Please do not bring the subclassing live

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

This subclassing is a step towards bringing the game more into the TES world than I thought they would be brave enough to do.

I am here to play TESO, not PVP simulator online or PVEmeta online.

Any change that makes the TES in TESO bigger is a positive one, even if PVEmeta Online and PVP Simulator have to be tweaked afterwards.

Eldartar

Asdara wrote: »

1. You're the minority here, I’ve been advocating for a classless ESO for the last decade.
2. This isn’t WoW.
3. Classes never made sense in ESO to begin with, they were just a lore gimmick to mimic other MMOs and “fit in” when the game launched 15 years ago.
4. There’s no true “class identity.” Classes don’t bring unique buffs or utility that others don’t, which is exactly why we end up with Arcanist-only trials.
5. There are no talent trees to expand on or deepen a class.
6. There are no meaningful class sets, only a few niche and usually underwhelming ones from Infinite Archive.
7. No class has received a single new skill in over 10 years.
8. At this point, everyone has access to every class on their account. If everyone is “powerful,” no one is, subclassing just means more ways to express your build and play how you want.
9. Hybridization was the first step toward this evolution.
10. “Meta” will always exist, subclassing won’t create it, it’ll just give people more tools to challenge it.
11. Limiting player creativity in the name of "class purity" is outdated, ESO has thrived because of its build flexibility, not in spite of it.
12. The community has already embraced build freedom: hybrid stats, mixing skill lines, gear that ignores traditional roles — subclassing just aligns the system with how players already play.
13. ESO’s most fun comes from experimenting. Subclassing expands that sandbox without taking anything away from current class loyalists.
14. Saying "don’t change what works" ignores the fact that ESO’s class system hasn’t been working for many players, it’s been static and restrictive for years.
15. You still have the choice to play your class exactly as it is now. Subclassing doesn’t remove that, it just stops locking everyone else into the same mold.

TL;DR — You’re wrong. ESO was never about strict classes. Subclassing doesn’t ruin anything — it finally makes the system catch up to how people actually play. If you want to stick to your class, nothing stops you. But don’t hold the rest of us back.

This Hit the nail on the head for me. Well put @Asdara.

fizzybeef

ADarklore wrote: »

"...nobody asked for it" ?!?

Search 'Class Change Token' and you'll see people have been asking for this for YEARS... and this is their answer, as Rich stated.

Has it occurred to anyone that ZOS is fully capable of nerfing (or buffing) skills/passives simply by changing how they act 'when subclassing'? They won't need to nerf a skill or passive on the base classes at all, they can simply adjust them when they are used through subclassing... kind of like how they have battle spirit now for PvP.

I mean, if one subclass combination is absolutely overpowering all the others, it will be simple for them to tone down either a passive or a skill that's causing the severe imbalance, but only when used 'while subclassing'. Rich said from their internal testing, and I'm sure they are using AI now to help, that there will be some power creep- but what they've seen they are OK with.

As for people saying 'players will leave' because of subclassing- yet- I have been gone and never planned to return- but I WILL return because of subclassing- and I'm sure there are many out there like me who will come back. They have probably seen a stabilization of population and not an influx of new or returning players- so they needed to do something to shake things up and give players a reason to return. Those who have left and aren't excited about subclassing- them not returning is not a problem because they probably wouldn't stick around even if they returned- but for players who left because they got bored with the same old boring classes (like I did), this is a game changer. I have max number of alts, and I hate playing them because of how boring they all have become- after putting in thousands of hours and many years into the game. I always said, "I wish I could combine these xyz skills, it would be so much more fun"... and now I'll be able to do it. And when I get bored with a specific combination, I can change to something new- on a single character... imagine that.

your note under your text is literally saying youre strictly a solo pve quester. Im happy they please your niche at least, everyone else will have a even more boring and stale meta and the game to be even more unbalanced.

