The Crown Store has reached critical levels of immersion breakage

LunaFlora

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

Is there ever going to be an option to shut off the annoying visual clutter, lightshows, and explosion noises on our end?

Honestly, I just want to be able to turn off the flickering lightning! Sure, I find the meteoric tornado mounts obnoxious but they are there and gone. While rain is atmospheric, flickering lights are a migraine trigger for me so I have to change characters or zones depending on how sensitive I am that day.

me too. that would make the game more accessible

lostineternity

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all,
However, the item selections are meant to give you the player tools to be creative and have fun.

Wrong, they are intended for sale and profit; the more strange the item, the more attention it will attract, the more money it will bring. Profit, above all, and immersiveness and quality, it has always been and always will be. And even better when such items are also FOMO

Faulgor

I'm not sure immersion is the right word - most of the flashy stuff we are talking about can be reasonably justified to exist within the lore of The Elder Scrolls. A case can be made though that the high incidence of these, by themselves justifiable cosmetics such as Molag Bal illusions, becomes a problem in itself. That's somewhat an emergent problem caused by the community, not ZOS. I myself only use grounded cosmetics, which there are more than enough to chose from (although I've been disappointed with the quality, especially texture quality of new styles and outfits as of late).

But the word I'd rather use is tone. All these ubiquitous carnevalesque (even before the carneval crates) cosmetics, mounts, and effects inevitably change the tone of the game in a way that influences how every other content around it is perceived as well.

When all you see is jesters, everything seems like a joke.

BetweenMidgets

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

However, the item selections are meant to give you the player tools to be creative and have fun. Sometimes player choice will lead to a dancing Molag Bal, as jarring as that can be. But between the Crown Store items, in-game items and in-game event items, there are plenty of choices to make a more grounded experience for yourself and for others if they so choose. Some may go down the route of Sheogorath for a more maddening experience, but they should have the option to do so as well.

We hear what you're saying, Kevin, but ZoS failing to curate their brand isn't a matter of "it is someone else's fantasy" isn't on the players, but an issue only ZoS can address.

If we look at older radiant apex mounts, or even legendary, they were not so over the top. Yes, there was definitely a measure of flashy, but as the person is rendering in and out of distance a world event wasn't happening.

Oftentimes people work best with parameters. To me, the more recent radiant apex mounts feel more like "design us something that will sell" instead of "design us something that belongs in Tamriel that will sell."

Most of us don't fault ZoS as a company needing to make money. But a year or two when it was bragged that ZoS had made 2 billion, and then what we experience in game is degraded quality on all fronts? That feels like something different.

Edits: Shortened Kevin's quote.

Asikoo

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all,

Wanted to follow up here. The goal is always to provided a balance of more grounded yet cool items and more fun/ fantastical items as well.

We have taken note and shared feedback when some items may push that balance a bit far, like our 4-sword horse friend. (I find this mount fun, but totally understand it can be super jarring.)

However, the item selections are meant to give you the player tools to be creative and have fun. Sometimes player choice will lead to a dancing Molag Bal, as jarring as that can be. But between the Crown Store items, in-game items and in-game event items, there are plenty of choices to make a more grounded experience for yourself and for others if they so choose. Some may go down the route of Sheogorath for a more maddening experience, but they should have the option to do so as well.

All that being said, happy to take any additional feedback to the team for their consideration. Is there a style or kind of cosmetic we have made in the past that you would like us to lean more into?

Thanks for any feedback give here. And please be mindful when submitting feedback that you remember community guidelines.

Hey @ZOS_Kevin ,
With all due respect and I truly don’t mean this as any kind of bullying or negative commentary, I just feel the need to be honest here. I apologize in advance if this comes off as too blunt, but I hope you understand the spirit behind it.

When you ask, "Is there a style or kind of cosmetic we have made in the past that you would like us to lean more into?" to me, that signals something I've been feeling for the past year or two: that the team might be lost when it comes to creative direction, especially regarding cosmetics.

