Gutting PvP? Then We Need a Vengeance PvE Mode... It would only be fair, right?

Xzysts

Yes, I know Vengeance is a test only. However, I see the long-term effects of this test ultimately negatively effecting PvP. It is only fair we also do the same to PvE as well. Let's do a PvE Vengeance test and see how "fun" you guys really think it is, shall we?

Please ZOS, do not listen to the overwhelmingly positive feedback of players who do not PvP in any capacity or more than once a year. Do not allow this to alter the core mechanics, customization, and complexity of build diversity to be ruined. As I said, yes I know this is only a short-term test. It still stands though that I believe this will have rippling effects for PvP and will lead to it ultimately being gutted completely. Do not turn something great into a mindless walking simulator. People complain about ballgroups yet there are massive unkillable zergs at each keep basically being just as unkillable as ballgroups. This is not fun.

I want to finish this by saying I am not against change in PvP. There needs to be change... However, do not push it too far. You will lose all of your diehard PvPers. The people filling in the gaps will not play this long term anyways. Not everything has to be on EZ mode. I know many people are against challenging themselves. Do not destroy one group of players to lift up another...

Nathanbreakfast

Every "diverse build" i keep hearing about is broken down into about 5 or 6 meta builds.

You have
1. Immortal magsorcs
2. 1 shot nb stealther
3. Proc autopilot pressure build
4. Immortal healbot
5. Immortal block tank

They all use the same 10 sets. Normal pvp is basically templated already.

Xzysts

Nathanbreakfast wrote: »

Every "diverse build" i keep hearing about is broken down into about 5 or 6 meta builds.

You have
1. Immortal magsorcs
2. 1 shot nb stealther
3. Proc autopilot pressure build
4. Immortal healbot
5. Immortal block tank

They all use the same 10 sets. Normal pvp is basically templated already.

A small portion of players are playing the bottom three "builds" you mentioned. Yes, a lot of classes and builds are using the same sets because ZOS introduced busted sets and hybridization that eliminated diversity. However, a large portion of players are running and fine-tuning builds to their preference. I would disagree that it is templated already. Can it be? Yes, but off meta setups are played often and can compete in the hands of a great player. You would be eliminating that completely.

FolksySpade

Nathanbreakfast wrote: »

Every "diverse build" i keep hearing about is broken down into about 5 or 6 meta builds.

You have
1. Immortal magsorcs
2. 1 shot nb stealther
3. Proc autopilot pressure build
4. Immortal healbot
5. Immortal block tank

They all use the same 10 sets. Normal pvp is basically templated already.

agreed.

Erickson9610

Just make Vengeance a separate campaign. People can then choose which PvP they prefer — nobody has to give up anything.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

I mean, when I tried to get into regular PVP, there was definitely a feeling that my style and preferences didn't matter, and I just had to play with the sets and skills I was "supposed to".

Xzysts

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

I mean, when I tried to get into regular PVP, there was definitely a feeling that my style and preferences didn't matter, and I just had to play with the sets and skills I was "supposed to".

Not everything is effective. Just like PvE. There are metas of course. A skilled player however can make off-meta setups work and excel with them just as well as a meta setup.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

Xzysts wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

I mean, when I tried to get into regular PVP, there was definitely a feeling that my style and preferences didn't matter, and I just had to play with the sets and skills I was "supposed to".

Not everything is effective. Just like PvE. There are metas of course. A skilled player however can make off-meta setups work and excel with them just as well as a meta setup.

Maybe, I suppose the problem then was people not telling me what was necessary, haha.

I am willing to find innovative and off-meta ways of achieving certain goals or whatever (e.g always have major breach, minor vuln, etc.) but no one could tell me what they were, or was willing to.

It seemed very "do this or you're going to die and that's a fact jack" to me.

Stamicka

So first, PvE hasn’t had 8-9 years of extreme performance issues and the purpose of Vengeance was to help identify PvP performance issues. It wasn’t like Vengeance was actually a plan for the developers to simplify combat and remove builds from the game. There’s no reason PvE would need a test like this.

Secondly, I’m not really sure why you’re discrediting “positive feedback from players who do not PvP in any capacity.” It is very significant to see people who do not PvP actually enjoy PvP content.

