What is a fank tank and when is it a problem?

zaria · January 18

MJallday wrote: »

your question is flawed because "normal" dungeons dont require a tank.

Agree, now you could be very unlucky and get 3 who is new players below cp 200 in one of the harder dlc dungeons. Very unlikely but happened to me once, we mad progress but it was slow so we re-qued for an RND and got fungal 1

Desiato · January 18

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

Wolfshade wrote: »

Last week i asked myself the question, what is the role, people think a tank has to deal with. And i think that should be the better question in many ways. We should clearify this question before thinking of what is a good/fank tank.

Taunt? No, thats not part of a good tank. Thats should be pretty normal.
Taunt isn`t taunt? If you didnt use Tremor or Silverleash, you are not a tank!?
Buff, the Group? No point to choose!
Debuff Enemies? No point to choose!
Booth doesnt matter for players who has learned something about running Silverleash or Icestaff!

This poll is not a good poll, cause i see so many players who didnt has any clue what is the role/ could be the role of a tank. And there are many more aspekts than staying alive and taunt. This could just the answer of unknown players and shown the minimum quality and understandment of Eso in playerbase.

After that, my 50k life Nekro running Icestaff or Koloss and Leeching Plate is a good tank. No he isnt, he is the poorest tank in groupcontend but many would prefer and call this as a real tank while nb is a fake tank.

Class has nothing to do with it. They aren't preferred for trials, but NBs can tank dungeons just fine -- and trials, they just aren't considered optimal.

To answer your question, the primary role of a tank is to hold the attention of enemies and position them optimally for the rest of the group to destroy them. This especially means not pulling the boss out of ground AEs and ults -- something that is far too common. If they can heal themselves, that's a bonus because it allows the player with healing responsibilities to contribute more damage.

Next, would be debuffing the enemies and buffing teammates.

Then contributing to group damage.

I would argue a 50k tank is not at all optimal for any normal dungeon. The most HP necessary would be 28k and I think that's overdoing it. My 40kish hp vet trial tank feels out of place when tanking base game vets.

My 22-28k olo/pa templar normal dungeon tank performs all the main functions while contributing a lot of damage. He does a fine job tanking base game vets too.

mdjessup4906 · January 18

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

Best "fake" tank skill. Pull, breach, and taunt all in one.

Arunei · January 18

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

I'm genuinely puzzled if there people think ONLY those using Ice Staff or S&B builds can properly tank, given there are a number of Sets, Skills, and now Scribing things that can Taunt.

A fake tank is simple, it's a DPS who queues as a Tank but doesn't intend to tank at all. They have no Taunt, they don't care about pinning the boss or grouping trash, they only queue as a Tank in order to get around the wait time for DPS.

As long as the person tanking has a Taunt and keeps the boss/trash from running everywhere (and properly keeps the boss faced AWAY from the group) and has the survivability, then they aren't a fake tank. They're doing the role, which is absorbing damage and keeping damage off the rest of the party.

Depperoniak · January 19

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

No matter what dungeon, if the tank don't taunt, either they don't know what they're doing or they're just a jackass jumping queue.
Some tanks are so fake, they will even say that "this dungeon doesn't need a tank" and put the blame on you for not realizing how great they are. But if they are so great, why don't they just solo the dungeon, but instead make their selfishness and impatience everyone else's problem?
Fake tanks are the antithesis of team play and deserve zero respect. In any reasonable democracy they should be summarily executed.

Depperoniak · January 19

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

MJallday wrote: »

your question is flawed because "normal" dungeons dont require a tank.

If you're too good to tank a normal dungeon, what are you still doing in a normal dungeon?
Maybe not ruin it for people who are playing at the appropriate level?

spartaxoxo · January 19

They're fake unless ice staff/sword and shield but if they do the base job of holding boss still and not dying, I don't care.

Depperoniak wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

your question is flawed because "normal" dungeons dont require a tank.

If you're too good to tank a normal dungeon, what are you still doing in a normal dungeon?
Maybe not ruin it for people who are playing at the appropriate level?

You can't get the daily rewards if you solo it. So, they have just much reason to be in that dungeon as anyone else.

DenverRalphy · January 19

Other/mixed (feel free to comment!)

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Depperoniak wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

your question is flawed because "normal" dungeons dont require a tank.

If you're too good to tank a normal dungeon, what are you still doing in a normal dungeon?
Maybe not ruin it for people who are playing at the appropriate level?