Nobody who is not roleplaying or solo questing asked for these changes. And dont forget the ammount of people on the forums are also a minority. Go in the zone chats and speak about subclasses, people are dreading it.

fizzybeef

this ^ They should not bring this live!

xylena_lazarow

Please do bring subclassing live

JemadarofCaerSalis

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Bobargus wrote: »

You are right, they shouldn't bring the subclass system into ESO's live servers.

Instead, they should remove the classes and subclasses completely, and let players use whatever skill and ability they want to use freely.

On a serious note, this subclass system is a step in the right direction.

Keep up the good work, devs!

Have you thought of playing Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim since it's apparent you don't want to play an MMO?

I have, lots of times. With many different mods, for a great many hours.

Just because ESO is an MMO doesn't mean they have to follow the exact same formulae every other MMO does, which in turn means they don't *have* to have strict classes. I don't see them removing classes entirely, so I feel that subclasses are probably going to be as close to 'classless' as we can get.

Could this change be bad? Sure, so could just about any change made. Do I think it is going to be fun for likely the vast majority of the player base? Yes, I do. AS someone else pointed out, forum users tend to be a small fraction of the playerbase, with PvP/Endgame being a smaller fraction. I feel that most ESO players are the type that group up when needed, but otherwise are playing a relatively single player game, or aren't chasing metas, just wanting to have fun, even if they are doing things typically referred to as 'endgame' activities.

This will allow ESO to be a bit closer to the feel of the single player games, while still allowing players to play in a 'living breathing world' where they can group up for more difficult content, or head off to decorate their homes, or whatever they want to do.

Toanis

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Have you thought of playing Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim since it's apparent you don't want to play an MMO?

MMORPG, the term coined by the creator of Ultima Online when releasing the second "true" MMORPG after Meridian 59.
M59 had no classes at all, UO classes are skill preselection-templates. Have you thought of playing Diablo or Dark Souls?

ADarklore

Some players seem to conveniently forget that ESO needs to change in order to try to bring back players. Sure, these players are content with what they're playing, but they neglect to realize that on the current trajectory, ESO won't be around for much longer. Without an influx of new or returning players, the game will just die- sooner rather than later. These players also seem to forget that ZOS even said years ago this ESO is not a 'traditional MMO' and is designed to be 'Skyrim with friends'. So when people complain that they are burying 'roles' or that it's becoming too much like Skyrim- it isn't ZOS that's disconnected from game's design, it's those particular players who refuse to accept the reality of ESO and the underlying design of the game. So with subclassing, ZOS is moving ESO continually forward in the 'Skyrim with friends' design- which is awesome IMO. I never planned to return, and now I'm super excited to return because it offers me so much more creative potential for my characters.

Lumsdenml

I'm not sure how people are figuring that zos will screw up balancing.... how much balancing do you need to do when everyone has access to everything? That's also known as balance.

RealLoveBVB

Lumsdenml wrote: »

I'm not sure how people are figuring that zos will screw up balancing.... how much balancing do you need to do when everyone has access to everything? That's also known as balance.

If everyone, let's say, does 200k dps and trifectas are no challenge anymore, then there is an balance issue. Keeping skills as they are will definitely increase the dps, which screams for a nerf.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

I'm not sure how people are figuring that zos will screw up balancing.... how much balancing do you need to do when everyone has access to everything? That's also known as balance.

If everyone, let's say, does 200k dps and trifectas are no challenge anymore, then there is an balance issue. Keeping skills as they are will definitely increase the dps, which screams for a nerf.

It may increase DPS to insane levels for people who max out DPS for a living/hobby.

Most of the pub groups I run with in Vet randoms could *use* a DPS buff so I am not tanking Shadowrend for 45minutes...

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

fizzybeef wrote: »

Nobody who is not roleplaying or solo questing asked for these changes.

Also, people who aren't at least a *little bit* roleplaying are probably in the wrong genre if they're in an mmo-RP-g.

