Gutting PvP? Then We Need a Vengeance PvE Mode... It would only be fair, right?

Juzz

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Doesn't really seem unfair to me that they're finally focusing some attention on pvp after years of complaints. Look, I think it would be terrible if vengeance simply replaced the current cyrodiil, but I also don't think zos should ignore the obvious performance gains that were right there for everyone to see, and the fact that it garnered a positive reception from some of the playerbase, including new blood that was previously completely uninterested in pvp.

I think they should continue testing with the goal of improving performance in regular cyrodiil without replacing it with template pvp, but also continue to work on vengeance as a potential alternate mode to attract a different audience. I just don't see how it's a bad thing that a lot of players are trying and enjoying and talking about pvp in a way that we haven't seen in years.

Anyway, one is absolutely entitled to have a negative opinion about vengeance and it might be more effective to provide zos with detailed feedback about the negatives, rather than to lash out at other players who ultimately aren't deciding the future of cyrodiil.

With all due respect, but the main thing matters in such a case it’s The Consequences, which we can see around the forums this week, where nobrain zerg looks so attractive instead of learning at least basics to survive than become effective in pvp how it’s intended. Simplification’s a natural addiction and a dangerous stuff to play with

C is for Consecquences and always was

Sluggy

SolarRune wrote: »

The PVP community has been complaining a lot over recent years about low population caps and lag - and vengeance is a test to see what is possible when things are stripped back.I don't expect this to be a final product - I would expect further tests with things being dripped in - maybe next will be some armor sets to increase the play styles possible, maybe it will be more skills to have wider build diversity and roles.

I haven't seen similar complaints from the PVE community about lag etc, so why would bringing Vengeance into the PVE be of any benefit?

All ZoS are trying to do is respond to the biggest complaints from the PvP community. What Vengeance has proved is that the base game engine with most calculations removed means Cyro can cope with many times the population with very little lag - how we move forward from here remains to be seen. As already mentioned, I don't expect Vengeance to be what comes in. Equally, I would expect some of the changes that has made Vengeance a success to be on the cards for coming into Cyro. Running Vengeance as a separate campaign does nothing to elevate the core issues around pop caps and lag.

To be honest, *I* now have a complaint about PvE lol

I'm not saying I want to do away with all of the stuff that normal combat has but I can certainly feel a huge difference in performance now. Just trying to do the ticket event stuff today felt absolutely awful! Skills out of sync. Animations not playing. Lag spikes constantly. Difficulty interacting with objects. Constantly being told I'm out of range when I'm standing still right next to something!

The one thing I can say for certain is that I really had no issues with that stuff during Vengeance and seeing just how much of a difference it makes for the server to reduce traffic and calculations that much shows me just how much is possible but also just how much work needs to be done. I really don't know if I can go back to enjoying the game as it was before knowing that it could perform so much better. The itch was finally scratched when I could just walk in or out of a door on the first try. Use a potion with a single button press. And mount up instantly after the final person I fought was dead. Going back to normal laggy gameplay even the lesser stuff that we see in PvE just feels really bad and makes me not want to play.

spartaxoxo

We have a "vengeance pve" and it's called normal mode. It's successful

Renato90085

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

You say that like it's some massive "gotcha" against PvE players enjoying the Vengeance Campaign.

I'm a PvE main, and I'll just say, sure! Let us see some templatized PvE!

Look, endgame PvE is already specific classes in specific roles in specific gear; everything is already min-maxed. Removing the illusion of choice in stats, gear, and CP makes zero difference in how we run PvE content; we will still aim to find the best combination of classes, roles, and strategies for the content that we will still do.

No no no, not templated PvE. Completely gutted. No passives, no food, no CP, no mundus, etc. just class skills only no morphs. No sets, etc.

That's literally what "templated" means lmao, same as how Vengeance characters are templated.

