Forum Moderation PSA

freespirit

I'll have been here 11yrs beginning of January, I have never received even a warning!

I have argued with people and occasionally been sarcastic HOWEVER I have seen many people who seem to be just after an argument!!

The other thing that does appear, to me at least, to happen a fair amount, is things get lost in translation.

I think everyone mods included, should always consider whether a poster may not be a native English user and if maybe the offending post just didn't translate that well.

SteveCampsOut

Desiato wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Has anyone ever successfully had moderation overturned after appealing and explaining?

Without getting into the details, I appealed a moderation, asked what I should do different in the future if met with a similar situation again, and the customer service's solution was to do the very exact thing that I had been moderated for! And they did not remove the warning.

I think if someone did, they wouldn't want to say so here because such a response could warrant mod attention. DM me if you want a better answer.

I appealed one of mine. Their response was the same as the warning. Go read the TOS. They couldn't or wouldn't tell me how my message could be considered baiting. It left me not feeling safe here when an appeal had that result.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

Has anyone ever successfully had moderation overturned after appealing and explaining?

Edited to fix quote

Yes. There have been times when bans were successfully appealed. I cannot go into detail here for obvious reasons. I'm just stating that there exists bans that have been successfully appealed by unnamed people at unnamed points in time for unnamed reasons. This is a thing that customer service has done at some point in time.

Valion

Tandor wrote: »

They never attracted warnings or penalties because I kept them constructive and polite. That's the principal key to avoiding moderation.

I am sorry, but I disagree. I believe you that this is in fact your experience, but I have witnessed different.
As others have, too.
There is in fact a certain degree of unfortunate decisions, and maybe if that even reflects the typical 6% "human error factor", it needs to be adressed.
Mind you, a more communicative moderation system could not just prevent unease, but also consolidate our identification with - well - the forums. And in such, the game.

Desiato

ESO is different things to different people. To some, it's just a light pastime full of lols that they don't think too hard about.

Others might be gaming enthusiasts who are as passionate about their hobby as someone else might be about any hobby.

You might think I'm talking about hardcore trial or pvp players, but I'm not. For every major activity in ESO, there is a passionate community that cares deeply about it.

On top of that, ESO is a social outlet for countless people in an increasingly isolating world.

So this necessarily means that issues that relate to ESO affect us disproportionately. When ESO is offline, that's no problem for some. Most players probably don't even notice. For others, ESO is where they hang out with their friends, so it's extremely stressful.

This applies to all aspects of the game. When ESO still had a large PVP community, they were generally surly and didn't have a great relationship with ZOS because of all the major issues affecting PVP. Of course this makes it more likely for one to get frustrated and lose their composure. They were right to be upset because ZOS failed to deliver on their promises. Mods, that's not bashing. That is my honest view about what happened.

On top of that, language is fluid. These forums are not representative of the larger ESO community as I know it. To truly experience it, one must read trade guild chats, discussion in Discord communities, and watch twitch. Many gamers today speak a different language than that what we use to discuss topics here. They use terms that could be easily misunderstood by someone not familiar with them. I would argue it is a legitimate dialect and linguists would probably agree because how people use words dictates the rules, not the other way around.

My point is, we need leeway to have frank, passionate discussions about the game. If things get heated, I expect mods to intervene, but in most cases this shouldn't result in a permanent mark against the player.

We also need to be more flexible about the terms that are used. Why? Because it's possible for policies designed for inclusion to result in greater exclusion. The ESO community should be broadly reflected in the forums.

I would say as much of half of the ESO community is excluded from the forums because of how they casually communicate -- which has become normal in most of society.

AtriaKhorist

SilverBride wrote: »

Has anyone ever successfully had moderation overturned after appealing and explaining?

All such conversations, tickets or requests I have been privy to, from several friends, either saw no response at all or standardized responses that were at best unhelpful.

No overturning. Zero. Not even a proper explanation.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

After removing a few off topic posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.

LadyGP

AtriaKhorist wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Has anyone ever successfully had moderation overturned after appealing and explaining?

Without getting into the details, I appealed a moderation, asked what I should do different in the future if met with a similar situation again, and the customer service's solution was to do the very exact thing that I had been moderated for! And they did not remove the warning.

All such conversations, tickets or requests I have been privy to, from several friends, either saw no response at all or standardized responses that were at best unhelpful.

No overturning. Zero. Not even a proper explanation.