The population of actual PvPers in ESO is ridiculously low. The fact that Grey Host is the only campaign that regularly fills is a really bad sign considering a filled Grey Host is only about 300 people give or take.

ESO either needs new players coming into PvP or the PvP needs to appeal to a broader range of players. The current state of PvP does not do that whatsoever.

When people say they enjoyed Vengeance, I think many of them are actually saying that they enjoy being on more equal footing with other players, they enjoyed accessible PvP since they didn’t have to worry about researching builds, and they enjoyed large battles and/or an action filled map due to higher population caps.

We can have all of the things above without going as far as Vengeance did with the extremely simplified skills. We just need combat adjustments, reward improvements for PvP, and a more accessible PvP. There’s many ways to go about reaching those goals.

Rohamad_Ali

Why don't we all put the nuclear weapons away and just hope pvp goes back to normal instead of these hostile negotiations for game styles?

Renato90085

like sometime i actually run nude n trial with my friend and group...?it very funny because we make too easy thing be some fun and that all class can play,not only arc dk and necro can play
only fist /guild skill and your class skill

Nathanbreakfast

Xzysts wrote: »

Nathanbreakfast wrote: »

Every "diverse build" i keep hearing about is broken down into about 5 or 6 meta builds.

You have
1. Immortal magsorcs
2. 1 shot nb stealther
3. Proc autopilot pressure build
4. Immortal healbot
5. Immortal block tank

They all use the same 10 sets. Normal pvp is basically templated already.

However, a large portion of players are running and fine-tuning builds to their preference. I would disagree that it is templated already. Can it be? Yes, but off meta setups are played often and can compete in the hands of a great player. You would be eliminating that completely.

A Large portion? You can't be serious right? They absolutely don't, this is a fantasy, sorry. 85% of players who have committed to creating a PVP build are wearing copy paste Youtube setups which consist of a combination of the following sets; Rally, Wretched, Balorgs, Markyn, Maars, Vat Ice Staff, Oakfathers, Shattered, Tarnished. Just because you're wearing 1xV god setup of Pariah, Essence Thief, Vate 2h Maul, Dswing doesn't mean that PVP in it's entirety isn't templated already. PVP is an absolute mess and needs to be purged. My friend list is a GRAVEYARD of, what I would consider, ELITE PVP solo, small group players. They're all gone because what I'm saying is true.

EDIT: I just glazed through a few of your videos. All the setups you're making are from the sets I just mentioned above!! LOL, Cmon man time to wake up. I want highly customizable PVP setup as well, but this game is straight up trash right now and something drastic needs to be done if it is going to remain living. You can only 1vX down so many casuals before they're all gone.

SolarRune

The PVP community has been complaining a lot over recent years about low population caps and lag - and vengeance is a test to see what is possible when things are stripped back.I don't expect this to be a final product - I would expect further tests with things being dripped in - maybe next will be some armor sets to increase the play styles possible, maybe it will be more skills to have wider build diversity and roles.

I haven't seen similar complaints from the PVE community about lag etc, so why would bringing Vengeance into the PVE be of any benefit?

All ZoS are trying to do is respond to the biggest complaints from the PvP community. What Vengeance has proved is that the base game engine with most calculations removed means Cyro can cope with many times the population with very little lag - how we move forward from here remains to be seen. As already mentioned, I don't expect Vengeance to be what comes in. Equally, I would expect some of the changes that has made Vengeance a success to be on the cards for coming into Cyro. Running Vengeance as a separate campaign does nothing to elevate the core issues around pop caps and lag.

TaSheen

SolarRune wrote: »

I haven't seen similar complaints from the PVE community about lag etc, so why would bringing Vengeance into the PVE be of any benefit?

Well, actually, there are pve players who do have major issues:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/658253/zos-massive-spike-in-ping-lag-in-recent-days-what-gives#latest

The linked thread is nearly a year old now, and some of the people posting are probably still having issues today. Note: I'm not one of them, only lag I have is due to satellite being my only available connection.

Xzysts

Nathanbreakfast wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

Nathanbreakfast wrote: »

Every "diverse build" i keep hearing about is broken down into about 5 or 6 meta builds.