You can't get the daily rewards if you solo it. So, they have just much reason to be in that dungeon as anyone else.

Basically true. But since the intent of the Random Dungeon tool is to fill slots in unfilled premades, isn't there some measure of assumption that if you queue random you're inherently agreeing to assist the other players in the group in order to receive that reward?

the1andonlyskwex · January 19

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

I like that the poll options include holding the boss still. My experience with fake tanks is that they either don't try to tank at all (i.e. they don't have/use a taunt), or they taunt bosses and stay alive by kiting them all over the place. Outside of those two categories I don't really consider people to be fake tanks.

Tanks that taunt and die are probably just bad/inexperienced, not fake, which bothers me a lot less than the true fakes who are essentially just bad-faith queue jumpers.

Also, a lot of previous discussions on this topic accuse tanks (and healers) with more selfish builds of being fake. Personally, I don't have a problem if someone prioritizes doing the basic responsibilities of the job over trying to buff DPS. I'll take a tank who can taunt and hold a boss without dying over group buffs any day. Relatedly, I get the need for group buffs in trials, but in a dungeon queue there are only 2 DPS and the additional damage they get from a tank's buffs isn't always enough to expect all tanks to focus on buffing them over just building a tank that can do some of its own damage.

Wolfshade · January 19

Desiato wrote: »

Class has nothing to do with it. They aren't preferred for trials, but NBs can tank dungeons just fine -- and trials, they just aren't considered optimal.

btw. zos did a great job to make even nb more viable as a tank.

coop500 wrote: »

For the record, this is strictly speaking about RANDOM NORMAL DUNGEONS. Nothing more, nothing less.

...the point i ignored a bit. It was not meant to blame those players who voted for that and wrote about next steps vet/trials. Sry, for that. Running a long time random normal dng, and thats a really spread and difficult aspect. The answers with "taunt and hold boss still" i totally understand, cause of the, even for beginners, fast actioncombat and even the randomness of groups/players you will meet.

As Tank, stay cool!

If you start tanking in normal you can often get blamed as "fake" tank, specially if you didnt play what dps usually knows. Ignore that, go thru that, and keep going. Learn base mechanics and keep in mind, that you can do a lot more for your grp as staying alive, taunt and hold boss still. Many players simply didnt need a tank for "normal" but there are several dlc-bosses a tank is needed and be prepared that vet is another level where you will conquer the same.

For the tanks and so called "fake"-Tanks but even for those who didnt knows the many different aspects tanking in Eso can be/the options you can have (all works but not in every group and espacially/very difficult not in random groups):

The best Tanking-Site, ...read that (ALL!). Not even once, ...twice and look for yourself on what level/progress of tanking you are.

Taril · January 19

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

Arunei wrote: »

I'm genuinely puzzled if there people think ONLY those using Ice Staff or S&B builds can properly tank, given there are a number of Sets, Skills, and now Scribing things that can Taunt.

When dealing with end-game content, it's not about Taunt access. It's about the fact that Ice Staff and SnB get passives that improve Block mitigation and reduce Block cost.

That is the reason why those weapons are the "Tank" weapons because properly built tanks HAVE to use them due to those passives.

They are not necessary for normal dungeons, where you only really need to block heavy attacks because damage is basically 0 anyway (Even then, blocking heavy attacks is mostly so you don't get thrown about the place like a ragdoll rather than the damage you'd take)

But for any real content, you need the additional bonuses for blocking.

Zulrah19 · January 19

I use oakensoul arcanist tank for random vets when bored and its surprisingly strong, done most vet dlcs with it at this point.

30k+ health

Powerful assault/Heartland conqueror/1 piece monster set or trainee

Dual daggers but equip shield if needed

Runic taunt - Caltrops - Beam - Flail - Pull/shield

AlnilamE · January 19

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

Even if they die, that's probably my fault as the healer (as the guy in DSA likes to say).

If someone is actually tanking the bosses and grouping trash along the way, they are a tank in my eyes.

Depperoniak · January 19

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Tanks that taunt and die are probably just bad/inexperienced, not fake, which bothers me a lot less than the true fakes who are essentially just bad-faith queue jumpers.

This.

Sailor_Palutena · January 19

Unless they got ice staff/sword and shield they're fake and should GTFO

MJallday wrote: »

your question is flawed because "normal" dungeons dont require a tank.

You probably never played DLC dungeons.