My partner got their account banned after being on here since 2013 sometime. They only have a few strikes on the account and over a.. 10+ year period of being active on the forums.. it's super easy to get some strikes when you're giving feedback and constructive criticism over the 10 years (especially given the current state).

Now, one of them was 100% warranted for being a bit too blunt in my opinion (not disrespectful but rode the line if that makes sense).

The warning that got them perma banned was for the usual baiting claim, which was them simply responding to someone who actively trolls/baits them in game and on the forums (responded to them explaining why something happens and was sarcastic about it). Request to review put in and was denied. Second request a few months later were put in with context of what was going on and also denied.

SilverBride

LadyGP wrote: »

My partner got their account banned after being on here since 2013 sometime. They only have a few strikes on the account and over a.. 10+ year period of being active on the forums.

That is a perfect example of how extreme and heavy handed the moderation is. A poster can have 15000 posts over the 10 year life of these forums that fall completely within the posting guidelines. But one handful of posts where the poster either slipped up (we are all human so it's going to happen) or were completely misinterpreted can earn them a permanent ban. And these few infractions follow us forever.

This really needs to change.

Lags

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Again.. and again.. and again..
This is NOT the safe space you are looking for! This is not a happy place with fluffy unicorns. This is a gaming forum, where people are discussing, reporting and expressing their views on the PRODUCT they bought with their earned money. Sometimes controversial and confrontational. Deal with it.

Going to clarify slightly here. This should be a safe space for people to discuss, report and express their views. Absolutely. And there will be times where that discussion can be controversial and disagreements can (and should) happen. Those disagreements can happen without name calling or trying to ridicule another poster. That also makes people unwelcome to have conversations here. Confrontational does not need to be part of that equation. Conformational implies hostility, and that is not appropriate most cases here.

Again, we are going to chat with some of you in a one on one capacity to get feedback on how we can get to a better middle ground here, and have conversations with our mod team. That way, more open and honest conversations can happen, but folks still feel like their voice can be heard without fear of someone getting hostile toward them.

Also wanted to note that we hear the feedback on having more clearly defined rules, so we will work on that as well.

id love to have a chat with you about the list of things ive been actioned for on the forums. Every single one was ridiculous and childish. Every single one was a rule open to interpretation that i would never imagined would be used against me. Many of the times it felt like it was to simply silence me for being critical of zenimax.

Even today my thread was removed. Thats another issue. I understand closing down discussions because of the same topics but just because the topic is similar does not mean its the same, especially when someone is asking questions directly to zenimax and the other discussion is just a list of previous threads from zos, with no other dialogue. I messaged the mod about it @ZOS_Icy but i haven't gotten a response. It was just today so ill give it time but i probably wont get one at all.

Regardless of that, it may be too little too late with a lot of people. And that may be a theme with zos. Its well known in this community that on the forums especially, but even in game, zenimax is verrrrry heavy handed when it comes to actioning peoples accounts for absolutely silly reasons. You guys should be able to do things on a case by case basis, and tell bad actors apart from players just making small mistakes. It really makes me wonder why zos is so quick to perma ban someone who has a silly character name, for example.

On one hand you have people typing slurs, name calling, threatening people, and acting like animals. No one wants that. But on the other hand you have what has been going on for years, the exact opposite. Where the most benign things will get you actioned. Really hope you guys are serious about looking into it.

One other thing is the appeal process. it feels like when you appeal something it doesnt matter. Who is it going to? Is it the same person who gave me the ban? They dont ask for anything, you just send your appeal and 99.99% of the time they say "we reviewed it and the decision is the same".

SilverBride

Lags wrote: »

One other thing is the appeal process. it feels like when you appeal something it doesnt matter. Who is it going to? Is it the same person who gave me the ban? They dont ask for anything, you just send your appeal and 99.99% of the time they say "we reviewed it and the decision is the same".

That is something I was wondering, too. Who is reading our appeals and making these decisions?

Lags

SilverBride wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

My partner got their account banned after being on here since 2013 sometime. They only have a few strikes on the account and over a.. 10+ year period of being active on the forums.

That is a perfect example of how extreme and heavy handed the moderation is. A poster can have 15000 posts over the 10 year life of these forums that fall completely within the posting guidelines. But one handful of posts where the poster either slipped up (we are all human so it's going to happen) or were completely misinterpreted can earn them a permanent ban. And these few infractions follow us forever.

