Forum Moderation PSA

Snamyap

Moderation is one of the reasons I stopped playing this game over a year ago. I'm fifty now, I won't be talked down to like I'm a toddler. But I guess the infamous Dutch Directness isn't tolerated in the land of the free and the home of the brave. Words are scary.

thejadefalcon

SilverBride wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

It's ok to talk to a moderator about it as they are very helpful and knowledgeable.

I approached a moderator once asking for help with something. I'm afraid to say anything more.

I'm happy to. I've asked for feedback on certain decisions, so I can know how I can in the future word certain things without tripping over the community guidelines. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

DemonicGoat

Throwing my hat in here.

I want my my recent moderations reviewed @ZOS_Kevin

SilverBride

thejadefalcon wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

It's ok to talk to a moderator about it as they are very helpful and knowledgeable.

I approached a moderator once asking for help with something. I'm afraid to say anything more.

I'm happy to. I've asked for feedback on certain decisions, so I can know how I can in the future word certain things without tripping over the community guidelines. [snip]

I wasn't ghosted...

[edited to remove quote]

SilverBride

@ZOS_Kevin

PLEASE give us permission to post moderations that we feel were completely unwarranted in this thread. Seeing specific examples really brings the severity of this issue to light.

Aurielle

SilverBride wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin

PLEASE give us permission to post moderations that we feel were completely unwarranted in this thread. Seeing specific examples really brings the severity of this issue to light.

I think this would unfortunately violate the rule of not discussing specific moderation decisions. I sent my own examples of what I felt was overly excessive moderation to Kevin directly, which is much safer than airing it out in the open.

Pelanora

Basically, if you want a good chat about anything game related, you have to do it in the eso sub-reddit. The downsides of reddit are waaaaaaaaaaay fewer than those of here.

And people get to post jokes and funny takes and not have it taken down.

And the trolls don't survive, as the players can deal with them directly. Here, the forums own rules protect them. The irony of this forum is the moderation entrenches the resident trolls.

thejadefalcon

thejadefalcon wrote: »

[snip]

[edited for bashing]

Yeah, that tracks. Pretty much exactly what I expected. Even in a thread about moderators throwing around their weight without thinking, you get done in for the ever fluid and constantly changing concept of "bashing", without explanation, without ever getting a response from a moderator.

SilverBride

Pelanora wrote: »

Basically, if you want a good chat about anything game related, you have to do it in the eso sub-reddit. The downsides of reddit are waaaaaaaaaaay fewer than those of here.

The ESO Reddit is way too toxic for my taste. Surely there is a happy medium somewhere between here and there.

LadyGP

SilverBride wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin

PLEASE give us permission to post moderations that we feel were completely unwarranted in this thread. Seeing specific examples really brings the severity of this issue to light.

Not sure this would be the right forum (no pun intended) to discuss these kind of specific instances. Depending on the situation, some users could get singled out or "targeted" so to speak. I'd say those kind of situations should be discussed on a one on one setting.

BUT I do think having conversation about moderating where situations are more or less sumarized like "A joke was made in a light hearted way about the server performance this year and I was given a 72 hour ban for bashing." should happen.

A Public conversation should happen for full transparency IMO. Just keep the personal specifics or user identifying stuff to their side convos.

SteveCampsOut

SilverBride wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin

PLEASE give us permission to post moderations that we feel were completely unwarranted in this thread. Seeing specific examples really brings the severity of this issue to light.

You don't have to post the moderations. Kevin can see them on your profile.

TaSheen

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin

PLEASE give us permission to post moderations that we feel were completely unwarranted in this thread. Seeing specific examples really brings the severity of this issue to light.

You don't have to post the moderations. Kevin can see them on your profile.

True. And really (personal opinion here) - if I had moderations I wanted to discuss with Kevin, I probably would NOT want them displayed here publicly.

dk_dunkirk

Pelanora wrote: »

Basically, if you want a good chat about anything game related, you have to do it in the eso sub-reddit. The downsides of reddit are waaaaaaaaaaay fewer than those of here.

And people get to post jokes and funny takes and not have it taken down.

And the trolls don't survive, as the players can deal with them directly. Here, the forums own rules protect them. The irony of this forum is the moderation entrenches the resident trolls.

Reddit is a wretched hive of scum and villainy.

dk_dunkirk

SilverBride wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Basically, if you want a good chat about anything game related, you have to do it in the eso sub-reddit. The downsides of reddit are waaaaaaaaaaay fewer than those of here.