I am trying to think of someone who picks up TESO who is like "elder scrolls? What's that? I just want to pwn n00bs in this third person shooter"

Wereswan

ADarklore wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

"...nobody asked for it" ?!?

Search 'Class Change Token' and you'll see people have been asking for this for YEARS... and this is their answer, as Rich stated.

You know class change token have nothing to do with subclasses?
A class change token is meant to swap the class, for example from templar to nightblade, not to mix skills around.
So yes, you are right- players asked for class change tokens, but we got something totally different. Something that was -not- asked for.

It's like asking for apples and they serve you pineapples.

This is the compromise for class change tokens. It still keeps alts relevant- because you cannot have TWO of the same class for subclassing and always have to maintain one class skill line of your main. So if someone wants to have at least TWO of a specific class skill lines, they will need to be that class.

In the current game state, there are three good healer class options, and four that range from "adequate" to "lol, lmao" (and sorry, DK healers, but you know who I'm talking about.) What I would loved to have seen is the class skill lines get revamped, so we could have seven good options. Instead, what's going to happen is people saying "just swap X out for Green Balance/Restorative Light/Curative Runeforms" if anyone suggests it.

Yay, the "freedom" to run the same three skill lines on every healer.

QB1 wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Bobargus wrote: »

You are right, they shouldn't bring the subclass system into ESO's live servers.

Instead, they should remove the classes and subclasses completely, and let players use whatever skill and ability they want to use freely.

On a serious note, this subclass system is a step in the right direction.

Keep up the good work, devs!

Have you thought of playing Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim since it's apparent you don't want to play an MMO?

Have you thought about playing a different MMO, since it's apparent you don’t want to play one based on The Elder Scrolls?

It's been this way since launch, yanno. ESO may draw on the lore of mainline TES games, but it has never used their systems.

Castagere

I'm worried about the nerf hammer coming because of PVP—those of us who don't PVP are going to get hammered badly.

Hurbster

This is the one thing that may be capable of bringing me back, I'm incredibly intrigued.

Wereswan

Castagere wrote: »

I'm worried about the nerf hammer coming because of PVP—those of us who don't PVP are going to get hammered badly.

You're going to see some thoroughly ridiculous trial comps coming out of this, too, and we'll all eat nerfs because of them.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

Wereswan wrote: »

It's been this way since launch, yanno. ESO may draw on the lore of mainline TES games, but it has never used their systems.

And I am glad they are fixing this very strange choice.

TESO's closed beta was my first MMO, and my first thought going in was "what are these classes and what do they do?" because they were so incongruous with the TES universe. I kept playing despite the dissonance, but I am thankful they are finally fixing it.

They might as well be relaunching the game with more faithful features for all the excitement I have for it.

OldStygian

fizzybeef wrote: »

With all respect, its a bad idea, nobody asked for it, it will change the game incredible and create a boring and stale new meta to please a minority (if even that).

Some changes in the past were really unnecessary, like the jabs and cloak changes and now you are gonna ruin the whole class system.

There is a saying : Never change a running system.

It wont go well, please just dont do it.

I've been asking for it since I started playing this version of TES.

cmetzger93

I asked for it. Very excited for it. Please bring it live

tom6143346

The casual / roleplayers get with subclasses what they beg for: broken builds so game can be finally easier for them and more of the play as you whant nonsense

RealLoveBVB

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

I'm not sure how people are figuring that zos will screw up balancing.... how much balancing do you need to do when everyone has access to everything? That's also known as balance.

If everyone, let's say, does 200k dps and trifectas are no challenge anymore, then there is an balance issue. Keeping skills as they are will definitely increase the dps, which screams for a nerf.

It may increase DPS to insane levels for people who max out DPS for a living/hobby.

Most of the pub groups I run with in Vet randoms could *use* a DPS buff so I am not tanking Shadowrend for 45minutes...

