Do we get to tell Tanlorin to back off?

AScarlato

Syldras wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

At the end of the day you can imply intent to Jakarn that likely simply doesn't exist, or have a long discourse on Arabelle, but I'm not really all that interested.

But interested enough in dismissing other people's criticism and accusing them of being oversensitive, it seems.

AScarlato wrote: »

The theme I got from this thread is that some people are put off by the levels of innuendo some NPCs have, which is fine - but others find it rather tame and don't have the mindset that a playful NPC is heavily hitting on them at every moment.

If you're walking through town and suddenly some guy would approach you and tell you out of the blue "Hey darling, you're lovely! You know James Bond? He takes a lot of people to bed. I'm just like him! *nudge nudge* How about we have some wine together?" you'd assume that person is not hitting on you? Because that's exactly the behaviour Arabelle shows (including an invitation to "discuss bawdy things" while having wine), several times, just with using Inspector Vale as a ESO-appropriate comparison. I have a hard time understanding how someone can not recognize that as attempts in flirting - and quite unsophisticated ones at that.

Maybe that's even more annoying; she's supposed to be a famous writer, but the only thing that comes to her mind when trying to be flirty is "Hey darling! You lovely! I love romance! Let's have wine and explore that further!" like she's some sleazy lice-ridden tavern dweller. That's the true tragedy of High Isle (apart from the fact that the player character cannot react in any way towards advances): It has an overall "flirty" tone in many quests, but it's all absolutely over-the-top obvious and in a way horribly clumsy. It's usually some random npc making some obvious remark (Let's have wine, go to bed, bla bla, etc) immediately upon meeting them, it never comes across as actually inviting or even tempting, but as random and sleazy. This is the issue I have with it: Not the (comparably tame) bawdiness, but that it feels very cliché, exaggerated and context-less, and that my character just has to accept it, which is absolutely out of character and therefore immersion-breaking.

I'll be honest, I did not read the entirety of your comment. I like the NPCs, you clearly have issues with them.

I sincerely hope the writers don't choose to sanitize all NPCs to be as inoffensive as possible to the most sensitive in the playerbase. This is still an M-rated game and very little even goes that far IMO.

Syldras

AScarlato wrote: »

I'll be honest, I did not read the entirety of your comment. I like the NPCs, you clearly have issues with them.
I sincerely hope the writers don't choose to sanitize all NPCs to be as inoffensive as possible to the most sensitive in the playerbase. This is still an M-rated game and very little even goes that far IMO.

You should have read it, then you might have understood that I have no problem with "bawdiness" at all (and I'm actually someone who advocated for ESO to be more daring when it comes to a variety of topics, also more "critical" and "unsafe" ones from today's perspective, in many threads in this forum, because this is indeed no children's game). It's all about the writing quality and the fact that I think that an rpg should give the player different choices to react if the player character is approached emotionally somehow. It's about writing quality and roleplay, nothing else.

AScarlato

Syldras wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I'll be honest, I did not read the entirety of your comment. I like the NPCs, you clearly have issues with them.
I sincerely hope the writers don't choose to sanitize all NPCs to be as inoffensive as possible to the most sensitive in the playerbase. This is still an M-rated game and very little even goes that far IMO.

You should have read it, then you might have understood that I have no problem with "bawdiness" at all (and I'm actually someone who advocated for ESO to be more daring when it comes to a variety of topics, also more "critical" and "unsafe" ones from today's perspective, in many threads in this forum, because this is indeed no children's game). It's all about the writing quality and the fact that I think that an rpg should give the player different choices to react if the player character is approached emotionally somehow. It's about writing quality and roleplay, nothing else.

Yes and the writing quality and roleplay/reactivity is another topic that goes beyond focusing on these few High Isle NPCs. We have had tons of criticism as to how the Vestige reacts and their dialogue in the game as a whole.

They are introducing a system that I hope goes well as far as giving us different types of responses - we will see how well they do with it.

Stx

I haven’t ever used Tanlorin but their hair alone is enough to make me never want to. It screams modern day coastal major city… not Tamriel.

blktauna

huskandhunger wrote: »

Jakarn is the biggest flirt, he always be like hey there good looking, and I'm like ...you're not even a werewolf, go away.

Companion wise, Bastian I have always wished I could eat him and in doing so have him deleted from my roster. His face and Isobels are hideous and rough on the eyes.

