Forum Moderation PSA

Ruthless

Just look up the older posts of accounts that posted in the Overland Difficulty thread, Everyone is almost banned lol

Sakiri

Desiato wrote: »

I prefer well moderated forums. I honestly can't recall ever intentionally breaking a rule in one, including here.

I think they should only invoke the TOS in significant cases without ambiguity. The TOS is a legal document intended to shield the service provider. Obviously almost no one reads them and it is impossible to argue against them as they are designed to cover all scenarios.

Most posts should be moderated according to a human readable code of conduct.

Permanent bans aren't necessary in most cases. This is especially true because of the long term relationship many players have with Zenimax. Through a 10 year period, any individual may experience a huge array of real life experiences that could affect how they communicate online. A player should be forgiven for making some mistakes while enduring harsh real life challenges. They probably just need a time out.

Furthermore, misunderstandings are normal in all human interactions, but especially in text. There is always an error rate. Therefore, one who posts more, will likely have a greater number of misunderstandings with the mods. There are banned accounts with 4000+ well-intentioned posts because of a handful of misunderstandings or mistakes over the course of several years.

So it's important that ZOS reviews the history of a forum user and asks themselves if they are truly a bad actor.

I think that in most cases ZOS should have escalating suspensions. Even ones that might last a year or more in the case of repeat offenders. Actually permanent bans should only be for significant cases.

Dude.

I caught a warning with reasons given that had absolutely nothing to do with the post I made.

The moderation here isn't great. People should be doing it, not Ai. Ai can't determine context, sarcasm or eleventy billion other nuances people can.

silky_soft

Sakiri wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I prefer well moderated forums. I honestly can't recall ever intentionally breaking a rule in one, including here.

I think they should only invoke the TOS in significant cases without ambiguity. The TOS is a legal document intended to shield the service provider. Obviously almost no one reads them and it is impossible to argue against them as they are designed to cover all scenarios.

Most posts should be moderated according to a human readable code of conduct.

Permanent bans aren't necessary in most cases. This is especially true because of the long term relationship many players have with Zenimax. Through a 10 year period, any individual may experience a huge array of real life experiences that could affect how they communicate online. A player should be forgiven for making some mistakes while enduring harsh real life challenges. They probably just need a time out.

Furthermore, misunderstandings are normal in all human interactions, but especially in text. There is always an error rate. Therefore, one who posts more, will likely have a greater number of misunderstandings with the mods. There are banned accounts with 4000+ well-intentioned posts because of a handful of misunderstandings or mistakes over the course of several years.

So it's important that ZOS reviews the history of a forum user and asks themselves if they are truly a bad actor.

I think that in most cases ZOS should have escalating suspensions. Even ones that might last a year or more in the case of repeat offenders. Actually permanent bans should only be for significant cases.

Dude.

I caught a warning with reasons given that had absolutely nothing to do with the post I made.

The moderation here isn't great. People should be doing it, not Ai. Ai can't determine context, sarcasm or eleventy billion other nuances people can.

I don't think they use AI on here. It's all people reporting you a couple for times because they don't like your point of view. Remember each account has its own forum user.

Sakiri

silky_soft wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I prefer well moderated forums. I honestly can't recall ever intentionally breaking a rule in one, including here.

I think they should only invoke the TOS in significant cases without ambiguity. The TOS is a legal document intended to shield the service provider. Obviously almost no one reads them and it is impossible to argue against them as they are designed to cover all scenarios.

Most posts should be moderated according to a human readable code of conduct.

Permanent bans aren't necessary in most cases. This is especially true because of the long term relationship many players have with Zenimax. Through a 10 year period, any individual may experience a huge array of real life experiences that could affect how they communicate online. A player should be forgiven for making some mistakes while enduring harsh real life challenges. They probably just need a time out.

Furthermore, misunderstandings are normal in all human interactions, but especially in text. There is always an error rate. Therefore, one who posts more, will likely have a greater number of misunderstandings with the mods. There are banned accounts with 4000+ well-intentioned posts because of a handful of misunderstandings or mistakes over the course of several years.

So it's important that ZOS reviews the history of a forum user and asks themselves if they are truly a bad actor.

I think that in most cases ZOS should have escalating suspensions. Even ones that might last a year or more in the case of repeat offenders. Actually permanent bans should only be for significant cases.

Dude.

I caught a warning with reasons given that had absolutely nothing to do with the post I made.

The moderation here isn't great. People should be doing it, not Ai. Ai can't determine context, sarcasm or eleventy billion other nuances people can.