It gives the impression that decisions are being driven more by monetization than by a clear, passionate vision for what Elder Scrolls is and that’s deeply concerning.

And it’s not just about cosmetics. The introduction of subclass systems has only made it clearer that something is off at the core of ESO. The distinct identity that once defined each class has been diluted to the point where it no longer feels like Elder Scrolls game. That sense of immersion and uniqueness is fading. Has the team given up on preserving that identity? Has the creative drive been lost? Because right now, it feels like the soul of ESO is slipping away and many longtime players feel the same.

I say this not to tear anything down, but because I care. I want ESO to feel like Elder Scrolls again. I want to believe there’s still a clear, passionate vision guiding its future, not just a roadmap focused on short-term profit.

SilverBride

Asikoo wrote: »

ESO has completely lost all sense of identity, not just with its classes, but with everything in the game.

This is exactly how I have been feeling.

ESO used to have a much more realistic feel than any other game I had ever played, and that was a big plus for me. Now it's looking more like a cartoon and I would love to be able to block all the mounts and skins and personalities etc. that don't fit in the world that was originally created.

I just purchased Solstice a couple of days ago after it went on sale (I wasn't going to pay the full price) and I was struck by how different it feels. While I do enjoy some of the new mechanics in the quests, I just don't feel like I'm in Tamriel any more. I think what is so different for me is the quests don't seem to be based on realistic small towns and farms, or NPCs in distress over a lost loved one, or anything that made me feel like we are in a real world. Instead we are investigating haunted houses and such.

Add all this to subclassing and it's going further and further away from the original game.

It's still something I will play at this point, but I don't recognize it as the same game any more, and I hope it finds it's way back to the Tamriel that it used to be.

spartaxoxo

Asikoo wrote: »

And it’s not just about cosmetics. The introduction of subclass systems has only made it clearer that something is off at the core of ESO. The distinct identity that once defined each class has been diluted to the point where it no longer feels like Elder Scrolls game. That sense of immersion and uniqueness is fading. Has the team given up on preserving that identity? Has the creative drive been lost? Because right now, it feels like the soul of ESO is slipping away and many longtime players feel the same.

Subclassing is Elder Scrolls at its roots. Distinct classes are not an Elder Scrolls staple and was simply a byproduct of making an MMO. You could pick classes and types of characters but you weren't bound to those decisions and can learn anything you want in the single player games

Dino-Jr

@ZOS_Kevin

I think 90% of my concerns with current visual clutter would be solved with the following 3 changes:

1. Option to hide all summons and pets of other players in towns and cities

2. Option to further hide other players combat special effects, status visuals, and AOEs.

3. Option to toggle Arcanist Crux symbols to number symbols above skill bar instead of surrounding the player.

Mounts and polymorphs while immersion breaking in general are tolerable. The above 3 items though are so constantly present that giving those options would meaningfully improve gameplay and make me more invested in the game world without impacting anyone else’s preferences in game.

spartaxoxo

Asikoo wrote: »

But yeah… all of this is just really damn sad and I’m just exhausted and out of motivation to keep explaining why this no longer feels like The Elder Scrolls game.

Subclassing actually caused a spike of interest in ESO when it was released. Those players dropped out in July but they always do this time of year because it's summer and people are enjoying the outdoors.

You also can't compare 2020-2022 because that was the pandemic and every online service experienced a temporary spike because of the global pandemic that they subsequently lost because that was a captive audience.

I'm not saying that players aren't falling off in this game because it's old game that's not releasing as much content as it used to do. But, the argument that subclassing is somehow taking away from a traditional Elder Scrolls experience is simply not the case. Neither did it cause a bunch of people to leave.

ETA

Here's the Steam Chart and you can see it's just slightly down from pre-pandemic interest.

whitecrow

Thankfully I have never seen the swordhorse in the game. I thought it was a myth, like the Jersey Devil or Loch Ness Monster.

