Please do not bring the subclassing live

RebornV3x

the only problem with subclassing is PVP outside of that its fine and not a problem.

LalMirchi

"Please do not bring the subclassing live" Sorry OP but that ship has sailed.

noblecron

Folk have been asking for class change and multiclass for years tbh. This is a great change. The fear most have is about balancing and pvp and pve endgame. Especially PVP

I personally can't wait to switch out 2 of my sorc's daedra lines XD

Wereswan

noblecron wrote: »

Folk have been asking for class change and multiclass for years tbh. This is a great change. The fear most have is about balancing and pvp and pve endgame. Especially PVP

I personally can't wait to switch out 2 of my sorc's daedra lines XD

Or perhaps some of us are looking at all the "I can't wait to pick up Templar beams" and dreading the inevitable nerf that will come when everyone and their guar is using it. Bet the remaining Necro players are thrilled about all the chatter about [ab]using their DoT passives, too.

But yeah, just PvP players.

ADarklore

"...nobody asked for it" ?!?

Search 'Class Change Token' and you'll see people have been asking for this for YEARS... and this is their answer, as Rich stated.

Has it occurred to anyone that ZOS is fully capable of nerfing (or buffing) skills/passives simply by changing how they act 'when subclassing'? They won't need to nerf a skill or passive on the base classes at all, they can simply adjust them when they are used through subclassing... kind of like how they have battle spirit now for PvP.

I mean, if one subclass combination is absolutely overpowering all the others, it will be simple for them to tone down either a passive or a skill that's causing the severe imbalance, but only when used 'while subclassing'. Rich said from their internal testing, and I'm sure they are using AI now to help, that there will be some power creep- but what they've seen they are OK with.

As for people saying 'players will leave' because of subclassing- yet- I have been gone and never planned to return- but I WILL return because of subclassing- and I'm sure there are many out there like me who will come back. They have probably seen a stabilization of population and not an influx of new or returning players- so they needed to do something to shake things up and give players a reason to return. Those who have left and aren't excited about subclassing- them not returning is not a problem because they probably wouldn't stick around even if they returned- but for players who left because they got bored with the same old boring classes (like I did), this is a game changer. I have max number of alts, and I hate playing them because of how boring they all have become- after putting in thousands of hours and many years into the game. I always said, "I wish I could combine these xyz skills, it would be so much more fun"... and now I'll be able to do it. And when I get bored with a specific combination, I can change to something new- on a single character... imagine that.

Unfadingsilence

fizzybeef wrote: »

With all respect, its a bad idea, nobody asked for it, it will change the game incredible and create a boring and stale new meta to please a minority (if even that).

Some changes in the past were really unnecessary, like the jabs and cloak changes and now you are gonna ruin the whole class system.

There is a saying : Never change a running system.

It wont go well, please just dont do it.

??? Everyone has been asking for this tbh. Since this TRULY is balance

Fischblut

I mostly don't want subclassing because of fear that this will get many class abilities nerfed
If I was sure that there would be no nerfs, I would have no real problem with adding subclass system!

For visual roleplay, mixing class abilities of certain colors would look perfect on some of my characters

For dungeons, at the moment I can bring my comfortable-to-play Magsorc, Mag Arcanist, Magblade without problems. With subclasses, there might be a problem that only some particular class abilities combo would be welcome... And since this feature is added to the base game and not tied to owning the new Season 2025 for some reason, everyone will be expected to use it

DrSlaughtr

Whatcha gonna do when ball groups who barely rely on class skills anyway bomb with cloak over and over? What are you going to do when everyone has sorc shields?

It's stupid for PVP. This is why I feel like Vengeance will be a permanent replacement for cyrodiil.

Wuduwasa13

I’m genuinely interested in the possibilities it opens, but my biggest concern is that in order to implement effective balancing, ZOS will impose radical nerfs to certain skills, which will effective kill the individual class viability off entirely and the game will simply rely on subclassing in order to get any content done.

amiiegee

This is how it will end, everyone playing the same class with the same skill and if not you will be not allowed to join certain group content, how it is in trials already with meta sets. Play how you want? Maybe in solo content, aside of that you will have to stick with the meta.

