What is a fank tank and when is it a problem?

BXR_Lonestar · January 21

Other/mixed (feel free to comment!)

A fake tank is anything other than a legitimate tank that is queing for the tank role. I.E., a DPS or a healer (regardless of quality).

TBH, this is only ever a problem for vet dungeons, and even then, there is only a select few (mostly DLC dungeons) that this is really a problem in, and those are dungeons where there are mechanics that absolutely require a tank to hold a boss or minions or both during certain phases of the fight. For instance, the sphere fight in Depths of Malatar. Without a tank to hold the aurorans, this fight can be miserable.

PapaTankers · January 21

Sarannah wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Also, a lot of previous discussions on this topic accuse tanks (and healers) with more selfish builds of being fake. Personally, I don't have a problem if someone prioritizes doing the basic responsibilities of the job over trying to buff DPS. I'll take a tank who can taunt and hold a boss without dying over group buffs any day. Relatedly, I get the need for group buffs in trials, but in a dungeon queue there are only 2 DPS and the additional damage they get from a tank's buffs isn't always enough to expect all tanks to focus on buffing them over just building a tank that can do some of its own damage.

As a tank I have actually tested this myself when players on the forums told me selfish tanks reduce dps, so I tested a selfish gear set tank vs group buff gear set tank. And my conclusion was that a selfish tank isn't just dying less, they actually massively increase dps and the speed at which dungeons are run. The advantages of a selfish tank are that if you hold aggro on everything, the dps can actually perform their rotation, increasing their dps over tenfold. Another advantage of being a selfish tank is you die less, so even if the group wipes or if there is a fake healer, you can rez everyone and continue the fight. Another advantage of a selfish tank is, being able to slot buff and debuff skills instead of survivability/heal skills to stay alive. Another advantage of a selfish tank is, noone is taking damage, meaning the healer can do dps instead of healing. Making it a three dps very fast run!
When using group buff sets as a tank, if the dps is low and dps players aren't performing their rotations, these dps groupbuff sets will barely even make a difference. The result of using group buff sets is the tank dying more, the dps doing lower dps, and the tank not being able to hold aggro on everything.

So personally I massively prefer selfish tanking myself. Even though my selfish tanks themselves do less than 2k dps, I basically never had a problem with low or 'fake' dps due to the above reasons.

Tank only really needs selfish sets if they are bad or inexperianced in tanking.
You can preform all of the above tasks with group buff sets also.

moo_2021 · January 21

I don't care and just wanna see the results

Sarannah wrote: »

When using group buff sets as a tank, if the dps is low and dps players aren't performing their rotations, these dps groupbuff sets will barely even make a difference. The result of using group buff sets is the tank dying more, the dps doing lower dps, and the tank not being able to hold aggro on everything.

Been tanking in normal dungeons for 2 years and I don't even know how to be a non-selfish tank, or what's the point of it. I just wear my pvp set with a taunt skill, burst heal myself and others, and sometimes contribute to half of damage.

What's to complain about? The roles are all fake, meaningless labels. All we need is 3 others who no matter how bad are definitely better than solo. Would anyone prefer to wait in the group finder instead? could have finished a run at the same time.

Desiato · January 21

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

This is why I use sets like olo and pa for my normal tank builds. They buff me and the group. Well, if they read group chat and understand how to get the olo buff! Those sets are way better than leeching plate.

Orbital78 · January 21

Sarannah wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Also, a lot of previous discussions on this topic accuse tanks (and healers) with more selfish builds of being fake. Personally, I don't have a problem if someone prioritizes doing the basic responsibilities of the job over trying to buff DPS. I'll take a tank who can taunt and hold a boss without dying over group buffs any day. Relatedly, I get the need for group buffs in trials, but in a dungeon queue there are only 2 DPS and the additional damage they get from a tank's buffs isn't always enough to expect all tanks to focus on buffing them over just building a tank that can do some of its own damage.

As a tank I have actually tested this myself when players on the forums told me selfish tanks reduce dps, so I tested a selfish gear set tank vs group buff gear set tank. And my conclusion was that a selfish tank isn't just dying less, they actually massively increase dps and the speed at which dungeons are run. The advantages of a selfish tank are that if you hold aggro on everything, the dps can actually perform their rotation, increasing their dps over tenfold. Another advantage of being a selfish tank is you die less, so even if the group wipes or if there is a fake healer, you can rez everyone and continue the fight. Another advantage of a selfish tank is, being able to slot buff and debuff skills instead of survivability/heal skills to stay alive. Another advantage of a selfish tank is, noone is taking damage, meaning the healer can do dps instead of healing. Making it a three dps very fast run!
When using group buff sets as a tank, if the dps is low and dps players aren't performing their rotations, these dps groupbuff sets will barely even make a difference. The result of using group buff sets is the tank dying more, the dps doing lower dps, and the tank not being able to hold aggro on everything.

So personally I massively prefer selfish tanking myself. Even though my selfish tanks themselves do less than 2k dps, I basically never had a problem with low or 'fake' dps due to the above reasons.

Three dps can do many dlc hm too. I'd much rather have a selfish tank, than a healer in most cases. You can always adapt too.

Bobargus · January 22

Other/mixed (feel free to comment!)

As long as the group is able to finish the activity without any problems, i don't care what role anybody plays as.

Jimbru · January 22

They're fake unless ice staff/sword and shield but if they do the base job of holding boss still and not dying, I don't care.

If you do not have the ability to taunt and survive holding aggro, which is the role of a tank, then you are NOT a tank, regardless of your build. A real tank has a real tank build: heavy armor, shield, at least 30K HP and so forth. Anything else is a fake tank of some degree, though I will admit, I've seen some pretty good fakes over the years.

