Overland again

barney2525

I see they are thinking about making overland mobs more difficult again. My Question would be - Why ?
The vast majority of players I observe simply run past everything, from point A to point B. It doesn't matter what the difficulty level is if you simply speed past everything.
I've seen the few complaints from those who want Every mob to basically be Bosses and I have never read a real basis as to Why. Overland is the Flavor of the game, Not the end all be all Goal for playing. You move through different areas, encountering different types of mobs depending on the terrain/location. It is supposed to be an immersive feel to the game as your character develops.
It is Not supposed to be a difficult Hindrance to characters simply moving from the quest giver to the quest location and then back.
IMHO, there are many other aspects that can be improved. This does not seem to be one of particular need to be changed.
Thoughts?

FabresFour

because it is a game, and it's better if the game is played lol

metheglyn

barney2525 wrote: »

The vast majority of players I observe simply run past everything, from point A to point B. It doesn't matter what the difficulty level is if you simply speed past everything.

This is what I've noticed, too. They can't be fussed to deal with an enemy that they hyperbolically claim takes "one light attack" to kill, but I'm meant to believe they'll want to stick around for a protracted fight?

Well, I think overland difficulty is fine as is, so I'd prefer ZOS to spend their development time elsewhere.

Franchise408

metheglyn wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

The vast majority of players I observe simply run past everything, from point A to point B. It doesn't matter what the difficulty level is if you simply speed past everything.

This is what I've noticed, too. They can't be fussed to deal with an enemy that they hyperbolically claim takes "one light attack" to kill, but I'm meant to believe they'll want to stick around for a protracted fight?

Well, I think overland difficulty is fine as is, so I'd prefer ZOS to spend their development time elsewhere.

I don't think overland difficulty is fine where it is, and this is exactly where I want them spending their development time

LadyGP

ESO isn't "hard" anymore. I remember back in the day where a stupid giant would make me rage and I'd have to ask zone for help and then 20 people would come fight this giant with me. It was fun - now I can damn near one shot ads.... it's not fun.

Much needed change IMO.

RaptorRodeoGod

metheglyn wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

The vast majority of players I observe simply run past everything, from point A to point B. It doesn't matter what the difficulty level is if you simply speed past everything.

This is what I've noticed, too. They can't be fussed to deal with an enemy that they hyperbolically claim takes "one light attack" to kill, but I'm meant to believe they'll want to stick around for a protracted fight?

Well, I think overland difficulty is fine as is, so I'd prefer ZOS to spend their development time elsewhere.

Why waste an extra second fighting something mindlessly when there's actual interesting combat to run to?

fall0athboy

I feel like the overland difficulty level is something that a vast vocal minority of players have been talking about

metheglyn

Franchise408 wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

The vast majority of players I observe simply run past everything, from point A to point B. It doesn't matter what the difficulty level is if you simply speed past everything.

This is what I've noticed, too. They can't be fussed to deal with an enemy that they hyperbolically claim takes "one light attack" to kill, but I'm meant to believe they'll want to stick around for a protracted fight?

Well, I think overland difficulty is fine as is, so I'd prefer ZOS to spend their development time elsewhere.

I don't think overland difficulty is fine where it is, and this is exactly where I want them spending their development time

Lucky for you that's what they're doing, then.

RaptorRodeoGod

As long as they made the difficulty optional, I can't imagine it being a bad thing

DeathStalker

They will complain until the overland difficulty is made harder. When it is implemented and backfires, which it will, they will push all the blame on " poorly implemented ".

There is already harder overland content in a way. Take dragons for example. How many of these people complaining are farming dragons? Almost nobody touches dragons ever. Why? because they are TOO HARD. How much content in DLC zones was made to be harder and is completely ignored and almost never touched? How much of this same content would be played by casuals including trials and vet dungeons if a lower difficulty was given? They have harder content in a lot of DLC zones and it's ignored, make the base game zones harder and they will be ignored by the majority of players as well.

metheglyn

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

The vast majority of players I observe simply run past everything, from point A to point B. It doesn't matter what the difficulty level is if you simply speed past everything.

