Forum Moderation PSA

LadyGP

This comment was dropped in the lag thread and wanted to pass it along as I know it's been a very hot topic as of late.



Sounds like feedback has been heard and they are going to find a better balance.

LadyGP

If there is already a thread about this that I missed... feel free to close. Just wanted to put this out there as it's kind of buried in the lag thread and I know people are very concerned about this topic.

Desiato

Spiderman memes are gonna make a comeback, I can feel it.....

LuC1ll3atTh3Wh33L

Desiato wrote: »

Spiderman memes are gonna make a comeback, I can feel it.....

LadyGP

Desiato wrote: »

Spiderman memes are gonna make a comeback, I can feel it.....

I love your sig btw.

dk_dunkirk

wilykcat wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin
I think the moderators are doing a great job. Even know the moderation here is strict it helps keep the forums a civil safe environment, and the moderators are very nice and respectful too.

I fear if moderation changes or ends up being less then the forums might end up becoming disorganized and toxic like social media. Please don't change moderation.

And just like every other opinion posted on the forums, people come in on the first page and say, no, everything is perfect, don't change anything. Ever. For any reason. Like, there's literally no wiggle room on the issue, and the OP had absolutely nothing of value to add to the conversation.

Does it sound like I'm bitter? It's only because I am. I've had this kind of instant response to suggestions many times.

To the moderation, I would cite a case where I've been completely blindsided by an action, but we can't talk about that.

And I'll bet this response is just a bit too direct, and falls afoul of some other rule. I'm just going to have to chance it. But therein lies part of the problem. The rules are pretty subjective, and can be bent to a moderators opinion and interpretation.

LadyGP

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin
I think the moderators are doing a great job. Even know the moderation here is strict it helps keep the forums a civil safe environment, and the moderators are very nice and respectful too.

I fear if moderation changes or ends up being less then the forums might end up becoming disorganized and toxic like social media. Please don't change moderation.

And just like every other opinion posted on the forums, people come in on the first page and say, no, everything is perfect, don't change anything. Ever. For any reason. Like, there's literally no wiggle room on the issue, and the OP had absolutely nothing of value to add to the conversation.

Does it sound like I'm bitter? It's only because I am. I've had this kind of instant response to suggestions many times.

To the moderation, I would cite a case where I've been completely blindsided by an action, but we can't talk about that.

And I'll bet this response is just a bit too direct, and falls afoul of some other rule. I'm just going to have to chance it. But therein lies part of the problem. The rules are pretty subjective, and can be bent to a moderators opinion and interpretation.

For what it is worth I left my opinion in the Community Coms thread and some in the Lag thread this was posted in. I've said on more than one occasion I am very careful with what I say now because of my warnings and not wanting to be banned. I've made my opinion pretty clear.

Also - I think the fact that I cant say exactly what I want and have edited this post already 3 times should say what where my views lie.

sarahthes

wilykcat wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin
I think the moderators are doing a great job. Even know the moderation here is strict it helps keep the forums a civil safe environment, and the moderators are very nice and respectful too.

I fear if moderation changes or ends up being less then the forums might end up becoming disorganized and toxic like social media. Please don't change moderation.

While sometimes the moderation is ok, sometimes it can be overly strict or harsh, and it also doesn't always seem to be the same depending on which moderator is acting. Clearly defined rules/guidelines for the moderators on how to interpret the ToS (especially in borderline areas) so that the moderation is the same no matter who is needed would be welcome. It would also be helpful if there were more in depth responses when people question moderation actions, because transparency and accountability only serve to improve the reputation of the moderators and the forums.

I'm hesitant to say more on the topic, tbh.

gariondavey

wilykcat wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin
I think the moderators are doing a great job. Even know the moderation here is strict it helps keep the forums a civil safe environment, and the moderators are very nice and respectful too.

I fear if moderation changes or ends up being less then the forums might end up becoming disorganized and toxic like social media. Please don't change moderation.

Like almost every take I've seen from you on the forums, you are saying the opposite of the majority who have legitimate complaints.

The moderation on these forums is excessive and certain moderators can be vindictive.

Desiato

I prefer well moderated forums. I honestly can't recall ever intentionally breaking a rule in one, including here.