There is already threads here asking for the most op base class to do it but at least it can be great for roleplay and solos, who aparently asked for this for years lol

ForumBully

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Whatcha gonna do when ball groups who barely rely on class skills anyway bomb with cloak over and over? What are you going to do when everyone has sorc shields?

It's stupid for PVP. This is why I feel like Vengeance will be a permanent replacement for cyrodiil.

What I'm going to do is accept that ball groups will be a disaster for performance and fun until ZoS deals with the mechanics that enable them directly. I'm going to do what I do whenever I run into another player in PvP, see what they're doing and act accordingly...and mostly what I'm going to do is enjoy the long overdue change to a stale, boring PvP experience and give feedback about what can be done to improve it going forward.

What I'm not going to do is cling to the boring things that made me leave the game in the first place because I'm afraid of change.

Messi

fizzybeef wrote: »

With all respect, its a bad idea, nobody asked for it, it will change the game incredible and create a boring and stale new meta to please a minority (if even that).

Some changes in the past were really unnecessary, like the jabs and cloak changes and now you are gonna ruin the whole class system.

There is a saying : Never change a running system.

It wont go well, please just dont do it.

"To please a minority"...lol I am not sure about that lil bro

DrSlaughtr

ForumBully wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Whatcha gonna do when ball groups who barely rely on class skills anyway bomb with cloak over and over? What are you going to do when everyone has sorc shields?

It's stupid for PVP. This is why I feel like Vengeance will be a permanent replacement for cyrodiil.

What I'm going to do is accept that ball groups will be a disaster for performance and fun until ZoS deals with the mechanics that enable them directly. I'm going to do what I do whenever I run into another player in PvP, see what they're doing and act accordingly...and mostly what I'm going to do is enjoy the long overdue change to a stale, boring PvP experience and give feedback about what can be done to improve it going forward.

What I'm not going to do is cling to the boring things that made me leave the game in the first place because I'm afraid of change.

If your house needs a paint job, you don't burn it down and pitch a tent because camping is fun.

Every "issue" anyone has with PVP is easily solvable. They don't solve them because every time they try to fix those things, there is widespread backlash. Vengeance will supplant standard PVP at some point, because it will be impossible to balance anything in PVP if you can slot the most powerful skills from any skill line on any class. The reasons why there are classes is because it allows them more nuance in affecting change.

But by all means, let's dangle this lure to bring back players who quit because they were bored at the expense of people who never quit. That sounds like a winning strategy!

You may very well be the DK player licking their chops over Hardened Ward's shields and heal. Good for you. How does that solve any issue current in the game except for your personal boredom?

AllenaNightWood

ive thought about subclasses for a very long time and i want this

ForumBully

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Whatcha gonna do when ball groups who barely rely on class skills anyway bomb with cloak over and over? What are you going to do when everyone has sorc shields?

It's stupid for PVP. This is why I feel like Vengeance will be a permanent replacement for cyrodiil.

What I'm going to do is accept that ball groups will be a disaster for performance and fun until ZoS deals with the mechanics that enable them directly. I'm going to do what I do whenever I run into another player in PvP, see what they're doing and act accordingly...and mostly what I'm going to do is enjoy the long overdue change to a stale, boring PvP experience and give feedback about what can be done to improve it going forward.

What I'm not going to do is cling to the boring things that made me leave the game in the first place because I'm afraid of change.

If your house needs a paint job, you don't burn it down and pitch a tent because camping is fun.

Every "issue" anyone has with PVP is easily solvable. They don't solve them because every time they try to fix those things, there is widespread backlash. Vengeance will supplant standard PVP at some point, because it will be impossible to balance anything in PVP if you can slot the most powerful skills from any skill line on any class. The reasons why there are classes is because it allows them more nuance in affecting change.

But by all means, let's dangle this lure to bring back players who quit because they were bored at the expense of people who never quit. That sounds like a winning strategy!

You may very well be the DK player licking their chops over Hardened Ward's shields and heal. Good for you. How does that solve any issue current in the game except for your personal boredom?