The ESO Reddit is way too toxic for my taste. Surely there is a happy medium somewhere between here and there.

THIS. (Sorry, I just felt this needed more agreement than a click on the reaction.)

SilverBride

I wouldn't feel the need to bring some of these things here if an appeal really did something. Because I was literally shocked by some of these and felt they should have been overturned.

vsrs_au

The ESO reddit is very toxic, because too many of its members use downvotes as a weapon against anyone they don't like or who challenges their opinions.

Rohamad_Ali

I am terrified to post in these forums here.

Pelanora

SilverBride wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Basically, if you want a good chat about anything game related, you have to do it in the eso sub-reddit. The downsides of reddit are waaaaaaaaaaay fewer than those of here.

The ESO Reddit is way too toxic for my taste. Surely there is a happy medium somewhere between here and there.

Well, players can deal with toxicity directly, so it won't work for all, no.

But while it might be slightly less interesting, the sub reddit is usually more fun, and less complainingy.

DemonicGoat

Stating an opinion (with no derogatory language!) is a 3 day ban, and endangers my whole account?

CHILLING.

Pelanora

vsrs_au wrote: »

The ESO reddit is very toxic, because too many of its members use downvotes as a weapon against anyone they don't like or who challenges their opinions.

Rather other people than deleted and moderated into permabans. And being disagreed with, is life. Challenging opinions is how life progresses.

There is definitely some weird downvoters thing going on, some people sitting in the sub who just vote down everything as soon as it's posted, but that gets ignored, and usually turns around with time into upvotes.

I just like the relief of the freedom of it.

But as per above ^^^^

CHILLING is key i guess.

M0ntie

I'm in support of a review of moderation. A second opinion (from an experienced moderator) should be done before anyone is banned or suspended.

I was extremely surprised myself to be pinged by a moderator for "baiting" when all I did was express a different opinion and pointed out that there are always some complaints about everything.

Obviously there does need to be some moderation here, and personal attacks are completely not on.

Ruthless

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

After removing a few off topic posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.

Just had two 72 hour bans in the last two weeks, one for a satirical post on what might be in the letter - done for bashing and slander, though I never mentioned anyone by name, and it was clearly (intended to be) a gentle, humorous post; the second for commenting on the letter, in particular comparing the timing of the Gold Road reveal (early January) with the "wait until April" comment and the cancelling of the US meet and greet. This was done for Conspiracy

Clearly these two posts had touched a nerve, otherwise why go over the top and put in a ban? But why not just remove the posts? You can remove uncivil and unconstructive comments, but you have to go further and ban me too? What was achieved by a 72 hour ban? Are you trying to teach me a lesson, make me a better man? Because it feels like you're trying to push me away.

Both were comments on something that is incredibly important to us (well, me): the very future of the game.

Without wanting to sound too dramatic, for me this game has been an involvement of over ten years and thousands of pounds. I started playing in beta, I've been playing continuously to this day. In fact I started with Morrowind, played through Oblivion and Skyrim to ESO today... pretty much to the complete exclusion of other games.

It is not conspiracy to wonder what is going on. And it won't stop people wondering by giving them a ban, even if they put two and two together to make five. Were my thoughts so dangerous? Because to me the danger is in turning up at the eleventh hour, slamming on the breaks and saying "You know that cadence of chapters where we'd do a big reveal in a couple of weeks? We've binned that. We'll tell you what you can expect in April".

Transparency is the key to fighting conspiracy. Tell us and we wouldn't have to make it up for ourselves.

In any case, because of the bans I've cancelled my ESO+ subscription (don't worry, it was painless, I have 160 days left ). You've finally managed to push me away

you seam to be banned now o7

MasterSpatula

MJallday wrote: »

Can we not just have 24 hours where we can say and do what we want? Like the purge?

Get it all out of our system

Look, I agree with the rules. (Well, not the "no discussion of moderator action" rule. Rules of that type pose inherent dangers wherever they appear, from government to the workplace to a gaming forum).

It's just that I maintain--with as close to full certainty as I'm capable of--that in ten years, I've crossed the line exactly once, no more, and that's far from what my record of multiple edits, warnings, and two suspensions shows. I'm well-trained in communication and precision of language. If I thought anything I was saying qualified as bashing, I would not say it. Period.

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think people take the time to write involved DMs stating that they are not guilty of an infraction if they don't sincerely believe themselves innocent, and no one likes being wrongly punished. That's how frustration grows into animosity. That's how users of a forum stop giving moderators the benefit of the doubt.