I don't think they use AI on here. It's all people reporting you a couple for times because they don't like your point of view. Remember each account has its own forum user.

I don't think so as the supposed broken rules made no sense in the context of the post. Like, bad character names/forum names and stuff. Made me wonder what in the world lol

katanagirl1

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'd like to see the inconsistencies addressed.

Just days ago, a thread on this very topic had included a couple of replies from ZOS staff which indicated that in that particular instance, discussing frustrations with the modertion was acceptable since it was providing feedback. But then soon after, another forum moderator stepped in and shut it down for "Bashing" because they determined that that's what the criticism was, and cited that it was against the ToS for bashing ZOS itself.

Yes, I don’t know what happened in that thread. Kevin was answering posts about the topic and then it got closed. I think every single thread about this topic has eventually been locked. That does not bode well.

ArchangelIsraphel

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Human nature being what it is, those who sometimes find themselves in a position where they're hit by moderation will consider the moderation oppressive, while those who never find themselves in that position will consider it spot on.

Personally, I'd like as a standard provision for people always to be notified when their post has been moderated including deletion, and I'm also sympathetic to the argument recently made in another thread that forum disciplinary points should expire after a set period otherwise an errant poster can never learn and start over with a clean slate.

There is a lot of nuance to a slate being wiped clean. Not saying we can't adopt something like that in the long-term. But that conversation will need to take a backseat while we get the conversations around moderation underway.

I think that conversation needs to be forefront. One of the biggest reasons that moderation feels so oppressive IS the points expiration.

I can't speak for others, but for myself one of the reasons that the current direction is so stressful is because points never expire.

Let's create a pretend poster for example.

They have 10,000 posts. They have posted in this forum for 7 years. The community generally thinks of that poster as positive member of the community. They have written guides, tried to be respectful, and are usually informative in their posts.

One time during the pandemic that poster got mad and told someone off they shouldn't have.

Another time, 7 years ago, before they understood back and forth, they didn't actually say anything all that bad but they posted one too many times for someone's liking and ended up banned.

They have not posted anything else bad since then.

This poster would today be in danger of a permanent ban on their next account action. Despite showing 4 years of perfect behavior and 7 years of an overall positive post history across thousands of posts.

Why? Because they messed up twice, points don't expire, and three strikes and you're out.

This profile is not a real person and is possibly slightly exaggerated. But, not by much. That's the lived reality of a lot of posters and it is a major contributing factor in why mods getting it wrong feels so incredibly oppressive.

You could end up permanently banned in 3 years because of a mistake a mod made today.

Just wanted to follow up on this real quick. The reason I noted that it needs to be addressed long term is because there is far more work and systems that need to be discussed when addressing a system like that. That involves a whole set of teams that are independent from me and have their own thoughts on how that process goes, in addition to legalities. Moderation retooling is something that can actively be addressed between myself and far less people.

Also, the system currently set up is not that strict. I think the example given is a far extreme of what happens now. We account for time and nuance when moderation happens. Again, agree that we should discuss the system, but trying to get what can be addressed now handled first.

@ZOS_Kevin First of all Kevin, I would like to thank you for taking an active role in communicating with us in regards to this topic once again. Although I participated in the last thread where we were giving feedback about moderation, I was not able to speak to you directly before the thread was locked down. I appreciate having the opportunity to do so now. When the time comes for you to engage in one-on-one discussions with us, I would welcome the chance to speak with you. My inbox is open to you.

I would also like to chime in on the feedback @spartaxoxo has given you. Unfortunately, I have also personally witnessed very similar situations on multiple occasions throughout my years posting here. I will also not go into detail in order to keep my post within forum regulation.

However, I will say it is unfortunate that well intentioned posters end up being disciplined quite harshly for posts which were not meant to be harmful to anyone. These are well spoken people, people who are quite willing to engage in polite discourse with users and moderators alike- would a friendly chat with such users about why the topic goes beyond the boundaries of the rules not be better than immediate disciplinary action? I am certain that such users would be happy to oblige in the future.

I feel it would be better to have moderation lean towards education first- especially in cases where, although a rule was technically broken, it is clear that no actual harm or threat to other posters was intended. In order to foster a community where we feel that our contributions to the forum are valued, I think that the ways in which a poster has interacted with the community through discussion should be of more importance than a one-off mistake with months to years in between.

Mistakes can easily be rectified if they are pointed out and the proper insight is given- a ban does not offer that chance. And unfortunately, if over the course of several yeas a user has accumulated enough mistakes, this is what happens.