I think they should only invoke the TOS in significant cases without ambiguity. The TOS is a legal document intended to shield the service provider. Obviously almost no one reads them and it is impossible to argue against them as they are designed to cover all scenarios.

Most posts should be moderated according to a human readable code of conduct.

Permanent bans aren't necessary in most cases. This is especially true because of the long term relationship many players have with Zenimax. Through a 10 year period, any individual may experience a huge array of real life experiences that could affect how they communicate online. A player should be forgiven for making some mistakes while enduring harsh real life challenges. They probably just need a time out.

Furthermore, misunderstandings are normal in all human interactions, but especially in text. There is always an error rate. Therefore, one who posts more, will likely have a greater number of misunderstandings with the mods. There are banned accounts with 4000+ well-intentioned posts because of a handful of misunderstandings or mistakes over the course of several years.

So it's important that ZOS reviews the history of a forum user and asks themselves if they are truly a bad actor.

I think that in most cases ZOS should have escalating suspensions. Even ones that might last a year or more in the case of repeat offenders. Actually permanent bans should only be for significant cases.

moderatelyfatman

I did get a warning for making a joke about censorship.
Another time I made an obvious parody and got into trouble for that.

I completely understand the need to protect other people from abuse and threats. However, making jokes about the game itself or the general state of performance is essentially a victimless crime when it is not targetting anyone.

thorwyn

wilykcat wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin
I think the moderators are doing a great job. Even know the moderation here is strict it helps keep the forums a civil safe environment, and the moderators are very nice and respectful too.

I fear if moderation changes or ends up being less then the forums might end up becoming disorganized and toxic like social media. Please don't change moderation.

Again.. and again.. and again..
This is NOT the safe space you are looking for! This is not a happy place with fluffy unicorns. This is a gaming forum, where people are discussing, reporting and expressing their views on the PRODUCT they bought with their earned money. Sometimes controversial and confrontational. Deal with it.

ZOS_Kevin

thorwyn wrote: »

Again.. and again.. and again..
This is NOT the safe space you are looking for! This is not a happy place with fluffy unicorns. This is a gaming forum, where people are discussing, reporting and expressing their views on the PRODUCT they bought with their earned money. Sometimes controversial and confrontational. Deal with it.

Going to clarify slightly here. This should be a safe space for people to discuss, report and express their views. Absolutely. And there will be times where that discussion can be controversial and disagreements can (and should) happen. Those disagreements can happen without name calling or trying to ridicule another poster. That also makes people unwelcome to have conversations here. Confrontational does not need to be part of that equation. Conformational implies hostility, and that is not appropriate most cases here.

Again, we are going to chat with some of you in a one on one capacity to get feedback on how we can get to a better middle ground here, and have conversations with our mod team. That way, more open and honest conversations can happen, but folks still feel like their voice can be heard without fear of someone getting hostile toward them.

Also wanted to note that we hear the feedback on having more clearly defined rules, so we will work on that as well.

ZOS_Kevin

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

I did get a warning for making a joke about censorship.
Another time I made an obvious parody and got into trouble for that.

I completely understand the need to protect other people from abuse and threats. However, making jokes about the game itself or the general state of performance is essentially a victimless crime when it is not targetting anyone.

We've had a few instances where jokes are misinterpreted. Just want to remind folks that this is all happening over text. So sometimes mods do not recognize the intended joke in comments. I have helped reverse some of those as they have happened. So when instances like that happen, please either contact a mod, contact me, or place a ticket and then contact me. We are chat things out and come to a better resolution.

SteveCampsOut

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Again.. and again.. and again..
This is NOT the safe space you are looking for! This is not a happy place with fluffy unicorns. This is a gaming forum, where people are discussing, reporting and expressing their views on the PRODUCT they bought with their earned money. Sometimes controversial and confrontational. Deal with it.

Going to clarify slightly here. This should be a safe space for people to discuss, report and express their views. Absolutely. And there will be times where that discussion can be controversial and disagreements can (and should) happen. Those disagreements can happen without name calling or trying to ridicule another poster. That also makes people unwelcome to have conversations here. Confrontational does not need to be part of that equation. Conformational implies hostility, and that is not appropriate most cases here.