This is what I've noticed, too. They can't be fussed to deal with an enemy that they hyperbolically claim takes "one light attack" to kill, but I'm meant to believe they'll want to stick around for a protracted fight?

Well, I think overland difficulty is fine as is, so I'd prefer ZOS to spend their development time elsewhere.

Why waste an extra second fighting something mindlessly when there's actual interesting combat to run to?

I mean, if that's what they're doing, sure. But I haven't seen people running to fight something. Mostly they're just running past mobs to get a skyshard or harvest a resource. Or to get to a crowded dolmen that goes down in twenty seconds.

Although, actually, I have seen people come running to fight a world boss, trailing overland mobs, so in that case I guess they were running to a harder fight.

RaptorRodeoGod

DeathStalker wrote: »

They will complain until the overland difficulty is made harder. When it is implemented and backfires, which it will, they push all the blame on " poorly implemented ".

There is already harder overland content in a way. Take dragons for example. How many of these people complaining are farming dragons? Almost nobody touches dragons ever. Why? because they are TOO HARD. How much content in DLC zones was made to be harder and is completely ignored and almost never touched? How much of this same content would be played by casuals including trials and vet dungeons if a lower difficulty was given? They have harder content in a lot of DLC zones and it's ignored, make the base game zones harder and they will be ignored by the majority of players as well.

The harder content within the zones is not the focus of the zones main story, which is why people say overland isn't hard. It's not because harder content does not exists within overland, It's because the stories are a cakewalk for many players.

Kyip

Not everyone wants to be forced to group up for hard content all the damned time.

ApoAlaia

I must admit, I find certain things a bit jarring... things that have aged very, very poorly.

Like during the last 'leg' of the DB questline when, during an encounter, an NPC utters (with not a hint of irony in her voice) Get ready for a real fight! and then the NPC she is referring to is dead before touching the ground.

Is a rather 'extreme' example but I can see how this might actually kill some people's immersion dead.

Tommy_The_Gun

I don't think making "bullet sponge" Overland enemies is a good idea. Cuz this is how they are going to do that, right ? I don't think making every enemy to be on "Dark Souls" level of deadly would work for ESO & ESO's Lag. Imagine every Troll or Minotaur to have way more HP.... whyyyy ? Imagine Murkmire World Boss with even more HP... WHYYYY ?! Why it should take 5 years for every solo player (with optimized build) to kill a world boss alone when the zone is dead empty ? ? ?

RaptorRodeoGod

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I don't think making "bullet sponge" Overland enemies is a good idea. Cuz this is how they are going to do that, right ? I don't think making every enemy to be on "Dark Souls" level of deadly would work for ESO & ESO's Lag. Imagine every Troll or Minotaur to have way more HP.... whyyyy ? Imagine Murkmire World Boss with even more HP... WHYYYY ?! Why it should take 5 years for every solo player (with optimized build) to kill a world boss alone when the zone is dead empty ? ? ?

Nobody is asking for a bullet sponge, they're asking for engaging

tomofhyrule

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I must admit, I find certain things a bit jarring... things that have aged very, very poorly.

Like during the last 'leg' of the DB questline when, during an encounter, an NPC utters (with not a hint of irony in her voice) Get ready for a real fight! and then the NPC she is referring to is dead before touching the ground.

Is a rather 'extreme' example but I can see how this might actually kill some people's immersion dead.

Devil's Advocate though - there are people for whom those fights do take a while. There are already people who say that they're struggling to complete certain questlines because the end boss is too hard for them.

Even for players who could take the bosses down with no problem, it's really fun to do things not-as-intended. We've got how many sets in this game so far? Why not use one of the silly ones to have fun while you're doing it? Or if you aren't built to do damage, you don't really do much - I remember the first time the Crow boss released and I got through it, then when I talked to others about it they were talking about invincibility phases? And I was like ??? I didn't have those. Well, I'm a tank so I wasn't DPSing it fast enough, so he never went invuln because I was going slow enough.

A global 'solution' is going to hurt one group or another. Either it'll be too easy and be a yawnfest for people in their 100k parse gear, or it'll be too tough for people who don't spend hours practicing their parse. That's where some customization may need to come in.