I know that the moderators attempt to lead with education by issuing informational messages regarding why a post was removed, however, the information provided as to why is often not quite enough. Citing the rules in the TOS only leads to further confusion, because the wording is vague. This leads to further unintended infractions. I have said it before- but I would be happy to see you work on this.

I realize that working within the constraints of what the Vanilla Forums interface allows is difficult, and that the userbase is too large for a manual system to be implemented. However, if the steps which lead up to actual strikes were adjusted, I think we would see some better community building occur in the case of posters who genuinely want to contribute.

(Especially when it comes to things like off topic posts that are well intended, or posts meant to be insightful that get misinterpreted as discussing politics- many posts like these that get disciplined or removed are not actually trying to be hurtful at all. In a lot of cases, what a mod considers off topic was not actually off topic to the posters within the context of the thread. I really think how these labels are used needs to be looked at.)

I will end this post here for tonight. Thank you for your time and consideration on this matter.

SteveCampsOut

I've been a member here since November 9th of 2013. In that time, I've received 4 warnings and two 72 hour bans. That's over a 12 year period! Warnings over a year old should most certainly lose any points against you, even if the record needs to stay. In fact, I'm quite happy that I can go to my profile and see EXACTLY what comments or posts each and every one of those warnings and banning was caused by. I've already asked Kevin to look at my history as an example of snarky comments I've left that got me each warning and each banning. I fully expect reason to win the day in this because if I've only gotten 6 total actions in 12 years, I'd say I'm a Saint!

AtriaKhorist

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Again.. and again.. and again..
This is NOT the safe space you are looking for! This is not a happy place with fluffy unicorns. This is a gaming forum, where people are discussing, reporting and expressing their views on the PRODUCT they bought with their earned money. Sometimes controversial and confrontational. Deal with it.

Going to clarify slightly here. This should be a safe space for people to discuss, report and express their views. Absolutely. And there will be times where that discussion can be controversial and disagreements can (and should) happen. Those disagreements can happen without name calling or trying to ridicule another poster. That also makes people unwelcome to have conversations here. Confrontational does not need to be part of that equation. Conformational implies hostility, and that is not appropriate most cases here.

Again, we are going to chat with some of you in a one on one capacity to get feedback on how we can get to a better middle ground here, and have conversations with our mod team. That way, more open and honest conversations can happen, but folks still feel like their voice can be heard without fear of someone getting hostile toward them.

Also wanted to note that we hear the feedback on having more clearly defined rules, so we will work on that as well.

@ZOS_Kevin

But it isn't. It has not been for years, and some people are already gone over it.

The people who are still here are perhaps not the ones you need to have a conversation with, and even apologize to.

Aurielle

Is there a way to send @ZOS_Kevin messages directly? I tried to PM him some screenshots of especially egregious over-moderation (one in which I received an official warning that basically accused me of terrible things that I wasn’t anywhere close to actually doing, one in which I received a friendly reminder not to “spam” because I responded to a tongue-in-cheek thread with a simple and harmless joke, which was removed from the thread), but his name doesn’t come up when I try to send a direct message.

manukartofanu

Sakiri wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I prefer well moderated forums. I honestly can't recall ever intentionally breaking a rule in one, including here.

I think they should only invoke the TOS in significant cases without ambiguity. The TOS is a legal document intended to shield the service provider. Obviously almost no one reads them and it is impossible to argue against them as they are designed to cover all scenarios.

Most posts should be moderated according to a human readable code of conduct.

Permanent bans aren't necessary in most cases. This is especially true because of the long term relationship many players have with Zenimax. Through a 10 year period, any individual may experience a huge array of real life experiences that could affect how they communicate online. A player should be forgiven for making some mistakes while enduring harsh real life challenges. They probably just need a time out.

Furthermore, misunderstandings are normal in all human interactions, but especially in text. There is always an error rate. Therefore, one who posts more, will likely have a greater number of misunderstandings with the mods. There are banned accounts with 4000+ well-intentioned posts because of a handful of misunderstandings or mistakes over the course of several years.

So it's important that ZOS reviews the history of a forum user and asks themselves if they are truly a bad actor.

I think that in most cases ZOS should have escalating suspensions. Even ones that might last a year or more in the case of repeat offenders. Actually permanent bans should only be for significant cases.

Dude.

I caught a warning with reasons given that had absolutely nothing to do with the post I made.

The moderation here isn't great. People should be doing it, not Ai. Ai can't determine context, sarcasm or eleventy billion other nuances people can.