Every "easily solvable" issue has persisted for years. Regardless of what you think of the strategy, it's happening. Yes, I'm excited about it because I'm not fixated on every downside I can imagine and I'm accepting that it may cause issues that will have to be dealt with, and I still find that preferable to the years of issues that haven't been dealt with continuing on forever

LadyGP

fizzybeef wrote: »

With all respect, its a bad idea, nobody asked for it, it will change the game incredible and create a boring and stale new meta to please a minority (if even that).

Some changes in the past were really unnecessary, like the jabs and cloak changes and now you are gonna ruin the whole class system.

There is a saying : Never change a running system.

It wont go well, please just dont do it.

They have put so much time/effort into it... there is zero chance it's not coming to live.

LadyGP

daim wrote: »

The class identity has been basically dead for years now so I welcome the change. Maybe it will bring some more interest to the game and as someone said .. it's elder scrolls, and in elder scrolls you should be able to pick up the play style you want.

It's obvious there will be new meta build like there always will be and it's obvious there will be heavy nerfs to the old skills after a while.

I have every class leveled up but tbh I only play with 1 or 2 (templar and nb since beta). I guess I only have to play nb-templar from now on

Very good point.

I'm a big fan of class identity but if I'm being honest with myself like the above poster said it's been dead, or on the way out, for many years now. This is their way of kind of just... finishing that off and brining in a new aspect to the game that at lot of new MMOs have.

Gaebriel0410

Well I think subclassing is the best thing ever and its only downside is that it's only out in 2 months.
When ESO came out, people generally found the class system too rigid.

IMO class identity does not really work in ESO. The only reason it kinda worked thusfar, is because the other aspects of character building were flexible in regards to weapons, optional skill lines, item sets and armour choice.
So overall it was still a pretty good character system, only it could have been Great.

The reason why I think classes never worked in ESO, is that there are only a handful of classes in the game. We started out with just four and even now there's only seven. That's not a lot of identity.

Class identity works perfectly fine in other MMO games, because there are way more of them,, but as a tradeoff don't have ESO's more modular approach. This is what makes ESO unique, and should always be expanded on imo, to set it apart from the crowd. That's why I think scribing was a fantastic addition, and subclasses will be as well.

Of course it won't be perfectly balanced, especially at the start. But no MMO can defeat the combined inventiveness of its player base, at least I have never experienced a game that could.

And even in older TES games, the classes were not really classes. They were more like quickstart builds, a combo of major and minor skill proficiencies. If I remember well, the "Breton knight" class had major proficiency in melee and armour, and minor in speechcraft and illusion. But at the same time, you could also skip the class selection altogether and make your own variant, or perhaps an entirely new combination.

Orbital78

The meta is already boring, I think subclasses will spice things up and potentially bring players back to the game. I've already heard players that "quit", say they're installing PTS (only).

Personally I look forward to trying out DK or Templars 30-50 second empower buffs to see about adjusting more fun two bar heavy attacks builds.

LPapirius

With no class identity under this system, why not do away with classes all together and just let us choose the skill lines we want from a list? What would the difference be?

I'm not looking forward to this change at all. Historically these sweeping changes have come with a lot of drawbacks and unforeseen difficulties that we get stuck with going forward with no reversions even if the change is universally hates. (think jabs animation, which is a change no where near as impactful as subclassing)

katorga

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

With all respect, its a bad idea, nobody asked for it, it will change the game incredible and create a boring and stale new meta to please a minority (if even that).

Some changes in the past were really unnecessary, like the jabs and cloak changes and now you are gonna ruin the whole class system.

There is a saying : Never change a running system.

It wont go well, please just dont do it.

Never change a running system? well look at companies like ford buick Mitsubishi or Nissan and look how those companies are going bankrupt. Refusing to innovate makes a game stale, making the game stale lowers player interest and then lower revenue basically killing off the game. So no, keeping it as is is what is killing ESO zos refused to innovate in the past few years which caused a player decrease finally a W by zos and you crying about it?

Anyways if you don't like it play your stale ol char and don't use it, nobody puts a gun up your head young blud.