You have
1. Immortal magsorcs
2. 1 shot nb stealther
3. Proc autopilot pressure build
4. Immortal healbot
5. Immortal block tank

They all use the same 10 sets. Normal pvp is basically templated already.

However, a large portion of players are running and fine-tuning builds to their preference. I would disagree that it is templated already. Can it be? Yes, but off meta setups are played often and can compete in the hands of a great player. You would be eliminating that completely.

A Large portion? You can't be serious right? They absolutely don't, this is a fantasy, sorry. 85% of players who have committed to creating a PVP build are wearing copy paste Youtube setups which consist of a combination of the following sets; Rally, Wretched, Balorgs, Markyn, Maars, Vat Ice Staff, Oakfathers, Shattered, Tarnished. Just because you're wearing 1xV god setup of Pariah, Essence Thief, Vate 2h Maul, Dswing doesn't mean that PVP in it's entirety isn't templated already. PVP is an absolute mess and needs to be purged. My friend list is a GRAVEYARD of, what I would consider, ELITE PVP solo, small group players. They're all gone because what I'm saying is true.

EDIT: I just glazed through a few of your videos. All the setups you're making are from the sets I just mentioned above!! LOL, Cmon man time to wake up. I want highly customizable PVP setup as well, but this game is straight up trash right now and something drastic needs to be done if it is going to remain living. You can only 1vX down so many casuals before they're all gone.

Yes a large portion of the players I speak of mix and match and run a lot of their own preferences on “copy paste builds” go look at my comments and see. Many players will state “I am running something similar blah blah” or ask about running a different set or weapon choice or monster gear choice etc. I hear this same sentiment in game. Rallying cry is one of the best sets in the game and I hardly see it anymore. If it was truly templated and everyone just copy pasted I would see it on every player. Hardly anyone runs it anymore. Do a lot of players still run it? Yes, but you’re wrong with it all being copy paste.

Of course I post meta setups. Why wouldn’t I? If you continue to look I post a lot of off meta setups as well. There will always be sets and items that perform way better than everything else. Is that the players fault for choosing to run them? Hybridization nuked build diversity a lot, but you cannot say it is completely templated and everyone is running a copy paste build. That is simply false. As I said, many people will take a “meta copy past build” and fine tune it to how they play. I hear it from people all the time.

I never stated I am against change in PvP, there needs to be change. However, Vengeance is not it. Yes I know, this is a test. I am stating I am purely against the gutting of PvP mechanics, combat, sets, customizations, skills, etc.

Besides the current influx of players into Cyrodiil will vanish shortly even if this was made into a permanent change. They are here and gone as soon as the double AP ends. You want to bring more players into PvP? Make it more rewarding to play. These people only want to play it when it is rewarding to do so… during double AP events. Start giving better rewards in PvP.

Xzysts

SolarRune wrote: »

The PVP community has been complaining a lot over recent years about low population caps and lag - and vengeance is a test to see what is possible when things are stripped back.I don't expect this to be a final product - I would expect further tests with things being dripped in - maybe next will be some armor sets to increase the play styles possible, maybe it will be more skills to have wider build diversity and roles.

I haven't seen similar complaints from the PVE community about lag etc, so why would bringing Vengeance into the PVE be of any benefit?

All ZoS are trying to do is respond to the biggest complaints from the PvP community. What Vengeance has proved is that the base game engine with most calculations removed means Cyro can cope with many times the population with very little lag - how we move forward from here remains to be seen. As already mentioned, I don't expect Vengeance to be what comes in. Equally, I would expect some of the changes that has made Vengeance a success to be on the cards for coming into Cyro. Running Vengeance as a separate campaign does nothing to elevate the core issues around pop caps and lag.

It’s not about the lag in the context I am speaking of. See ZOS is doing this for a lag test. The PvE players are coming in asking for this to be a permanent change. Mostly due to skill issues that they have. They do not like that people who have invested thousands of hours in PvP can shred them. So they want this to change and make it easy and dumb it down.

SOOOOO, I say do this to PvE too. If they like it so much and it’s a ton of fun… let’s make PvE just like this. Why not right?

I am sure many would object to their game mode being completely gutted. See where I am coming from? It would be destructive for the game in it’s entirety.