Insert forum rules and posts into GPT, and you'll be very surprised at how well it understands the context.

Sakiri

manukartofanu wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I prefer well moderated forums. I honestly can't recall ever intentionally breaking a rule in one, including here.

I think they should only invoke the TOS in significant cases without ambiguity. The TOS is a legal document intended to shield the service provider. Obviously almost no one reads them and it is impossible to argue against them as they are designed to cover all scenarios.

Most posts should be moderated according to a human readable code of conduct.

Permanent bans aren't necessary in most cases. This is especially true because of the long term relationship many players have with Zenimax. Through a 10 year period, any individual may experience a huge array of real life experiences that could affect how they communicate online. A player should be forgiven for making some mistakes while enduring harsh real life challenges. They probably just need a time out.

Furthermore, misunderstandings are normal in all human interactions, but especially in text. There is always an error rate. Therefore, one who posts more, will likely have a greater number of misunderstandings with the mods. There are banned accounts with 4000+ well-intentioned posts because of a handful of misunderstandings or mistakes over the course of several years.

So it's important that ZOS reviews the history of a forum user and asks themselves if they are truly a bad actor.

I think that in most cases ZOS should have escalating suspensions. Even ones that might last a year or more in the case of repeat offenders. Actually permanent bans should only be for significant cases.

Dude.

I caught a warning with reasons given that had absolutely nothing to do with the post I made.

The moderation here isn't great. People should be doing it, not Ai. Ai can't determine context, sarcasm or eleventy billion other nuances people can.

Insert forum rules and posts into GPT, and you'll be very surprised at how well it understands the context.

Talking about being ignored as a trial player has nothing to do with naming violations.

It couldn't have even made sense.

TaSheen

Aurielle wrote: »

Is there a way to send @ZOS_Kevin messages directly? I tried to PM him some screenshots of especially egregious over-moderation (one in which I received an official warning that basically accused me of terrible things that I wasn’t anywhere close to actually doing, one in which I received a friendly reminder not to “spam” because I responded to a tongue-in-cheek thread with a simple and harmless joke, which was removed from the thread), but his name doesn’t come up when I try to send a direct message.

I think you can't send screenshots through the pm system. Perhaps he will offer you another option to do so once he sees your ping in this thread.

spartaxoxo

Sakiri wrote: »

manukartofanu wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I prefer well moderated forums. I honestly can't recall ever intentionally breaking a rule in one, including here.

I think they should only invoke the TOS in significant cases without ambiguity. The TOS is a legal document intended to shield the service provider. Obviously almost no one reads them and it is impossible to argue against them as they are designed to cover all scenarios.

Most posts should be moderated according to a human readable code of conduct.

Permanent bans aren't necessary in most cases. This is especially true because of the long term relationship many players have with Zenimax. Through a 10 year period, any individual may experience a huge array of real life experiences that could affect how they communicate online. A player should be forgiven for making some mistakes while enduring harsh real life challenges. They probably just need a time out.

Furthermore, misunderstandings are normal in all human interactions, but especially in text. There is always an error rate. Therefore, one who posts more, will likely have a greater number of misunderstandings with the mods. There are banned accounts with 4000+ well-intentioned posts because of a handful of misunderstandings or mistakes over the course of several years.

So it's important that ZOS reviews the history of a forum user and asks themselves if they are truly a bad actor.

I think that in most cases ZOS should have escalating suspensions. Even ones that might last a year or more in the case of repeat offenders. Actually permanent bans should only be for significant cases.

Dude.

I caught a warning with reasons given that had absolutely nothing to do with the post I made.

The moderation here isn't great. People should be doing it, not Ai. Ai can't determine context, sarcasm or eleventy billion other nuances people can.

Insert forum rules and posts into GPT, and you'll be very surprised at how well it understands the context.

Talking about being ignored as a trial player has nothing to do with naming violations.

It couldn't have even made sense.

Do you mean naming and shaming? As in, the post named someone directly?

Or as in the username it was posted under was deemed to be against the rules. The latter can be flagged on any post because it's the name of the poster that violates the rules rather than the content.

manukartofanu

Sakiri wrote: »

manukartofanu wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I prefer well moderated forums. I honestly can't recall ever intentionally breaking a rule in one, including here.

I think they should only invoke the TOS in significant cases without ambiguity. The TOS is a legal document intended to shield the service provider. Obviously almost no one reads them and it is impossible to argue against them as they are designed to cover all scenarios.

Most posts should be moderated according to a human readable code of conduct.