Sailor_Palutena · January 19

Unless they got ice staff/sword and shield they're fake and should GTFO

LunaFlora wrote: »

a fake Tank is generally a Damage Dealer who queued as Tank to get into a Dungeon faster.
Generally they don't have a Tank build, don't use Taunts, nor do they care about their group.

technically a Healer could also queue as a Tank and be a fake Tank, but if that ever happens it's probably an accident instead of on purpose.

I always play as healer and it amuses me how "healing" has a higher level of threat than damage output. Whenever I get into a group with a fake tank, all enemies and bosses come straight to me.

LunaFlora · January 19

Other/mixed (feel free to comment!)

Sailor_Palutena wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

a fake Tank is generally a Damage Dealer who queued as Tank to get into a Dungeon faster.
Generally they don't have a Tank build, don't use Taunts, nor do they care about their group.

technically a Healer could also queue as a Tank and be a fake Tank, but if that ever happens it's probably an accident instead of on purpose.

I always play as healer and it amuses me how "healing" has a higher level of threat than damage output. Whenever I get into a group with a fake tank, all enemies and bosses come straight to me.

happens to me too when i heal and there's a fake tank.

Arunei · January 19

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

Taril wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

I'm genuinely puzzled if there people think ONLY those using Ice Staff or S&B builds can properly tank, given there are a number of Sets, Skills, and now Scribing things that can Taunt.

When dealing with end-game content, it's not about Taunt access. It's about the fact that Ice Staff and SnB get passives that improve Block mitigation and reduce Block cost.

That is the reason why those weapons are the "Tank" weapons because properly built tanks HAVE to use them due to those passives.

They are not necessary for normal dungeons, where you only really need to block heavy attacks because damage is basically 0 anyway (Even then, blocking heavy attacks is mostly so you don't get thrown about the place like a ragdoll rather than the damage you'd take)

But for any real content, you need the additional bonuses for blocking.

So, and this is a genuine question and not a snarky one, no one doing endgame content has made a viable tank build without using S&B or Ice Staff?

Taril · January 19

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

Arunei wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

I'm genuinely puzzled if there people think ONLY those using Ice Staff or S&B builds can properly tank, given there are a number of Sets, Skills, and now Scribing things that can Taunt.

When dealing with end-game content, it's not about Taunt access. It's about the fact that Ice Staff and SnB get passives that improve Block mitigation and reduce Block cost.

That is the reason why those weapons are the "Tank" weapons because properly built tanks HAVE to use them due to those passives.

They are not necessary for normal dungeons, where you only really need to block heavy attacks because damage is basically 0 anyway (Even then, blocking heavy attacks is mostly so you don't get thrown about the place like a ragdoll rather than the damage you'd take)

But for any real content, you need the additional bonuses for blocking.

So, and this is a genuine question and not a snarky one, no one doing endgame content has made a viable tank build without using S&B or Ice Staff?

As far as I'm aware, no.

There's potential for Sorc to attempt it, due to Bound Armor providing massive block mitigation bonus, but the issue is still with sustain.

Given that recovery for the resource that your blocks cost is halted while bracing (Combined with the need to block even LA's in the most difficult content) makes the reduction more necessary. This would be amplified by the extra sustain issues of spamming Bound Armour every 5 seconds to maintain the block mitigation buff (On top of your regular maintenance of spamming Shields and applying your Buffs/Debuffs)

Warhawke_80 · January 19

I'm amazed how some folks just obsess over this...my guild does everything and we just don't worry about it...so glad I don't have to use Dungeon Finder....one of the few times I tried DF I had some guy screech that I was a fake DPS because my Stam Nightblade wasn't a Dark Elf...seriously he had a total tantrum over it

It's just ridiculous...but it's never going to change because of the serious design flaws ESO is cursed with...and to that I say don't hate the player, hate the game.

spartaxoxo · January 19

They're fake unless ice staff/sword and shield but if they do the base job of holding boss still and not dying, I don't care.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I'm amazed how some folks just obsess over this...my guild does everything and we just don't worry about it...so glad I don't have to use Dungeon Finder....one of the few times I tried DF I had some guy screech that I was a fake DPS because my Stam Nightblade wasn't a Dark Elf...seriously he had a total tantrum over it

It's just ridiculous...but it's never going to change because of the serious design flaws ESO is cursed with...and to that I say don't hate the player, hate the game.