Mathius_Mordred

Who uses Steam lol? The vast majority use the included launcher.

spartaxoxo

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

Who uses Steam lol? The vast majority use the included launcher.

Almost nobody so the charts are mostly just good for trends that aren't likely to be platform specific.

theoverseer

darkriketz wrote: »

Which makes me remember that in SWTOR (I barely played it cause I didn't liked the style and I'm not a SW fan anyway, only a prelogy fan), during character creation, some names are forbidden to the players. How many "members of the Great Houses of Morrowind" have I seen while playing ? Telvanni, Hlaalu and Redoran shouldn't be allowed names for played characters.

So...lore-friendly names are immersion-breaking, is that what you're saying? Interesting take. Would they be more or less immersion-breaking than say, for example, Hermione Potter or Thanos_1289? I'm genuinely curious.

Cordially,

Nerys Telvanni

spartaxoxo

darkriketz wrote: »

Which makes me remember that in SWTOR (I barely played it cause I didn't liked the style and I'm not a SW fan anyway, only a prelogy fan), during character creation, some names are forbidden to the players. How many "members of the Great Houses of Morrowind" have I seen while playing ? Telvanni, Hlaalu and Redoran shouldn't be allowed names for played characters.

Not the topic of this thread but I'm curious, what does prelogy fan mean? As in you only like the prequels with Jar Jar?

ZOS_Kevin

Asikoo wrote: »

When you ask, "Is there a style or kind of cosmetic we have made in the past that you would like us to lean more into?" to me, that signals something I've been feeling for the past year or two: that the team might be lost when it comes to creative direction, especially regarding cosmetics.

It gives the impression that decisions are being driven more by monetization than by a clear, passionate vision for what Elder Scrolls is and that’s deeply concerning.

The question isn't meant to mean we have lost our way. It is only to signal this: Some have expressed frustration with cosmetic direction and saying years prior have been better and more grounded. It is helpful to have examples to specifically point to the team and say, "some folks are frustrated with some of the flashier cosmetics and would want something like (Insert Example). In future planning, can we have more thought into some less flashy, more grounded content?"

It's the info I need to do my job effectively. The team has a plan and is carrying it forth. Everyone in this thread I think wants player feedback to have an impact in decision making. So getting that info as early as possible is the only way to make that happen.

haynes.jgrkpreub18_ESO

SilverBride wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

ESO has completely lost all sense of identity, not just with its classes, but with everything in the game.

Add all this to subclassing and it's going further and further away from the original game.

It's still something I will play at this point, but I don't recognize it as the same game any more, and I hope it finds it's way back to the Tamriel that it used to be.

You must not been around at launch. This game barely felt like an Elder Scrolls game at all. Its much better than what it was.

That said, I don't play for Elder Scrolls Lore. I play to have a good time. And ESO achieves that for me.

spartaxoxo

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

When you ask, "Is there a style or kind of cosmetic we have made in the past that you would like us to lean more into?" to me, that signals something I've been feeling for the past year or two: that the team might be lost when it comes to creative direction, especially regarding cosmetics.

It gives the impression that decisions are being driven more by monetization than by a clear, passionate vision for what Elder Scrolls is and that’s deeply concerning.

The question isn't meant to mean we have lost our way. It is only to signal this: Some have expressed frustration with cosmetic direction and saying years prior have been better and more grounded. It is helpful to have examples to specifically point to the team and say, "some folks are frustrated with some of the flashier cosmetics and would want something like (Insert Example). In future planning, can we have more thought into some less flashy, more grounded content?"

It's the info I need to do my job effectively. The team has a plan and is carrying it forth. Everyone in this thread I think wants player feedback to have an impact in decision making. So getting that info as early as possible is the only way to make that happen.

If you're looking for specific costumes. I'd like to see more simple racial costumes that don't seem armored. Costumes are really the only way we can wear regular clothing.

