The Crown Store has reached critical levels of immersion breakage

cyclonus11

The main thing I'd like to see taken out of future mounts are the sudden loud explosion sounds when some of them are summoned. I don't need the snot scared out of me randomly while standing at a wayshrine.

Dino-Jr

I think even if being fun and quirky like sheograth was the goal it would be anchored in something interesting and thematic but still lore related. If you see sheograths representation in this game and other scrolls games it takes something real and twists it.

Most of the stuff im concerned about isnt remotely in that category.

Sheograth is silly but still tends to work within the confines of world building or adds to it or subverts expectations in clever ways

Generic mounts stuffed with special effects arent that. If it doesnt contribute to or add to new or existing world building just dial it back slightly. Not even suggesting no brightness at all just use it sparingly. Curate tastes that fit the game world, dont chase tastes based on expectations players have of other games.

One of the things i have always been impressed with in esos visuals is the use of color. The bright blue water in cold harbor being one of the first examples the player encounters. It fits its not outrageous and not overly done. It also made immediately clear though "this version of Elder Scrolls is going to be more colorful" right away.

The coral bear was a good example of something that made sense and was colorful. It literally looks organic and from a part of the game world. The trail of blue lights behind it not so much....went a bit to far there despite a really cool creative mount at its core.

The apohyrca horse mount was excellent! Has a bit of color to it, feels drawn directly from the story. Its entire body isnt bright neon green with no form or function or organic quality to it. Plus it fits the world.


The shardborn stuff is semi flashy but not overly so, looks cool, and fits the mirrormor story line being explored.

If something adds to or draws from the world building we will be more likely to welcome it. Even better if its primarily focused on representing an elder scrolls culture and history it will be celebrated.

Less traditional creative stuff is cool to. Its possible if you made a mount taken from a new interpretation of the painted quest level in oblivion that we would enjoy it and accept it despite it not looking fully real. It would draw from or add to the world rather than taking away from it with the same generic over used neon color set any # of less rich or interesting video game settings copy paste to fuel their micro transactions.

Add a quest to ESO that leans into that and you could get away with adding stuff that is your version of this style.


End of the day I want more of the things I see every day in towns and cities in ESO to feel like they have some history or explanation to them.

Eclipse318

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The question isn't meant to mean we have lost our way. It is only to signal this: Some have expressed frustration with cosmetic direction and saying years prior have been better and more grounded. It is helpful to have examples to specifically point to the team and say, "some folks are frustrated with some of the flashier cosmetics and would want something like (Insert Example). In future planning, can we have more thought into some less flashy, more grounded content?"

I'm a bit confused by the question. You have beautiful legacy hero art of many armor styles and outfits, some of it posted in this discussion. Could you not reference that...? Perhaps making legacy armor and costumes less "muddy" by adding detail and making dyes show up better on them? More outfits and costumes that are regular clothing?

As others have said, the ability to turn down or off the utter ridiculousness would be helpful. Please let us mute exploding portals and hide swirling neon light shows and polymorphs and pets in towns? Please give us more control over our gaming experience?

I completely understand there's a large percentage of players who do want the Electric Explosion Experience everywhere they go, but there's also a large percentage who want to feel immersed in the world of Tamriel without skeleton/molag bal polymorphs and daedric pets/mounts/stuff everywhere we go. I know that's a very long road fix, so I hope it's being considered. Thanks.

NoticeMeArkay

Here are my 2 cents using the newly introduced recall animations as an example:

The sound and visuals of the recall below are entirely too much. Ear-shredding and hard on the eyes.
I don't understand, why you'd choose a shrunken down dolmen with it's original announcement audio file for a portal animation. The only amusing thing about it for me is how it tickles other players Alik'r-PTSD left and right.

"Dark Anchors, also known as Dolmens, are enormous inter-planar hooks sent to Tamriel by Molag Bal from his realm of Coldharbour. The hooks are immense magical constructs, designed to break the boundaries between Oblivion and Mundus; they hook into the ground and the great chains attempt to pull Nirn into Coldharbour. The Anchors are visible from large distances and they affect the environment around them, displacing local weather for a portion of Coldharbour's dark and violent weather."

Turning a world event into a simple player animation makes it non-threatening.