Again, we are going to chat with some of you in a one on one capacity to get feedback on how we can get to a better middle ground here, and have conversations with our mod team. That way, more open and honest conversations can happen, but folks still feel like their voice can be heard without fear of someone getting hostile toward them.

Also wanted to note that we hear the feedback on having more clearly defined rules, so we will work on that as well.

So myself coming off of a recent 72 hour ban for trolling for a remark that wasn't trolling in my opinion, it was a counter argument to what someone else posted. Both that OP's post and mine were removed and I got a ban for trolling for merely replying. The TOS would be fine IF the terms "Baiting" and "Trolling" were better and more clearly defined. Most of the warning I have gotten that led up to the "Trolling" ban were warnings for "Baiting"! You can't respond to some of the ludicrous complaints some people post here without it coming across as disagreement but to this day I still say I have not posted anything to "Bait" someone else's responses. It is what it is.

I'm 61, grumpy and currently caring for my mother dying here at home on Hospice. I come up short when it comes to patience when dealing with a lot of folks because dealing with death takes just about all the patience I have in me, but not once have I ever made a personal attack or name called anyone here in these forums. While I'm not ready to leave ESO, after this recent ban I am very ready to turn my back on these forums just to keep my own peace of mind.

PS - I still think people need to learn to use the forum "Ignore" feature instead of reporting everyone who disagrees with them.

ZOS_Kevin

@wilykcat Removed the comment.

Tandor

Human nature being what it is, those who sometimes find themselves in a position where they're hit by moderation will consider the moderation oppressive, while those who never find themselves in that position will consider it spot on.

Personally, I'd like as a standard provision for people always to be notified when their post has been moderated including deletion, and I'm also sympathetic to the argument recently made in another thread that forum disciplinary points should expire after a set period otherwise an errant poster can never learn and start over with a clean slate.

ZOS_Kevin

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

So myself coming off of a recent 72 hour ban for trolling for a remark that wasn't trolling in my opinion, it was a counter argument to what someone else posted. Both that OP's post and mine were removed and I got a ban for trolling for merely replying. The TOS would be fine IF the terms "Baiting" and "Trolling" were better and more clearly defined. Most of the warning I have gotten that led up to the "Trolling" ban were warnings for "Baiting"! You can't respond to some of the ludicrous complaints some people post here without it coming across as disagreement but to this day I still say I have not posted anything to "Bait" someone else's responses. It is what it is.

I'm 61, grumpy and currently caring for my mother dying here at home on Hospice. I come up short when it comes to patience when dealing with a lot of folks because dealing with death takes just about all the patience I have in me, but not once have I ever made a personal attack or name called anyone here in these forums. While I'm not ready to leave ESO, after this recent ban I am very ready to turn my back on these forums just to keep my own peace of mind.

I'm not going to address any specifics of your ban, as I don't have the context and this is not the proper place to hash that out. However, the point is well taken that terms need to be better defined. That would give you more clear guidelines as to what we mean when using those terms.

Also, I'm sorry to hear about your mother. I was also a caregiver for my grandmother when she was not in good health. So I understand the pressure associated with that. I think that is also why I made a point to stress that confrontation is not needed. We have no idea what other folks are going through on the other side of the screen, and that can manifest in people in different ways. I don't expect things to be a happy go lucky summer camp. But there is also a line between a disagreement and getting hostile. So we will work on better drawing a line there as we have discussions in the new year.

ZOS_Kevin

Tandor wrote: »

Human nature being what it is, those who sometimes find themselves in a position where they're hit by moderation will consider the moderation oppressive, while those who never find themselves in that position will consider it spot on.

Personally, I'd like as a standard provision for people always to be notified when their post has been moderated including deletion, and I'm also sympathetic to the argument recently made in another thread that forum disciplinary points should expire after a set period otherwise an errant poster can never learn and start over with a clean slate.

There is a lot of nuance to a slate being wiped clean. Not saying we can't adopt something like that in the long-term. But that conversation will need to take a backseat while we get the conversations around moderation underway.

spartaxoxo

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Human nature being what it is, those who sometimes find themselves in a position where they're hit by moderation will consider the moderation oppressive, while those who never find themselves in that position will consider it spot on.