Go right on ahead! I don't see why not. It's not like it'll radically change how we play.

i think you are right,you can delete weapon skill /guild skill/set/cp and give we a Mode
but nothing will happen in endgame pve, we will still stuck dk/arc/necro meta, because other 4 class cant do good work if they only use class skill
and we cant lost necro ult and Stone Giant
not sure maybe if you are in this mode do vka/vdsr trifecta will add 1-2 templar in group
like now.

HatchetHaro

Renato90085 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

You say that like it's some massive "gotcha" against PvE players enjoying the Vengeance Campaign.

I'm a PvE main, and I'll just say, sure! Let us see some templatized PvE!

Look, endgame PvE is already specific classes in specific roles in specific gear; everything is already min-maxed. Removing the illusion of choice in stats, gear, and CP makes zero difference in how we run PvE content; we will still aim to find the best combination of classes, roles, and strategies for the content that we will still do.

No no no, not templated PvE. Completely gutted. No passives, no food, no CP, no mundus, etc. just class skills only no morphs. No sets, etc.

That's literally what "templated" means lmao, same as how Vengeance characters are templated.

Go right on ahead! I don't see why not. It's not like it'll radically change how we play.

i think you are right,you can delete weapon skill /guild skill/set/cp and give we a Mode
but nothing will happen in endgame pve, we will still stuck dk/arc/necro meta, because other 4 class cant do good work if they only use class skill
and we cant lost necro ult and Stone Giant
not sure maybe if you are in this mode do vka/vdsr trifecta will add 1-2 templar in group
like now.

It would really depend on what they introduce for Vengeance skills. Either way, there's going to be a min-max comp ready within a few days of Vengeance PvE appearing on the PTS. As for how doable the content is? That's just going to be balance.

On a slight tangent, it's not like that's a realistic counterpart to what OP is dooming about right now. I don't get how some people get confronted with the fact that something is a performance test and just immediately jump to "oh wow this is permanent and they're going to completely and utterly gut PvP forever"; it's like the entire concept of "limit testing the bare minimum" just doesn't even exist to them.

Any balancing changes that happen to Cyrodiil after Vengeance will fall somewhere in between Vengeance and Live; whether it be something drastic like "Vengeance but with added weapon abilities" or just "back to no proc-sets", we don't know.

And if reducing Cyrodiil to its bare minimum makes so many people happy, maybe Cyrodiil as it is now is just bloated with bull.

Renato90085

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

You say that like it's some massive "gotcha" against PvE players enjoying the Vengeance Campaign.

I'm a PvE main, and I'll just say, sure! Let us see some templatized PvE!

Look, endgame PvE is already specific classes in specific roles in specific gear; everything is already min-maxed. Removing the illusion of choice in stats, gear, and CP makes zero difference in how we run PvE content; we will still aim to find the best combination of classes, roles, and strategies for the content that we will still do.

No no no, not templated PvE. Completely gutted. No passives, no food, no CP, no mundus, etc. just class skills only no morphs. No sets, etc.

That's literally what "templated" means lmao, same as how Vengeance characters are templated.

Go right on ahead! I don't see why not. It's not like it'll radically change how we play.

i think you are right,you can delete weapon skill /guild skill/set/cp and give we a Mode
but nothing will happen in endgame pve, we will still stuck dk/arc/necro meta, because other 4 class cant do good work if they only use class skill
and we cant lost necro ult and Stone Giant
not sure maybe if you are in this mode do vka/vdsr trifecta will add 1-2 templar in group
like now.

It would really depend on what they introduce for Vengeance skills. Either way, there's going to be a min-max comp ready within a few days of Vengeance PvE appearing on the PTS. As for how doable the content is? That's just going to be balance.

On a slight tangent, it's not like that's a realistic counterpart to what OP is dooming about right now. I don't get how some people get confronted with the fact that something is a performance test and just immediately jump to "oh wow this is permanent and they're going to completely and utterly gut PvP forever"; it's like the entire concept of "limit testing the bare minimum" just doesn't even exist to them.

Any balancing changes that happen to Cyrodiil after Vengeance will fall somewhere in between Vengeance and Live; whether it be something drastic like "Vengeance but with added weapon abilities" or just "back to no proc-sets", we don't know.