Lol see I adore Bastien and he makes me laugh. And I love gingers.

sans-culottes

Stx wrote: »

I haven’t ever used Tanlorin but their hair alone is enough to make me never want to. It screams modern day coastal major city… not Tamriel.

I can safely say I’ve never seen this hair in any major coastal city. Or anywhere else.

UrQuan

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The problem is that ZOS represents this concept by using very current phrasing rather than making new phrases that fit with Tamriel e.g. fetch.

Stop trying to make fetch happen!

spartaxoxo

sans-culottes wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

I haven’t ever used Tanlorin but their hair alone is enough to make me never want to. It screams modern day coastal major city… not Tamriel.

I can safely say I’ve never seen this hair in any major coastal city. Or anywhere else.

I haven't either. The purple but not the styling, personally. I'm not on the coast but in a city.

CoronHR

the reason i don't like Tanlorin is because they're half-DK, half-soul magic. I would prefer all soul magic, because Bastion is already a DK, so Tanlorin's abilities are repeated, which is boring. i really like Tanlorin's soul magic abilities, and i realise zos would have had to create new soul magic abilities for Tanlorin to use, to fill out their portfolio of available skills, but then those skills could have been offered to us in some form, expanding a not-oft-used skill line

Pevey

The dialogue is a bit off-putting to me, too. But I think the way to tell Tanlorin to back off is just to use one of the other companions. By the number of copies of Tanlorin I see running around, it seems like some players like them.

There are many different companion options now to choose from. None of the perks are make-or-break/must-have, so nothing to worry over. In fact, I make sure never to use Bastian so that I don't accidentally unlock his keepsake and get forever cursed with those useless potion clogging up inventory.

spartaxoxo

UrQuan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The problem is that ZOS represents this concept by using very current phrasing rather than making new phrases that fit with Tamriel e.g. fetch.

Stop trying to make fetch happen!

😡

Why should Jorunn just get to stomp around like a giant while the rest of us try not to get smushed under his big feet? Hm? Emeric is just as cute as Jorunn, right? Emeric is just as smart as Jorunn, people totally like Emeric just as much as they like Jorunn, and when did it become okay for one person to be the boss of everybody because that's not what Tamriel is about! We should totally just STAB JORUNN!

Lol I love the movie mean girls

AScarlato

spartaxoxo wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The problem is that ZOS represents this concept by using very current phrasing rather than making new phrases that fit with Tamriel e.g. fetch.

Stop trying to make fetch happen!

😡

Why should Jorunn just get to stomp around like a giant while the rest of us try not to get smushed under his big feet? Hm? Emeric is just as cute as Jorunn, right? Emeric is just as smart as Jorunn, people totally like Emeric just as much as they like Jorunn, and when did it become okay for one person to be the boss of everybody because that's not what Tamriel is about! We should totally just STAB JORUNN!

Lol I love the movie mean girls

I often make use of the Lindsey Lohan morality speech lol.

"Calling Tanlorin's hair ugly won't make mine more beautiful. Calling Tanlorin stupid won't make me smarter, and won't stop me from dying to this boss if I don't stop typing to rant about Tanlorin."

UrQuan

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The problem is that ZOS represents this concept by using very current phrasing rather than making new phrases that fit with Tamriel e.g. fetch.

Stop trying to make fetch happen!

😡

Why should Jorunn just get to stomp around like a giant while the rest of us try not to get smushed under his big feet? Hm? Emeric is just as cute as Jorunn, right? Emeric is just as smart as Jorunn, people totally like Emeric just as much as they like Jorunn, and when did it become okay for one person to be the boss of everybody because that's not what Tamriel is about! We should totally just STAB JORUNN!

Lol I love the movie mean girls

I often make use of the Lindsey Lohan morality speech lol.

"Calling Tanlorin's hair ugly won't make mine more beautiful. Calling Tanlorin stupid won't make me smarter, and won't stop me from dying to this boss if I don't stop typing to rant about Tanlorin."

This is now a Mean Girls of Tamriel thread.

katanagirl1

Syldras wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

At the end of the day you can imply intent to Jakarn that likely simply doesn't exist, or have a long discourse on Arabelle, but I'm not really all that interested.

But interested enough in dismissing other people's criticism and accusing them of being oversensitive, it seems.

AScarlato wrote: »

The theme I got from this thread is that some people are put off by the levels of innuendo some NPCs have, which is fine - but others find it rather tame and don't have the mindset that a playful NPC is heavily hitting on them at every moment.