Meanwhile a recall like this one sparks great joy as it doesn't violate my eardrums and feels natural to it's surroundings. It's visuals can also easily be connected to different player figure stereotypes such as druids, hedgemages and alike.
This enables a players creativity. Not a bloody dolmen.:


The middle ground for me, as the animation is still fantastical in it's own way while still matching the visual identity of a portal spell and bonus points because it doesn't force me into using hearing aids. It's a classic portal. Am looking forward for the apocryphal portal to make it's appearance because that one would make just as much sense.

PrayingSeraph

As much as I personally dont like the dancer/dancing personality(something about it irks me, not sure why), I dont think ESO has done anything truly immersion breaking. Everything in the store is set within the Elder Scrolls universe. We dont get any other non TES licensed things, which is good.

Personally, and I know im in a minority, I love the Symphony of Blades mount. I mean, its based of the Symphony of Blades boss, one of the coolest looking bosses we have in a dungeon.

If you dont like the more flashy things, just pretend they are not there. As I do when I see other players with rediculous character names.

runa_gate

I couldn't disagree more. So many people begged for more diverse cosmetics and we got it. People like to express themselves and it's a fantasy world full of magic. Learn to live with others in an MMO instead of being a Comic Book Guy and constantly writing multipage word salad about how your vision for how things ought to be is the correct one.

SilverBride

Why should exploding loud and bright mounts and recalls take priority over not wanting to be subjected to painful bursts?

Elvenheart

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I remember back in 2014 era asking to be able to hide the hideous vamp skins, but that would be lore breaking. "how would players know you are a vampire in pvp to be able to counter you?" Meanwhile you could just slot a helmet anyways so it was pointless.

I would have(and still would) pay for a normal and vamp stage skin pack. Some people even prefer the vamp earlier stages. (not to begin the rant about how feeding makes your vamp look worse when it should actually make you look better) >>(see latest vamp thread for combat rants about vamp stages)

I’ve begged for this since Day One. 🧛‍♂️

Araneae6537

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

When you ask, "Is there a style or kind of cosmetic we have made in the past that you would like us to lean more into?" to me, that signals something I've been feeling for the past year or two: that the team might be lost when it comes to creative direction, especially regarding cosmetics.

It gives the impression that decisions are being driven more by monetization than by a clear, passionate vision for what Elder Scrolls is and that’s deeply concerning.

The question isn't meant to mean we have lost our way. It is only to signal this: Some have expressed frustration with cosmetic direction and saying years prior have been better and more grounded. It is helpful to have examples to specifically point to the team and say, "some folks are frustrated with some of the flashier cosmetics and would want something like (Insert Example). In future planning, can we have more thought into some less flashy, more grounded content?"

It's the info I need to do my job effectively. The team has a plan and is carrying it forth. Everyone in this thread I think wants player feedback to have an impact in decision making. So getting that info as early as possible is the only way to make that happen.

If you're looking for specific costumes. I'd like to see more simple racial costumes that don't seem armored. Costumes are really the only way we can wear regular clothing.

Also, it's been a request for many years now that the justice clothing be added to the style page system. It's clogging up inventories to use them and I don't think it's fair that only these clothes are excluded.

YES! More costumes and styles (there’s even a woefully under utilized clothing category) would be FANTASTIC! Sure, I want some of my characters in armor, but some wear other types of clothing like most characters in the world. There have been some signature styles and a few light armor (such as the Sunspire light motif) that work really well for that, but I’d love to see more, especially racially or regionally themed. I love costumes too, but styles ideally allow for greater customization!

colossalvoids

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

And it’s not just about cosmetics. The introduction of subclass systems has only made it clearer that something is off at the core of ESO. The distinct identity that once defined each class has been diluted to the point where it no longer feels like Elder Scrolls game. That sense of immersion and uniqueness is fading. Has the team given up on preserving that identity? Has the creative drive been lost? Because right now, it feels like the soul of ESO is slipping away and many longtime players feel the same.

Subclassing is Elder Scrolls at its roots. Distinct classes are not an Elder Scrolls staple and was simply a byproduct of making an MMO. You could pick classes and types of characters but you weren't bound to those decisions and can learn anything you want in the single player games

That's an opinion, not a fact to correct someone about. It might sound legit on a surface but if you're honestly comparing distributing skill lines designed specifically to fit a specific class with having magic schools and hand picking your skills etc. it feels disingenuous at best as it's not even close to many of us, you can read the feedback freely on the forums here, it's not that muddy or two sided overall.