Also - most of the 'overland' people talk about being too easy are story endbosses. I don't know if anyone's going around saying "I wish every overland mob was a v14 Craglorn wasp because I want my farming runs to be as hard as vDSR!"

ApoAlaia

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I don't think making "bullet sponge" Overland enemies is a good idea. Cuz this is how they are going to do that, right ? I don't think making every enemy to be on "Dark Souls" level of deadly would work for ESO & ESO's Lag. Imagine every Troll or Minotaur to have way more HP.... whyyyy ? Imagine Murkmire World Boss with even more HP... WHYYYY ?! Why it should take 5 years for every solo player (with optimized build) to kill a world boss alone when the zone is dead empty ? ? ?

Bullet sponginess is not the only option, in fact is not even the preferred option.

Chances are all mobs will have invulnerability phases, every other offensive action they perform will be a hard CC that doesn't trigger immunity and groups of mobs will have 'channellers' in the periphery

Darth_LucSky

DeathStalker wrote: »

They will complain until the overland difficulty is made harder. When it is implemented and backfires, which it will, they will push all the blame on " poorly implemented ".

There is already harder overland content in a way. Take dragons for example. How many of these people complaining are farming dragons? Almost nobody touches dragons ever. Why? because they are TOO HARD. How much content in DLC zones was made to be harder and is completely ignored and almost never touched? How much of this same content would be played by casuals including trials and vet dungeons if a lower difficulty was given? They have harder content in a lot of DLC zones and it's ignored, make the base game zones harder and they will be ignored by the majority of players as well.

I remember going to Cold Harbour for the first time and being actually frightened by all the Daedra, feeling immersed in that otherwordly and gloomy place, afraid from straying too far away from safety. It was an amazing feeling, and it is something that we don't have anymore. The main character feels almost like a god. All I want is to be able to be afraid again, to actually feel the pressure of being an adventurer, not some deity with god-like powers.

Taril

My qualms are how this is going to play out.

Like, is it just going to be about making WB's and incursions less accessible outside events where people zerg them?

Or is it going to be about making it tedious to slog through anything because mob health is scaled so that full gold geared CP3600 players don't obliterate random trash mobs, while anyone leveling up will have to take 4 whole eternities to take down a random wolf next to a plant they want to harvest?

Overall, I'm not convinced that such a task will be tackled in a particularly great way.

I'm not averse to difficulty. But I just don't see how they can make content that scales to the absurd power levels that veteran players can obtain without it borking the experience for literally everyone else.

Hopefully they start off small, with something like Veteran Public Dungeons (I.e. Something similar to the Craglorn style Group Public Dungeons but for regular PD's) so they can sort out the implementations in optional side content rather than jump right into sweeping Overland changes.

Desiato

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

The harder content within the zones is not the focus of the zones main story, which is why people say overland isn't hard. It's not because harder content does not exists within overland, It's because the stories are a cakewalk for many players.

Even world bosses can't be credibly called difficult when they are easy for casual old players like me to solo, even with low cp and bad builds.

To truly appreciate how easy ESO is, it is best to contrast it to the difficulty presented at launch. Levels 1-50 were always easy, but starting at VR1, mechanics mattered in overland content more than they currently do normal dungeon/trial content. Players had to pay attention to cues and respond accordingly. It was normal for players to face defeat. Giants could one shot. Less confident players would wait at delve bosses for help.

The first difficulty nerf happened during the summer of 2014, but the game has continued to get easier and easier since.

Base game dungeons were tougher in many respects to today's vet DLC dungeons. Combat cues needed to be respected and mechanics understood by everyone. Some of the first gen DLC dungeons like Maz and Cradle were more difficult on Normal than they now are on Vet.

The current state of Craglorn is a pale shade of what it used to be. To be clear, it was never the plane of fear in 1999, but it was a lot more challenging and interesting than it is today. I had so much fun duoing Crag content back in the day. It wasn't difficult per se, but it was difficult enough to require engagement. Crag delve bosses were probably close to on par with Vet dungeon bosses of today.