And if reducing Cyrodiil to its bare minimum makes so many people happy, maybe Cyrodiil as it is now is just bloated with bull.

yes,I mean, if this "test" happen in Pve, I will very welcome,because they finally try fix this 2 year, we alway very lag/game dc/can't break free/block not work bugs ,when we run some very hard Pve like DSR/RG HM or trifecta
we have many ppl just stop run and wait Zos fix these
and we sometime run nude n trial run,so only use class skill more like fun mode...

Prophet_of_Malacath

Nathanbreakfast wrote: »

EDIT: I just glazed through a few of your videos. All the setups you're making are from the sets I just mentioned above!! LOL, Cmon man time to wake up. I want highly customizable PVP setup as well, but this game is straight up trash right now and something drastic needs to be done if it is going to remain living. You can only 1vX down so many casuals before they're all gone.

I believe you hit it on the head.

Someone who makes Youtube videos about "best PVP builds" has adversarial incentives on the topic (because if they remove the builds, there goes their content).

Ironically, I enjoy PVP - but not in ESO - because it's too restrained. I'm less interested in one-on-one duels & straight-forward fighting - and enjoy games that allow for sabotage, sneaking, traps, fleeing (I like to be the fox hunted by the hounds). Games that allow for more environmental usage (knocking enemies off cliffs, hiding in foliage, fleeing toward dangerous mobs (where maybe I have lower combat stats, but I built a resistance to their venom), parachuting off a canyon (to escape pursuers). I like when a lvl 14 could nearly kill my high-level toon by knocking me off an edge (and as I plummet, quick thinking spares my demise - and I can only smile that I was caught off guard by a lowbie).

Which is to say "farm gear = good" is antithetical to PVP feeling like it's a choice. All it does is give everyone homework for meta builds if they want to participate. Vengeance was the first time in years that I felt like "oh wow, I feel sneaky" (on my NB) without playing some bomber/gank build someone else dreamed up. It was superb.

Sarannah

anadandy wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

The PvE players are coming in asking for this to be a permanent change. Mostly due to skill issues that they have. They do not like that people who have invested thousands of hours in PvP can shred them. So they want this to change and make it easy and dumb it down.

It's so shocking that new players don't want to try PVP as it is with attitudes like this. So. Shocking.

Agreed.

This version of Cyrodiil may seem dumbed down, but it takes time to develop builds, rotations, optimal skill set-ups, and such. Once that happens, this vengeance campaign will be optimized for players of all skilllevels again. Skilled PvPers will always be better than non-skilled PvPers, so I am not sure why some PvPers want to keep their 1vsX or immortal builds, and are so against PvE'ers being able to enjoy PvP for once. More players wanting to PvP in ESO and being able to PvP in ESO is a good thing. A level playing field is just that, a level playing field. Without a fair and level playing field, the PvP population can't grow, and will keep dwindling down.

I think ZOS should release an official statement on this matter, as it seems some PvPers are wildly panicking because so many players seem to like how the vengeance Cyrodiil campaign works, and these PvPers are worried the regular Cyrodiil campaigns may suffer because of this. Even though there is no reason to think this, as this was only a test.
Strangely, these PvPers got exactly what they wanted and continuously asked for for all these years, and now they don't seem to actually want it: Large scale battles with hundreds of players, lagfree and good performance in PvP, and more players/high population in PvP.

reazea

anadandy wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

The PvE players are coming in asking for this to be a permanent change. Mostly due to skill issues that they have. They do not like that people who have invested thousands of hours in PvP can shred them. So they want this to change and make it easy and dumb it down.

It's so shocking that new players don't want to try PVP as it is with attitudes like this. So. Shocking.

Why do the casual PvE players always consider themselves to be victims when they lose a fight to someone more skilled and more experienced? Practice and experience is supposed to matter in this world, even in video games, those who play more are supposed to be better.

Sarannah wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

The PvE players are coming in asking for this to be a permanent change. Mostly due to skill issues that they have. They do not like that people who have invested thousands of hours in PvP can shred them. So they want this to change and make it easy and dumb it down.