If you're walking through town and suddenly some guy would approach you and tell you out of the blue "Hey darling, you're lovely! You know James Bond? He takes a lot of people to bed. I'm just like him! *nudge nudge* How about we have some wine together?" you'd assume that person is not hitting on you? Because that's exactly the behaviour Arabelle shows (including an invitation to "discuss bawdy things" while having wine), several times, just with using Inspector Vale as a ESO-appropriate comparison. I have a hard time understanding how someone can not recognize that as attempts in flirting - and quite unsophisticated ones at that.

Maybe that's even more annoying; she's supposed to be a famous writer, but the only thing that comes to her mind when trying to be flirty is "Hey darling! You lovely! I love romance! Let's have wine and explore that further!" like she's some sleazy lice-ridden tavern dweller. That's the true tragedy of High Isle (apart from the fact that the player character cannot react in any way towards advances): It has an overall "flirty" tone in many quests, but it's all absolutely over-the-top obvious and in a way horribly clumsy. It's usually some random npc making some obvious remark (Let's have wine, go to bed, bla bla, etc) immediately upon meeting them, it never comes across as actually inviting or even tempting, but as random and sleazy. This is the issue I have with it: Not the (comparably tame) bawdiness, but that it feels very cliché, exaggerated and context-less, and that my character just has to accept it, which is absolutely out of character and therefore immersion-breaking.

Well said, you pretty much summarized the points I would have made.

The only other thing I have commented on before is that it is so repulsive coming from an older lady. You expect Jakarn to flirt around because he’s a young guy. Seeing someone old enough to be your grandmother when you are an adult act like that is nothing other than creepy, especially when it is directed to you. You may judge me for thinking that way but in general, at least in our culture when I was growing up, older people were more respected and acted accordingly.

Jestir

I generally really like Tanlorin but my god is their hair playdough looking but it's still between them and Sharp as my favorite companion

Crimsonorion

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

TBH it wasn’t the flirting that bothered me with Tanlorin, I just ignored it. I can even ignore the attitude and the hideous hair.

But my problem is the voice, it really bothers me. It took me a little bit to figure out why, then one day after listening to something said it clicked. To me, the voice sounds like a female trying to imitate a male voice in a mocking sort of way.

This is my main issue with Tanlorin and the reason I really don’t use her. Though the hair is pretty bad as well and cant put a hat or helm over it.

Well the voice actor they used is Trans, which not bashing it, just saying that's why the voice sounds like that

BretonMage

Crimsonorion wrote: »

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

TBH it wasn’t the flirting that bothered me with Tanlorin, I just ignored it. I can even ignore the attitude and the hideous hair.

But my problem is the voice, it really bothers me. It took me a little bit to figure out why, then one day after listening to something said it clicked. To me, the voice sounds like a female trying to imitate a male voice in a mocking sort of way.

This is my main issue with Tanlorin and the reason I really don’t use her. Though the hair is pretty bad as well and cant put a hat or helm over it.

Well the voice actor they used is Trans, which not bashing it, just saying that's why the voice sounds like that

For me the issue with their voice is that they overdo the enthusiasm. Nothing to do with the gender. They're just loud and pumped all the time, which is... it can't be natural, surely. It's a pity, because I like their character otherwise.

tomofhyrule

BretonMage wrote: »

Crimsonorion wrote: »

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

TBH it wasn’t the flirting that bothered me with Tanlorin, I just ignored it. I can even ignore the attitude and the hideous hair.

But my problem is the voice, it really bothers me. It took me a little bit to figure out why, then one day after listening to something said it clicked. To me, the voice sounds like a female trying to imitate a male voice in a mocking sort of way.

This is my main issue with Tanlorin and the reason I really don’t use her. Though the hair is pretty bad as well and cant put a hat or helm over it.

Well the voice actor they used is Trans, which not bashing it, just saying that's why the voice sounds like that

For me the issue with their voice is that they overdo the enthusiasm. Nothing to do with the gender. They're just loud and pumped all the time, which is... it can't be natural, surely. It's a pity, because I like their character otherwise.

I will say that when they're offscreen, I keep thinking they were Bosmer. I honestly think they would have been a lot more believable as a Bosmer, what with the enthusiasm and such.