I totally feel you. Yet nerfs are happening because of the hobbyparsers and not because of some quester doing 10k instead of 8k dps now.
But also don't worry, they are on a good way to get rid of veteran players.

zaria

Lylith wrote: »

the downside to it may well be skills being unnecessarily nerfed which will force an even narrower meta to keep up with the changes b/c original class skill lines will end up trashed.

not a good thing, imho, as it will destroy builds some of us have spent years putting together.

not that any of that matters, at this point, ofc.

I agree, now I would say ESO classes has never been very balanced and ZOS attempt to balance stuff has often made things worse.

Mayrael

This is one of the cleverest ways to introduce balance. Congratulations on the idea. Thanks to this, I think in the near future we’ll be able to put an end to the eternal debates about class balance because if something is truly OP, everyone can use it, and a nerf will satisfy most players to a greater or lesser extent. Moreover, it’s a brilliant way to breathe life into classes that have so far had significant gaps in their arsenal. I can’t wait to see what other players come up with.

Additionally, the way subclassing was introduced is genius. The requirement to give up one of your own skill lines encourages reflection on the strengths and weaknesses of a class. On top of that, the option to choose, for example, just one skill line and keep two of your own ensures that class choice remains important but not as definitive as it used to be. This is a great solution for people who’ve invested a lot of time in developing their character and don’t want to start a new class from scratch because their current one is too weak.

DrSlaughtr

Hey, don't worry guys. When I Heavy Attack to CC -> Concealed Weapon -> LA -> Unblockable/Dodgeable Dragon Leap, I'm sure it will be a lot of fun for the opponent!

Cooperharley

Here to add that I’m personally extremely excited for subclassing. Thank you devs!

Bo0137

Last update's meta is gone. In fact, last decade's meta is gone. But it will bring way more fun to the game. Embrace it!
It's perfect for ESO's 11th year! It's a soft reboot, and it feels fresh.
And it's not like you can't keep your character the way it is. There are sets from the OG zones that are still perfectly viable. A DK with 11 year old gear will do fine.
People are worried about power level. Guys, this game's number one priority should be fun. At the end of the day, it is about having fun.
If you want to chase the high end power level, it is ok. If you don't, simply don't. It's not like the trials HM got a buff or something. You can still do everything in the game.

Ragnarok0130

QB1 wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Bobargus wrote: »

You are right, they shouldn't bring the subclass system into ESO's live servers.

Instead, they should remove the classes and subclasses completely, and let players use whatever skill and ability they want to use freely.

On a serious note, this subclass system is a step in the right direction.

Keep up the good work, devs!

Have you thought of playing Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim since it's apparent you don't want to play an MMO?

Have you thought about playing a different MMO, since it's apparent you don’t want to play one based on The Elder Scrolls?

I’ve played since closed beta and it’s 100% an elder scrolls MMO - MMO being the operative part. This is an honest question, what activities do you partake in ESO as I think that will explain why you don’t are about combat balance or class identity?

I enjoy Veteran and veteran HM trials, dungeons, and the rare foray into Cyro or IC where I am a telvar ATM for real PVPers since I’m a PVP tourist. I love the chapter story lines but my passion is end game group content where balance is very important where buffs or nerfs make huge differences. Subclassing (it should be called multiclassing in all honesty) will destroy any semblance of balance for a long time necessitating months if not years of build and skill turmoil and imbalance like we had with the Morrowind patch and U35 patch that decimated the end game. Meanwhile this unpredictability and chaos regarding classes, passives, and skills being repeatedly and dramatically nerfed, buffed, or reworked due to unforeseen interactions and synergies will destroy end game trial progression groups. This churn and unpredictability will likely dissuade many prog groups from continuing until things settle down which could be 1-2 years. Anyone wanting to run a pure class due to skill line and passive nerfs to account for overpowered multiclass builds will be at disadvantage unless penalties or caps are worked into skill lines from other classes. Let us not forget that like with hybridization that offered the illusion of more choices the viable builds will likely decrease in the end game with multiclassing creating an even more stale meta in the end. But hey it’s a win for the role players who flood zone chat with their nonsense who never step foot in a dungeon.