Engagement, rational defense of actions taken, taking concerns seriously, dialectic conversation, these things help people of good faith see the good faith in each other. I empathize with the notion that if one starts engaging with everyone who objects to punishment, one fears one might do nothing but respond to DMs all day rather than actually doing one's job. But the moderators here are exercising authority over others. There are ethical obligations that go with that.

it is much easier to empathize with a person when you've had genuine human engagements with them. Conversely, if someone plainly believes you've exercised authority inappropriately and you ignore their concern, that will only reinforce the belief in their head. Resentment builds. Animosity builds. And those feelings rub off on our opinions of the rest of the company, as well. Community suffers. Relationships between developers and customers fester. Customers begin to assume the worst, because over-moderation and ignoring us when we call it out makes it feel unreasonable not to assume the worst.

So no, I don't want "The Purge" here. I want effective moderation from moderators I believe to be fair-minded and acting in good faith. I want stringent protection from abusive behavior, but I also want to see examples of the humility that is always a non-negotiable requirement for handling authority responsibly.

Arunei

Ruthless wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

After removing a few off topic posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.

Just had two 72 hour bans in the last two weeks, one for a satirical post on what might be in the letter - done for bashing and slander, though I never mentioned anyone by name, and it was clearly (intended to be) a gentle, humorous post; the second for commenting on the letter, in particular comparing the timing of the Gold Road reveal (early January) with the "wait until April" comment and the cancelling of the US meet and greet. This was done for Conspiracy

Clearly these two posts had touched a nerve, otherwise why go over the top and put in a ban? But why not just remove the posts? You can remove uncivil and unconstructive comments, but you have to go further and ban me too? What was achieved by a 72 hour ban? Are you trying to teach me a lesson, make me a better man? Because it feels like you're trying to push me away.

Both were comments on something that is incredibly important to us (well, me): the very future of the game.

Without wanting to sound too dramatic, for me this game has been an involvement of over ten years and thousands of pounds. I started playing in beta, I've been playing continuously to this day. In fact I started with Morrowind, played through Oblivion and Skyrim to ESO today... pretty much to the complete exclusion of other games.

It is not conspiracy to wonder what is going on. And it won't stop people wondering by giving them a ban, even if they put two and two together to make five. Were my thoughts so dangerous? Because to me the danger is in turning up at the eleventh hour, slamming on the breaks and saying "You know that cadence of chapters where we'd do a big reveal in a couple of weeks? We've binned that. We'll tell you what you can expect in April".

Transparency is the key to fighting conspiracy. Tell us and we wouldn't have to make it up for ourselves.

In any case, because of the bans I've cancelled my ESO+ subscription (don't worry, it was painless, I have 160 days left ). You've finally managed to push me away

you seam to be banned now o7

Welp, if that's not a perfect case in point...

AtriaKhorist

MasterSpatula wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

Can we not just have 24 hours where we can say and do what we want? Like the purge?

Get it all out of our system

Look, I agree with the rules. (Well, not the "no discussion of moderator action" rule. Rules of that type pose inherent dangers wherever they appear, from government to the workplace to a gaming forum).

It's just that I maintain--with as close to full certainty as I'm capable of--that in ten years, I've crossed the line exactly once, no more, and that's far from what my record of multiple edits, warnings, and two suspensions shows. I'm well-trained in communication and precision of language. If I thought anything I was saying qualified as bashing, I would not say it. Period.

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think people take the time to write involved DMs stating that they are not guilty of an infraction if they don't sincerely believe themselves innocent, and no one likes being wrongly punished. That's how frustration grows into animosity. That's how users of a forum stop giving moderators the benefit of the doubt.

Engagement, rational defense of actions taken, taking concerns seriously, dialectic conversation, these things help people of good faith see the good faith in each other. I empathize with the notion that if one starts engaging with everyone who objects to punishment, one fears one might do nothing but respond to DMs all day rather than actually doing one's job. But the moderators here are exercising authority over others. There are ethical obligations that go with that.

it is much easier to empathize with a person when you've had genuine human engagements with them. Conversely, if someone plainly believes you've exercised authority inappropriately and you ignore their concern, that will only reinforce the belief in their head. Resentment builds. Animosity builds. And those feelings rub off on our opinions of the rest of the company, as well. Community suffers. Relationships between developers and customers fester. Customers begin to assume the worst, because over-moderation and ignoring us when we call it out makes it feel unreasonable not to assume the worst.