It's so shocking that new players don't want to try PVP as it is with attitudes like this. So. Shocking.

Agreed.

This version of Cyrodiil may seem dumbed down, but it takes time to develop builds, rotations, optimal skill set-ups, and such. Once that happens, this vengeance campaign will be optimized for players of all skilllevels again. Skilled PvPers will always be better than non-skilled PvPers, so I am not sure why some PvPers want to keep their 1vsX or immortal builds, and are so against PvE'ers being able to enjoy PvP for once. More players wanting to PvP in ESO and being able to PvP in ESO is a good thing. A level playing field is just that, a level playing field. Without a fair and level playing field, the PvP population can't grow, and will keep dwindling down.

I think ZOS should release an official statement on this matter, as it seems some PvPers are wildly panicking because so many players seem to like how the vengeance Cyrodiil campaign works, and these PvPers are worried the regular Cyrodiil campaigns may suffer because of this. Even though there is no reason to think this, as this was only a test.
Strangely, these PvPers got exactly what they wanted and continuously asked for for all these years, and now they don't seem to actually want it: Large scale battles with hundreds of players, lagfree and good performance in PvP, and more players/high population in PvP.

Xzysts

Nathanbreakfast wrote: »

Yes a large portion of the players I speak of mix and match and run a lot of their own preferences on “copy paste builds” go look at my comments and see.

People wearing Tarnished/Balorgs/Wretched/Markyn then swapping a couple traits and CP points around does not make their build any less copy paste.

Rallying cry is one of the best sets in the game and I hardly see it anymore.

Everybody I know is dead, I collect unemployement and PVP 20 hours per day. Rallying cry is everywhere, you are crazy.

Of course I post meta setups. Why wouldn’t I? If you continue to look I post a lot of off meta setups as well.

85% of players are wearing copy paste setups. You may not, I don't either. I wear Torc 75% of the time.

but

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

I think the main message isn't that Vengeance is good and should be preserved as is.

I think the main message is that players who put a thousand hours into PVP should win *because they put a thousand hours into PVP*, not because they are running better gear.

Better gear should help, but right now (outside Vengeance) think gear and setup determines more losses/wins in PVP than player skill.

Among the top 10% of PVP players, skill may dominate (not informed enough to know) but that is after macros, routines/rotations, and gear/skills) setups are fully realized and most players would rather not template into a few very specific, narrow builds. It's better to just have no builds at all.

macros? I dont know anyone who runs macros there is no point

Sarannah

reazea wrote: »

Why do the casual PvE players always consider themselves to be victims when they lose a fight to someone more skilled and more experienced? Practice and experience is supposed to matter in this world, even in video games, those who play more are supposed to be better.

Which is still the case in vengeance. It is just more accessible and a much much more fair playing field for everyone. Why do PvPers think 1vsX and being immortal in PvP is good for the PvP population or for PvP itself? Or that those things trump a fair playing field in PvP, better accessibility to PvP, and no performance issues in PvP? Keep in mind, if you really are a truly skilled PvPer, you would have no issues with PvPing in vengeance and still being able to defeat others easily.

You are assuming casuals are always bad at PvP and always consider themselves victims when they die in PvP, which could not be further from the truth. Those 'victim' types of posts only happen during normal PvP events, but haven't happened/haven't been posted at all during vengeance(yet). So that can't be the case, and should make ZOS seriously think about what is really going on here(PvPers wanting to hold on to their spot on the mountaintop, regardless of if it is good or bad for the game and the PvP population). Assumptions are always bad, as that makes all your points moot.
My guess is that maybe in vengeance, without all the gear and preparations, many PvPers have noticed they aren't actually good at PvP and that they need all the gear/equipment crutches. That in a fair playing field, they are defeated by many 'casuals' even in 1-on-1 situations, despite them having thousands of hours of PvP under their belt. Doing 1vsX and being immortal while killing everyone they encountered, gave them a false sense of power and a false sense of being good at PvP. Or maybe it is just that they now experience what 'casuals' experience in PvP, having to respawn and mount back much more often. And not liking that at all.