Permanent bans aren't necessary in most cases. This is especially true because of the long term relationship many players have with Zenimax. Through a 10 year period, any individual may experience a huge array of real life experiences that could affect how they communicate online. A player should be forgiven for making some mistakes while enduring harsh real life challenges. They probably just need a time out.

Furthermore, misunderstandings are normal in all human interactions, but especially in text. There is always an error rate. Therefore, one who posts more, will likely have a greater number of misunderstandings with the mods. There are banned accounts with 4000+ well-intentioned posts because of a handful of misunderstandings or mistakes over the course of several years.

So it's important that ZOS reviews the history of a forum user and asks themselves if they are truly a bad actor.

I think that in most cases ZOS should have escalating suspensions. Even ones that might last a year or more in the case of repeat offenders. Actually permanent bans should only be for significant cases.

Dude.

I caught a warning with reasons given that had absolutely nothing to do with the post I made.

The moderation here isn't great. People should be doing it, not Ai. Ai can't determine context, sarcasm or eleventy billion other nuances people can.

Insert forum rules and posts into GPT, and you'll be very surprised at how well it understands the context.

Talking about being ignored as a trial player has nothing to do with naming violations.

It couldn't have even made sense.

So, you already put it into GPT, and it replies that you've violated that very rule with your post?

dk_dunkirk

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'd like to see the inconsistencies addressed.

Just days ago, a thread on this very topic had included a couple of replies from ZOS staff which indicated that in that particular instance, discussing frustrations with the modertion was acceptable since it was providing feedback. But then soon after, another forum moderator stepped in and shut it down for "Bashing" because they determined that that's what the criticism was, and cited that it was against the ToS for bashing ZOS itself.

We are always fine to keep conversations open as long as they don’t turn into targeting individuals, including team members. Everyone is fully capable of engaging in conversations like these without turning to singling people out. This thread conversation has been great about doing that. We also have that noted in community rules.

Bashing and Slanderous Comments: We do not permit the bashing of individuals (including ZeniMax employees), groups, or other companies on our forums. We believe that doing so is neither constructive nor in spirit of our game and community.

This is probably my biggest gripe with the moderation. If you infer that someone else on the forum is inconsistent in their reasoning about something, and point out the problem in their logic, you can get flagged for bashing. Yet time after time over the years, I've seen people absolutely rail against "the devs" for not caring about the game, being ignorant of how it works, or just plain sucking at their jobs. I hate this. As a decades-long full stack developer, I understand that time, money, and resources have to be allocated according to management's purview, and if things aren't being addressed like people want, it's management's fault, not the devs. I don't understand how people openly detracting the developers' abilities and attitudes is not a clear violation of the bashing rule. Is it not bashing because no names are involved? Is that the distinction?

Valion

Aurielle wrote: »

Is there a way to send @ZOS_Kevin messages directly? I tried to PM him some screenshots of especially egregious over-moderation (one in which I received an official warning that basically accused me of terrible things that I wasn’t anywhere close to actually doing, one in which I received a friendly reminder not to “spam” because I responded to a tongue-in-cheek thread with a simple and harmless joke, which was removed from the thread), but his name doesn’t come up when I try to send a direct message.

While I try to stay polite, I oftentimes lean towards very direct approaches in discussions. My cultural heritage shows - but it does not translate very well, as it seems. On a gobal forum, I cannot expect that, I admit.
Anyways, on one such occasion where I got another message deleted, the Mod was kind enough to provide me with the information that you can ask the Support to review the complaint.
In the end, that did not change anything, and I still don't really know what qualifies as a "conspiracy", but not at least, it showed me a way in which I can react.
I can hardly tolerate to be criticized without being given an opportunity to react formally, and that was realised.

So I want and need to learn. I felt invited to.

Besides, I wanted to say that I really love the niveau and openness of you fellow seras participating on this thread.
@ZOS_Kevin - your endeavour is very dear to me, as it shows respect, and it hints towards us being perceived.
I can connive those minor problems the game itself might have, and I even sustain to play a Stamblade in PVE.
But when it comes to disrespect in commuication or harsh treatment of customers,
I have a hard time not getting out of patience.
I am so glad this is obviously not the case after all!

Aurielle

TaSheen wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Is there a way to send @ZOS_Kevin messages directly? I tried to PM him some screenshots of especially egregious over-moderation (one in which I received an official warning that basically accused me of terrible things that I wasn’t anywhere close to actually doing, one in which I received a friendly reminder not to “spam” because I responded to a tongue-in-cheek thread with a simple and harmless joke, which was removed from the thread), but his name doesn’t come up when I try to send a direct message.