It might have sparked some initial interest but novelty fades away quickly leaving the feedback you're reading in it's place.

spartaxoxo

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

And it’s not just about cosmetics. The introduction of subclass systems has only made it clearer that something is off at the core of ESO. The distinct identity that once defined each class has been diluted to the point where it no longer feels like Elder Scrolls game. That sense of immersion and uniqueness is fading. Has the team given up on preserving that identity? Has the creative drive been lost? Because right now, it feels like the soul of ESO is slipping away and many longtime players feel the same.

Subclassing is Elder Scrolls at its roots. Distinct classes are not an Elder Scrolls staple and was simply a byproduct of making an MMO. You could pick classes and types of characters but you weren't bound to those decisions and can learn anything you want in the single player games

That's an opinion, not a fact to correct someone about. It might sound legit on a surface but if you're honestly comparing distributing skill lines designed specifically to fit a specific class with having magic schools and hand picking your skills etc. it feels disingenuous at best as it's not even close to many of us, you can read the feedback freely on the forums here, it's not that muddy or two sided overall.

It might have sparked some initial interest but novelty fades away quickly leaving the feedback you're reading in it's place.

Subclassing is objectively closer to how the single player games work than hard classes.

I get why it made this game feel worse because this game has hard classes for 10 years and then they changed it to be closer to the single player games. And they did so haphazardly that the pure classes don't feel as good to play. There is a lot of very valid negative feedback about subclassing.

But to say that it's not lore friendly to the Elder Scrolls series is just not accurate. The Elder Scrolls as a franchise predates this game and has been around for a long time. And it is famous for its build freedom and NOT locking you into classes. I actually remember it being a bit controversial that this one did at first although that's obviously not considered weird anymore and hasn't been for a long time.

colossalvoids

spartaxoxo wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

And it’s not just about cosmetics. The introduction of subclass systems has only made it clearer that something is off at the core of ESO. The distinct identity that once defined each class has been diluted to the point where it no longer feels like Elder Scrolls game. That sense of immersion and uniqueness is fading. Has the team given up on preserving that identity? Has the creative drive been lost? Because right now, it feels like the soul of ESO is slipping away and many longtime players feel the same.

Subclassing is Elder Scrolls at its roots. Distinct classes are not an Elder Scrolls staple and was simply a byproduct of making an MMO. You could pick classes and types of characters but you weren't bound to those decisions and can learn anything you want in the single player games

That's an opinion, not a fact to correct someone about. It might sound legit on a surface but if you're honestly comparing distributing skill lines designed specifically to fit a specific class with having magic schools and hand picking your skills etc. it feels disingenuous at best as it's not even close to many of us, you can read the feedback freely on the forums here, it's not that muddy or two sided overall.

It might have sparked some initial interest but novelty fades away quickly leaving the feedback you're reading in it's place.

Subclassing is objectively closer to how the single player games work than hard classes.

I get why it made this game feel worse because this game has hard classes for 10 years and then they changed it to be closer to the single player games. And they did so haphazardly that the pure classes don't feel as good to play. There a lot of very valid negative feedback about subclassing.

But to say that it's not lore friendly to the Elder Scrolls series is just not accurate. The Elder Scrolls as a franchise predates this game and has been around for a long time. And it is famous for its build freedom and NOT locking you into classes. I actually remember it being a bit controversial that this one did at first although that's obviously not considered weird anymore and hasn't been for a long time.

Yet again, the "technically it is closer" thing is fine for the corporation, not the players who expect some design direction and cohesion at the very least. It's the same logic if they'll slash the skill lines in halves (if those weren't 5 skills) and say that it's double as Elder Scrolls'y now.

They could have potentially done this "right" assembling the skills into schools, stripping all flavour text, redo previous lore on having no distinct schools yet in the timeline, redo most animations and art but we got what we've got - nothing new, same class aesthetic repackaged as a purely gameplay feature which makes barely any sense in the context of the game we had. Which worked against the class system of the game we're playing and TES class fantasy overall, which was in the series from the very first entry. An Emperor's Blade is a Blade, not a Meridian cultist having side pact with Mora, people who picked Barbarian did played as a Barbarian, etc. sure there was a choice to diverge from it but the only class-less tes we had was Skyrim, which still getting flack for it, people do enjoy restrictions that enhance the experience and flesh out some niche fantasies. Some might prefer a skill salad but that's goes for the same stealth archers, going outside of the TES and focusing purely on gaming and min-maxing, not the setting.