That is one thing that I don't like about how ESO handles Altmer especially - it seems they are trying to make every major Altmer be as un-Altmer as possible. I definitely think it goes back to them trying to 'redeem' Altmer from what they were in Skyrim, but the pendulum swung too far in the other direction and now many of the major Altmer are precisely the opposite of Altmer culture. At least Tanlorin is canonically an Altmer outcast, but characters like Ayrenn are also very non-Altmer and are not only accepted in Altmer society but lauded.

I get that "I'm nothing like my race's stereotype!" is a great source of story conflict (heck, I love using that as a springboard for my own backstories), but even still there are a few points that I will still call in. For example, my main is an Orc, but he was raised by a Nord couple after his stronghold fell just after he was born and his parents were killed. As such, he's a lot more of a Nord at heart, but he does still have some Orcish charateristics like the bodyshape of an Orc (i.e. he's jacked) and is a natural blacksmith. A lot of his story, especially during the Orsinium line, is also learning to accept himself as the child of two worlds. I'm just not seeing anything past disdain and self-hate for some of these characters. Of course in real life anyone can be anything. But in a fantasy world which is essentially a planet of hats and most races are pretty conservative about how they act, someone who's different is just a bit jarring.

A lot of the Companions are trying too hard to not be part of their race. Basti is Imperial, but is essentially a Breton in all but name. Ember has nothing to say she's Khajiit beyond a tail, not even her way of speaking. Tanlorin has open disdain for Altmer society. And so on. It seems like the Companions that people like the most are the ones like Sharp and Zerith, who lean into their race and their race's lore rather than the ones who reject it. And again, the internal racial conflict to build a story is not a bad start, but if it's completely ignored (Basti, Ember) or the character just crosses the threshold of being a believable member of that race (Tan), then it just feels like it doesn't work.

SatanicSister

tomofhyrule wrote: »

A lot of the Companions are trying too hard to not be part of their race. Basti is Imperial, but is essentially a Breton in all but name. Ember has nothing to say she's Khajiit beyond a tail, not even her way of speaking. Tanlorin has open disdain for Altmer society. And so on. It seems like the Companions that people like the most are the ones like Sharp and Zerith, who lean into their race and their race's lore rather than the ones who reject it. And again, the internal racial conflict to build a story is not a bad start, but if it's completely ignored (Basti, Ember) or the character just crosses the threshold of being a believable member of that race (Tan), then it just feels like it doesn't work.

I don't think Bastian is actually a "pureblood" Imperial. I might be wrong but it seems to me his father, Lord Martel Hallix, was a Breton. It would definitely explain why Bastian doesn't really look like an Imperial (and appearance-wise, he takes after his father). It could also explain his magical aptitude that is more common in Bretons.
Bastians mother was most definitely an Imperial and it could be the reason why he is technically considered an Imperial too (I think, though I might be wrong here too, the race of a child is determined after the race of the mother).

BretonMage

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I get that "I'm nothing like my race's stereotype!" is a great source of story conflict (heck, I love using that as a springboard for my own backstories), but even still there are a few points that I will still call in. For example, my main is an Orc, but he was raised by a Nord couple after his stronghold fell just after he was born and his parents were killed. As such, he's a lot more of a Nord at heart, but he does still have some Orcish charateristics like the bodyshape of an Orc (i.e. he's jacked) and is a natural blacksmith. A lot of his story, especially during the Orsinium line, is also learning to accept himself as the child of two worlds. I'm just not seeing anything past disdain and self-hate for some of these characters. Of course in real life anyone can be anything. But in a fantasy world which is essentially a planet of hats and most races are pretty conservative about how they act, someone who's different is just a bit jarring.

You make an interesting point about Bosmers, though even if they were Bosmer, I don't know if everyone would be that receptive to the way they speak. Eveli is not uncontroversial herself for the way she speaks. Somehow an abundance of that sort of vernacular doesn't feel natural in Elder Scrolls. So, for me anyway, it's less because they're not typical Altmer, and more that they're not typical Tamrielite.

OsUfi

Ech, can't please everyone. I didn't mind Tan's flirting and personality, her story felt out of place though.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's their overuse of modern lingo like "taking up space," that does it. They feel like a Marvel character but Marvel movies are set in a current setting.

For me, the High Isle story line felt like a Marvel film. Serious situation with endless quips. An amusing romp first time through, but it's the only main quest I absolutely book it through, skipping all dialogue at high speed on a repeat run.

That said, I think my partner really enjoys the High Isle story.