To keep it a buck, I hate that player 😂 JK LOL

But no, I don't get why someone would care about the character race of someone in a random dungeon. You're not even going to group with them again. Ain't no design cure for that.

coop500 · January 19

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I'm amazed how some folks just obsess over this...my guild does everything and we just don't worry about it...so glad I don't have to use Dungeon Finder....one of the few times I tried DF I had some guy screech that I was a fake DPS because my Stam Nightblade wasn't a Dark Elf...seriously he had a total tantrum over it

It's just ridiculous...but it's never going to change because of the serious design flaws ESO is cursed with...and to that I say don't hate the player, hate the game.

Wow. I always use the dungeon finder and I never had anyone *** at me about race (and most of my mains are not meta), you found a rare creature that's for sure lol.

Sockermannen · January 20

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

I’m in the camp that normal dungeons really don’t need a proper tank, so for me it’s mostly a question on whenever i have to deal with the boss and it’s mechanics because someone else decided not to slot a taunt when they fake tanked or not.

Fake tank is a spectrum, and if you fake tank on a DPS build with a taunt you’re already on the better part of said spectrum since it means that i don’t have to deal with the responsibilities of a tank when i queued as DD. What for or how you built said character i don’t really care about.

Anumaril · January 20

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

The point of a tank is to prevent the group from dying by holding aggro. Their gear means less than nothing to me as long as they're doing their job.

It's another matter entirely if we're talking about a Normal Dungeon with high-levelled players and plenty of healing, then tanks are mostly not even necessary.

MidniteOwl1913 · January 20

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

LunaFlora wrote: »

Sailor_Palutena wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

a fake Tank is generally a Damage Dealer who queued as Tank to get into a Dungeon faster.
Generally they don't have a Tank build, don't use Taunts, nor do they care about their group.

technically a Healer could also queue as a Tank and be a fake Tank, but if that ever happens it's probably an accident instead of on purpose.

I always play as healer and it amuses me how "healing" has a higher level of threat than damage output. Whenever I get into a group with a fake tank, all enemies and bosses come straight to me.

happens to me too when i heal and there's a fake tank.

Me too. So what exactly about healing is a higher level of threat? I've always wondered why I keep getting targeted... How does the game decide which player to focus on?

peacenote · January 20

Other/mixed (feel free to comment!)

Somewhere in between

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

and

I don't care and just wanna see the results

If you queue as a "fake" tank, even in a normal, you'd better be prepared to throw on a taunt and fill that spot IF the group needs it. If you have an Amory setup, even better. So I do care, but only from the perspective that I want a smooth run. It's not cool if you are COMPLETELY fake and have no idea how to step into the role if need be, but I'm fine if everyone is a super high DPS and we don't really need a tank. Also, I have no desire to nitpick how people are filling their roles. But on the other hand I would say "don't die repeatedly" vs. "don't die" because even real tanks can die (especially learning ones) and the group can be wiped because of mechanics. It's not right to accuse someone of being a fake tank because of one death, a missed taunt, or the ability to kill some things.

In my experience "fake DPS" - which I know is a debatable term - is far more frustrating. At least, it is to me, running as a healer. Often I get a real tank and two DPS who do less damage than I can as a fully specced healer, and boy is that a painful run.

Arunei · January 20

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

Taril wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

I'm genuinely puzzled if there people think ONLY those using Ice Staff or S&B builds can properly tank, given there are a number of Sets, Skills, and now Scribing things that can Taunt.

When dealing with end-game content, it's not about Taunt access. It's about the fact that Ice Staff and SnB get passives that improve Block mitigation and reduce Block cost.

That is the reason why those weapons are the "Tank" weapons because properly built tanks HAVE to use them due to those passives.

They are not necessary for normal dungeons, where you only really need to block heavy attacks because damage is basically 0 anyway (Even then, blocking heavy attacks is mostly so you don't get thrown about the place like a ragdoll rather than the damage you'd take)

But for any real content, you need the additional bonuses for blocking.

So, and this is a genuine question and not a snarky one, no one doing endgame content has made a viable tank build without using S&B or Ice Staff?

As far as I'm aware, no.

There's potential for Sorc to attempt it, due to Bound Armor providing massive block mitigation bonus, but the issue is still with sustain.

Given that recovery for the resource that your blocks cost is halted while bracing (Combined with the need to block even LA's in the most difficult content) makes the reduction more necessary. This would be amplified by the extra sustain issues of spamming Bound Armour every 5 seconds to maintain the block mitigation buff (On top of your regular maintenance of spamming Shields and applying your Buffs/Debuffs)

Huh. I don't do endgame content since I'm not nearly that good (I get overwhelmed easily by trying to focus on too many things and it throws me off my rotation so bad I can't get it back until I wind up dying, so...) so I never realized Tanks are so limited in their options for that stuff.

