Players Selling Carries and End Game Achievements

Rogue_Coyote · February 19

Several examples can be easily found in game of players advertising carries and end game titles like Godslayer for millions of gold. This seems like a form of boosting, no? Which should be against ZoS ToS and reportable. However this practice seems to be the norm and accepted/ignored. Personally I feel this is a form of cheating and takes away from legit players who took the time to grind the achievements the way they were intended, as their titles "could have been bought" instead of earned. Thoughts?

Dragonnord · February 19

ZOS has already communicated, more than one time through some Devs, that it is accepted and approved by them.

abkam · February 19

Rogue_Coyote wrote: »

Several examples can be easily found in game of players advertising carries and end game titles like Godslayer for millions of gold. This seems like a form of boosting, no? Which should be against ZoS ToS and reportable. However this practice seems to be the norm and accepted/ignored. Personally I feel this is a form of cheating and takes away from legit players who took the time to grind the achievements the way they were intended, as their titles "could have been bought" instead of earned. Thoughts?

You will start World War III. Prepare yourself.

Carry runs, Selling loot from trials/dungeons, Linking fake achievements should be 100% prohibited.

Lozeenge · February 19

the community nearly lost their gourd because of an extended pause on crown gifting, i don't think ulterior means of making gold is going to go away anytime soon unless the premium economy is reworked from the ground-up.

Grizzbeorn · February 19

As long as it's for in-game currency and not real money, it's not against TOS.

Icy_Waffles · February 19

Totally fine to do this. If you can get in one of the groups it’s great money and a lot of fun!

sarahthes · February 19

It's perfectly fine. Most of the people purchasing the runs are actually just buying gear drops. It's a lot faster to fill stickerbook when you get all 12 peoples drops from the run.

Kittytravel · February 19

Rogue_Coyote wrote: »

Several examples can be easily found in game of players advertising carries and end game titles like Godslayer for millions of gold. This seems like a form of boosting, no? Which should be against ZoS ToS and reportable. However this practice seems to be the norm and accepted/ignored. Personally I feel this is a form of cheating and takes away from legit players who took the time to grind the achievements the way they were intended, as their titles "could have been bought" instead of earned. Thoughts?

You could make this same argument for every single player who has acquired all of the Trifecta achievements post 2018, 2020 and especially post 2023 with Necrom and Arcanist. After all they did none of the content the way that it was intended.

Those aren't the "legit players" who got those achievements. They did them when those achievements were easier and newer stuff came out and all the power creep made them easy!

You start going down an extraordinarily slippery slope when you use the term "legit players". Shouldn't the same then be argued for people who get their friends through trials for achievements? Maybe we should have a DPS, Healing and Buff uptime, and Tank Mitigation and Taunt time requirement for anyone to be eligible for achievements. You know, so only "legit players" get them.

We should also make sure that people who are getting Emperor in Cyrodiil are doing it the "legit" way.

Buying achievements with in-game money is a long time thing in MMO's. It's also the least of the games problems honestly; it gives both those players something to do and it gives casual players something to farm and aim for. It's literally a win-win for player content.

Otherwise, if we really want to go down that route, then we should timelock every single hardmode-related achievement so that only the people who can do the dungeon/trial/arena in the first 3 months that it's out are able to get the achievements. Cause those are the only "legit players".

Renato90085 · February 19

yes, we can got 1~3m gold from vet trial carry run
this is close to what I make in 2-5 hour in the newbie zone.
99% buyer just buy weapon/set

Dragonnord · February 19

Why asking again and discussing something that has been discussed dozens of times already and that, to clarify things once and for all, ZOS said that they approve this practice?

Wing · February 19

this is literally who and what that content is designed for.

less than 5% of players engage in "end game" content. sad because they are the majority who bank roll the development of said end game content that all players that have to pay for, once with real money in the form of dungeon DLC's, and second in the form of in game gold so that can be carried through content.

at no point along that journey did the average player get to experience the content as it was intended, and they were charged every step of the way, and convinced this is the experience they should expect and to not hope for better.

kinda like life lol

this is why i only play ESO super casual these days, it does not deserve my (or your) time, your worth more, you know it, i know it. play other games, do other things, dont pay for carries ^_^ these systems only exist because you allow it, be better.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · February 19

I like PvP not PvE.