Personally, I'd like as a standard provision for people always to be notified when their post has been moderated including deletion, and I'm also sympathetic to the argument recently made in another thread that forum disciplinary points should expire after a set period otherwise an errant poster can never learn and start over with a clean slate.

There is a lot of nuance to a slate being wiped clean. Not saying we can't adopt something like that in the long-term. But that conversation will need to take a backseat while we get the conversations around moderation underway.

I think that conversation needs to be forefront. One of the biggest reasons that moderation feels so oppressive IS the points expiration.

I can't speak for others, but for myself one of the reasons that the current direction is so stressful is because points never expire.

Let's create a pretend poster for example.

They have 10,000 posts. They have posted in this forum for 7 years. The community generally thinks of that poster as positive member of the community. They have written guides, tried to be respectful, and are usually informative in their posts.

One time during the pandemic that poster got mad and told someone off they shouldn't have.

Another time, 7 years ago, before they understood back and forth, they didn't actually say anything all that bad but they posted one too many times for someone's liking and ended up banned.

They have not posted anything else bad since then.

This poster would today be in danger of a permanent ban on their next account action. Despite showing 4 years of perfect behavior and 7 years of an overall positive post history across thousands of posts.

Why? Because they messed up twice, points don't expire, and three strikes and you're out.

This profile is not a real person and is possibly slightly exaggerated. But, not by much. That's the lived reality of a lot of posters and it is a major contributing factor in why mods getting it wrong feels so incredibly oppressive.

You could end up permanently banned in 3 years because of a mistake a mod made today.

Sleepsin

LadyGP wrote: »

This comment was dropped in the lag thread and wanted to pass it along as I know it's been a very hot topic as of late.



Sounds like feedback has been heard and they are going to find a better balance.

I disagree with your conclusion. There have been other threads about moderation over the years, and each time a similar response is made. Yet aggressive moderation does not change.

ZOS_Kevin

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Human nature being what it is, those who sometimes find themselves in a position where they're hit by moderation will consider the moderation oppressive, while those who never find themselves in that position will consider it spot on.

Personally, I'd like as a standard provision for people always to be notified when their post has been moderated including deletion, and I'm also sympathetic to the argument recently made in another thread that forum disciplinary points should expire after a set period otherwise an errant poster can never learn and start over with a clean slate.

There is a lot of nuance to a slate being wiped clean. Not saying we can't adopt something like that in the long-term. But that conversation will need to take a backseat while we get the conversations around moderation underway.

I think that conversation needs to be forefront. One of the biggest reasons that moderation feels so oppressive IS the points expiration.

I can't speak for others, but for myself one of the reasons that the current direction is so stressful is because points never expire.

Let's create a pretend poster for example.

They have 10,000 posts. They have posted in this forum for 7 years. The community generally thinks of that poster as positive member of the community. They have written guides, tried to be respectful, and are usually informative in their posts.

One time during the pandemic that poster got mad and told someone off they shouldn't have.

Another time, 7 years ago, before they understood back and forth, they didn't actually say anything all that bad but they posted one too many times for someone's liking and ended up banned.

They have not posted anything else bad since then.

This poster would today be in danger of a permanent ban on their next account action. Despite showing 4 years of perfect behavior and 7 years of an overall positive post history across thousands of posts.

Why? Because they messed up twice, points don't expire, and three strikes and you're out.

This profile is not a real person and is possibly slightly exaggerated. But, not by much. That's the lived reality of a lot of posters and it is a major contributing factor in why mods getting it wrong feels so incredibly oppressive.

You could end up permanently banned in 3 years because of a mistake a mod made today.

Just wanted to follow up on this real quick. The reason I noted that it needs to be addressed long term is because there is far more work and systems that need to be discussed when addressing a system like that. That involves a whole set of teams that are independent from me and have their own thoughts on how that process goes, in addition to legalities. Moderation retooling is something that can actively be addressed between myself and far less people.

Also, the system currently set up is not that strict. I think the example given is a far extreme of what happens now. We account for time and nuance when moderation happens. Again, agree that we should discuss the system, but trying to get what can be addressed now handled first.

manukartofanu

Tandor wrote: »

Human nature being what it is, those who sometimes find themselves in a position where they're hit by moderation will consider the moderation oppressive, while those who never find themselves in that position will consider it spot on.