HatchetHaro

You say that like it's some massive "gotcha" against PvE players enjoying the Vengeance Campaign.

I'm a PvE main, and I'll just say, sure! Let us see some templatized PvE!

Look, endgame PvE is already specific classes in specific roles in specific gear; everything is already min-maxed. Removing the illusion of choice in stats, gear, and CP makes zero difference in how we run PvE content; we will still aim to find the best combination of classes, roles, and strategies for the content that we will still do.

anadandy

Xzysts wrote: »

The PvE players are coming in asking for this to be a permanent change. Mostly due to skill issues that they have. They do not like that people who have invested thousands of hours in PvP can shred them. So they want this to change and make it easy and dumb it down.

It's so shocking that new players don't want to try PVP as it is with attitudes like this. So. Shocking.

Xzysts

HatchetHaro wrote: »

You say that like it's some massive "gotcha" against PvE players enjoying the Vengeance Campaign.

I'm a PvE main, and I'll just say, sure! Let us see some templatized PvE!

Look, endgame PvE is already specific classes in specific roles in specific gear; everything is already min-maxed. Removing the illusion of choice in stats, gear, and CP makes zero difference in how we run PvE content; we will still aim to find the best combination of classes, roles, and strategies for the content that we will still do.

No no no, not templated PvE. Completely gutted. No passives, no food, no CP, no mundus, etc. just class skills only no morphs. No sets, etc.

Xzysts

anadandy wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

The PvE players are coming in asking for this to be a permanent change. Mostly due to skill issues that they have. They do not like that people who have invested thousands of hours in PvP can shred them. So they want this to change and make it easy and dumb it down.

It's so shocking that new players don't want to try PVP as it is with attitudes like this. So. Shocking.

It is not an attitude it is factual. Why not do this with PvE also? I mean tons of players don’t want to play eso because it is too difficult, too grindy, etc. so make PvE the same exact thing.

HatchetHaro

Xzysts wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

You say that like it's some massive "gotcha" against PvE players enjoying the Vengeance Campaign.

I'm a PvE main, and I'll just say, sure! Let us see some templatized PvE!

Look, endgame PvE is already specific classes in specific roles in specific gear; everything is already min-maxed. Removing the illusion of choice in stats, gear, and CP makes zero difference in how we run PvE content; we will still aim to find the best combination of classes, roles, and strategies for the content that we will still do.

No no no, not templated PvE. Completely gutted. No passives, no food, no CP, no mundus, etc. just class skills only no morphs. No sets, etc.

That's literally what "templated" means lmao, same as how Vengeance characters are templated.

Go right on ahead! I don't see why not. It's not like it'll radically change how we play.

SolarRune

With comments like that i really dont understand how ZoS can win at all. People complain, ZOS put together a test, and people are concerned that the test worked and "HORROR" what was tested may influence the future direction.

You have said it yourself, it's always been flagged as a test, the fact it appears to appeal to another part of the community I would say is a great thing, and may help in keeping GH for the hardcore players who like that style. I am going to miss vengeance when it is gone, but will go back to Greyhost with my normal groups and reduce my time in PVP down to when they run.

HatchetHaro

Xzysts wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

You say that like it's some massive "gotcha" against PvE players enjoying the Vengeance Campaign.

I'm a PvE main, and I'll just say, sure! Let us see some templatized PvE!

Look, endgame PvE is already specific classes in specific roles in specific gear; everything is already min-maxed. Removing the illusion of choice in stats, gear, and CP makes zero difference in how we run PvE content; we will still aim to find the best combination of classes, roles, and strategies for the content that we will still do.

No no no, not templated PvE. Completely gutted. No passives, no food, no CP, no mundus, etc. just class skills only no morphs. No sets, etc.

That's templated lmao. Go right on ahead!

[snip]

Again, you're treating your argument like it's some form of gotcha against PvE players liking how Vengeance turned out, without any inkling of understanding of how actual PvE works.

I am saying that if that's implemented, it won't affect PvErs like how you think it would.

A week-long performance test just proved that Cyrodiil PvP as it is is inherently flawed, imbalanced, and unfun to most players.

All the actual PvPers (I'm talking hardcore 350k AP per day PvPers) I've run this test campaign with actually liked it. Sorry you found it unfun.