Also, it's been a request for many years now that the justice clothing be added to the style page system. It's clogging up inventories to use them and I don't think it's fair that only these clothes are excluded.

SilverBride

haynes.jgrkpreub18_ESO wrote: »

You must not been around at launch. This game barely felt like an Elder Scrolls game at all.

I was around at launch and before, as I also played in the Beta.

I never expected ESO to play like the single player Elder Scrolls games because ESO is a multiplayer game. I expect it to play like ESO though, and it is moving away from that direction in too many ways.

MincMincMinc

I remember back in 2014 era asking to be able to hide the hideous vamp skins, but that would be lore breaking. "how would players know you are a vampire in pvp to be able to counter you?" Meanwhile you could just slot a helmet anyways so it was pointless.

I would have(and still would) pay for a normal and vamp stage skin pack. Some people even prefer the vamp earlier stages. (not to begin the rant about how feeding makes your vamp look worse when it should actually make you look better) >>(see latest vamp thread for combat rants about vamp stages)

msetten

Regarding outfit styles: I'd like more where the chest piece doesn't have those front flaps. There are a few that don't have them, but most of them have those front flaps.

onyxorb

LunaFlora wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

Is there ever going to be an option to shut off the annoying visual clutter, lightshows, and explosion noises on our end?

Honestly, I just want to be able to turn off the flickering lightning! Sure, I find the meteoric tornado mounts obnoxious but they are there and gone. While rain is atmospheric, flickering lights are a migraine trigger for me so I have to change characters or zones depending on how sensitive I am that day.

me too. that would make the game more accessible

Not only is it more accessible, it's also easier for people with older systems (cough, me).
So having a few additional settings in the Video Settings so that your client has more control over in game visuals might be a nice suggestion to the devs.
So options to disable the display of 'Mount Effects' for instance.

Honestly not sure how we 'properly' make suggestions in this game. I use the 'Feedback' option in game, but no clue if anyone even checks those.

TheRimOfTheSky

Honestly guys the Crown Store realism jumped the shark a while ago. The horse with sword arms is silly but honestly I kinda like it, its absurd in a way that's fun. Maybe its dumb but at least its given an explanation, Daedra can get up to some crazy stuff so I don't really mind, Oblivion is meant to be filled with random things the mortal mind has trouble comprehending. As long as there is some effort to come up with a reasonable explanation for weird cosmetics, I'm all for them

kevkj

If this is the place to leave feedback regarding annoying cosmetics, I have to say I find recall animations to be near the top of the list. The ones that make loud noises or have bright flashes are bad (Mages Guild, Coldharbour, Legionnaires) but the most obnoxious one has to be the Accursed Recall that ends in a large bright OPAQUE flashy orb surrounding the player.

Chili_Pepper

didnt expect such a reaction on my post here, so let me explain.

1) No offense to all that bright visuals. There always two opinions, some players like it, some not.
Just give us opportunity to disable it in game settings, the same way as "turn off additional visual effects" that already done for many years
I have real headache in 5 mins in every big city in game.
Who like it - will see it, who dont like - will enjoy game as it supposed to be an Elder Scrolls game.

2) "we got what we deserve" phrase - i mean every Elder Scrolls player who like its lore, its visual style should "protect" it by express their opinion, that we want to see Tamriel in such way. So if we did it all the way - maybe that thread wont exist at all.
But we prefer to sit silent trying to be tolerant and in result of that inactivity "we got what we deserve" - we got visual style of in-game world that we do not enjoy much. And i hope that players with opposite opinion will support us in realizing that option in game settings to turn off visuals that annoy some players. I do not ask to remove all that cosmetics, let it be, but to that players who want to see it. Thank you. Peace to all!

PS Sorry for my english, its not my native language )

lostineternity

I've been playing other multiplayer games that have settings like "hide non historical cosmetics" and it feels so good, if you want to play COD like lobby with Nicky Minaj and Peter from Family Guy you are welcome, if not play without.