Vrelanier

Personally I really like the big buff dark grey/black 2018 edgelords, in game (and irl!) so I really wouldn't mind if everyone looked like that, but I like having options more. I like being able to choose black, so ofc I want everyone to get to choose the colours they like, too.

But I would like to be able to turn off the flashy and loud non-threat effects.

They make me think someone's beating the crap out of my character. Like I can't be at peace, when I'm in game. There's no downtime, kinda, because they trigger the combat alarms in my brains. It's tiring. I don't need everything to be toned down to Skyrim levels, I just need to feel like I won't be under attack in "safe" places, like wayshrines and cities, just because someone is mounting up.

I also don't like the dancer personality some people mentioned. The carnival stuff is pretty, though I think it could've been a bit more Argonian to make it a bit more TES type thing. I think it would've suited those guys the best, they have the feathers and the cool music already (i might be completely wrong lore wise, but that's what I remember about Murkmire). But the personality is just as annoying as watching twitchy people irl. It wouldn't even be saved by those super cool dark grey/black 2018 edgelord outfits that I love. Although I wouldn't mind an occasional dance by someone wearing them.

whitecrow

It's a shame because I really liked the emote dances for that personality, but the idle animation is just so bad. No one would be like that all the time unless s/he was intoxicated. I didn't get it, because of the idle.

AzuraFan

I don't mind the flash and the big animations. It contributes to making the world feel lively.

There are things that other players do in the game that irritate me (for example, casting stuff on me in towns), and there are personalities, skins, and cosmetics that have me wondering why anyone would buy them. Every time I see them, I think, "Oh, gawd, what were they thinking when they bought that, can't they see how awful it is?" And they're not flashy in any way. But I'm not on the forums demanding that I not be submitted to the horror of seeing that specific personality/cosmetic/skin.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. We all have different tastes. In an MMO, you have to accept that people will like and use and do things you don't like.

I'd hate to see everything become muted and boring to pacify a subset of the playerbase that can't live and let live. If you want this game to stay alive, then ZOS needs to put stuff into the crown store that sells. If flash sells, so be it.

BXR_Lonestar

ArchMikem wrote: »

It's of my unprofessional opinion that the Crown Store cosmetics have begun to reach critical levels of immersion breakage.

I ran into a dancing Molag Bal, in the middle of town.

<edited title to better fit feedback>

Idky that bothers you. If I saw a dancing Molag Bol, I'd be cracking up

SilverBride

Molag Bol was the first big bad guy. Now he is reduced to dancing in town like some kind of clown, and having his dark anchors used by his enemies as ways to port around the world.

Things like this should never happen. It is completely immersion and lore breaking.

JemadarofCaerSalis

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

It's of my unprofessional opinion that the Crown Store cosmetics have begun to reach critical levels of immersion breakage.

I ran into a dancing Molag Bal, in the middle of town.

<edited title to better fit feedback>

Idky that bothers you. If I saw a dancing Molag Bol, I'd be cracking up

Yeah, while I can see why it might be a bit immersion breaking to see several molag bals, people have been clowning on bad guys for ages. Someone pointed out above Charlie Chaplin clowning the 'Great Dictator', and I am sure it goes further back than that.

So I can easily see someone 'clowning' on Molag Bal, as a way to thumb their noses at the prince. We even have a festival dedicated to clowning on the three leaders of the alliance, so again, why wouldn't you see people clowning on bad guys or other people who are famous?

I do wish that there were ways to prevent some of the sound effects and visuals from blasting off right next to you, including from spells you cast yourself or a follower casts on you (during West Weald, I wanted to do away with the Tribune. If I recall, everytime she followed me, I kept glowing yellow and it made it hard to see anything at the bottom of the screen.)

NotaDaedraWorshipper

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The question isn't meant to mean we have lost our way. It is only to signal this: Some have expressed frustration with cosmetic direction and saying years prior have been better and more grounded. It is helpful to have examples to specifically point to the team and say, "some folks are frustrated with some of the flashier cosmetics and would want something like (Insert Example). In future planning, can we have more thought into some less flashy, more grounded content?"

It's the info I need to do my job effectively. The team has a plan and is carrying it forth. Everyone in this thread I think wants player feedback to have an impact in decision making. So getting that info as early as possible is the only way to make that happen.