I farm Tel Var and sell Hakeijos to buy raid carries for Perfected trial sets that I then use in PvP (e.g. Relequen)

The raid gets the gold and I get the sets. I don't have to deal with PvE. It's a win/win for everyone.

Grizzbeorn · February 19

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

I like PvP not PvE.

I farm Tel Var and sell Hakeijos to buy raid carries for Perfected trial sets that I then use in PvP (e.g. Relequen)

The raid gets the gold and I get the sets. I don't have to deal with PvE. It's a win/win for everyone.

A perfectly valid process that does not violate TOS.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · February 19

Did you ever play DAoC's Trials of Atlantis expansion? It was the first expansion where if you wanted the best PvP gear then you needed to do PvE content. There was a mass exodus of PvP players because of this. If carries were banned then trial sets would need to be banned from PvP.

Malyore · February 19

I think it's fine. Some skins and costumes are locked behind achievements. Some people have fun working hard for those rewards, while other players just want the rewards because playing with cosmetics is more fun to them. If they're willing to buy the rewards, then why not?
I didn't grind bal sunnar for a motif, I bought one. There are also some overland sets that I will buy. I see buying carries as an extension of that type of system.

SpiritofESO · February 19

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Did you ever play DAoC's Trials of Atlantis expansion? It was the first expansion where if you wanted the best PvP gear then you needed to do PvE content. There was a mass exodus of PvP players because of this. If carries were banned then trial sets would need to be banned from PvP.

I do remember that very well!

Dark Age of Camelot introduced me to the Realm versus Realm versus Realm style PVP which, by the way, just happens to be mirrored in ESO's Alliance versus Alliance versus Alliance PvP (with connected keeps and PvP which occurs in a central zone that all Alliances have access to).

There was such a mass exodus from the game that years later they re-established what they called "Classic" DAOC servers.

Unfortunately, their graphics and animation was so antique by that time that the damage had already been done and players just moved on. I was sad to leave but I too just moved on.

twisttop138 · February 19

Interesting to see this old chestnut. While I personally wouldn't do this, as I want to learn and do the content, this is a harmless practice. As someone above said, they pvp. They farm and buy raid carries for perfected gear for pvp. Maybe a roleplayer wants a skin or a title. No harm done. My only hope is that folks get in there, see the team work and hear the banter and think maybe they'd give it a try for real.

Taril · February 19

Rogue_Coyote wrote: »

Personally I feel this is a form of cheating

How is it cheating?

People are still having to complete the content. Just they're having to do so with dead weight in their party. If anything it's more of a flex that they are ABLE to still beat the content despite having people specifically getting carried.

Rogue_Coyote wrote: »

takes away from legit players who took the time to grind the achievements the way they were intended, as their titles "could have been bought" instead of earned.

It doesn't take anything away. Unless you put weight in having a Trifecta achievement to boost your own ego of how "Good" you are at getting through some group content whereby you have 11 other players who can potentially carry you...

Like, many "Legit" players could have been carried by the rest of their teams. Not unlike the people paying for carries now. The only difference would be the delusion that the "Legit" player might have had that they were contributing vs the paid carry knows they're doing none of the work.

Essentially, the fact that it is possible to do such a thing already waters down the "Achievement". If the content was actually so difficult that ALL players had to perform exceedingly well in order to complete, not only would the achievement be noteworthy but selling carries would be impossible.

redlink1979 · February 19

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

EnviousStruggle wrote: »

its not against the rulers to sell ingame services for ingame money by ingame transactions
it has been told many times

This is true, but scamming can be considered a violation of our Terms of Service.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/314531/people-selling-the-maw-skin-on-ps4-na/p1ust

One of the several times that the practise (selling in-game services for in-game money by in-game transactions) was sanctioned by a ZOS member.

Juju_beans · February 19

It's a form of entrepreneurship. Making use of the game to make money.

spartaxoxo · February 19

It is allowed and it should be.

The people who get good enough at the game that they can sell their carries, deserve to be able to make coin from their efforts. As long as no real world money is exchanged, there is no issue with skilled players selling their services.