Dino-Jr

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The question isn't meant to mean we have lost our way. It is only to signal this: Some have expressed frustration with cosmetic direction and saying years prior have been better and more grounded. It is helpful to have examples to specifically point to the team and say, "some folks are frustrated with some of the flashier cosmetics and would want something like (Insert Example). In future planning, can we have more thought into some less flashy, more grounded content?"

It's the info I need to do my job effectively. The team has a plan and is carrying it forth. Everyone in this thread I think wants player feedback to have an impact in decision making. So getting that info as early as possible is the only way to make that happen.

I think the #1 thing for me is if the designs are some how based in lore they will end up directionally correct. If they are not clearly aesthetically grounded in any kind of elder scrolls culture its probably not a great fit. Ok to have some creative stuff but thats got to be a secondary objective to "fitting" some established culture or setting in Tameriel. Or a new culture yall are creating (which is awesome by the way) Lots of the stuff from West Weald and Solstice has been great at this. Shardborn, Worm Cult Hunter, Cult of the Worm (blue accents), most recent black and bright red crown store motif...etc.

Updated early zone lore appropriate motifs and mounts would be really cool, theres tons of variations on things that would probably sell great if updated to more recent trends (i.e. smaller hip pieces, fewer or no front/back flaps etc.). New Hlaalu, Redoran, Telvanni armor and mounts there are absurdly limited options from those settings and early zones especially. We have a decent amount of Nord and Wood Elf looking stuff thats good quality. There is a somewhat shocking lack of good armor, motifs, and things from Vvardenfell and Aldmeri somehow that I think is just because it came out a long time ago.

More things that are like this but with the ESO teams take on it.



This stuff would benefit greatly from releasing some new creative variations from your team (with fewer flaps and smaller hip pieces)







Fewer bright neon things. Not everything needs to be muted shades of brown and grey. Some pop as subtle accents works well but entirely ultra bright flashy things sorta clashes with the setting or feel artificial and not part of any character/story from this game (some of the recent armor from solistice was awesome at striking that balance I think).

Not asking for no bright colors at all but toning it down a bit so the game doesnt look & feel like a generic culture-less or lore-less MMO would be good. Bright colros as accents not the "core" of the asthetic is a good goal. Definitely can get goofy and colorful though. Majority of the Indric Mounts are pretty great examples of more brightly colorful stuff that feels lore appropriate without its defining feature simply being the word neon.

Its tough because I am sure the brightest most neon things sell the best but I think you can still release exciting things that arent totally over the top in that category. Giving people a range of options to personalize their look is a good thing but all of the options should prioritize the look & feel being obviously grounded in the lore and the setting in some way.

Below were fantastic recent examples of something fun that do something unique while still looking real.


I think the key for me is that ESO sort of sets itself apart by looking like a more grounded game (by looking like Elder Scrolls). More direct way to say this...if you see something that looks like it was lifted straight out of world of warcraft it probably should be toned down before release.

Islyn

Yudo wrote: »

Anyone remember this?

Personally the dancer personality where people wiggle non stop is kind of odd...like what is wrong with them.

They need to pee.

Islyn

ajkb78 wrote: »

darkriketz wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

It's of my unprofessional opinion that the Crown Store cosmetics have begun to reach critical levels of immersion breakage.

I ran into a dancing Molag Bal, in the middle of town.

How many "members of the Great Houses of Morrowind" have I seen while playing ? Telvanni, Hlaalu and Redoran shouldn't be allowed names for played characters.

Why on earth not? They're perfectly cromulent names for in-world characters to have. Why would it be unreasonable for some little-known, never-going-to-inherit minor scion of House Telvanni to go off and seek their fortune as an adventurer? If you go to that level of nitpickingness it's entirely immersion-breaking to see hundreds or thousands of other (player) characters running around all of whom have also defeated Molag Bal in exactly the same way as you. Fortunately TES has the ultimate lore-preserving feature that it's all explicitly part of the creator's dream, so you can retcon this and literally everything else as you're inside a big dragonbreak where any and all versions of reality all coincide and interact, so when you see this *other* version of The Hero, it's just another version of you inside the creator's dream. Which, I suppose, it actually is...