Ech, can't please everyone.

tomofhyrule

BretonMage wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I get that "I'm nothing like my race's stereotype!" is a great source of story conflict (heck, I love using that as a springboard for my own backstories), but even still there are a few points that I will still call in. For example, my main is an Orc, but he was raised by a Nord couple after his stronghold fell just after he was born and his parents were killed. As such, he's a lot more of a Nord at heart, but he does still have some Orcish charateristics like the bodyshape of an Orc (i.e. he's jacked) and is a natural blacksmith. A lot of his story, especially during the Orsinium line, is also learning to accept himself as the child of two worlds. I'm just not seeing anything past disdain and self-hate for some of these characters. Of course in real life anyone can be anything. But in a fantasy world which is essentially a planet of hats and most races are pretty conservative about how they act, someone who's different is just a bit jarring.

You make an interesting point about Bosmers, though even if they were Bosmer, I don't know if everyone would be that receptive to the way they speak. Eveli is not uncontroversial herself for the way she speaks. Somehow an abundance of that sort of vernacular doesn't feel natural in Elder Scrolls. So, for me anyway, it's less because they're not typical Altmer, and more that they're not typical Tamrielite.

On a related note, I think that them being Altmer but not acting as such is also another reason people aren’t meshing with them.

Altmer are one of the more popular TES races. There were threads asking for an Altmer Companion since Companions were first introduced. And then we finally got one… who is utterly unlike an Altmer in almost every possible way.

Granted, Tan’s existence doesn’t mean we won’t ever get a traditional Altmer (we got a second Khajiit before any Nord/Orc/Bosmer), but it’s not hard to consider that people who were excited about getting an Altmer Companion do almost feel ‘cheated’ in a way.

But yes, your point about their vernacular (and appearance) is also completely valid. Tanlorin does take me out of the universe completely. I’m sure some people enjoy the #resist personality and look they have, but it feels way more like 2024 Earth than 2E Tamriel.

smallhammer

Turn off the game sound, and enjoy your favourite gaming music instead :-D

It is annoying, and I call her; her. Not they. because she is only one? I don't get that kind'a talk.

Syldras

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I get that "I'm nothing like my race's stereotype!" is a great source of story conflict (heck, I love using that as a springboard for my own backstories), but even still there are a few points that I will still call in.

I have the impression - and that's, I like to emphasize, is only my personal speculation - that they shy away from showing the game's cultures too negatively in ESO. So in general, they toned it down a lot, and even more with the companions, maybe because they think that would make them even more "likeable".

But I really do see a general shift. While in reality, there's a broad variety of different philosophies, ideas of morals, societal norms and habits, some of which are even contradictory between different cultures - history shows that - , in ESO everyone seems to roughly have the same ideas now, and aspects that are seen as negative from today's real world perspective (and often rightly so, if we're talking about the real world - but this game takes place in a different world in a pseudo-"historical" era) are limited to small groups or organizations in the game that then also get labeled as "the bad ones" or at least some subgroup of their culture.

JemadarofCaerSalis

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I get that "I'm nothing like my race's stereotype!" is a great source of story conflict (heck, I love using that as a springboard for my own backstories), but even still there are a few points that I will still call in. For example, my main is an Orc, but he was raised by a Nord couple after his stronghold fell just after he was born and his parents were killed. As such, he's a lot more of a Nord at heart, but he does still have some Orcish charateristics like the bodyshape of an Orc (i.e. he's jacked) and is a natural blacksmith. A lot of his story, especially during the Orsinium line, is also learning to accept himself as the child of two worlds. I'm just not seeing anything past disdain and self-hate for some of these characters. Of course in real life anyone can be anything. But in a fantasy world which is essentially a planet of hats and most races are pretty conservative about how they act, someone who's different is just a bit jarring.

Personally, I don't mind if they aren't the stereotypical character (any companion) of their race, as long as they are interesting and more than just one dimensional.

I could see an argument being made that the type of person from most of the races that would be willing to basically give up their entire life and travel with someone whose life is constantly in danger, putting those around them in danger, are less likely to be the 'stereotypical' person from that race. As you said, someone who is different, in this type of setting, would be jarring, and would likely be ostracized and thus likely to be more willing to wander.

That said, as stated, when a character is so stereotypically NOT the stereotype of their race, they come across as one dimensional, because it doesn't seem 'natural' that they are like that. IE, Zerith isn't a typical Khajiit, but there is a reason for that. He still has Khajiit beliefs and mannerisms, just not necessarily the ones we are used to seeing. There are some other characters (quest characters) where you find out that they don't act like the stereotype for their race because they were found by a different race as very young children, and were raised by that other race.