Kessra

If you'd played ESO before the One Tamriel update, you might still know that back then pulling like 3 or 4 mobs at the same time often times meant your characters death. Sure, knowledge about characters and how to play those efficiently wasn't on the level it is now, but it forced you to either group up or invest some time into your character development to master such pulls actually.

What I could imagine is to activate a vet flag that allows you to collect perfected overland sets. The difficulty here does not necessarily be on the level pre One Tamriel but at least add a bridge between curren overland zone "difficulty" level and the one of current DLC vet dungeons. Overland bosses could receive either new bosses or like a hardmode ability and the like.

ApoAlaia

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I must admit, I find certain things a bit jarring... things that have aged very, very poorly.

Like during the last 'leg' of the DB questline when, during an encounter, an NPC utters (with not a hint of irony in her voice) Get ready for a real fight! and then the NPC she is referring to is dead before touching the ground.

Is a rather 'extreme' example but I can see how this might actually kill some people's immersion dead.

Devil's Advocate though - there are people for whom those fights do take a while. There are already people who say that they're struggling to complete certain questlines because the end boss is too hard for them.

Even for players who could take the bosses down with no problem, it's really fun to do things not-as-intended. We've got how many sets in this game so far? Why not use one of the silly ones to have fun while you're doing it? Or if you aren't built to do damage, you don't really do much - I remember the first time the Crow boss released and I got through it, then when I talked to others about it they were talking about invincibility phases? And I was like ??? I didn't have those. Well, I'm a tank so I wasn't DPSing it fast enough, so he never went invuln because I was going slow enough.

A global 'solution' is going to hurt one group or another. Either it'll be too easy and be a yawnfest for people in their 100k parse gear, or it'll be too tough for people who don't spend hours practicing their parse. That's where some customization may need to come in.

Also - most of the 'overland' people talk about being too easy are story endbosses. I don't know if anyone's going around saying "I wish every overland mob was a v14 Craglorn wasp because I want my farming runs to be as hard as vDSR!"

I guess ZOS (who has the data) thinks that even though this may be polarising and displease some of the players it might increase the overall satisfaction levels?

Not sure why they'd do it otherwise; seeing how long this matter has been set aside 'for another day' it doesn't seem to me that is any one dev's favourite pet project (so to speak).

OsUfi

Taril wrote: »

I'm not averse to difficulty. But I just don't see how they can make content that scales to the absurd power levels that veteran players can obtain without it borking the experience for literally everyone else.

I feel like this is an arguement based against a tiny minority of those that want harder content. Most folks just want story bosses that don't fall over when you look at them the wrong way. I love the stories, but it's hard for some of us to be engaged with them when they're so easy.

Funnily enough, Fallout 76 got overland difficulty right with One Wasteland. It baffles me that One Tamriel went so far down the easy scale.

DeathStalker

Darth_LucSky wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

They will complain until the overland difficulty is made harder. When it is implemented and backfires, which it will, they will push all the blame on " poorly implemented ".

There is already harder overland content in a way. Take dragons for example. How many of these people complaining are farming dragons? Almost nobody touches dragons ever. Why? because they are TOO HARD. How much content in DLC zones was made to be harder and is completely ignored and almost never touched? How much of this same content would be played by casuals including trials and vet dungeons if a lower difficulty was given? They have harder content in a lot of DLC zones and it's ignored, make the base game zones harder and they will be ignored by the majority of players as well.

I remember going to Cold Harbour for the first time and being actually frightened by all the Daedra, feeling immersed in that otherwordly and gloomy place, afraid from straying too far away from safety. It was an amazing feeling, and it is something that we don't have anymore. The main character feels almost like a god. All I want is to be able to be afraid again, to actually feel the pressure of being an adventurer, not some deity with god-like powers.

then why aren't you trying to solo a dragon?

Fischblut

I love easy overland In ESO, it's major part of my enjoyment - I explore to admire the world and find beautiful/funny scenes, do quests, collect surveys, dig treasure maps, gather resources. All this is possible only because mobs do not scare me, and I am not under stress during my adventures.

When I think about playing something for relaxation, this is overland in ESO.