Many players likely think you have lost your way, because we often have for many years said the same things over and over again, given plenty of examples but it seems to fall on deaf ears so it ends with we us stopping give examples and only vent out our frustration. People get tired of repeating themselves.

It's like the never ending player desire for less hip and crotch flaps or random pieces of metal on clothes, yet those keep coming.

Or the request for different daedra forms for sorcerer pets, such as fire atronachs, banekin, dremora, and all manner of daedra, as well as different animals for wardens, which is now clearly possible with the skillstyles. But what we get are just expensiver crown recolours.

Or some attention to werewolves, to give them different werebeast forms or just even different fur colours.

Or more lore fitting and practical skins, like people have wanted a skin for vampires that only hides their vampirism without badly photoshopped flowers and whatnot. Like don't even need to stop there, could have skins for different strains of vampirism. Which would also be nice for npcs too so all of these vampires who are clearly from different strains don't look to be from the same one. Don't have to stop at vampires either, like we have access to all manner of weird skins, but not a Briarheart skin?

More lore fitting cosmetics in general that are based on lore and the setting's style and theme, instead of making random things and then give them some thrown together description to justify their existence. It's like when you make a character for tabletop or some story. You make them according to the setting and fit into it, not make the setting bend and fit to them.
After all these years it baffles me how much feel and look like random mmo cosmetics while we are missing existing things both from visuals of the game but also lore. Like I can wear what looks like bad photoshop of flowers, butterflies, weird stained glass windows as body markings, but not tattoos and body markings similar to those seen in Morrowind. My nibenese don't have gaudy tattoos and magic runes. In fact, few markings actually look like tattoos. There's too bold, thick and dark lines.
I can make myself look like Molag Bal, which is such a mind boggling polymorph in the setting. It being an illusion doesn't make it better, because who would make themselves look like Bal especially during this time period? It is such awful taste. Guards and npcs should react!
Then we have polymorphs that makes us look like things that are very niche and are barely shown in the game.
But we can't look like hagravens, nereirds, fauns, and other more common creatures. At least minotaur and lich was added after a long time.

Don't get me started on how much I loathe many of the recall and resource harvesting customisations. Many are so loud and flashy they are a big cause of my headaches and eye pain. Here again we see the tacky use of something that feels so bad for setting, such as the Molag Bal polymorph, in the form of the dolmen. Ah yes, lets just teleport away using this tool of a daedric prince that has caused and is still causing so much destruction, death and horrors. Or it's a giant explosion of bright light and noise.
But we can't have a recall that looks like the typical portal we see so many npcs use? Maybe a simple one that is just stepping into and vanishing into shadows.

Then we have mounts... The never ending FX effects, which again why do they need to explode into existence, and bizarre looks that are getting more and more extreme on the same old skeleton. Even a lot of the supposed more grounded mounts are getting strange currenly, like the current crate season nix-ox which someone dipped into a tub of gold paint. The colours have a tendency to be way more saturated than the enviroment.
Something I'd love, would be if ZOS put in the effort and try make a new horse model that looks a bit more like a horse. I want more horses, which is the most used mount in Tamriel, and a new good base would go a long way.
A long time ago a friend once showed me the mounts of Lord of the Rings Online, which despite being quite old, has very nice mounts, especially horses which were the majority of the mounts. What really grabbed my attention, was that most of the mounts are normal looking houses, and the creativity and difference is done through various coats, some slight breed differences, but mainly very varying tack. So much varied and well done tack. Simple ones, armoured ones, ones for specific occupations and themes, ones in between etc. All with different styles that fit a culture, race, faction, some order etc. LOTRO mounts if anyone is curious.

Meanwhile the majority of ESO's mounts that are not apex ones all use the same boring tack in just different colours. Where are guars with tacks themed after each of the dunmer Great Houses and some argonian styles? Breton knights heavily armoured horses with heraldries (Was baffling High Isle didn't have a jousting themed horse) and fancy noble show horses from the finest Cheydinhall stable saved from the war. A redguard trader's camel and the armoured ones their guards would use etc.

One of favourite mounts are the Baandari apex mounts, just because they are normal looking animals with interesting and well done tack. I could be without the constant silly holding of the compass, though.

Thanks for reading my TED talk. Have a potato 🥔

spartaxoxo

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Yeah, while I can see why it might be a bit immersion breaking to see several molag bals, people have been clowning on bad guys for ages. Someone pointed out above Charlie Chaplin clowning the 'Great Dictator', and I am sure it goes further back than that.

