first time, who do you resolve this conflict and still have players who want to run a specific dungeon get a group in a reasonable amount of time?

SilverBride

Why did they start making dungeons longer and harder in the first place? That is the real issue here. There should not be such a large difference in a base game dungeon and a DLC dungeon but there is.

This has been causing conflict for a long time now and it needs to be addressed.

AlnilamE

SilverBride wrote: »

Why did they start making dungeons longer and harder in the first place? That is the real issue here. There should not be such a large difference in a base game dungeon and a DLC dungeon but there is.

This has been causing conflict for a long time now and it needs to be addressed.

Before One Tamriel, the dungeons had levels and their difficulty/length progressed with the levels they had from Fungal Grotto to The Vaults of Madness and then into the Veteran versions of the dungeons.

With One Tamriel and the introduction of normal/vet versions of every dungeon (and the renaming of the original Vet dungeons to II) that sense of progression sort of disappeared.

Now, not all DLC dungeons are longer than non-DLC dungeons (unless you are doing some of the side challenges). Red Petal Bastion, Moonhunter Keep and Bloodroot Forge can be run as fast as Arx Corinium, for example. But the baby dungeons (FG, SC and BC) are noticeably shorter as they are the first dungeons people would encounter.

I remember standing outside of Fungal Grotto back in the day to find a group, not even knowing how to be a proper healer and the tank I found didn't realize he didn't have a taunt until half way through the dungeon. Those were the good times!

DenverRalphy

DLC dungeons haven't necessarily been made longer so much as they've just been made more mechanically challenging to account for power creep. Which is a good thing. Base game dungeons are absurdly easy today compared to when they were new, so they're easy to just fly right through.

wolfie1.0.

SilverBride wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A Random Base Dungeon queue and a Random DLC Dungeon queue would still fill groups in need. Separating them would not stop that. The only difference is that players will ALL get placed where they want to be.

Queueing for specific dungeons to avoid DLCs would completely invalidate the rewards for queueing random so that is not a solution.

I don't understand why there is a problem with separate queues. We already have separate ones for normal and veteran dungeons, so why not this?

Because it increases the chances of longer wait times.

Using simple numbers lets say there are an average of 10 "Helpers" in the Base Game queue at any given time, and 1 Helper in the DLC queue. The Base Game queue can continue to keep the queue moving. Meanwhile, the poor schlubs in the DLC queue stand around forever if any of their groups needs more than 1 spot filled. And vice-versa if DLC has a steady supply of helpers while base game does not.

If the "Helpers" were all in the same queue, then everything moves along.

This is an issue because many players do not want to run DLC dungeons yet they are being forced to so that those that want DLC dungeons can have shorter wait times. This is not fair.

Having separate queues will greatly increase player satisfaction.

Is it truly a dlc dungeon if its basically added to the base game?

Honestly, I think zos is catching on to the trend of players trying to avoid the longer dungeons. Which is why they are now part of the seasons instead of separated.

Regardless, IF a separate queue where added for random base game dungeons (as they exist now). I think I fully agree that they should get lesser rewards that a dlc queue.

Or just make it so that dlc dungeons in general random queue come with a rewards multiplier.

I think the main issue with the difference between dungeons is the time commitment. FG1 for example can be done in around 10 minutes, where I habe seen dlc dungeon runs take 40 to 50.

The disparity in rewards vs time commitment is just bad when you look at it like that. Especially when you have already spent as much as 10 minutes in queue.

SilverBride

DenverRalphy wrote: »

DLC dungeons haven't necessarily been made longer so much as they've just been made more mechanically challenging to account for power creep. Which is a good thing. Base game dungeons are absurdly easy today compared to when they were new, so they're easy to just fly right through.

That is exactly the point. There is a noticeable difference.

While some players may enjoy the longer more mechanically challenging dungeons, many do not which is evident by these threads popping up. Many players prefer easy dungeons they can fly through, especially when running the random daily can be seen as a chore. No one wants to spend an hour on a chore.

