Do we get to tell Tanlorin to back off?

JemadarofCaerSalis

tomofhyrule wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I get that "I'm nothing like my race's stereotype!" is a great source of story conflict (heck, I love using that as a springboard for my own backstories), but even still there are a few points that I will still call in. For example, my main is an Orc, but he was raised by a Nord couple after his stronghold fell just after he was born and his parents were killed. As such, he's a lot more of a Nord at heart, but he does still have some Orcish charateristics like the bodyshape of an Orc (i.e. he's jacked) and is a natural blacksmith. A lot of his story, especially during the Orsinium line, is also learning to accept himself as the child of two worlds. I'm just not seeing anything past disdain and self-hate for some of these characters. Of course in real life anyone can be anything. But in a fantasy world which is essentially a planet of hats and most races are pretty conservative about how they act, someone who's different is just a bit jarring.

Personally, I don't mind if they aren't the stereotypical character (any companion) of their race, as long as they are interesting and more than just one dimensional.

I could see an argument being made that the type of person from most of the races that would be willing to basically give up their entire life and travel with someone whose life is constantly in danger, putting those around them in danger, are less likely to be the 'stereotypical' person from that race. As you said, someone who is different, in this type of setting, would be jarring, and would likely be ostracized and thus likely to be more willing to wander.

That said, as stated, when a character is so stereotypically NOT the stereotype of their race, they come across as one dimensional, because it doesn't seem 'natural' that they are like that. IE, Zerith isn't a typical Khajiit, but there is a reason for that. He still has Khajiit beliefs and mannerisms, just not necessarily the ones we are used to seeing. There are some other characters (quest characters) where you find out that they don't act like the stereotype for their race because they were found by a different race as very young children, and were raised by that other race.

Maybe I am ascribing too much to the writers (most likely am) but in some cases it makes it seem like they are going for a 'what exactly is inherent to this race and what is learned behavior?' By Zerith and Ember, we can infer that the speech patterns are likely learned behavior.

With Tanlorin, their entire character and behavior just comes across as flat to me. They aren't really a character, but rather a caricature. Instead of being a stereotypical Altmer, they come across as if someone found a checklist for a stereotypical 'bubbly, happy go lucky, not like other Altmers' character. Every single aspect of them comes across like it was simply meant to tick some checkbox somewhere, rather than it would make a good and/or interesting character. The reasons they give for 'not being like other Altmer' come across as rather one dimensional, at least to me, and their entire personality is just annoying to me.

As for them being altmer specifically, I will be forever disappointed in them. I need my long haired, shy, good looking, clean shaven male altmer scholar! *pouts* But, I would be much less disappointed in them, if they had just been a better character altogether, rather than the caricature we got.

Yeah, I think that is the issue. It’s not that they’re not “100% Altmer,” it’s that if feels like someone made a list of Altmer traits and said “ok, now let’s give Tanlorin the comically opposite trait for every one of these checkboxes.”

Sure, a Planet of Hats like the TES universe where each race can be reduced to a personality trait or two does make for lazy-seeming writing. But there are plenty of examples of TES characters who feel three-dimensional and part of their culture as well (see everyone on the Wrothgar storyline. And unfortunately literally nobody in the High Isle line).

I also think it’s tough to write characters to have racial biases and traits while also accounting for modern sensibility and politics, and that will always be a factor in writing characters for RPGs. For example I, as a 21st century human, understand that my values are (and should be) different from a 2nd Era Altmer, so I will look at those characters as products of their time and environment and not judge them based on modern sensibilities. But there are also some people who will not respect characters who don’t share their modern values and will not appreciate characters who don’t share their values even if it doesn’t make sense in-universe. It is a tightrope act to try to make something seem believable in-universe without falling too far into making the world seem too oppressive for the modern audience.

My big example there is Orc Strongholds, since I’m a huge fan of Orcs in general. Wrothgar has an entire quest with the point of a power struggle for the chieftainship, and it’s stated multiple times what follows the Code of Mauloch and what doesn’t. A woman as an Orc Chief is presented as inconceivable and counter to the Code. The Code has strict roles for every member of the society, and there are even basegame examples in Betnikh where a daughter of the chief must make the choice to either live up to the Code or go into exile. And then we get WSkyrim, featuring a female Orc Chief in Mor Khazgur, and nobody cares (despite Mor Khazgur existing in Skyrim 1000 years later and still upholding the Code). Wait, what?