Yup. Old plays would do stuff like satirize wars or whatever. But I'm not a historian so IDK how extensive.

The Molag Bal polymorph is an illusion. It's not the real Bal. It doesn't even have the same model.

SilverBride

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I can see why it might be a bit immersion breaking to see several molag bals, people have been clowning on bad guys for ages. Someone pointed out above Charlie Chaplin clowning the 'Great Dictator', and I am sure it goes further back than that.

Charlie Chaplain was a real world performer 100 years ago. Anything he did is not relevant to what happens in a game world today.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

We even have a festival dedicated to clowning on the three leaders of the alliance...

Clowning around at our own leaders isn't the same as demeaning the first big bad guy in the game, and reducing him to a joke.

emilyhyoyeon

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The question isn't meant to mean we have lost our way. It is only to signal this: Some have expressed frustration with cosmetic direction and saying years prior have been better and more grounded. It is helpful to have examples to specifically point to the team and say, "some folks are frustrated with some of the flashier cosmetics and would want something like (Insert Example). In future planning, can we have more thought into some less flashy, more grounded content?"

It's the info I need to do my job effectively. The team has a plan and is carrying it forth. Everyone in this thread I think wants player feedback to have an impact in decision making. So getting that info as early as possible is the only way to make that happen.

What really grabbed my attention, was that most of the mounts are normal looking houses, and the creativity and difference is done through various coats, some slight breed differences, but mainly very varying tack. So much varied and well done tack. Simple ones, armoured ones, ones for specific occupations and themes, ones in between etc. All with different styles that fit a culture, race, faction, some order etc. LOTRO mounts if anyone is curious.

Meanwhile the majority of ESO's mounts that are not apex ones all use the same boring tack in just different colours. Where are guars with tacks themed after each of the dunmer Great Houses and some argonian styles? Breton knights heavily armoured horses with heraldries (Was baffling High Isle didn't have a jousting themed horse) and fancy noble show horses from the finest Cheydinhall stable saved from the war. A redguard trader's camel and the armoured ones their guards would use etc.

100% with you on everything you said here, but I want to highlight this part specifically about the mount tack. That's what I like to see with new mounts. The Baandari apex mounts are also in my top favorites for that reason, glowing compass aside.

I've used the White Gold horse on my main for forever because it hits so nicely on the mark for what I'm looking for. A simply colored horse (normal palomino coat type) with nicely adorned tack.
But: another reason I'm bringing up this mount in particular is regarding another point you brought up, which is mounts sometimes not matching the coloring of the rest of the world, like the overly saturated nix ox. The White Gold horse suffers from this overly saturated, smooth look that makes it way more reminiscent of a Barbie toy than it has to be.

tomofhyrule

One other thing I notice is that a lot of the people who are most “[THING] BREAKS THE LOOOOOORE!!!!” also are very flexible with the lore themselves, at least when it suits them.

Example: Bards in the Elder Scrolls series are literally just musicians. That’s it. No “I’m bringing my lute into battle!” no “I cast Vicious Mockery to break the enemy’s defenses!” no “My lyre was blessed by Kynareth and heals for 2d12 on any allies within 18m!”
And yet, I know a lot of people going on about wanting the purest of pure pre-ESO lore experiences would jump on a Bard line straight out of D&D so fast. They wouldn’t come in with a “well ackshually the only music-as-magic in the TES series is Dwemer Tonal Architecture, considering the one thaumavocalist quest in Amenos was created for ESO and even the vast majority of Dro-m’Athra and Cantor lore was from ESO”

…not that I’m arguing against an Artificer class with a Tonal Magic line. Because that would be the best thing ever. I actually want that even more than I want my brown werebear model replacement for the werewolf.

JemadarofCaerSalis

SilverBride wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I can see why it might be a bit immersion breaking to see several molag bals, people have been clowning on bad guys for ages. Someone pointed out above Charlie Chaplin clowning the 'Great Dictator', and I am sure it goes further back than that.

Charlie Chaplain was a real world performer 100 years ago. Anything he did is not relevant to what happens in a game world today.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

We even have a festival dedicated to clowning on the three leaders of the alliance...

Clowning around at our own leaders isn't the same as demeaning the first big bad guy in the game, and reducing him to a joke.