Regardless of how we feel about it I think we can all agree that this is an issue that needs addressed.

spartaxoxo

DenverRalphy wrote: »

DLC dungeons haven't necessarily been made longer so much as they've just been made more mechanically challenging to account for power creep. Which is a good thing. Base game dungeons are absurdly easy today compared to when they were new, so they're easy to just fly right through.

The boss fights are more challenging but they're also generally longer. They have bigger set designs with longer corridors and more trash packs. They wanted them to tell more elaborate stories that tie into the chapters for a while. And then once that standard was set, it continued. It's nice the first time if you're actually able to listen to it and appreciate the environmental storytelling going on. It's annoying when you just want your transmutes.

They should absolutely go back to the worst offenders and give us portals or something to skip some of the bosses. And also design them a bit shorter more often. The longer ones are fine sometimes but we don't get super short dungeons anymore.

I suspect another part of that is they were sold separately so they wanted them to be meaty enough to be worth that. Hopefully with the content pass model we can get shorter ones again..

twisttop138

SilverBride wrote: »

Why did they start making dungeons longer and harder in the first place? That is the real issue here. There should not be such a large difference in a base game dungeon and a DLC dungeon but there is.

This has been causing conflict for a long time now and it needs to be addressed.

As @DenverRalphy said, to account for the massive year over year power creep. But also, imo, because the 4 dungeons are 75% of the group content we get a year. 4 dungeons and a trial. With the dungeons making up the bulk of that obviously. So they need to be substantial for the average group player. The last two we got were great. Not too long, but decent. Hard in hm for many and a nice little challenge in vet for a lot of groups. I will play the new ones when I get home tonight and I hope to enjoy them.

Soarora

SilverBride wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

DLC dungeons haven't necessarily been made longer so much as they've just been made more mechanically challenging to account for power creep. Which is a good thing. Base game dungeons are absurdly easy today compared to when they were new, so they're easy to just fly right through.

That is exactly the point. There is a noticeable difference.

While some players may enjoy the longer more mechanically challenging dungeons, many do not which is evident by these threads popping up. Many players prefer easy dungeons they can fly through, especially when running the random daily can be seen as a chore. No one wants to spend an hour on a chore.

Regardless of how we feel about it I think we can all agree that this is an issue that needs addressed.

Can’t really make the argument that only “some” like longer dungeons and “many” do not based solely on the forum posts you’ve seen. Dungeons shouldn’t be a chore to begin with, we need other sources of transmute besides tier 1 pvp and random dungeons.

The ease of dungeons on normal can be changed but then people will be even less prepared for the veteran queue if they progress.

We need more sources of transmute and a nondlc / dlc queue split. I’ve said it in a previous thread about it and I’ll say it again, there’s not much stopping ZOS from TRYING a queue split to see how it would affect the queue times. Why must we shoot the idea down before even attempting it?

(Heck, I’ve also said it before but if we for some reason can’t have split random queues at least give us a “queue all nondlc” and “queue all dlc” button!)

SilverBride

Soarora wrote: »

We need more sources of transmute and a nondlc / dlc queue split. I’ve said it in a previous thread about it and I’ll say it again, there’s not much stopping ZOS from TRYING a queue split to see how it would affect the queue times. Why must we shoot the idea down before even attempting it?

I agree completely.

Lumenn

SilverBride wrote: »

Why did they start making dungeons longer and harder in the first place? That is the real issue here. There should not be such a large difference in a base game dungeon and a DLC dungeon but there is.

This has been causing conflict for a long time now and it needs to be addressed.

Lots of reasons here, but at the core of it, many asked for it.

spartaxoxo

Soarora wrote: »

We need more sources of transmute and a nondlc / dlc queue split. I’ve said it in a previous thread about it and I’ll say it again, not much stopping ZOS from TRYING a queue split to see how it would affect the queue times. Why must we shoot the idea down before even attempting it?

(Heck, I’ve also said it before but if we for some reason can’t have split random queues at least give us a “queue all nondlc” and “queue all dlc” button!)