Now I (the human who plays the game) believe in equality between genders and there is nothing wrong with a woman leading a tribe. But to a stronghold Orc in this era, that is unthinkable (meanwhile, a non-stronghold Orc would likely be amenable to a woman leader and even other racial groups like Altmer would fully support it). Not to mention the awkward implications that arise from the previous games taking place later in the world’s history, which mean some societies get less progressive over time. The chieftainess existing in WSkyrim essentially trivializes the conflict central to that one Wrothgar quest. And so because of that, it feels wrong to me - not because “ew woman leading,” but because that specific society would have that view and for them not to takes me out of the world. Unfortunately, some people would take that objection as “oh, well you, the human, are just sexist since you don’t like it” because they expect everyone to want to see their values represented in game, and people arguing the opposite must mean that those others just don’t like women in charge.

I agree.

I, as a 21st century woman, do find some things 'objectionable', but I also know that, this is how it was. I dislike the multiple wives trope of the orcs, but I accept it, because that is how they are. It is how some people thought. So, yeah, I do find it, well, offputting to find a setting that has a set of rules (or has sets of rules), and they are just thrown out without any explanation, 'just because' some people might find it objectionable.

I also completely agree, people will use anything they can to dismiss opinions they don't like. I have seen it both when people dislike a favored race/person, and for when people LIKE a disfavored race/person (such as I have seen people who say that liking Altmer must mean you like X, Y and Z, because the Altmer are like that, especially in skyrim)

I like it when things are consistent. I might not like the actual set of rules, but if you give that set of rules, then follow them. Don't just give them, and then have a character break them 'just because'. Give them reasons to be able to break that set of rules. Not just one dimensional flat reasons, but robust reasons.

I have also seen the people who will dismiss characters or races because they don't share their values, so completely agree there.

Sadly, I have seen too many people who want their characters to be 'perfect storms', IE, they go down that checklist of things they love or hate and check every single one. A character can't be A and X, and go on with the writing. No, if a character is A and X, they have to be B and Y. Since they are now B and Y, they must be C and Z. and just keep on going down the checklist.

It makes for unrealistic characters, because few people in real life are like that. People are often multi-faceted and have a variety of beliefs, they don't just go down a set of rules checklist and check every single one.

Calastir

Fixed it!

NotaDaedraWorshipper

SatanicSister wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

A lot of the Companions are trying too hard to not be part of their race. Basti is Imperial, but is essentially a Breton in all but name. Ember has nothing to say she's Khajiit beyond a tail, not even her way of speaking. Tanlorin has open disdain for Altmer society. And so on. It seems like the Companions that people like the most are the ones like Sharp and Zerith, who lean into their race and their race's lore rather than the ones who reject it. And again, the internal racial conflict to build a story is not a bad start, but if it's completely ignored (Basti, Ember) or the character just crosses the threshold of being a believable member of that race (Tan), then it just feels like it doesn't work.

I don't think Bastian is actually a "pureblood" Imperial. I might be wrong but it seems to me his father, Lord Martel Hallix, was a Breton. It would definitely explain why Bastian doesn't really look like an Imperial (and appearance-wise, he takes after his father). It could also explain his magical aptitude that is more common in Bretons.
Bastians mother was most definitely an Imperial and it could be the reason why he is technically considered an Imperial too (I think, though I might be wrong here too, the race of a child is determined after the race of the mother).

Bastian definitely looks imperial because he uses the imperial model. No breton can have a nose and cheekbones like that. But his culture and upbringing is the bretonest that has bretoned.
He even was a breton and described as it for some time before the release, but shortly before going live they changed him to an imperial. So we have two companions that are culturally breton.

whitecrow

I think it says a lot that I see Zerith-var everywhere but have only seen Tanlorin once.

TaSheen

whitecrow wrote: »

I think it says a lot that I see Zerith-var everywhere but have only seen Tanlorin once.