Why not? To reduce fear of something, you make it a joke? So, if you want to reduce people's fear of Molag Bal, you make him a joke. It honestly makes MORE sense to me to clown on a bad guy, to make him seem ridiculous and weak, than it does to clown upon a leader you respect (though I can understand why they would clown on the leaders, because it is all a bit of fun).

Also, things that happen in the real world are very relevant to a game world today, because that game world doesn't exist in a vacuum. Game lore often draws on parallels to aspects of the real world all the time, even down to scenery and cultures.

Charlie Chaplin was a performer, this game has performers, so why wouldn't performers act like real world performers? There are people who write plays, the real world has people who write plays. Actors who play those roles.

Again, game lore, and elder scrolls lore in particular, does not exist in a vacuum. It can, and often does, draw on real world symbolisms and historical events and just draws on the real world itself, for inspiration.

JemadarofCaerSalis

Also, re the mounts thing.

I would LOOOVE more horse mounts, varied coat colors (There are SO many different coat colors in real life), with basic tack (so many of the mounts have tack that covers them nearly entirely, or other aspects that make them less appealing to me). I would also love it if these were put in game for in game gold.

Give each region its own mount that can be bought for gold, maybe even two or three! (since they would really just need to be recolors of each other, instead of new meshes/skeletons). Show off what each region prizes in mounts. Skryim mounts could be more hardy pony like breeds, Vvardenfall could have nix oxes, Alik'r could have camels or lighter more endurance oriented mounts.

Maybe High Isle and the bretons favor more heavy set breeds like drafts. What would Altmer mounts look like. Bosmer?

Also, get creative with tack! (though I would like the mounts bought for gold to have more simple tack to show off the actual colors of the steed and markings)

Basically, give us more lore friendly looks at what each region and each people prize in a mount and how they would decorate the tack.

CameraBeardThePirate

If I can't buff up to check my fully buffed stats while in town as a Necro without getting a bounty, people should get a bounty for dressing up as a mass-murdering demon god from Oblivion that is currently waging war on the world.

SilverBride

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

To reduce fear of something, you make it a joke?

We don't have to reduce our fear of something evil. Rather, if something is seen as a threat we fight it, and we continue to fight it as long as it's a threat.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Charlie Chaplin was a performer, this game has performers, so why wouldn't performers act like real world performers? There are people who write plays, the real world has people who write plays. Actors who play those roles.

Making a player look like Molag Bol and dancing around in town is not an actor playing a role.

Prophet_of_Malacath

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

All that being said, happy to take any additional feedback to the team for their consideration

Cosmetics grounded in the setting are great.

Great:
We see Durzog tamers (Arushna, Nikolvara, multiple goblin clans). We see tame guar, Necrom guards on guar, ambient dialogue about guar burials. We see Kagouti, Nix Oxen, even the little vvardvark babies convinced me the grown mounts make sense. I have several of these mounts & will keep buying more of those variants.

I'd buy an Echatere mount - we see them used by merchants as pack animals, herded by Clan Shatul, in the wild, etc. I'd buy a silt strider pack companion after seeing NPC merchants & Ashlanders traveling with them.

Gloomspore Mounts (in Blackreach)? Vampire thrall skins? Lamp Knight armor? What they all have in common is that they have in-game representation and thus players can form attachments to some or come up with cohesive reasons to have one. One group of friends all got Gloomspore mounts after an adventure in Blackreach, figuring we already had a mycoturge in the guild & OOC it'd be our little memory of the expedition.



Not Great?
The "Ice Wolf" claims Nords of Hjaalmarch ride them yet no one in Morthal does - they only have 4 horses in their stables.

The "Black Bear" claims warriors use them as mounts in northern High Rock & Skyim - but Shornhelm's stables are all horses.

These aren't even obviously glowy mounts - an overwhelming amount of the time, humans either (1) don't use mounts or (2) only have horses. I feel like I'm being pranked each time a mount claims to be used by humans & yet never appear unless its a horse.

No two elven races pretend to be homogenous, yet humans all too often seem to settle for "normalcy". Instead of distinct civilizations with their own legends & creatures & magic, it feels like so many glowing mounts exist because there's no "need" to connect humans to their myths.