Maybe I am ascribing too much to the writers (most likely am) but in some cases it makes it seem like they are going for a 'what exactly is inherent to this race and what is learned behavior?' By Zerith and Ember, we can infer that the speech patterns are likely learned behavior.

With Tanlorin, their entire character and behavior just comes across as flat to me. They aren't really a character, but rather a caricature. Instead of being a stereotypical Altmer, they come across as if someone found a checklist for a stereotypical 'bubbly, happy go lucky, not like other Altmers' character. Every single aspect of them comes across like it was simply meant to tick some checkbox somewhere, rather than it would make a good and/or interesting character. The reasons they give for 'not being like other Altmer' come across as rather one dimensional, at least to me, and their entire personality is just annoying to me.

As for them being altmer specifically, I will be forever disappointed in them. I need my long haired, shy, good looking, clean shaven male altmer scholar! *pouts* But, I would be much less disappointed in them, if they had just been a better character altogether, rather than the caricature we got.

sans-culottes

tomofhyrule wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I get that "I'm nothing like my race's stereotype!" is a great source of story conflict (heck, I love using that as a springboard for my own backstories), but even still there are a few points that I will still call in. For example, my main is an Orc, but he was raised by a Nord couple after his stronghold fell just after he was born and his parents were killed. As such, he's a lot more of a Nord at heart, but he does still have some Orcish charateristics like the bodyshape of an Orc (i.e. he's jacked) and is a natural blacksmith. A lot of his story, especially during the Orsinium line, is also learning to accept himself as the child of two worlds. I'm just not seeing anything past disdain and self-hate for some of these characters. Of course in real life anyone can be anything. But in a fantasy world which is essentially a planet of hats and most races are pretty conservative about how they act, someone who's different is just a bit jarring.

You make an interesting point about Bosmers, though even if they were Bosmer, I don't know if everyone would be that receptive to the way they speak. Eveli is not uncontroversial herself for the way she speaks. Somehow an abundance of that sort of vernacular doesn't feel natural in Elder Scrolls. So, for me anyway, it's less because they're not typical Altmer, and more that they're not typical Tamrielite.

Granted, Tan’s existence doesn’t mean we won’t ever get a traditional Altmer (we got a second Khajiit before any Nord/Orc/Bosmer), but it’s not hard to consider that people who were excited about getting an Altmer Companion do almost feel ‘cheated’ in a way.

That we got a second Khajiit companion before these other races was disappointing. This annoyed me far more than anything else that’s been discussed thus far, honestly.

tomofhyrule

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I get that "I'm nothing like my race's stereotype!" is a great source of story conflict (heck, I love using that as a springboard for my own backstories), but even still there are a few points that I will still call in. For example, my main is an Orc, but he was raised by a Nord couple after his stronghold fell just after he was born and his parents were killed. As such, he's a lot more of a Nord at heart, but he does still have some Orcish charateristics like the bodyshape of an Orc (i.e. he's jacked) and is a natural blacksmith. A lot of his story, especially during the Orsinium line, is also learning to accept himself as the child of two worlds. I'm just not seeing anything past disdain and self-hate for some of these characters. Of course in real life anyone can be anything. But in a fantasy world which is essentially a planet of hats and most races are pretty conservative about how they act, someone who's different is just a bit jarring.

Personally, I don't mind if they aren't the stereotypical character (any companion) of their race, as long as they are interesting and more than just one dimensional.

I could see an argument being made that the type of person from most of the races that would be willing to basically give up their entire life and travel with someone whose life is constantly in danger, putting those around them in danger, are less likely to be the 'stereotypical' person from that race. As you said, someone who is different, in this type of setting, would be jarring, and would likely be ostracized and thus likely to be more willing to wander.

That said, as stated, when a character is so stereotypically NOT the stereotype of their race, they come across as one dimensional, because it doesn't seem 'natural' that they are like that. IE, Zerith isn't a typical Khajiit, but there is a reason for that. He still has Khajiit beliefs and mannerisms, just not necessarily the ones we are used to seeing. There are some other characters (quest characters) where you find out that they don't act like the stereotype for their race because they were found by a different race as very young children, and were raised by that other race.