Personally, I'd like as a standard provision for people always to be notified when their post has been moderated including deletion, and I'm also sympathetic to the argument recently made in another thread that forum disciplinary points should expire after a set period otherwise an errant poster can never learn and start over with a clean slate.

Unfortunately, you're completely safe here only if you don't post anything at all. Or, if you always praise absolutely everything in the game and the staff whenever possible. From what I can see, you can even provoke others into breaking the rules or openly troll them. As long as no ZOS employee is affected, you can get away with it.

spartaxoxo

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Human nature being what it is, those who sometimes find themselves in a position where they're hit by moderation will consider the moderation oppressive, while those who never find themselves in that position will consider it spot on.

Personally, I'd like as a standard provision for people always to be notified when their post has been moderated including deletion, and I'm also sympathetic to the argument recently made in another thread that forum disciplinary points should expire after a set period otherwise an errant poster can never learn and start over with a clean slate.

There is a lot of nuance to a slate being wiped clean. Not saying we can't adopt something like that in the long-term. But that conversation will need to take a backseat while we get the conversations around moderation underway.

I think that conversation needs to be forefront. One of the biggest reasons that moderation feels so oppressive IS the points expiration.

I can't speak for others, but for myself one of the reasons that the current direction is so stressful is because points never expire.

Let's create a pretend poster for example.

They have 10,000 posts. They have posted in this forum for 7 years. The community generally thinks of that poster as positive member of the community. They have written guides, tried to be respectful, and are usually informative in their posts.

One time during the pandemic that poster got mad and told someone off they shouldn't have.

Another time, 7 years ago, before they understood back and forth, they didn't actually say anything all that bad but they posted one too many times for someone's liking and ended up banned.

They have not posted anything else bad since then.

This poster would today be in danger of a permanent ban on their next account action. Despite showing 4 years of perfect behavior and 7 years of an overall positive post history across thousands of posts.

Why? Because they messed up twice, points don't expire, and three strikes and you're out.

This profile is not a real person and is possibly slightly exaggerated. But, not by much. That's the lived reality of a lot of posters and it is a major contributing factor in why mods getting it wrong feels so incredibly oppressive.

You could end up permanently banned in 3 years because of a mistake a mod made today.

Just wanted to follow up on this real quick. The reason I noted that it needs to be addressed long term is because there is far more work and systems that need to be discussed when addressing a system like that. That involves a whole set of teams that are independent from me and have their own thoughts on how that process goes, in addition to legalities. Moderation retooling is something that can actively be addressed between myself and far less people.

Also, the system currently set up is not that strict. I think the example given is a far extreme of what happens now. We account for time and nuance when moderation happens. Again, agree that we should discuss the system, but trying to get what can be addressed now handled first.

I completely understand where you're coming from with that and I appreciate the follow up. I just wanted to note that the example is not at all far from what I have personally witnessed. I can't give a real example on here for understandable reasons but that example is not far off from things that I have witnessed. I can't speak on that any further in a thread but I would be willing to discuss in DM next year if you're interested.

I appreciate the efforts with retooling, especially your willingness and openness to this much needed discussion. But, I just wanted to discuss how the points system plays such a strong role in this because they are given out for infractions that are quite minor. Even if the points from a systems standpoint end up having to be assigned that way, I think the heaviness of the points is absolutely still something worth discussing.

ZOS_Kevin

No worrries, @spartaxoxo! Points taken! Appreciate the perspective there.

DenverRalphy

I'd like to see the inconsistencies addressed.

Just days ago, a thread on this very topic had included a couple of replies from ZOS staff which indicated that in that particular instance, discussing frustrations with the modertion was acceptable since it was providing feedback. But then soon after, another forum moderator stepped in and shut it down for "Bashing" because they determined that that's what the criticism was, and cited that it was against the ToS for bashing ZOS itself.

ZOS_Kevin

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'd like to see the inconsistencies addressed.