Either way. By all the threads posted on the forums here, it seems that in vengeance casuals did not consider themselves victims at any point. While during regular PvP events they do. So your point is moot.

Please do not assume things about any part of the population. We all love this game, and we all want the game to grow. Including the PvP parts of ESO.

Thing is, if ZOS were to hypothetically remove all the normal campaigns from the game and replace them all with vengeance, they would fulfill all the criteria PvPers have wanted them to fulfill for years: Large scale battles with hundreds of players, good performance in the entire game including in it's PvP settings, and a more accessible(healthier?) PvP mode for everyone. Even just from a marketing standpoint alone this would be a massive win, the only complaints left would be "watered down PvP"/"simplified PvP", which would only come from the experienced PvPers. And that is only a small portion of the entire game's playerbase.
A secondary gain for ZOS would be, they have posted they are focussing more on the new player experience, which would make more accessible PvP fall right into that promise.
Both from a game-wise and a marketing-wise point of view, having vengeance as the only PvP mode would in general seem better for the game.

reazea

Sarannah wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Why do the casual PvE players always consider themselves to be victims when they lose a fight to someone more skilled and more experienced? Practice and experience is supposed to matter in this world, even in video games, those who play more are supposed to be better.

Which is still the case in vengeance. It is just more accessible and a much much more fair playing field for everyone. Why do PvPers think 1vsX and being immortal in PvP is good for the PvP population or for PvP itself? Or that those things trump a fair playing field in PvP, better accessibility to PvP, and no performance issues in PvP? Keep in mind, if you really are a truly skilled PvPer, you would have no issues with PvPing in vengeance and still being able to defeat others easily.

You are assuming casuals are always bad at PvP and always consider themselves victims when they die in PvP, which could not be further from the truth. Those 'victim' types of posts only happen during normal PvP events, but haven't happened/haven't been posted at all during vengeance(yet). So that can't be the case, and should make ZOS seriously think about what is really going on here(PvPers wanting to hold on to their spot on the mountaintop, regardless of if it is good or bad for the game and the PvP population). Assumptions are always bad, as that makes all your points moot.
My guess is that maybe in vengeance, without all the gear and preparations, many PvPers have noticed they aren't actually good at PvP and that they need all the gear/equipment crutches. That in a fair playing field, they are defeated by many 'casuals' even in 1-on-1 situations, despite them having thousands of hours of PvP under their belt. Doing 1vsX and being immortal while killing everyone they encountered, gave them a false sense of power and a false sense of being good at PvP. Or maybe it is just that they now experience what 'casuals' experience in PvP, having to respawn and mount back much more often. And not liking that at all.

Either way. By all the threads posted on the forums here, it seems that in vengeance casuals did not consider themselves victims at any point. While during regular PvP events they do. So your point is moot.

Please do not assume things about any part of the population. We all love this game, and we all want the game to grow. Including the PvP parts of ESO.

Thing is, if ZOS were to hypothetically remove all the normal campaigns from the game and replace them all with vengeance, they would fulfill all the criteria PvPers have wanted them to fulfill for years: Large scale battles with hundreds of players, good performance in the entire game including in it's PvP settings, and a more accessible(healthier?) PvP mode for everyone. Even just from a marketing standpoint alone this would be a massive win, the only complaints left would be "watered down PvP"/"simplified PvP", which would only come from the experienced PvPers. And that is only a small portion of the entire game's playerbase.
A secondary gain for ZOS would be, they have posted they are focussing more on the new player experience, which would make more accessible PvP fall right into that promise.
Both from a game-wise and a marketing-wise point of view, having vengeance as the only PvP mode would in general seem better for the game.

No. There is no skill gap with the vengeance mode. Skill accounts for nothing with this mode in this iteration of it. It's just numbers that matter like this. No individual player can make any noteworthy difference in any fight this way.