People who take issue with that because they want to judge others and can only feel good about something if someone else doesn't have it, should take a look inwards. They'll be much happier if they stop judging the worth of their stuff in-game by what other people have.

valenwood_vegan · February 19

I wouldn't buy a carry, as I want to accomplish things for myself... but I also don't spend my time worrying about what other people are doing and whether they "earned" this or that title, or "deserved" to complete the content they completed. Carries seem pretty harmless to me as long as real money isn't involved.

And I mean, to take a broader view... aren't many of us carried in group content to some extent? I mean I do casual trials in my social guild, where many of the participants have never done the trial before... but an experienced tank takes us through and explains the mechs and everything, and a high performing DPS comes along to make up for inexperienced players. Is that not a carry for those players? They may even be paying guild dues... so while they didn't directly "buy" a carry, they did pay to be part of the guild and have access to the guild's services.

What about doing a dungeon trifecta achievement with a couple of friends who are better at the game than I am? I mean I didn't pay them, we did it for fun... but I'm pretty sure I got carried. Would this have suddenly not been ok anymore if I'd "paid" my friends for their efforts in some way, like giving them a gear drop they needed or a cool furnishing plan I picked up during the run or *gasp* sending some gold or buying them a gift for their efforts?

Is the issue just that some are doing the same kinda thing but for gold? Or should we ban all players from doing content with anyone else who's more experienced or better at the game than they are? Only a select few of us can be the best of the best, after all.

SgtWinnie · February 19

The titles like "Godslayer" etc make me laugh when I see them. I've seen a lot of these titles die to simple overland content.
You can usually tell the legit ones.
For the people who worked for it and managed through progress to earn it I applaud you.
Those who purchased it and wear the title anyway it seems a fairly hollow title BUT it's your game and your gold so either way it has no bearing on my game so go ahead. Personally I won't wear a title I haven't earned but it's been said I'm old fashioned lol.

I purchased a run for my mate for some perfected gear. Great group and no problems.
Who knows I may end up buying some runs for stickerbook one day.
As mentioned many times if it's for in game gold it's not against ToS and therefore is perfectly fine.
Is it cheating? Not really.
It in no way has any effect on your game. So just enjoy yourself and stop worrying about things you can't control.
Good hunting.

CalamityCat · February 19

The only time I have an issue with this sort of thing is when the advertiser is taking advantage of less experienced players who might pay a lot of gold for something a friendly guild would do for free. Or that they could just say on a group finder that they need a team to help farm a set or whatever it is.

I don't care if people buy things without doing them the hard way, I have the satisfaction from trying repeatedly and practising until I managed to do stuff. My achievements remind me of what I can do, rather than what I couldn't.

moo_2021 · February 19

Why would I care about what titles or achievements others have?? Are we competiting on titles now?

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · February 19

moo_2021 wrote: »

Why would I care about what titles or achievements others have?? Are we competiting on titles now?

I use @ names with titles turned off 🤣 All I see is @ ImaNewbie, @ LolUrDied, etc

BananaBender · February 19

Taril wrote: »

Rogue_Coyote wrote: »

Personally I feel this is a form of cheating

How is it cheating?

People are still having to complete the content. Just they're having to do so with dead weight in their party. If anything it's more of a flex that they are ABLE to still beat the content despite having people specifically getting carried.

Rogue_Coyote wrote: »

takes away from legit players who took the time to grind the achievements the way they were intended, as their titles "could have been bought" instead of earned.

It doesn't take anything away. Unless you put weight in having a Trifecta achievement to boost your own ego of how "Good" you are at getting through some group content whereby you have 11 other players who can potentially carry you...

Like, many "Legit" players could have been carried by the rest of their teams. Not unlike the people paying for carries now. The only difference would be the delusion that the "Legit" player might have had that they were contributing vs the paid carry knows they're doing none of the work.

Essentially, the fact that it is possible to do such a thing already waters down the "Achievement". If the content was actually so difficult that ALL players had to perform exceedingly well in order to complete, not only would the achievement be noteworthy but selling carries would be impossible.

Trifecta carries are done by having another player log onto your account and playing for you.

spartaxoxo · February 19

SgtWinnie wrote: »

I purchased a run for my mate for some perfected gear. Great group and no problems.
Who knows I may end up buying some runs for stickerbook one day.
As mentioned many times if it's for in game gold it's not against ToS and therefore is perfectly fine.
Is it cheating? Not really.
It in no way has any effect on your game. So just enjoy yourself and stop worrying about things you can't control.
Good hunting.