Amottica · January 20

All of the answers that have a related statement are so specific it leaves so much out. That is the problem with complex answers and ends up making the results useless.

A tank, a real tank, is one that has a taunt and uses it to keep aggro on the more dangerous NPCs, which ofc includes bosses. Death of a tank does not make them a fake tank. They may be inexperienced, or the healer is not doing much heals or is fak.
Yes, there are some fights with some heavy damage.

Which leads to a fake tank is one that does not have a taunt slotted or does not use. S&B or ice staff are not required for a player to taunt. If the tank is not taunting, especially not taunting the bosses, then it becomes problematic since the DDs cannot focus as much on their damage because the boss is on them for part of the fight.

And we are not talking about ideal since that varies from dungoen difficulty to dungeon difficulty.

Sarannah · January 21

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Also, a lot of previous discussions on this topic accuse tanks (and healers) with more selfish builds of being fake. Personally, I don't have a problem if someone prioritizes doing the basic responsibilities of the job over trying to buff DPS. I'll take a tank who can taunt and hold a boss without dying over group buffs any day. Relatedly, I get the need for group buffs in trials, but in a dungeon queue there are only 2 DPS and the additional damage they get from a tank's buffs isn't always enough to expect all tanks to focus on buffing them over just building a tank that can do some of its own damage.

As a tank I have actually tested this myself when players on the forums told me selfish tanks reduce dps, so I tested a selfish gear set tank vs group buff gear set tank. And my conclusion was that a selfish tank isn't just dying less, they actually massively increase dps and the speed at which dungeons are run. The advantages of a selfish tank are that if you hold aggro on everything, the dps can actually perform their rotation, increasing their dps over tenfold. Another advantage of being a selfish tank is you die less, so even if the group wipes or if there is a fake healer, you can rez everyone and continue the fight. Another advantage of a selfish tank is, being able to slot buff and debuff skills instead of survivability/heal skills to stay alive. Another advantage of a selfish tank is, noone is taking damage, meaning the healer can do dps instead of healing. Making it a three dps very fast run!
When using group buff sets as a tank, if the dps is low and dps players aren't performing their rotations, these dps groupbuff sets will barely even make a difference. The result of using group buff sets is the tank dying more, the dps doing lower dps, and the tank not being able to hold aggro on everything.

So personally I massively prefer selfish tanking myself. Even though my selfish tanks themselves do less than 2k dps, I basically never had a problem with low or 'fake' dps due to the above reasons.

BananaBender · January 21

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

Arunei wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

I'm genuinely puzzled if there people think ONLY those using Ice Staff or S&B builds can properly tank, given there are a number of Sets, Skills, and now Scribing things that can Taunt.

When dealing with end-game content, it's not about Taunt access. It's about the fact that Ice Staff and SnB get passives that improve Block mitigation and reduce Block cost.

That is the reason why those weapons are the "Tank" weapons because properly built tanks HAVE to use them due to those passives.

They are not necessary for normal dungeons, where you only really need to block heavy attacks because damage is basically 0 anyway (Even then, blocking heavy attacks is mostly so you don't get thrown about the place like a ragdoll rather than the damage you'd take)

But for any real content, you need the additional bonuses for blocking.

So, and this is a genuine question and not a snarky one, no one doing endgame content has made a viable tank build without using S&B or Ice Staff?

Yes and no. If you only want to survive you are always better off using S&B or Ice Staff, but if that isn't a concern you can go with anything else. In a few cases you can have the OT on restoration staff for extra healing for the group.

I've seen some people use Dual Wield swords on vSE HM first boss for more weapon and spell damage for extra healing, because majority of the damage there isn't blockable anyway. Still, S&B and Ice staves still remain the most popular option for that fight.

Dual Wield and medium armor is enough to get you through any veteran trial even. I'm not saying it's better for the group that you do that, but it's very much possible. Some time ago I tanked a vRG pug in medium armor and DW on a templar.

Proof in the spoiler↓

This was the build I used. Thief Mundus and Max Health & Stam food

Logs for anyone who is interested (ignore the dungeon run)
https://www.esologs.com/reports/a:wq2kHLhnP3XcT1YC