Bal must be destroyed on ALL planes to be destroyed. That has yet to occur ^^

Faulgor

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

When you ask, "Is there a style or kind of cosmetic we have made in the past that you would like us to lean more into?" to me, that signals something I've been feeling for the past year or two: that the team might be lost when it comes to creative direction, especially regarding cosmetics.

It gives the impression that decisions are being driven more by monetization than by a clear, passionate vision for what Elder Scrolls is and that’s deeply concerning.

The question isn't meant to mean we have lost our way. It is only to signal this: Some have expressed frustration with cosmetic direction and saying years prior have been better and more grounded. It is helpful to have examples to specifically point to the team and say, "some folks are frustrated with some of the flashier cosmetics and would want something like (Insert Example). In future planning, can we have more thought into some less flashy, more grounded content?"

It's the info I need to do my job effectively. The team has a plan and is carrying it forth. Everyone in this thread I think wants player feedback to have an impact in decision making. So getting that info as early as possible is the only way to make that happen.

Considering the topic largely centers around a) the Crown Store, b) polymorphs and c) mounts, I'll use examples from these areas.

Polymorphs: Generally I think most polymorphs are fine - I especially liked the Minotaur polymorph, which is really unique yet still grounded in Tamriel, representing a currently unplayable race from the mortal plane. A possible polymorph in a similar direction might be a Hagraven or Nereid, for example.

Mounts: I had a look through the last dozen or so Crown Crate seasons, and I think all Apex level mounts are generally the direction I like: Thematic to a faction or culture from Tamriel, using believable materials and species. Something like Buoyant Armiger, Order of the Lamp, Baandari, or Akaviri Potentate mounts are what I'm talking about - not conjured mounts from another plane, atronachs, or mystical apparitions. Just normal mounts with a precise cultural theme.
Radiant Apex level mounts I liked were the Oldefire Elk - which is just a color variant of the Stonelore Elk with slightly more effects - and the Potentate Cloudrace Courser, which while still mystical comes with a more muted color palette and grounded armor.

A good starting point for similar mounts might be going through all the 10 playable races, and asking yourself if they have a good set of mounts representing their culture - e.g. I'd really love a Bonemold themed Dunmeri set of mounts, or distinctly Bretonic horse armor.

Destai

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Wanted to follow up here. The goal is always to provided a balance of more grounded yet cool items and more fun/ fantastical items as well.

Appreciate you joining the discussion and passing along the feedback!

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

However, the item selections are meant to give you the player tools to be creative and have fun. Sometimes player choice will lead to a dancing Molag Bal, as jarring as that can be. But between the Crown Store items, in-game items and in-game event items, there are plenty of choices to make a more grounded experience for yourself and for others if they so choose. Some may go down the route of Sheogorath for a more maddening experience, but they should have the option to do so as well.

The issue is others impacted by their pursuit of Sheogorath.

Let's take an example. If I want to craft in public, I have to deal with sorcerer pets, players spamming spells, NPC chatter and now these really intense animations from mounts. The sum of all those stimuli makes the game really over stimulating at times. I've always appreciated that ESO's a bit more subdued, especially compared to other games like GW2 or Neverwinter. But it is a problem, and increasingly so.

I just feel like we need some options to hide some of these effects. And more subdued cosmetics available to those who want them.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

All that being said, happy to take any additional feedback to the team for their consideration. Is there a style or kind of cosmetic we have made in the past that you would like us to lean more into?

There's been some really good examples given in the past. You can find my previous feedback here.

And also, out of curiosity - what came of the feedback from that thread back then? I'm concerned the community's repeating feedback already given, so it'd be nice to know if it influenced anything then.