The problem I have with fake tanks is simple. You queue for a random, the queue pops and places you in a dungeon where you need a real tank, and one of two things happens. The fake tank either leaves immediately, or proves unable to finish the dungeon and THEN leaves. Either way, the group is now stranded without a tank, with three options.

A. The group can try to push through without a tank, maybe using a tank companion. Which it must be said, a proper tank companion supported by heals and a little heavy attack direction to keep them on the right target, can take you pretty far in many dungeons.

B. The group can wait on the buggy-arsed queue to hopefully give them another tank. Good luck with that happening in anything resembling a timely manner.

C. The group can give up, break up and go back into the queue.

Whatever the case, most people only have a limited amount of time to play, and that time is now being wasted because of a fake tank. Those who play or defend playing fake tanks don't acknowledge that externality. Fake tanks adversely affect others' ability to play and enjoy the game, and I can only hope that someday ZOS finally will do something to weed them out.

Jimbru · January 22

They're fake unless ice staff/sword and shield but if they do the base job of holding boss still and not dying, I don't care.

Sailor_Palutena wrote: »

I always play as healer and it amuses me how "healing" has a higher level of threat than damage output. Whenever I get into a group with a fake tank, all enemies and bosses come straight to me.

Yep. I play dungeon healer a lot, and many times I have ended up "tanking" as a healer and just healing myself through it. Reminds me of "clank" builds in Fiesta; a Cleric (the healing class in that game) playing the role of tank by holding aggro with melee attacks and healing. Cleric + tank = clank, hence the name of the build. It was a deliberate build and a fun style to play. Now I'm wondering if a combo tank/healer could be made to work in ESO. Hmmm...

Taril · January 22

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

Jimbru wrote: »

Now I'm wondering if a combo tank/healer could be made to work in ESO. Hmmm...

That's mostly just a normal tank to be honest (Especially Warden/Necro/NB whom will often slot heal skills on back bar to say nothing about Tankplars whom use several abilites that pump out AoE healing).

The main issue with it is that a Tank will want to be stacking health while healing scales with DPS stats. So much like how a Tank build won't push out much damage due to lacking damage stats, they won't push out much healing either. Though it can still be enough to top people off (I know I've done it plenty during WB's where I'll tank it and be tossing out something like a Malevolent Offering or Rend Flesh to fully heal someone who got blasted down to 10% by an AoE)

The exception would be those few skills that DO scale off max health and help allies like Polar Winds, Igneous Shield and the Damage Shield focus Script.

Of course, for Dungeons you could actually get away with a full damage stat Tank, whereby you use massive shields to buffer incoming damage (As well as highly scaled HoTs), while having heals to keep the rest of your party alive. Which is basically just another form of "Fake Tank, but slotted a Taunt" only instead of being a DPS queued as Tank... You're a healer that's queued as tank.

sarahthes · January 22

Other/mixed (feel free to comment!)

Jimbru wrote: »

If you do not have the ability to taunt and survive holding aggro, which is the role of a tank, then you are NOT a tank, regardless of your build. A real tank has a real tank build: heavy armor, shield, at least 30K HP and so forth. Anything else is a fake tank of some degree, though I will admit, I've seen some pretty good fakes over the years.

The problem I have with fake tanks is simple. You queue for a random, the queue pops and places you in a dungeon where you need a real tank, and one of two things happens. The fake tank either leaves immediately, or proves unable to finish the dungeon and THEN leaves. Either way, the group is now stranded without a tank, with three options.

A. The group can try to push through without a tank, maybe using a tank companion. Which it must be said, a proper tank companion supported by heals and a little heavy attack direction to keep them on the right target, can take you pretty far in many dungeons.

B. The group can wait on the buggy-arsed queue to hopefully give them another tank. Good luck with that happening in anything resembling a timely manner.

C. The group can give up, break up and go back into the queue.

Whatever the case, most people only have a limited amount of time to play, and that time is now being wasted because of a fake tank. Those who play or defend playing fake tanks don't acknowledge that externality. Fake tanks adversely affect others' ability to play and enjoy the game, and I can only hope that someday ZOS finally will do something to weed them out.

I can survive any (normal) dungeon in my regular medium DPS gear while dpsing with a taunt. I have to pay attention and play carefully, and will likely slot a self heal or a shield skill for certain specific fights, but most of the time that simply isn't necessary. I will also contribute at least 35% of the group dps, perhaps more.

Consider this: endgame tanks *often* tank in medium armor, or at least 2-4 pieces of it.

Gear and skills (other than taunt) do not define a tank in this game.

Franchise408 · January 22

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

If you can perform the role of the tank; i.e.: taunting, holding aggro, and coordinating the mechanics, I simply don't care how you do it. I don't care if your gear setup is rubedite and spit. You might not be a *dedicated* tank, but you fulfilled the duties necessary for the job. Particularly, in normal dungeons, full blown dedicated tanks aren't necessary anyways. So if you want to tank in a chest piece made of stale ramen noodles, be my guest.

In vet, I'm even forgiving if you can do the job. I am a guild trial tank that has tanked vet content with gear like Combat Physician, and made it work. I don't subscribe to the philosophy that you need to be running cookie cutter meta builds and sets to run through and complete the content, as long as you can perform the job duties.

If you queue as a tank and can't even hold aggro, I'm side-eyeing you. If it's content that requires some actual competence, then I may have to vote kick you if you aren't doing your job.

Avran_Sylt · January 22

If they taunt, hold boss and don't die, then they're not fake.

Also if you want transmutes, do PvP (EG: battlegrounds where you'll always get AP even if you lose).

Rewards for the worthy (after acquiring a cumulative 20,000 AP over at most 3 matches (assuming all three are losses)) will drop a (25) transmute geode per day. (And first win of the day gives a guaranteed 10 transmute geodes).

Hop in an 8v8.