They don't try features. Once they're in, then it is permanent. People would be angry and maybe even quit if something they wanted for a long time was given to them and then taken away because it caused too much harm to dlc players. They'd also lash out at those dlc players and blame them as well.

The amount of harm that split queues can cause is huge. It could mean tons of people never get to use the product they paid for ever again. That's a far too great a risk to please a group of players who want the reward for content they're unwilling to do. Players aren't being punished because they miss out on rewards for things they didn't want to do. That's not a real issue. They might be annoyed such a good reward comes from something they don't like doing. So, they'll make threads about it from time to time. See also PvE Cyrodiil. But, that doesn't make it an issue that needs to be solved.

All customers being able to use the content they paid for is a real issue though. And that's precisely why the activity finder exists. So that all players can run the dungeons they want to run regardless if they have the social network to field a full group when they wan to run one. Encouraging us to join those players is reason for the reward's existence. No solution should destroy the reason for a piece of content to exist.

SilverBride

Lumenn wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Why did they start making dungeons longer and harder in the first place? That is the real issue here. There should not be such a large difference in a base game dungeon and a DLC dungeon but there is.

This has been causing conflict for a long time now and it needs to be addressed.

Lots of reasons here, but at the core of it, many asked for it.

And by the frequency of these threads, many don't want it.

Lumenn

SilverBride wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Why did they start making dungeons longer and harder in the first place? That is the real issue here. There should not be such a large difference in a base game dungeon and a DLC dungeon but there is.

This has been causing conflict for a long time now and it needs to be addressed.

Lots of reasons here, but at the core of it, many asked for it.

And by the frequency of these threads, many don't want it.

? I don't think anyone disputes that. You asked, I gave an answer. Doesn't change the fact that many did, in fact, want it. What of them? is one side obviously "more important?" Again with the gamble. Sometimes you "win" and sometimes you "lose".

Soarora

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

We need more sources of transmute and a nondlc / dlc queue split. I’ve said it in a previous thread about it and I’ll say it again, not much stopping ZOS from TRYING a queue split to see how it would affect the queue times. Why must we shoot the idea down before even attempting it?

(Heck, I’ve also said it before but if we for some reason can’t have split random queues at least give us a “queue all nondlc” and “queue all dlc” button!)

They don't try features. Once they're in, then it is permanent. People would be angry and maybe even quit if something they wanted for a long time was given to them and then taken away because it caused too much harm to dlc players. They'd also lash out at those dlc players and blame them as well.

The amount of harm that split queues can cause is huge. It could mean tons of people never get to use the product they paid for ever again. That's a far too great a risk to please a group of players who want the reward for content they're unwilling to do. Players aren't being punished because they miss out on rewards for things they didn't want to do. That's not a real issue. They might be annoyed such a good reward comes from something they don't like doing. So, they'll make threads about it from time to time. See also PvE Cyrodiil. But, that doesn't make it an issue that needs to be solved.

All customers being able to use the content they paid for is a real issue though. And that's precisely why the activity finder exists. So that all players can run the dungeons they want to run regardless if they have the social network to field a full group when they wan to run one. Encouraging us to join those players is reason for the reward's existence. No solution should destroy the reason for a piece of content to exist.

I feel suitably lashed out against already. I don’t think it only comes down to wanting the reward from a random queue. There’s what, over 20 dungeons in each section? We would have to select our half of the dungeons every single time we want to run a random non-dlc or dlc dungeon. Everyone who would need transmute should be able to acquire transmute by doing their favorite content (more transmute for pledges, more transmute from trials, maybe more transmute from bgs…). I’m tired of dungeons being seen as a chore and not a real piece of content that people actually do enjoy doing. I want a split queue because I want to help people who are queueing specific dungeons rather than pull random queuers into my dungeon… I just don’t want to do nondlc.

zaria

Most dungeons are DLC ones, in addition

AlnilamE wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Why did they start making dungeons longer and harder in the first place? That is the real issue here. There should not be such a large difference in a base game dungeon and a DLC dungeon but there is.