This really needs to change.

their 3 strike rule is absolutely insane. Both in game and on the forums. Imagine in 2015 you got a chat ban for swearing. Then in 2018 you got a 3 day ban for tbagging someone. Then in 2021 you get a perma ban because your @ name is corona man. Or something stupid, maybe its named after an in game NPC (which is apparently against the rules, and yes they ban for it).

So you're telling me its fair to perma ban someone for strikes over the course of years? Like i said in my above post, they should be able to tell average players who make small mistakes apart from malicious bad actors who repeatedly break the same rules.

It honestly feels like zos enjoys banning people. It feels like they think they are purging their community. Im sure they would say no, but to many of us it feels that way. To ban people for tiny, benign, infractions, and to make it permanent after a couple times, is insane. We put thousands of hours into this game and the forums. it would be awful to lose it over something stupid.

And i used in game as an example but the same things happen on the forums, as you said, its just more often and for more silly things. Their 3 strike rule is just insane. This isnt baseball. And tbh, im pretty sure i know when they changed this too. It was back with the whole cheat engine scandal, when they banned people and then unbanned some on appeal and people were up in arms. So after that they got waaay more heavy handed with bans in game and on the forums.

Arunei

I've had a few warnings and one 72 hour forum ban in the years I've been posting. A few times I've had comments removed from a thread and been told.

A lot of other times I find comments gone entirely with absolutely NO indication of why. No messages telling me what I did wrong, no edits saying the post was removed for X or Y.

And that's one of the big issues with the moderation here. How are we supposed to know what we did wrong when we have posts just go missing with no feedback as to what caused it? How are we supposed to know what rules may have legitimately been broken when there's no communication? When posts just disappear for quite literally no reason, it fosters a sense of "what if I mess up again and don't know I did and that's my third strike".

And there's that too. That it feels like posts that vanish without any reason given as to why are removed for...well, no reason.

It makes perfect sense for people to be worried about posting and whether anything they DO post will land them in trouble or not, when we have posts go missing with absolutely no context as to why. We can't even contact the mod responsible if we aren't messaged about it to try and figure out what the problem was.

Sleepsin

I wonder which company has been hired for forum moderation. Which leads me to the next question, did that company outsource parts of forum moderation to a 3rd party contractor?

shadyjane62

I had a post removed and got a warning during the 24 hour outage. I felt it was unwarranted but I know better than to try and do anything about it.

It just reminded me never to to say anything about my true feelings.

MJallday

Can we not just have 24 hours where we can say and do what we want? Like the purge?

Get it all out of our system

I_killed_Vivec

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

After removing a few off topic posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.

Just had two 72 hour bans in the last two weeks, one for a satirical post on what might be in the letter - done for bashing and slander, though I never mentioned anyone by name, and it was clearly (intended to be) a gentle, humorous post; the second for commenting on the letter, in particular comparing the timing of the Gold Road reveal (early January) with the "wait until April" comment and the cancelling of the US meet and greet. This was done for Conspiracy

Clearly these two posts had touched a nerve, otherwise why go over the top and put in a ban? But why not just remove the posts? You can remove uncivil and unconstructive comments, but you have to go further and ban me too? What was achieved by a 72 hour ban? Are you trying to teach me a lesson, make me a better man? Because it feels like you're trying to push me away.

Both were comments on something that is incredibly important to us (well, me): the very future of the game.

Without wanting to sound too dramatic, for me this game has been an involvement of over ten years and thousands of pounds. I started playing in beta, I've been playing continuously to this day. In fact I started with Morrowind, played through Oblivion and Skyrim to ESO today... pretty much to the complete exclusion of other games.

It is not conspiracy to wonder what is going on. And it won't stop people wondering by giving them a ban, even if they put two and two together to make five. Were my thoughts so dangerous? Because to me the danger is in turning up at the eleventh hour, slamming on the breaks and saying "You know that cadence of chapters where we'd do a big reveal in a couple of weeks? We've binned that. We'll tell you what you can expect in April".

Transparency is the key to fighting conspiracy. Tell us and we wouldn't have to make it up for ourselves.

In any case, because of the bans I've cancelled my ESO+ subscription (don't worry, it was painless, I have 160 days left ). You've finally managed to push me away

AtriaKhorist

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

After removing a few off topic posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.

Considering the topic - this is not helpful, Icy.

Northwold

I mentioned in another thread that days into joining these forums (it might even have been my first day, come to think of it!) I got a warning that to this day I plain do not understand.