Morrowind has a handful of unique fauna it can recolor & sell to me - but I'd be livid if I got a "free magma horse from Red Mountain!" - I'd buy an Echatere from Wrothgar immediately, no interest in "ice camels from Orsinium!" - I'd buy a camel or duneripper from Hammerfell, but don't want to see a "ancient Yokudan sand bear!"

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Wormmouth are native to Hammerfell & their skeleton might resemble a Kagouti - I feel that's a more natural fit for an exotic mount than, say, a glowy 4-armed pony-spirit.

One of my pet peeves is owning the Nenalata Ayleid Bear - they had Guar, Camel, Wolves, Horses, etc? How did these animals outlive their extinct masters? No previous lore suggesting a magic zoo, no in-game representation - every time I see the bear in my collections, I quit thinking of ESO & see Narnia. It doesn't feel a part of the setting.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Is there a style or kind of cosmetic we have made in the past that you would like us to lean more into?

Bugs. Cosmetics don't have to be mundane - but using local materials (chaurus, echatere, duneripper, armored mites, parrapton, assassin beetles, shalks, elytra, glyptodons, hoarvor.... are all more "real" than a thunder pony).

Morrowind's has Dreugh, Bonemold, Morag Tong, Ashlander - the https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Roksa_the_Warped_Style is great stuff.

But they're not the only culture with giant bugs. Bosmer, Argonian, Redguard also have giant shalk, wasps, hoarvor, giant scorpions and snakes. Bretons have a couple giant spider bosses. The Grim Harlequin crates gave us Falmer "Chitinous" style some years back. But imagine:

• Maybe Nords in Blackreach adapting local materials (I love how Blackreach Vanguard mixes chitin, metal, leather and fur).
• Maybe Dunmer artisans adapt their techniques to chaurus shells?
• Maybe deep-cave dwelling Wrothgarian Orcs crafting a lamellar chaurus plate?
• Maybe some kind of "Falmer Witch" that's less half-naked barbarian & more robes?

I'd argue some of the consistently strongest Crown Crate products are the styles & weapons - I love seeing Lamp Knight on NPCs, I'd love to see Betnikh orcs wearing Seamount style, etc.

The strongest crate items are always the ones one would be willing to use on an NPC in-game. If something is too zany for that low bar, then it's going to be distracting. Conversely, actually putting some models into the game would help make more sense of them.

spartaxoxo

-snipped for brevity-

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I can see why it might be a bit immersion breaking to see several molag bals, people have been clowning on bad guys for ages. Someone pointed out above Charlie Chaplin clowning the 'Great Dictator', and I am sure it goes further back than that.

Jesters mocking royalty wasn't just a thing but an important way for royals to hear criticism of their rule. So Jester's Festival doesn't make any less sense. But other than that minor quibble, I agree with this 100%.

I think it is good that this game allows players to respond to the game world as they see fit. IRL there are a wide variety of responses to threats. And that includes open mockery. I don't want to get into politics but I have noticed that one of the responses to fear of the future is joking and mocking impressions of leadership. The worse the threat, the more carthasis in mockery and the more extreme the mockery gets.

This thread also inspired me to google real world examples of people mocking leaders in ancient times. And Socrates being mocked in a play with absurd humor by Aristophanes was cited as a contributing factor to his execution later by Plato.

The play also, however, remains notorious for its caricature of Socrates, and is cited by Plato in the Apology as a contributing factor to the philosopher's trial and execution.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clouds

In a world with illusion magic that allows mages to appear however they please, it makes perfect sense some would choose to bolster the morale of their fellow people by mocking the Daedric princes. Or even to use it to examine them philosophically through humor.

ETA
Obviously, not all players using these polymorphs would view as their character making fun of Molag Bal. Some may just want to look like him because they think it's cool or funny and aren't caring about the lore at all. But in-universe, it is only lore breaking if your own personal lore is it wouldn't happen. And ZOS shouldn't be expected to cater to only one type of player's idea of immersion and lore accuracy. Especially not in a franchise like the Elder Scrolls, which has always rejected the idea of strict canon.

BagOfBadgers

SilverBride wrote: »

Molag Bol was the first big bad guy. Now he is reduced to dancing in town like some kind of clown, and having his dark anchors used by his enemies as ways to port around the world.

Things like this should never happen. It is completely immersion and lore breaking.

I've gotten my Soul back 30+ times from kicking his backside (EU/NA PC). So having him as an “Pet” seems reasonable to me, as it's my Toons and their own lore. If that makes sense?