Maybe I am ascribing too much to the writers (most likely am) but in some cases it makes it seem like they are going for a 'what exactly is inherent to this race and what is learned behavior?' By Zerith and Ember, we can infer that the speech patterns are likely learned behavior.

With Tanlorin, their entire character and behavior just comes across as flat to me. They aren't really a character, but rather a caricature. Instead of being a stereotypical Altmer, they come across as if someone found a checklist for a stereotypical 'bubbly, happy go lucky, not like other Altmers' character. Every single aspect of them comes across like it was simply meant to tick some checkbox somewhere, rather than it would make a good and/or interesting character. The reasons they give for 'not being like other Altmer' come across as rather one dimensional, at least to me, and their entire personality is just annoying to me.

As for them being altmer specifically, I will be forever disappointed in them. I need my long haired, shy, good looking, clean shaven male altmer scholar! *pouts* But, I would be much less disappointed in them, if they had just been a better character altogether, rather than the caricature we got.

Yeah, I think that is the issue. It’s not that they’re not “100% Altmer,” it’s that if feels like someone made a list of Altmer traits and said “ok, now let’s give Tanlorin the comically opposite trait for every one of these checkboxes.”

Sure, a Planet of Hats like the TES universe where each race can be reduced to a personality trait or two does make for lazy-seeming writing. But there are plenty of examples of TES characters who feel three-dimensional and part of their culture as well (see everyone on the Wrothgar storyline. And unfortunately literally nobody in the High Isle line).

I also think it’s tough to write characters to have racial biases and traits while also accounting for modern sensibility and politics, and that will always be a factor in writing characters for RPGs. For example I, as a 21st century human, understand that my values are (and should be) different from a 2nd Era Altmer, so I will look at those characters as products of their time and environment and not judge them based on modern sensibilities. But there are also some people who will not respect characters who don’t share their modern values and will not appreciate characters who don’t share their values even if it doesn’t make sense in-universe. It is a tightrope act to try to make something seem believable in-universe without falling too far into making the world seem too oppressive for the modern audience.

My big example there is Orc Strongholds, since I’m a huge fan of Orcs in general. Wrothgar has an entire quest with the point of a power struggle for the chieftainship, and it’s stated multiple times what follows the Code of Mauloch and what doesn’t. A woman as an Orc Chief is presented as inconceivable and counter to the Code. The Code has strict roles for every member of the society, and there are even basegame examples in Betnikh where a daughter of the chief must make the choice to either live up to the Code or go into exile. And then we get WSkyrim, featuring a female Orc Chief in Mor Khazgur, and nobody cares (despite Mor Khazgur existing in Skyrim 1000 years later and still upholding the Code). Wait, what?

Now I (the human who plays the game) believe in equality between genders and there is nothing wrong with a woman leading a tribe. But to a stronghold Orc in this era, that is unthinkable (meanwhile, a non-stronghold Orc would likely be amenable to a woman leader and even other racial groups like Altmer would fully support it). Not to mention the awkward implications that arise from the previous games taking place later in the world’s history, which mean some societies get less progressive over time. The chieftainess existing in WSkyrim essentially trivializes the conflict central to that one Wrothgar quest. And so because of that, it feels wrong to me - not because “ew woman leading,” but because that specific society would have that view and for them not to takes me out of the world. Unfortunately, some people would take that objection as “oh, well you, the human, are just sexist since you don’t like it” because they expect everyone to want to see their values represented in game, and people arguing the opposite must mean that those others just don’t like women in charge.

Soarora

smallhammer wrote: »

Turn off the game sound, and enjoy your favourite gaming music instead :-D

It is annoying, and I call her; her. Not they. because she is only one? I don't get that kind'a talk.

I don’t care what you call the companion but to explain the grammar: “they” can and is used singularly, and the origins of using it singularly go back quite a while. After all, we don’t always call people “he” when we don’t know *their* gender. It’s just one of those things people are overthinking now when there wasn’t any problem previously.

sans-culottes

smallhammer wrote: »

Turn off the game sound, and enjoy your favourite gaming music instead :-D

It is annoying, and I call her; her. Not they. because she is only one? I don't get that kind'a talk.

One of the cool things about English pronouns: “they” has historically been both a singular and plural pronoun. This is not a new linguistic development—despite what some folks may say.

For more information, I encourage you to review this informative OED entry: https://www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-history-of-singular-they?tl=true.

smallhammer

Thanks for info folks. Being a person who has English as my third language, I didn't realize this :-D