Just days ago, a thread on this very topic had included a couple of replies from ZOS staff which indicated that in that particular instance, discussing frustrations with the modertion was acceptable since it was providing feedback. But then soon after, another forum moderator stepped in and shut it down for "Bashing" because they determined that that's what the criticism was, and cited that it was against the ToS for bashing ZOS itself.

We are always fine to keep conversations open as long as they don’t turn into targeting individuals, including team members. Everyone is fully capable of engaging in conversations like these without turning to singling people out. This thread conversation has been great about doing that. We also have that noted in community rules.

Bashing and Slanderous Comments: We do not permit the bashing of individuals (including ZeniMax employees), groups, or other companies on our forums. We believe that doing so is neither constructive nor in spirit of our game and community.

DenverRalphy

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'd like to see the inconsistencies addressed.

Just days ago, a thread on this very topic had included a couple of replies from ZOS staff which indicated that in that particular instance, discussing frustrations with the modertion was acceptable since it was providing feedback. But then soon after, another forum moderator stepped in and shut it down for "Bashing" because they determined that that's what the criticism was, and cited that it was against the ToS for bashing ZOS itself.

We are always fine to keep conversations open as long as they don’t turn into targeting individuals, including team members. Everyone is fully capable of engaging in conversations like these without turning to singling people out. This thread conversation has been great about doing that. We also have that noted in community rules.

Bashing and Slanderous Comments: We do not permit the bashing of individuals (including ZeniMax employees), groups, or other companies on our forums. We believe that doing so is neither constructive nor in spirit of our game and community.

And I quite agree with that policy. Absolutely. But unless I really missed something while following the thread, there was no bashing or slanderous comments, merely statements of varying levels of frustration. And what was noteworthy about it was the inconsistent approach of how different users bearing the ZOS moniker treated the thread.

And I'd like to quantify this reply with honest concern. I'm in no way trying to be confrontational nor accusatory.

ZOS_Kevin

@DenverRalphy I totally understand there was no attempt to be accusatory. And very much understand the concern expressed.

SilverBride

The rules may be reasonable but how they are dealt with is very heavy handed. And appealing doesn't seem to do anything, even when the misinterpretation is very clearly presented. I have a few personal examples that I feel were completely unwarranted.

And I strongly feel that moderation should drop off a poster's history after a year.

Destai

@ZOS_Kevin I am genuinely curious what was considered slander on the recent thread. I was on it for a while and IMO not a single comment was slander. All I saw were observations.

As for jokes, I’ve had first hand experiences where I saw jokes and slight sarcasm are not tolerated. You may see things differently and state the official company position, that’s fine. But in practice, it is very different.

Honestly, most things don’t need to be moderated at all. If I self censor or acronym a swear word or phrase, that literally hurts no one. The necro thread practice needs to change; happy to show you many examples why. Most times, I feel like “Unnecessary back and forth” is just normal conversation. And you’re saying you are okay with discussing, disagreeing, and controversial topics, that’s often how it looks.

I think a lot of the tone policing could be dialed back too. Maybe it’s just me, but if someone checks me with kindness and patience, I will usually lighten my tone. I don’t see why that isn’t done here. People have bad days, stress, and other things like mood disorders that impact their tone. If they’re not abusing people, then what does it matter. People can choose what to respond to.

For most “offenses”, no one should be getting banned, let alone worry about their game account itself, for posting here. Outside of really nasty stuff, exploits, or explicit content, of course. I think this mentality of “they make mistakes once in a while” diminishes the severity we face when we’re on the receiving end.

Moderation needs to take a more personable approach, and if someone gets too lippy, start by having a conversation with them. Being reasonable, telling someone where things may have landed wrong is going to work wonders for morale here. Be open to being wrong.

If something has to be closed, actually saying what specifically necessitated it, would also be helpful. I don’t think the standard boilerplate we get now tells us. Based on your comments, it sounds like you guys are starting to see this, and that’s a step in the right direction.

We’re just asking for respect. Ideally we should get to a place where people don’t have to bring this up so often and ask for your help.

Thanks for coming here and having conversations. I really do appreciate you and your support of the community. I hope I can be a part of the 1:1 conversations you mentioned. I had a draft prepared for the previous thread, can you send you a clean list of those suggestions.