Xzysts

SolarRune wrote: »

With comments like that i really dont understand how ZoS can win at all. People complain, ZOS put together a test, and people are concerned that the test worked and "HORROR" what was tested may influence the future direction.

You have said it yourself, it's always been flagged as a test, the fact it appears to appeal to another part of the community I would say is a great thing, and may help in keeping GH for the hardcore players who like that style. I am going to miss vengeance when it is gone, but will go back to Greyhost with my normal groups and reduce my time in PVP down to when they run.

ZOS test is to confirm what makes the game lag. It’s not a test to see how fast PvE players can run to the forums to destroy the only populated PvP game mode left lol.

Nathanbreakfast

Yes a large portion of the players I speak of mix and match and run a lot of their own preferences on “copy paste builds” go look at my comments and see.

People wearing Tarnished/Balorgs/Wretched/Markyn then swapping a couple traits and CP points around does not make their build any less copy paste.

Rallying cry is one of the best sets in the game and I hardly see it anymore.

Everybody I know is dead, I collect unemployement and PVP 20 hours per day. Rallying cry is everywhere, you are crazy.

Of course I post meta setups. Why wouldn’t I? If you continue to look I post a lot of off meta setups as well.

85% of players are wearing copy paste setups. You may not, I don't either. I wear Torc 75% of the time.

but you cannot say it is completely templated and everyone is running a copy paste build

Yes I can lol

Juzz

Aye, that’s gonna be fair, also it’s needed to cut crafts, than cut everything, kill eso ending’ as a mobile idler - fair fate for eso in an age of idiocracy rising.

*sar’bloody’casm* for so called vengeance fans.

xylena_lazarow

I don't miss sets or cp at all, just give me back my skill lines and meatbag siege.

Xzysts

Juzz wrote: »

Aye, that’s gonna be fair, also it’s needed to cut crafts, than cut everything, kill eso ending’ as a mobile idler - fair fate for eso in age of idiocracy rising.

*sar’bloody’casm* for so called vengeance fans.

Beautifully stated.

SolarRune

Xzysts wrote: »

ZOS test is to confirm what makes the game lag. It’s not a test to see how fast PvE players can run to the forums to destroy the only populated PvP game mode left lol.

I don't think anyone is looking to destroy anything - I've seen a mixed reception to it as well, but it's not as simple as PVE vs PVP - there are plenty of PVPers I have run with that said they have enjoyed the campaign - equally there are PVErs who prefer the old style campaign - so painting things that way is just being divisive for no reason.

There has always been the PVP vs PVE arguments, but maybe the takeaway from this testing is that they just need separate balancing, but that the balancing needs to acknowledge the things discovered from Vengeance (separate balancing is again something asked for by many because of the different playstyles influencing each other too much)

valenwood_vegan

Doesn't really seem unfair to me that they're finally focusing some attention on pvp after years of complaints. Look, I think it would be terrible if vengeance simply replaced the current cyrodiil, but I also don't think zos should ignore the obvious performance gains that were right there for everyone to see, and the fact that it garnered a positive reception from some of the playerbase, including new blood that was previously completely uninterested in pvp.

I think they should continue testing with the goal of improving performance in regular cyrodiil without replacing it with template pvp, but also continue to work on vengeance as a potential alternate mode to attract a different audience. I just don't see how it's a bad thing that a lot of players are trying and enjoying and talking about pvp in a way that we haven't seen in years.

Anyway, one is absolutely entitled to have a negative opinion about vengeance and it might be more effective to provide zos with detailed feedback about the negatives, rather than to lash out at other players who ultimately aren't deciding the future of cyrodiil.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

I think the main message isn't that Vengeance is good and should be preserved as is.

I think the main message is that players who put a thousand hours into PVP should win *because they put a thousand hours into PVP*, not because they are running better gear.

Better gear should help, but right now (outside Vengeance) think gear and setup determines more losses/wins in PVP than player skill.

Among the top 10% of PVP players, skill may dominate (not informed enough to know) but that is after macros, routines/rotations, and gear/skills) setups are fully realized and most players would rather not template into a few very specific, narrow builds. It's better to just have no builds at all.