I asked a straight question of whether something happens in game that I wasn't sure really happened but had heard of. Nothing saucy or anything like that. And got done for baiting. I appealed and the warning was upheld. I have literally no idea what that was about, except that I am absolutely clear it was not baiting but a straight factual enquiry, and that, as far as I can see, the only way it could be construed as baiting would be if the issue had come up historically and something had happened (how on earth would a new user know that?). That is the only warning I have ever received but it was a terrible introduction to the forums.

But one other thing that I find really, really problematic in the forum approach to moderation is that you can say something, and someone will shoot back at you with arguments that are simply untrue / wrong / whatever. But there's no point replying because whatever you say, no matter how logical or correct, risks ending up deleted as "unnecessary back and forth". The end result is often that the quality of discussion falls off a cliff because questionable narratives end up looking like the last word.

I have even seen an instance where a poster deliberately introduced inflammatory language into a thread that previously did not have any, and then tried to get the thread shut down when their own language was quoted back at them for "inflammatory language"! The big surprise was that, in this instance, they didn't get what they wanted.

We cannot hold discussions this way. It is arbitrary, it is weird, it impedes discussion and results in certain voices being able to shut down debate.

One final point is that there is, as others have said, a language issue at play in that many of the moderators do not seem to be familiar with idioms used outside the US or non-American phraseology and nuance. And that's fine. But a little bit of awareness of, say, the prevalence of irony in British English, or the relative directness of many Dutch people, would go a long way.

Sometimes I feel I need to modify my language by imagining I'm in a primary school out on the Kansas prairie or something. I am generally careful by instinct in how I address people online. But I have NEVER felt the need quite so oppressively to watch my words in any other online forum I have used.

PS I actually *like* that the forum is moderated as much as it is. Because the toxicity you see in many gaming outlets is absent. That takes a lot of work and it is very visible. There have been some really impressive examples of moderators going well beyond what you would normally see eg to work through a whole thread on LGBT issues to purge it of some truly disgusting hate speech while making sure the thread survived and remained usable. But there is a balance and oftentimes it does feel that moderation is too easily triggered and not necessarily for the right things.

wilykcat

In my opinion, I don't think moderation has to have major changes but small changes are ok. Its common sense when a person breaks the rules than he/she deserves a penalty based on the severity. It's ok to talk to a moderator about it as they are very helpful and knowledgeable. I've had very good experiences communicating with the moderators here and I'm very grateful for their kindness.

On the otherhand I understand the struggle of getting punished and how upsetting that is as it previously happened to me on the Guild Wars 2 forums.

It's also better to have a clear explanation of why things happen and come up with a compromise so we can better understand inorder to not make the same mistakes in the future and to forgive. 😊

DenverRalphy

AtriaKhorist wrote: »

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

After removing a few off topic posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.

Considering the topic - this is not helpful, Icy.

Considering that the comments removed for being wildly off topic were exactly that (as well a back and forth bicker), I think it was completely justified.

If we want to keep this thread alive, we can't allow a couple/few bad apples ruin the bunch.

AtriaKhorist

DenverRalphy wrote: »

AtriaKhorist wrote: »

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

After removing a few off topic posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.

Considering the topic - this is not helpful, Icy.

Considering that the comments removed for being wildly off topic were exactly that (as well a back and forth bicker), I think it was completely justified.

If we want to keep this thread alive, we can't allow a couple/few bad apples ruin the bunch.

We will have to disagree on this.

Arunei

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Transparency is the key to fighting conspiracy. Tell us and we wouldn't have to make it up for ourselves.

Exactly this, and I've said as much in the Overland Difficulty thing after the end of the year letter was released and it mentioned increasing Overland difficulty but didn't clarify if it would be a blanket forced increased or an opt-in thing:

Arunei wrote: »

Personally I won't be affected, I'm just asking for the people who are going to be dreading the next few months. Making people wait several months for certain answers is what leads to conspiracy stuff and other things rules for the forums have needed to be made for. It leads to worry and bitterness and resentment, even if those feelings turn out to be for nothing. Sometimes you HAVE to give people more info.

Giving people more info applies to moderation as well. When posts are removed or sniped without any explanation as to why, when there's no communication and thus no exchange of information between parties involved, it leads to that same worry, bitterness and resentment. It leads to people wondering what was wrong and reaching their own conclusions, because what else can you do when you aren't told one way or another?

SilverBride

wilykcat wrote: »

It's ok to talk to a moderator about it as they are very helpful and knowledgeable.