I think you can't send screenshots through the pm system. Perhaps he will offer you another option to do so once he sees your ping in this thread.

His name doesn’t even populate when I start typing it in to a new message (other ZOS staff’s names do). Could be a weird mobile thing — I’m at my in-laws for the holidays and am not accessing the forums on my normal browser.

ZOS_Kevin

Aurielle wrote: »

His name doesn’t even populate when I start typing it in to a new message (other ZOS staff’s names do). Could be a weird mobile thing — I’m at my in-laws for the holidays and am not accessing the forums on my normal browser.

That might be an odd mobile thing. I just sent you a DM to test. If that doesn’t work, then I can reach out to our forum provider on Monday to see if anyone is in to resolve.

Sakiri

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

manukartofanu wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I prefer well moderated forums. I honestly can't recall ever intentionally breaking a rule in one, including here.

I think they should only invoke the TOS in significant cases without ambiguity. The TOS is a legal document intended to shield the service provider. Obviously almost no one reads them and it is impossible to argue against them as they are designed to cover all scenarios.

Most posts should be moderated according to a human readable code of conduct.

Permanent bans aren't necessary in most cases. This is especially true because of the long term relationship many players have with Zenimax. Through a 10 year period, any individual may experience a huge array of real life experiences that could affect how they communicate online. A player should be forgiven for making some mistakes while enduring harsh real life challenges. They probably just need a time out.

Furthermore, misunderstandings are normal in all human interactions, but especially in text. There is always an error rate. Therefore, one who posts more, will likely have a greater number of misunderstandings with the mods. There are banned accounts with 4000+ well-intentioned posts because of a handful of misunderstandings or mistakes over the course of several years.

So it's important that ZOS reviews the history of a forum user and asks themselves if they are truly a bad actor.

I think that in most cases ZOS should have escalating suspensions. Even ones that might last a year or more in the case of repeat offenders. Actually permanent bans should only be for significant cases.

Dude.

I caught a warning with reasons given that had absolutely nothing to do with the post I made.

The moderation here isn't great. People should be doing it, not Ai. Ai can't determine context, sarcasm or eleventy billion other nuances people can.

Insert forum rules and posts into GPT, and you'll be very surprised at how well it understands the context.

Talking about being ignored as a trial player has nothing to do with naming violations.

It couldn't have even made sense.

Do you mean naming and shaming? As in, the post named someone directly?

Or as in the username it was posted under was deemed to be against the rules. The latter can be flagged on any post because it's the name of the poster that violates the rules rather than the content.

I think it was referring to MY user name. I wrote back confused but haven't heard back from anyone.

I've had this username in five games, countless forums, including the og Bethesda forums, since 2008. I've had it on this forums for ten years. Pretty sure if it were bad or I was impersonating someone, I'd have known by now or flagged to rename.

Think the other rule cited was a case of cultural differences perhaps, unsure. Whatever it was, it was weird as all get out and I still can't figure out why they said, have questions, reply, then neglected to answer said reply.

I'm non American and autistic so stuff gets lost in my brain.

Sakiri

manukartofanu wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

manukartofanu wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I prefer well moderated forums. I honestly can't recall ever intentionally breaking a rule in one, including here.

I think they should only invoke the TOS in significant cases without ambiguity. The TOS is a legal document intended to shield the service provider. Obviously almost no one reads them and it is impossible to argue against them as they are designed to cover all scenarios.

Most posts should be moderated according to a human readable code of conduct.

Permanent bans aren't necessary in most cases. This is especially true because of the long term relationship many players have with Zenimax. Through a 10 year period, any individual may experience a huge array of real life experiences that could affect how they communicate online. A player should be forgiven for making some mistakes while enduring harsh real life challenges. They probably just need a time out.

Furthermore, misunderstandings are normal in all human interactions, but especially in text. There is always an error rate. Therefore, one who posts more, will likely have a greater number of misunderstandings with the mods. There are banned accounts with 4000+ well-intentioned posts because of a handful of misunderstandings or mistakes over the course of several years.

So it's important that ZOS reviews the history of a forum user and asks themselves if they are truly a bad actor.

I think that in most cases ZOS should have escalating suspensions. Even ones that might last a year or more in the case of repeat offenders. Actually permanent bans should only be for significant cases.

Dude.

I caught a warning with reasons given that had absolutely nothing to do with the post I made.

The moderation here isn't great. People should be doing it, not Ai. Ai can't determine context, sarcasm or eleventy billion other nuances people can.