HatchetHaro

reazea wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Why do the casual PvE players always consider themselves to be victims when they lose a fight to someone more skilled and more experienced? Practice and experience is supposed to matter in this world, even in video games, those who play more are supposed to be better.

Which is still the case in vengeance. It is just more accessible and a much much more fair playing field for everyone. Why do PvPers think 1vsX and being immortal in PvP is good for the PvP population or for PvP itself? Or that those things trump a fair playing field in PvP, better accessibility to PvP, and no performance issues in PvP? Keep in mind, if you really are a truly skilled PvPer, you would have no issues with PvPing in vengeance and still being able to defeat others easily.

You are assuming casuals are always bad at PvP and always consider themselves victims when they die in PvP, which could not be further from the truth. Those 'victim' types of posts only happen during normal PvP events, but haven't happened/haven't been posted at all during vengeance(yet). So that can't be the case, and should make ZOS seriously think about what is really going on here(PvPers wanting to hold on to their spot on the mountaintop, regardless of if it is good or bad for the game and the PvP population). Assumptions are always bad, as that makes all your points moot.
My guess is that maybe in vengeance, without all the gear and preparations, many PvPers have noticed they aren't actually good at PvP and that they need all the gear/equipment crutches. That in a fair playing field, they are defeated by many 'casuals' even in 1-on-1 situations, despite them having thousands of hours of PvP under their belt. Doing 1vsX and being immortal while killing everyone they encountered, gave them a false sense of power and a false sense of being good at PvP. Or maybe it is just that they now experience what 'casuals' experience in PvP, having to respawn and mount back much more often. And not liking that at all.

Either way. By all the threads posted on the forums here, it seems that in vengeance casuals did not consider themselves victims at any point. While during regular PvP events they do. So your point is moot.

Please do not assume things about any part of the population. We all love this game, and we all want the game to grow. Including the PvP parts of ESO.

Thing is, if ZOS were to hypothetically remove all the normal campaigns from the game and replace them all with vengeance, they would fulfill all the criteria PvPers have wanted them to fulfill for years: Large scale battles with hundreds of players, good performance in the entire game including in it's PvP settings, and a more accessible(healthier?) PvP mode for everyone. Even just from a marketing standpoint alone this would be a massive win, the only complaints left would be "watered down PvP"/"simplified PvP", which would only come from the experienced PvPers. And that is only a small portion of the entire game's playerbase.
A secondary gain for ZOS would be, they have posted they are focussing more on the new player experience, which would make more accessible PvP fall right into that promise.
Both from a game-wise and a marketing-wise point of view, having vengeance as the only PvP mode would in general seem better for the game.

No. There is no skill gap with the vengeance mode. Skill accounts for nothing with this mode in this iteration of it. It's just numbers that matter like this. No individual player can make any noteworthy difference in any fight this way.

Oh, skill still matters. Choosing which abilities to run, positioning, reaction time, resource management, apm, all parts of skill expression in the Vengeance gameplay loop. Only change here is that no singular soldier will be able to fully turn the tides of battle by themself, like how it is in real warfare.

Pixiepumpkin

True skill can only be displayed when both characters are equal in strength.

Vengeance does this within the limits of the power the devs have given each class.

Anyone who truly wants balanced, skill based PVP, should be crying to the heavens for Vengeance to be the goto mode for Cyrodiil.

Proc sets are not skill. Having information for some cheese build vs a player who does not is not skill. Ganking is not skill, bombers are not skill. Anytime you can 1 shot a player, there is no skill involved.

Skill based pvp, just like real life sports is based around a set of rules on a balance playfield.

AvalonRanger

"We Need a Vengeance PvE Mode... It would only be fair, right?"

????

Trial group is 12 member only, group dungeon is 4 member, and IA is only 2 men group only.
I think PVE don't need server stress test like the Cyrodiil. It is very rare case tons of people
staying at the narrow area in PVE.

coop500

This thread exists out of spite towards innocent PVE players. Why is it still up?

Sarannah

coop500 wrote: »

This thread exists out of spite towards innocent PVE players. Why is it still up?