I can do dungeons and trials, but this content is always stressful for me. If I go for some veteran title, I feel emotionally exhausted and need to rest from doing any other veteran content for days. My current break from veteran dungeons is some weeks now, after getting two more of my favorite titles.

I just prefer to explore and quest in peace, and ESO is the only game which offers this so far.

I play other game which has difficult overland content (mostly in DLC zones, but in some high-level base zones too). It has very high mob density, you can't just go afk for some real life reasons - because you will find your character killed by random mobs. I must carefully choose the place where my character can safely wait while I go bio, for example.
I do not casually explore overland there (which has beautiful scenery), I do not search for treasure chests which are (mostly) guarded by mobs. I pick only easy crafting resources. I participate in events only if there are other players to help. Dead players show special icon on map, and it's usual thing to see someone struggling with mobs/bosses overland... And even in that game, I see some people on forums asking for more difficult overland

But I mostly play that game for the amazing mount system (flying, swimming, ability to dye them), and ability to officially exchange gold to shop currency (and vice versa). It's sad when I get killed by some mobs, but... Afterwards I can enjoy my beautiful custom-colored dragon mount who has cute dancing idle animation

If ESO will get difficult overland, I doubt that it will also get an amazing mount system and official gold to crown exchange system to compensate for that loss

fall0athboy

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I don't think making "bullet sponge" Overland enemies is a good idea. Cuz this is how they are going to do that, right ? I don't think making every enemy to be on "Dark Souls" level of deadly would work for ESO & ESO's Lag. Imagine every Troll or Minotaur to have way more HP.... whyyyy ? Imagine Murkmire World Boss with even more HP... WHYYYY ?! Why it should take 5 years for every solo player (with optimized build) to kill a world boss alone when the zone is dead empty ? ? ?

Bullet sponginess is not the only option, in fact is not even the preferred option.

Chances are all mobs will have invulnerability phases, every other offensive action they perform will be a hard CC that doesn't trigger immunity and groups of mobs will have 'channellers' in the periphery

Which is funny because I know the fanbase **hated** Gold Road's love of invulnerability phases.

ApoAlaia

fall0athboy wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I don't think making "bullet sponge" Overland enemies is a good idea. Cuz this is how they are going to do that, right ? I don't think making every enemy to be on "Dark Souls" level of deadly would work for ESO & ESO's Lag. Imagine every Troll or Minotaur to have way more HP.... whyyyy ? Imagine Murkmire World Boss with even more HP... WHYYYY ?! Why it should take 5 years for every solo player (with optimized build) to kill a world boss alone when the zone is dead empty ? ? ?

Bullet sponginess is not the only option, in fact is not even the preferred option.

Chances are all mobs will have invulnerability phases, every other offensive action they perform will be a hard CC that doesn't trigger immunity and groups of mobs will have 'channellers' in the periphery

Which is funny because I know the fanbase **hated** Gold Road's love of invulnerability phases.

I did write that with the tongue firmly planted in my cheek.

Sometimes I just can't help it...

nbksaske

50m health mudcrabs, I'm all for it 😂

Renato90085

It like warframe have a boss all player alway want buff he
Because he in this game only can survive 1~3sec
Other mmo(gw2 wow) have some overland hard or you can choose hard
but eso...we not need block boss heavy attack/we can stand them aoe parse and they not have any chance kill player

Taril

OsUfi wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

I'm not averse to difficulty. But I just don't see how they can make content that scales to the absurd power levels that veteran players can obtain without it borking the experience for literally everyone else.

I feel like this is an arguement based against a tiny minority of those that want harder content. Most folks just want story bosses that don't fall over when you look at them the wrong way. I love the stories, but it's hard for some of us to be engaged with them when they're so easy.

Funnily enough, Fallout 76 got overland difficulty right with One Wasteland. It baffles me that One Tamriel went so far down the easy scale.

The issue still comes in how its implemented.

It might not even fix the "Ease" of the bosses if all they do is crank its health up to a bajillion.

Or it could make them just infuriating if they're scaled for high power characters so lesser characters don't stand a chance.

There's a lot that can go wrong with changing things, especially given the wide range of power levels (And skill levels) that they're dealing with.