I've seen a fair amount of both of them. If I could get past the "sidekick" thing that bothers me so much, I'd probably level both. Of course the other issue for me is the necessity to do combat for so much of their leveling. *sigh*

GloatingSwine

tomofhyrule wrote: »

My big example there is Orc Strongholds, since I’m a huge fan of Orcs in general. Wrothgar has an entire quest with the point of a power struggle for the chieftainship, and it’s stated multiple times what follows the Code of Mauloch and what doesn’t. A woman as an Orc Chief is presented as inconceivable and counter to the Code. The Code has strict roles for every member of the society, and there are even basegame examples in Betnikh where a daughter of the chief must make the choice to either live up to the Code or go into exile. And then we get WSkyrim, featuring a female Orc Chief in Mor Khazgur, and nobody cares (despite Mor Khazgur existing in Skyrim 1000 years later and still upholding the Code). Wait, what?

In the Shatul quest in Wrothgar the idea of a woman as chief isn't unthinkable, it's presented as it being hard for some people to accept and require rather a lot of skulls to be broken before everyone settles down and stops arguing with her.

(Tanlorin is a smug champagne socialist whose attempts at whimsy fall slap bang in the middle of childish non-sequitur.)

WhiteCoatSyndrome

smallhammer wrote: »

Turn off the game sound, and enjoy your favourite gaming music instead :-D

Sadly there are excellent soundtracks in ESO that would then be missed out on, as well as useful sound cues (EX: the sound that plays when an enemy is about to agro on to you).

GloatingSwine wrote: »

In the Shatul quest in Wrothgar the idea of a woman as chief isn't unthinkable, it's presented as it being hard for some people to accept and require rather a lot of skulls to be broken before everyone settles down and stops arguing with her.

I love Laurig’s explanation. He thinks it through and his response is well thought out. Not ‘it could never work!’ but instead ‘it would be an extra hurdle the clan doesn’t need when we’re already in a rough spot.’

Malyore

Syldras wrote: »

[they shy away from showing the game's cultures too negatively in ESO. So in general, they toned it down a lot, and even more with the companions, maybe because they think that would make them even more "likeable".

I agree that they've really tried to pull back on the negative aspects of the different cultures. Or if they do attempt to show it, it feels artificial. Like the character or dialogue was meant to be 100% unlikeable and that's their ONLY feature.

The Saxhleel are my favorite elder scrolls race, I love them. But Dunmer culture is my favorite too. And I love the conflict between the two races. As much as I love those lizard guys, I wish there was more conflict with tamriel in eso. It makes for interesting story and dynamics I think. It's gritty, it's dark, and those elements really set the tone for modern elder scrolls.
Morrowind was, well, Morrowind. Oblivions empire was shown to be having negative impacts on the lives of others and slowly weakening. Skyrims empire is all but lost, with the threat of the dominion growing. There was hate, there was oppression, there was corruption, it was everywhere. It's The Arena, afterall.
ESO on the other hand feels like it's sterilizing those elements because they're worried they'll get cancel cultured or something. It feels like a public relations or political stance they have, rather than an artistic one.

That also makes me wonder why they're pushing back against the way Khajiit speak, suddenly. Ember, I can understand. Zerith.. their older language didn't use that syntax? Are they trying to wash away Khajiit culture too, so that the two companions are more "likeable" for speaking proper English? Or is the Khajiit dialect itself stemmed from racist irl origins that ZOS is trying to now distance from?

Syldras

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Personally, I don't mind if they aren't the stereotypical character (any companion) of their race, as long as they are interesting and more than just one dimensional.

Same here. A well-written and interesting character is the thing I care for most. I never had any above-average interest in Khajiit or Redguards, but I really enjoyed Zerith's story (it's one of the best-written questlines in ESO, in my opinion) and my favorite companion (taking into consideration roleplay aspects such as who my main would get along with best) is Azandar. I'm normally more of a mer person, but it doesn't matter to me that those two are not mer - they're awesome, that's what matters (I know some might disagree with Azandar, but I really like him; although I think part of it is due to the translation into my language - his speech patterns and wording - , which they did extraordinarily well).

But still, I find it quite noticeable that they go for "untraditional" companions so often, and of course I've been wondering why, and I can understand the frustration of players who wish for a more "typical" character, especially if they feel drawn to the specific Tamrielic culture, their habits, their lore, their traditions, etc.