Because it resulted in a healthy discussion of the topic. So it should not be closed.

valenwood_vegan

coop500 wrote: »

This thread exists out of spite towards innocent PVE players. Why is it still up?

It's definitely kinda wild that they left this one up and closed like 14 others lol.

Nathanbreakfast

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

True skill can only be displayed when both characters are equal in strength..

So by your logic, a lesser geared player taking down a very well geared player would NOT be a display of skill? Your thesis is objectively false and makes zero sense lol.

old_scopie1945

You guys (some PVPers), you complain about performance, you complain about being forgotten about by ZOS. Now that ZOS are making a determent effort to try and put things right, apparently that is very bad. Naughty ZOS we are not happy bunnies.

It is very simple, start at base level and build PVP up to a level that it works. Basic principle. That's what you wanted, is it not, to make it work? Accepted some compromises will need to be made, but that's the price for a smoother playing experience. The system is clearly not up to running PVP in its current configuration. The devs must feel, what's the point at times. It is of benefit for ZOS to have an aspect to their game to be as popular to as wide a base of players as possible. The more people you keep interested, the longer the life span of the game and the more money that can be made.

As an afterthought, Vengeance has seemed to be popular with quite few players including PVEers. Why not have a Vengeance campaign and see how it runs over an extended period of time, and see how popular it is long term. No doubt the population will drop over time, but it will give ZOS an idea how viable it is.

tomofhyrule

If you're gonna make a troll thread, please at least make sure that said troll thread doesn't already exist: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/672880/why-not-try-template-character-format-for-pve-too-while-forcing-pvp-players-to-do-same

And because I'm feeling lazy, I'll just post what I posted last time.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I have a sneaking suspicion this post has nothing to do with trying to improve performance in PvE and is mostly another complaining-about-Vengeance post.

First: it’s not all PvP areas of the game. It is specifically Cyrodiil. IC and BGs are not affected by the test.

Second: the devs have said numerous times that they’re not going to make ‘template PvP’ as the goal. This test is specifically to be a stress test to see how many people can be in Cyrodiil at once.

Third: if the test goes well, then the devs know that performance is related to the number of calculations. The next steps then would be to introduce things a bit at a time to see how to keep large numbers in Cyrodiil while still keeping ESO’s heart. If the test fails, the devs know that proc sets and all the skills are not the source of Cyrodiil lag. Either way, the next steps will depend on the results of this one.

Fourth: they have talked about Vengeance in the PTS patch notes, an impromptu Q&A stream, and have just released a written Q&A as well. If anyone hasn’t watched the VOD for the impromptu stream, I would definitely suggest doing so as it did a lot to make people feel better about the goals and was excellent communication.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Ok, fine. Let's pretend that this is a good-faith argument. Which - let's be clear - it's not.

Lag in PvE endgame is more sporadic and not as severe as lag in Cyrodiil. It's there, obviously, but nowhere near the same extent. And usually, it'll affect a few people in the group sometimes - like someone who's playing a slideshow vKA may have it on one day, but not every time they go in. That suggests that the lag is not entirely because of server calculation, but instead because of routing (i.e. weather issues between the client and server)

The other issue is balance. While there are issues with the balance of Vengeance, the benefit of template PvP in the first place is that two equally matches players on the same template will be matched evenly. Now ZOS didn't do a huge balance pass on Venegance (that was addressed in those Q&As!) so naturally there's going to be one OP class and one trash-tier class, but it's a testing week so it's not the worst thing in the world. Either way, the 'test' is to get hundreds of players in one battle at once.

PvE would be a lot harder to test that way, since you would need to ensure the bosses are completable in order to get to them. One of the big complaints with the more recent HMs is that they do require players to be slaves to the meta, so if players were replaced with templates there would have to be a balance pass to make sure that the bosses are completable.

The other issue is that PvE has defined roles, so a "DK template" would still need to be able to be a proper tank, DPS, and even a healer. That means you'd essentially need 3x as many templates and a huge balance just to be able to test it.