I approached a moderator once asking for help with something. I'm afraid to say anything more.

DenverRalphy

AtriaKhorist wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

AtriaKhorist wrote: »

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

After removing a few off topic posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.

Considering the topic - this is not helpful, Icy.

Considering that the comments removed for being wildly off topic were exactly that (as well a back and forth bicker), I think it was completely justified.

If we want to keep this thread alive, we can't allow a couple/few bad apples ruin the bunch.

We will have to disagree on this.

That's fine, you don't have to agree. But I saw the posts in question that were removed, so I know exactly why they were off topic and turning into a back-n-forth.

Which is why I clickied the Flag button on them to alert the moderation team. And apparently they agreed. So fitting with the topic of this thread, I'd say it was an example of moderation done right.

SilverBride

Moderating infractions with a clear explanation is a good thing. It will keep the forums civil so good discussions can take place. It's how they are dealt with that is the problem.

Bans should be a rare occurrence but they are handed out for the slightest reasons. And permanent bans should be extremely rare, and in my opinion they should have to be reviewed by @ZOS_Kevin or another admin before being issued.

Moderation should be a learning experience, but instead posters are being banned frequently without any clear explanation of what they did wrong. Just quoting the forum guidelines does not tell the poster what they specifically said that was wrong, or what they can do differently in the future to avoid more problems.

SaffronCitrusflower

LPapirius wrote: »

This is the only forum I've ever participated on where the mods don't help with any kind of technical assistance regarding the game and associated issues. It would go a heck of a long way to improving good will if the moderators of the forum actually provided some technical support on occasion. That way they are helping people, not just issuing warnings and bans. People are a lot more tolerant and respectful of those that help them, not just berate them.

And the point system for warnings and bans absolutely needs to be revamped. As others have pointed out, these points should count against us for a limited period of time. They should drop off the account after six months or a year. That way the overzealous warnings and bans due to legitimate misunderstandings or when action has been taken over something extremely minor and subjective won't count against the poster forever.

Agree and agree.

When I moderated a forum we were expected to provide technical support. In fact, it was our ability to provide technical support that was the main qualification for being a moderator.

And the point system is just, well, very demeaning and is treating adults like children. I forgot what the psychological term is, but people tend to live up to the expectations others set for them. If treated like children, people will act like children.

ThePlayer

Even i spoke well of ESO and its future dynamics, but said that "probably" Bethesda was also thinking of other games, they called me back saying that i was conspiring

Ok now i can't write exactly what i written in this past post, but it seems a bit of an exaggeration to me, even if there are rules in the forum, freedom of thought must be maintained, otherwise changing the moderator would be the case.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

LadyGP wrote: »

If there is already a thread about this that I missed... feel free to close. Just wanted to put this out there as it's kind of buried in the lag thread and I know people are very concerned about this topic.

There was a thread, to which many posted good comments about their worries and experiences with the moderation on the forum after Kevin had said that and about getting feedback, but it was suddenly closed some time later without any further word for pointless back and forth. Which to me has added further to the negative opinion and makes their words feel empty and hollow. Also know that some people who posted in that thread, very politely, got warnings. I'm worried I'm getting a warning for just saying this!

@ZOS_Kevin I hope you can see how this greatly impact people and makes us very doubtful, when you talk about discussing things or taking feedback, only for us to be met with silence or have one of the other moderators come back and close a thread with people who posted perfectly polite constructive critism and feedback, then give some of those people warnings/bans.

Pixiepumpkin

SilverBride wrote: »

Has anyone ever successfully had moderation overturned after appealing and explaining?

[Edited]

Not for me.

Years ago, I said something on a ESO twitch stream referencing sometime Gina was doing. I forget exactly what I said, but it was somethine like "Nice, fits" talking about a merch shirt or sweater or jacket, I dont remember. However, I fat fingered the "F" and hit "T" instead, I quickly saw what it spelled out and changed it, I was perma banned in about 10 seconds, no appeal allowed me to communicate anymore on that stream.

It was a legitimate, honest mistake, I tried explaining that but they gave no ear to listen and to this day I can not communicate with them on twitch. Their lack of any appeal has caused me to pause countless times when I have gone to buy crowns or sub again...in fact, I have not even purchased the current chapter and my time in game gets less and less.

Nothing I said could be read as abuse, not when considering my history and time spent in those streams for years. it cost them a lot of money, and based on how much I spent yearly, it cost them thousands.