And I think that such a character could be written without resorting to clichés. Because it is true that people are influenced by the place they grew up at, their family, other people surrounding them, their teachers, their peergroup, their culture's values and beliefs and most of all norms. Of course some might question things at some point - which takes a certain intellect and maybe certain character traits, though, like openness and curiosity - but I'd still say everyone carries their cultural influence, some more subtly than others, but everyone is shaped by their surroundings and past experiences, and I don't think it's bad or uncreative to show just that in a character.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I could see an argument being made that the type of person from most of the races that would be willing to basically give up their entire life and travel with someone whose life is constantly in danger, putting those around them in danger, are less likely to be the 'stereotypical' person from that race. As you said, someone who is different, in this type of setting, would be jarring, and would likely be ostracized and thus likely to be more willing to wander.

At that point, I disagree. There are many ordinary people who could see travelling with the Vestige as an advantage. Say a Hlaalu merchant or an Altmer inventor who sees it as an opportunity to travel the whole continent and make business, while being in the company of an experienced fighter, which provides protection on the road. Or maybe a young Orc warrior who sees it as an chance to train and learn (and satisfy his curiosity about seeing the world).

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Maybe I am ascribing too much to the writers (most likely am) but in some cases it makes it seem like they are going for a 'what exactly is inherent to this race and what is learned behavior?' By Zerith and Ember, we can infer that the speech patterns are likely learned behavior.

Considering how speech development in children works (and all the linguistic shifts languages go through over the centuries), it would be very strange if grammar rules were inborn But an amusing thought somehow.

Calastir wrote: »

Fixed it!

I see you're playing a mild-mannered character. The reply of a drunk Orc bandit, an irritable Telvanni wizard or just the average Altmer kinlord certainly would be a little more... energetic.

But now that I see this picture again: The character design is much too "modern". I know that the costume that's used looks decent on other characters, but the coloring here makes it basically look like a modern black leather jacket with a polo shirt underneath or something, especially combined with the purple gummy worm hair and the purple flashy tattoos. It's too much at once, which makes it look like some alt lifestyle gen Z city dweller instead of a person, no matter how unconventional, living in a pseudo-historical, mostly medieval, setting. Also, it's all so flashy, it somehow screams "attention-seeking". If this was an attempt at "minority representation", then I'm not sure if it's done anyone a favor.

tomofhyrule

GloatingSwine wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

My big example there is Orc Strongholds, since I’m a huge fan of Orcs in general. Wrothgar has an entire quest with the point of a power struggle for the chieftainship, and it’s stated multiple times what follows the Code of Mauloch and what doesn’t. A woman as an Orc Chief is presented as inconceivable and counter to the Code. The Code has strict roles for every member of the society, and there are even basegame examples in Betnikh where a daughter of the chief must make the choice to either live up to the Code or go into exile. And then we get WSkyrim, featuring a female Orc Chief in Mor Khazgur, and nobody cares (despite Mor Khazgur existing in Skyrim 1000 years later and still upholding the Code). Wait, what?

In the Shatul quest in Wrothgar the idea of a woman as chief isn't unthinkable, it's presented as it being hard for some people to accept and require rather a lot of skulls to be broken before everyone settles down and stops arguing with her.

That’s what I mean. It’s something that is not just accepted right out without a lot of conflict. There is also the alternate ending with a player Orc where again, it is implied that a female Orc will have a difficult time being accepted because of the culture and the only thing that helps is that the male contender for the chieftainship is “a weakling.”

Laurig would be an example of an Orc who would be willing to serve under a female chief. He even regrets having to fight Ushruka. She, however, has no qualms and intends to lead differently and beat down any who question her. As such, it makes for an interesting thought experiment and a challenge to the cultural norms. It is an in-universe conflict.

On the other hand, rejections of established culture for out-of-universe reasons will feel awkward and forced.

sans-culottes

Syldras wrote: »

But now that I see this picture again: The character design is much too "modern". I know that the costume that's used looks decent on other characters, but the coloring here makes it basically look like a modern black leather jacket with a polo shirt underneath or something, especially combined with the purple gummy worm hair and the purple flashy tattoos. It's too much at once, which makes it look like some alt lifestyle gen Z city dweller instead of a person, no matter how unconventional, living in a pseudo-historical, mostly medieval, setting. Also, it's all so flashy, it somehow screams "attention-seeking". If this was an attempt at "minority representation", then I'm not sure if it's done anyone a favor.

As stated before, I have never seen this look anywhere in the world. I am a city dweller—perhaps even in one of those dreaded coastal cities.

ZOS_Volpe

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