Who knows, maybe depending on the results of this Cyro testing, they'd be able to make a pass on PvE as well. But let's be honest - nobody thinks that "just make template PvE" is anything other than a complaint about PvP testing. And again, if you think that Vengenace would be the death of PvP, you are perfectly at liberty to play IC or BGs with your fully customized PvP build during that week.

barney2525

Gee, how many years have people been complaining about PvP ?

hmmmm ...... ALL of them since the game was created

Is PvP still a Part of ESO ?

hmmmm ..... Yep. Sure is.

Major_Mangle

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

True skill can only be displayed when both characters are equal in strength.

Vengeance does this within the limits of the power the devs have given each class.

Anyone who truly wants balanced, skill based PVP, should be crying to the heavens for Vengeance to be the goto mode for Cyrodiil.

Proc sets are not skill. Having information for some cheese build vs a player who does not is not skill. Ganking is not skill, bombers are not skill. Anytime you can 1 shot a player, there is no skill involved.

Skill based pvp, just like real life sports is based around a set of rules on a balance playfield.

Correct itemization is a skill tho. Finding synergies between sets, skills and other factors is 100% a skill in itself. Doesn't mean that balance shouldn't exist and sets shouldn't require adjustments depending on whether or not it overperforms in certain scenarios.

Varana

Einstein_ wrote: »

[snip]

They did their job of not making it lag.
Programming the Vengeance setup required paying programmers.
That is an investment.

[edited to remove quote]

old_scopie1945

Einstein_ wrote: »

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

You guys (some PVPers), you complain about performance, you complain about being forgotten about by ZOS. Now that ZOS are making a determent effort to try and put things right, apparently that is very bad. Naughty ZOS we are not happy bunnies.

It is very simple, start at base level and build PVP up to a level that it works. Basic principle. That's what you wanted, is it not, to make it work? Accepted some compromises will need to be made, but that's the price for a smoother playing experience. The system is clearly not up to running PVP in its current configuration. The devs must feel, what's the point at times. It is of benefit for ZOS to have an aspect to their game to be as popular to as wide a base of players as possible. The more people you keep interested, the longer the life span of the game and the more money that can be made.

As an afterthought, Vengeance has seemed to be popular with quite few players including PVEers. Why not have a Vengeance campaign and see how it runs over an extended period of time, and see how popular it is long term. No doubt the population will drop over time, but it will give ZOS an idea how viable it is.

[snip]

You don't get it do you? It was a test, strip it down and see the result. Then slowly add to get the best solution. Simple basic procedure. A lot better than tinkering around and hoping for the best. Believe it or not, ZOS is in the business to entertain and of course to make money.

[edited to remove quote]

Ingenon

[quote="Einstein_;c-8287968"
[snip][/quote]

First: I'm not into PvP. Only time I go into Imperial City, Battlegrounds, Cyrodiil is when there is an event going on and I want the event tickets. And I could not play in Vengeance campaign because I play on console, so everyone on four out of six servers was excluded from this test.

Second: I read the forums. Folks posting about PvP, these proc set, these desync skills, ball groups wearing these proc sets set and spamming these desync skills to cause the servers to lag. If I was the programmer, what would I do? Test a campaign with no desync skills and no proc sets. Oh right, that is just what ZOS did with Vengeance! Oh look, large groups of folks playing in Cyrodiil with little to no lag! Who would have thought! (/sarcasm)

ZOS is investing into making it work. And it looks to me like it is working. Maybe they will be able to add back some of the proc sets and desync skills, or maybe they won't because doing that ends up lagging the servers to Oblivion. We will see.

[edited to remove quote]

Getsugatenso

Definitely vegeance is too bad, I prefer the build variety

JustLovely

coop500 wrote: »

This thread exists out of spite towards innocent PVE players. Why is it still up?

Nobody is innocent in this world.

Hypertionb14_ESO

sigh, topics like this is why the lack of downvoting and negative reactions is a bad thing at times.

joergino

Indeed. So many Vengeance threads have been closed, yet the pure troll thread is left open. This seems completely inexplicable.