This has been causing conflict for a long time now and it needs to be addressed.

Before One Tamriel, the dungeons had levels and their difficulty/length progressed with the levels they had from Fungal Grotto to The Vaults of Madness and then into the Veteran versions of the dungeons.

With One Tamriel and the introduction of normal/vet versions of every dungeon (and the renaming of the original Vet dungeons to II) that sense of progression sort of disappeared.

Now, not all DLC dungeons are longer than non-DLC dungeons (unless you are doing some of the side challenges). Red Petal Bastion, Moonhunter Keep and Bloodroot Forge can be run as fast as Arx Corinium, for example. But the baby dungeons (FG, SC and BC) are noticeably shorter as they are the first dungeons people would encounter.

I remember standing outside of Fungal Grotto back in the day to find a group, not even knowing how to be a proper healer and the tank I found didn't realize he didn't have a taunt until half way through the dungeon. Those were the good times!

Remember doing fungal grotto back at launch, I was not level 20, we wiped on first trash as in the goblins in the starting chamber Now i'm not sure how we got there as FG is in Stonefall and this was an in Cadwell silver for AD and it was no dungeon finder back then.

You still have level restriction if you do random dungeons on an low level character, think the 2 dungeons and the dlc only unlock at 45.
One tricks for people grinding CP using RND (random normal dungeon) in a guild is to have one lvl 10 character who leaves after your in a baby dungeon.

frogthroat

Soarora wrote: »

there’s not much stopping ZOS from TRYING a queue split

There is one huge thing: players.

Vengeance tests have been troubleshooting methods in order to find out what is causing lag in Cyrodiil. They've had huge campaigns here on the forums, info in-game, and in their live streams that this is just a test to see what causes the lag. This is not permanent. This is only a test, this is only a test.

But as you might have noticed, there are still threads about it here. People panicking, "this is the end of ESO PVP!"

People are losing their minds over a test, how do you think this kind of test would go?

...but in general, they don't seem to be testing things that much. When a change comes, it is permanent. Reverts are very rare and even then they are for some very specific things and usually during PTS.

kargen27

SilverBride wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

DLC dungeons haven't necessarily been made longer so much as they've just been made more mechanically challenging to account for power creep. Which is a good thing. Base game dungeons are absurdly easy today compared to when they were new, so they're easy to just fly right through.

That is exactly the point. There is a noticeable difference.

While some players may enjoy the longer more mechanically challenging dungeons, many do not which is evident by these threads popping up. Many players prefer easy dungeons they can fly through, especially when running the random daily can be seen as a chore. No one wants to spend an hour on a chore.

Regardless of how we feel about it I think we can all agree that this is an issue that needs addressed.

Well of course they prefer the easiest dungeons when all they want is the daily reward. That is why before the fix a group would join random queue then port to Fungal Grotto 1. Doing that used to still give credit for the random. It really bit when a player would queue for something specific then the other three would immediately port to the easier dungeon for the quick reward.
If the reward is all you want yeah you want it quick as possible. The reward is for joining and finishing a random dungeon and to be fair to players that are doing specific dungeons no matter the reason that random queue must include all dungeons. This is a game. If something feels like a chore don't do it. If you decide to do something that isn't fun for you in a game that is on you the player and not the fault of the game.

kargen27

softyoung wrote: »

I simply think the core problem is the long queue times for DPS roles. Perhaps immediately entering CoA2 is a better experience than waiting 20 minutes for FG1 (though I prefer to immediately enter FG1 lol).

It's a loose idea, but for example, how about sending 4 DPS players who have been waiting for over 10(or whatever) minutes to a non-DLC dungeon?

Several people have suggested letting players queue for a non-traditional group if they want. So you may get four DPS or three tanks and a healer. It would have to include all the dungeons though and not just base game. The queue is still there to help players fill groups for specific dungeons and that includes the DLC dungeons.