It’s typically unwise for anyone to upend so much of any system at once. ZoS would be better off changing things slowly and methodically once piece at a time instead upending the entire combat system in one fell swoop in an effort to get positive buzz for the next update. There’s no way ZoS can take all of the valid feedback into account before this patch drops just like we saw with U35 and its disastrous follow on consequences.

DrSlaughtr

Bo0137 wrote: »

Last update's meta is gone. In fact, last decade's meta is gone. But it will bring way more fun to the game. Embrace it!
It's perfect for ESO's 11th year! It's a soft reboot, and it feels fresh.
And it's not like you can't keep your character the way it is. There are sets from the OG zones that are still perfectly viable. A DK with 11 year old gear will do fine.
People are worried about power level. Guys, this game's number one priority should be fun. At the end of the day, it is about having fun.
If you want to chase the high end power level, it is ok. If you don't, simply don't. It's not like the trials HM got a buff or something. You can still do everything in the game.

Do you PVP?

Let's say you do. What if this is a dumpster fire for PVP, so they actually make Cyrodiill Vengeance only? Are you okay with that? I feel like the pro argument for this issue is looking at it from a very narrow, selfish angle. "Well I would love to play a DK with Sorc and NB skills" while not considering how it will feel to get run over by a ball group of DKs with everyone having negate.

amiiegee

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Bobargus wrote: »

You are right, they shouldn't bring the subclass system into ESO's live servers.

Instead, they should remove the classes and subclasses completely, and let players use whatever skill and ability they want to use freely.

On a serious note, this subclass system is a step in the right direction.

Keep up the good work, devs!

Have you thought of playing Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim since it's apparent you don't want to play an MMO?

Have you thought about playing a different MMO, since it's apparent you don’t want to play one based on The Elder Scrolls?

I’ve played since closed beta and it’s 100% an elder scrolls MMO - MMO being the operative part. This is an honest question, what activities do you partake in ESO as I think that will explain why you don’t are about combat balance or class identity?

I enjoy Veteran and veteran HM trials, dungeons, and the rare foray into Cyro or IC where I am a telvar ATM for real PVPers since I’m a PVP tourist. I love the chapter story lines but my passion is end game group content where balance is very important where buffs or nerfs make huge differences. Subclassing (it should be called multiclassing in all honesty) will destroy any semblance of balance for a long time necessitating months if not years of build and skill turmoil and imbalance like we had with the Morrowind patch and U35 patch that decimated the end game. Meanwhile this unpredictability and chaos regarding classes, passives, and skills being repeatedly and dramatically nerfed, buffed, or reworked due to unforeseen interactions and synergies will destroy end game trial progression groups. This churn and unpredictability will likely dissuade many prog groups from continuing until things settle down which could be 1-2 years. Anyone wanting to run a pure class due to skill line and passive nerfs to account for overpowered multiclass builds will be at disadvantage unless penalties or caps are worked into skill lines from other classes. Let us not forget that like with hybridization that offered the illusion of more choices the viable builds will likely decrease in the end game with multiclassing creating an even more stale meta in the end. But hey it’s a win for the role players who flood zone chat with their nonsense who never step foot in a dungeon.

It’s typically unwise for anyone to upend so much of any system at once. ZoS would be better off changing things slowly and methodically once piece at a time instead upending the entire combat system in one fell swoop in an effort to get positive buzz for the next update. There’s no way ZoS can take all of the valid feedback into account before this patch drops just like we saw with U35 and its disastrous follow on consequences.

this tbh.

Please dont bring the subclassing live

SaffronCitrusflower

Renato90085 wrote: »

I think most people just don't trust Zos's ability to balance...

Between subclassing and vengeance mode it feels like ZOS is doing the proverbial "flipping the table over" and throwing too many variables at us at once. ESO is starting to look and feel like a different game than it was on release. It's not evolving well IMO. No more ESO+ or further purchases from me are likely in the future.