Because of ZOS' over the top nerfing style, players have asked for class change tokens for a while.

Instead we got account wide achievements, subclassing and crown store purchased skyshards and skill lines.

amiiegee

Cant wait for unkilliable 1 bar polar wind wardens with templar bubble and goliath ult 👏

RealLoveBVB

ADarklore wrote: »

"...nobody asked for it" ?!?

Search 'Class Change Token' and you'll see people have been asking for this for YEARS... and this is their answer, as Rich stated.

You know class change token have nothing to do with subclasses?
A class change token is meant to swap the class, for example from templar to nightblade, not to mix skills around.
So yes, you are right- players asked for class change tokens, but we got something totally different. Something that was -not- asked for.

It's like asking for apples and they serve you pineapples.

Ragnarok0130

Soarora wrote: »

No matter how we feel about it, it's going to go live unless it totally breaks the game.

Sadly I agree and frankly even if it totally breaks the game it'll still go live since ZoS has legendary levels of hubris based upon previous controversial patches. The subclass train will run even if it's off a cliff.

Ragnarok0130

Bobargus wrote: »

You are right, they shouldn't bring the subclass system into ESO's live servers.

Instead, they should remove the classes and subclasses completely, and let players use whatever skill and ability they want to use freely.

On a serious note, this subclass system is a step in the right direction.

Keep up the good work, devs!

Have you thought of playing Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim since it's apparent you don't want to play an MMO?

ADarklore

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

"...nobody asked for it" ?!?

Search 'Class Change Token' and you'll see people have been asking for this for YEARS... and this is their answer, as Rich stated.

You know class change token have nothing to do with subclasses?
A class change token is meant to swap the class, for example from templar to nightblade, not to mix skills around.
So yes, you are right- players asked for class change tokens, but we got something totally different. Something that was -not- asked for.

It's like asking for apples and they serve you pineapples.

This is the compromise for class change tokens. It still keeps alts relevant- because you cannot have TWO of the same class for subclassing and always have to maintain one class skill line of your main. So if someone wants to have at least TWO of a specific class skill lines, they will need to be that class.

Melivar

The forum population itself is in the minority of ESO players. I'd be surprised if even half the people who play have played the game even know there is a forum. 36,000 plus people one the live stream was the max I noted and best bet for any forum poll thread etc is like 1000 people or less.

Then you take the Hardcore PVP and PVE subset who is 1-5% of the player base being generous who are the only ones who would have a reason not to be looking at this with some positive spin as it potential kills all the known meta's.

The portion of the player base that this may break the game for is pretty insignificant in the long run they just have the loudest voice here and on reddit and other online portions.

For everyone else it will have no impact or it will open up untold hours of messing around with crazy things that may be cool and awesome for overland and having fun, but would probably be terrible if you had to try and do anything vet or hard mode.

Twohothardware

The majority of players on ESO will enjoy subclassing. It will allow you to try other classes without starting a completely new character and hours grinding up from lvl 1. There will also be something new for meta chasers to do with playtesting the dozens of different viable class combinations.

QB1

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Bobargus wrote: »

You are right, they shouldn't bring the subclass system into ESO's live servers.

Instead, they should remove the classes and subclasses completely, and let players use whatever skill and ability they want to use freely.

On a serious note, this subclass system is a step in the right direction.

Keep up the good work, devs!

Have you thought of playing Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim since it's apparent you don't want to play an MMO?

Have you thought about playing a different MMO, since it's apparent you don’t want to play one based on The Elder Scrolls?

Ingenon

Please bring subclassing live.

I have lots of alts. Some of each class. And I'm almost always doing PvE stuff. Some of the alts don't get used much, because their class doesn't have a decent easy to play build that doesn't require great light attack weaving and muscle memory of a specific pattern of skill casts and bar swaps. But the one bar Oakensoul HA sorcerer only requires two sorcerer skill lines, so it looks to me like any class now can have a decent easy to play PvE build, at least for overland up to veteran dungeons.

And this is just one example for one player. I believe if we surveyed every ESO player, we would find that many of them would find some benefit with subclassing.