Insert forum rules and posts into GPT, and you'll be very surprised at how well it understands the context.

Talking about being ignored as a trial player has nothing to do with naming violations.

It couldn't have even made sense.

So, you already put it into GPT, and it replies that you've violated that very rule with your post?

Now why would I bother with chatgpt?

They're not zos. I don't really care what it says.

Aurielle

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

His name doesn’t even populate when I start typing it in to a new message (other ZOS staff’s names do). Could be a weird mobile thing — I’m at my in-laws for the holidays and am not accessing the forums on my normal browser.

That might be an odd mobile thing. I just sent you a DM to test. If that doesn’t work, then I can reach out to our forum provider on Monday to see if anyone is in to resolve.

Thanks Kevin, that worked!

Sakiri

Valion wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Is there a way to send @ZOS_Kevin messages directly? I tried to PM him some screenshots of especially egregious over-moderation (one in which I received an official warning that basically accused me of terrible things that I wasn’t anywhere close to actually doing, one in which I received a friendly reminder not to “spam” because I responded to a tongue-in-cheek thread with a simple and harmless joke, which was removed from the thread), but his name doesn’t come up when I try to send a direct message.

While I try to stay polite, I oftentimes lean towards very direct approaches in discussions. My cultural heritage shows - but it does not translate very well, as it seems. On a gobal forum, I cannot expect that, I admit.
Anyways, on one such occasion where I got another message deleted, the Mod was kind enough to provide me with the information that you can ask the Support to review the complaint.
In the end, that did not change anything, and I still don't really know what qualifies as a "conspiracy", but not at least, it showed me a way in which I can react.
I can hardly tolerate to be criticized without being given an opportunity to react formally, and that was realised.

So I want and need to learn. I felt invited to.

Besides, I wanted to say that I really love the niveau and openness of you fellow seras participating on this thread.
@ZOS_Kevin - your endeavour is very dear to me, as it shows respect, and it hints towards us being perceived.
I can connive those minor problems the game itself might have, and I even sustain to play a Stamblade in PVE.
But when it comes to disrespect in commuication or harsh treatment of customers,
I have a hard time not getting out of patience.
I am so glad this is obviously not the case after all!

Yeah not sure what their conspiracy stuff is about tbh.

LPapirius

This is the only forum I've ever participated on where the mods don't help with any kind of technical assistance regarding the game and associated issues. It would go a heck of a long way to improving good will if the moderators of the forum actually provided some technical support on occasion. That way they are helping people, not just issuing warnings and bans. People are a lot more tolerant and respectful of those that help them, not just berate them.

And the point system for warnings and bans absolutely needs to be revamped. As others have pointed out, these points should count against us for a limited period of time. They should drop off the account after six months or a year. That way the overzealous warnings and bans due to legitimate misunderstandings or when action has been taken over something extremely minor and subjective won't count against the poster forever.

LPapirius

katanagirl1 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'd like to see the inconsistencies addressed.

Just days ago, a thread on this very topic had included a couple of replies from ZOS staff which indicated that in that particular instance, discussing frustrations with the modertion was acceptable since it was providing feedback. But then soon after, another forum moderator stepped in and shut it down for "Bashing" because they determined that that's what the criticism was, and cited that it was against the ToS for bashing ZOS itself.

Yes, I don’t know what happened in that thread. Kevin was answering posts about the topic and then it got closed. I think every single thread about this topic has eventually been locked. That does not bode well.

It was ironic that the last thread on this topic was closed in a fashion that proved the point that posts that are respectful and constructive yet critical at the same time get closed for reasons that don't reflect on the actual posts. Thus revealing the core of the problem we're talking about here.

Varana

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Human nature being what it is, those who sometimes find themselves in a position where they're hit by moderation will consider the moderation oppressive, while those who never find themselves in that position will consider it spot on.

Personally, I'd like as a standard provision for people always to be notified when their post has been moderated including deletion, and I'm also sympathetic to the argument recently made in another thread that forum disciplinary points should expire after a set period otherwise an errant poster can never learn and start over with a clean slate.

There is a lot of nuance to a slate being wiped clean. Not saying we can't adopt something like that in the long-term. But that conversation will need to take a backseat while we get the conversations around moderation underway.

I think that conversation needs to be forefront. One of the biggest reasons that moderation feels so oppressive IS the points expiration.

I can't speak for others, but for myself one of the reasons that the current direction is so stressful is because points never expire.

Let's create a pretend poster for example.