So no, I don't want "The Purge" here. I want effective moderation from moderators I believe to be fair-minded and acting in good faith. I want stringent protection from abusive behavior, but I also want to see examples of the humility that is always a non-negotiable requirement for handling authority responsibly.

Sidenote, this is what riles me up even beyond most people. Actually being trained in communication and education of other adults, including how to criticize them with the goal of positive change. No, not everyone will be accepting, and nobody doing such professionally will always get it right either - in particular in the environment of an online forum - but too much of what I have seen isn't just not helpful but outright detrimental.

My trust in moderation here is subzero by now, both from a personal and a professional POV.

ApoAlaia

vsrs_au wrote: »

The ESO reddit is very toxic, because too many of its members use downvotes as a weapon against anyone they don't like or who challenges their opinions.

Although somewhat OT this is why I wince when people request a 'disagree' button in the forum.

The way is currently set up if one agrees with the contents of a given post and has nothing further to elaborate on one can just click the relevant button to express it rather than having to create a new post to do so (which would clutter the threads beyond readability).

The substantiation is already provided by the post one is agreeing with and if one feels that one does generally agree but there is something that one may want to add or elaborate further on well, one can go ahead and do that too.

If however one disagrees with the post, one can either go ahead and elaborate - thus exposing one's arguments to the same peer scrutiny as the ones expressed in the post one is disagreeing with - or 'forever keep one's peace' (so to speak); a 'disagree' without elaborating or substantiating is of very little value; at best a somewhat unreliable measure of background noise, at worst a tool to silence opinions whilst avoiding any scrutiny of one's own.

dk_dunkirk

vsrs_au wrote: »

The ESO reddit is very toxic, because too many of its members use downvotes as a weapon against anyone they don't like or who challenges their opinions.

Everything on Reddit is being gamed. Reddit sells the ability to manipulate what's happening on the site. It only stands to reason that if a company has a well-enough-placed product in a market such that it spawns a dedicated sub-reddit, that they would make sure that the coverage there is generally positive and encouraging of spending more money, whether by having prominent members of that sub or by paying Reddit directly, or both.

I've been trying the ESO sub lately, and the results have been predictably terrible. I'm being downvoted to oblivion for stating straightforward things like basic mathematical facts about statistics and the difference between revenue and profit. I'm surprised to discover that I think I prefer these forums because people are just more honest in their bias.

Dragonnord

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin
I think the moderators are doing a great job. Even know the moderation here is strict it helps keep the forums a civil safe environment, and the moderators are very nice and respectful too.

I fear if moderation changes or ends up being less then the forums might end up becoming disorganized and toxic like social media. Please don't change moderation.

And just like every other opinion posted on the forums, people come in on the first page and say, no, everything is perfect, don't change anything. Ever. For any reason. Like, there's literally no wiggle room on the issue, and the OP had absolutely nothing of value to add to the conversation.

Does it sound like I'm bitter? It's only because I am. I've had this kind of instant response to suggestions many times.

To the moderation, I would cite a case where I've been completely blindsided by an action, but we can't talk about that.

And I'll bet this response is just a bit too direct, and falls afoul of some other rule. I'm just going to have to chance it. But therein lies part of the problem. The rules are pretty subjective, and can be bent to a moderators opinion and interpretation.

I agree 100%. I feel the same. There are people in these forums attacking and bashing ZOS ALL THE TIME, they're complaining about EVERY SINGLE THING IN THE GAME, however, you say something back, to defend the game, even to defend ZOS, or you even sound (in your writing) angry or confrontative and you are warned, suspended, banned, thread close, etc.

I also agree moderation needs a very close look and a big change regarding how forums are being moderated.

I even have an example where I was warned because I responded with "LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL" to a comment, laughing at the completely wrong and misleading statement, and I was warned, just because I wrote a "LOL".

I have the screenshot in my e-mail.
 

RomanRex

Haven’t read the whole thread. Just contributing my experiences.

The moderators on the forums are heavy handed interpreting what is a violation and they are constantly trying to close/merge threads when they shouldn’t be.

I would like to see some type of regular feedback/evaluation implemented on the forums to keep their overly brash actions in-check. We have consequences for our comments if they are deemed inappropriate and they should also have actions taken against them for inappropriate moderating.

huskandhunger

Yes


It's why I have become the soul of brevity

Heavy Moderation, the self, the spirit, the game, panopticon