Actually your post reminded me of something else. Not everyone who purchases a carry actually needed a carry. Some of them are doing it for gear or because they can't find a good guild group, but otherwise would be perfectly capable of doing things themselves.

I have never purchased one or been good enough to sell one.

But, I learned about this use from an AITA here on the forums, IIRC.

The person was a guild leader who also sold carries. One of their buyers wanted to buy a hard mode carry for Cloudrest because the guild he'd previously been in had disbanded. And he wasn't able to find a group to run with that worked with his time schedule nor was he interested in starting over with a new prog group anyway. Well, this player pulled their weight and turned out to be extremely good and they were going to be able to get not just the hard mode but the Trifecta. Until some jerk player decided that because it ended up being a Trifecta, he should have to pay them all more money. The guild leader vetoed this and said he paid for us to play like we're playing and it's only his own skill that made it nice. But the jerk again demanded more money. When the player declined, the jerk purposefully killed themselves to ruin the Trifecta.

The guild leader did a replacement Trifecta run free of charge, kicked the jerk from their guild, and told other big carry guilds about this person. Some of whom decided to blacklist them from joining. Guild leader then wondered if they were too harsh and asked here if they did the right thing.

It was nearly unanimous that yes, guild leader was in the right. They were lead and it was their call, ethics about the upcharge aside. Besides, most of the group was happy for the player. It was only the one person being a problem.

Anyway, it was an interesting thread that made me consider carries in a different light and your post reminded me of it.

demonology89 · February 19

BananaBender wrote: »

Trifecta carries are done by having another player log onto your account and playing for you.

I was waiting for someone to bring this up. There is no way trifecta carries are done with the person buying the carry. The buyer would at least need to know mechanics and how to stay alive.

How is logging into someone else's account not against ToS?

peacenote · February 19

The longer I play ESO, the more I realize how frivolous the concern about if someone else "legitimately" earned an in-game reward really is.

The game only has so many ways to reward us. Inevitably, certain rewards will appeal to players who aren't interested or skilled enough to complete the content attached to the reward. But there isn't really an elite reward type. Dyes, titles, skins, personalities, etc. are all attached to content with various of degrees of difficulty. What makes one dye better than another is completely subjective. Therefore, the rewards attached to the "harder" content are really almost arbitrary. Additionally, the game is always evolving, so between things like power creep, stickerbook, AwA, One Tamriel, account bound armor, etc., there will always be players who received the reward "the hard way" vs. "the easy way." Paying for a carry is just one many scenarios. In fact, participate in Dungeon Finder or Group Finder and you might find you are the provider or recipient of a free carry! I definitely received clears in my early days that were pure luck - got in a group who knew what they were doing and I had NO idea what I was doing, and it didn't matter. When it comes down to it, whether someone gets lucky or pays for a carry, the outcome is basically the same: someone received a reward without putting in the "average" time and effort usually needed to receive it.

Unlike power creep, dev choices, QoL/convenience updates, which simply reduces in-game time requirements to earn the rewards, paid carries are actually the only scenario that actively helps the community. It gives experienced players a way to earn, something to do, a way to show off their skills, and unique challenges (because they are beating the content with a less skilled player in the team). It makes the rewards more accessible. It gives greener players a chance to see harder content and maybe draw them in to participating more in the future. It connects players who otherwise might not interact or meet. And unlike nerfs to the game, it keeps all participants active and engaged in the community.

While I understand the instinct for "bragging rights," it is just unrealistic to assume that certain rewards will remain sacred and consistently hard to obtain throughout the life of an ever-evolving game. Anyone remember when Doshia was considered tough?

Reginald_leBlem · February 19

One of my favorite trial experiences in this game involved a vMoL carry, where the guy was playing as a Kahjiit and stayed in character the entire run.

At the end we traded our gear to him, then he put on the Dro'mathra skin, said something like "Aha! Thank you for being so easily tricked into releasing this one into the world!" and ported away

10/10, will always support the RP community getting their trial skins in order to RP as an evil Dro'mathra, no matter how good or bad they are at doing the trials themselves.