They have 10,000 posts. They have posted in this forum for 7 years. The community generally thinks of that poster as positive member of the community. They have written guides, tried to be respectful, and are usually informative in their posts.

One time during the pandemic that poster got mad and told someone off they shouldn't have.

Another time, 7 years ago, before they understood back and forth, they didn't actually say anything all that bad but they posted one too many times for someone's liking and ended up banned.

They have not posted anything else bad since then.

This poster would today be in danger of a permanent ban on their next account action. Despite showing 4 years of perfect behavior and 7 years of an overall positive post history across thousands of posts.

Why? Because they messed up twice, points don't expire, and three strikes and you're out.

This profile is not a real person and is possibly slightly exaggerated. But, not by much. That's the lived reality of a lot of posters and it is a major contributing factor in why mods getting it wrong feels so incredibly oppressive.

You could end up permanently banned in 3 years because of a mistake a mod made today.

Just wanted to follow up on this real quick. The reason I noted that it needs to be addressed long term is because there is far more work and systems that need to be discussed when addressing a system like that. That involves a whole set of teams that are independent from me and have their own thoughts on how that process goes, in addition to legalities. Moderation retooling is something that can actively be addressed between myself and far less people.

Also, the system currently set up is not that strict. I think the example given is a far extreme of what happens now. We account for time and nuance when moderation happens. Again, agree that we should discuss the system, but trying to get what can be addressed now handled first.

Agreeing with spartaxoxo and others that this is not an extreme or far-fetched example. And these forums and many posters have been around for more than a decade now. If you run across the arbitrary and vague moderation here twice while posting regularly for a decade, that's actually quite ... decent?

Taking "time and nuance" into account only goes so far. And again - what does that even mean? You never know. It's all so very murky and subjective.

So I also agree with spartaxoxo that this needs addressing. Other points are important as well, but this is a primary issue.

Nice holidays.

Desiato

Sakiri wrote: »

Dude.

I caught a warning with reasons given that had absolutely nothing to do with the post I made.

The moderation here isn't great. People should be doing it, not Ai. Ai can't determine context, sarcasm or eleventy billion other nuances people can.

I didn't say I consider the ESO forums to be well-moderated. I'm not saying they're not either because that could be misconstrued as bashing. Not that the mods misconstrue anything!!! I'm definitely not saying that!!!!

Believe me, I have as much to complain about as anyone. You would not believe my experiences! Which of course I can't talk about. (have I said too much?)

But actually, I don't care that much about warnings and suspensions. Nothing is perfect and we have to be willing to accept some flaws. But it's a two way street, so ZOS should lay off the permanent ban hammer.

SilverBride

Has anyone ever successfully had moderation overturned after appealing and explaining?

[Edited]

Tandor

manukartofanu wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Human nature being what it is, those who sometimes find themselves in a position where they're hit by moderation will consider the moderation oppressive, while those who never find themselves in that position will consider it spot on.

Personally, I'd like as a standard provision for people always to be notified when their post has been moderated including deletion, and I'm also sympathetic to the argument recently made in another thread that forum disciplinary points should expire after a set period otherwise an errant poster can never learn and start over with a clean slate.

Unfortunately, you're completely safe here only if you don't post anything at all. Or, if you always praise absolutely everything in the game and the staff whenever possible. From what I can see, you can even provoke others into breaking the rules or openly troll them. As long as no ZOS employee is affected, you can get away with it.

That's really not the case. I have posted numerous times in terms very critical of e.g. the guild trading system and the switch to account-wide achievements, and believe me when I say that my comments were not praising ! They never attracted warnings or penalties because I kept them constructive and polite. That's the principal key to avoiding moderation.

Desiato

SilverBride wrote: »

Has anyone ever successfully had moderation overturned after appealing and explaining?

I think if someone did, they wouldn't want to say so here because such a response could warrant mod attention. DM me if you want a better answer.

SteveCampsOut

Aurielle wrote: »

Is there a way to send @ZOS_Kevin messages directly? I tried to PM him some screenshots of especially egregious over-moderation (one in which I received an official warning that basically accused me of terrible things that I wasn’t anywhere close to actually doing, one in which I received a friendly reminder not to “spam” because I responded to a tongue-in-cheek thread with a simple and harmless joke, which was removed from the thread), but his name doesn’t come up when I try to send a direct message.

Just click on his name in your own message and it brings up his profile. Click the message button there and you can PM him from his profile and attach images to your message. It uses the same message editor as these forums and you click the image icon on the editor bar and upload your screen shots just like posting here.