Update 44 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts
Revert the Azureblight Nerf
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sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »Skolandrikeb17_ESO wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »Skolandrikeb17_ESO wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »Skolandrikeb17_ESO wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »haleysarahw wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »haleysarahw wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »haleysarahw wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »If classes are underperforming, a set shouldn't be the solution.
I agree, but getting rid of their only tool to catch up before giving said solution isn't going to of be any help either, nerfing azureblight will only increase the need of spamming arcanists in trials even more.
Arcanists were already the meta even with azureblight. The only reason you brought other classes were for the unique buffs.
I'm sorry but this comment shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the PvE scene. Pound for pound in endgame PvE, DK still has the highest ceiling.
The issue with the proposed azureblight nerf for PvE as it stands is about fight construction. With more recent trial mechanics leveraging ad waves and multi-target priority as a way to make fights dynamic versus creating interesting single target mechanics, having sets to be able to appropriate handle those fights is paramount to success.
The comments people have made about more appropriately set balancing are relevant - but the current proposed nerf makes this set unusable and yes, does force groups into taking classes that have more foundational cleave into the content that requires cleave - i.e., more arcanists.
You should let all the top leaderboard score runners know they're doing it wrong bringing 7-8 arcanists. I'm sure you could easily topple their scores.
Thank you for skipping right past the point of this, which was that the reason for people bringing arcanists is about the construction of the content, and nerfing azureblight further shuts other classes out of contention.
What did you think I meant when I said arcanists are the meta?
We should be going off the correct score leaderboards and not previous patches. It doesn't make any sense to delve into the past when we are talking about the current meta. There are 7 classes in the game and a total of 12 people in the trials so we should expect each class to be represented at about 1.7 of their class per trial.
On the correct EU leaderboards the top groups are bringing about 4.8 arcanists to each trial. That is over double what we would expect to see if the classes were represented equally. Two of the groups brought 8 arcanists. The lowest number was 2 arcanists which is still above average.
When a class is almost triple the number of expected representation does that constitute a meta?
Also the screenshots you posted included 4 arcanists in the groups. Still way above average. I guess you were trying to prove my point?
These screenshots are all from this patch, but that's okay! And your post explicitly said 7-8.
There are 3 different trials that have 7-8 arcanists as the top score holders. So in your mind the only way a class can be considered meta is if they are run as 7-8 in every trial? Even in the screenshots you posted they are still double the expected average.
Nah you are changing goal posts man.
Arcanists strength is strong cleave but relatively lower single target damage in comparison to other classes.
At some point you reach diminishing returns when stacking cleave damage in boss fights when adds die quickly enough.
At this point it is more beneficial to have few classes with strong single target to kill main boss faster.
AB and recent arcanists nerfs meant that you could achieve good cleave with other classes so 7-8 arcanists is not necessary.
Is it still more comfortable to run half dd arcs, yes, but this is no way close to full group which is what you claim.
Now that AB is nerfed, extra cleave from arcanists becomes more valuable so we might go from 4 back to 7-8.
How have I shifted the goal posts? Instead of arguing with my hyperbolic statement about every trial being 7-8 arcanists, how about you address some of my questions? How many arcanists need to be run per trial before it is considered meta?
The question does not make sense, because no class is meta in all situations.
If you take a parse dummy, other classes can get higher parse due to higher single target damage.
So if you take fight like Yolna in isolation, arcanists are suddenly not really meta anymore.
For PvE trials currently full party arcanists are not necessarily meta. If we nerf azurenblight without buffing cleave I'm other classes it might become so.
I don't think thats how a meta works. So a class would have to be the best at healing, tanking, and dps in all situations for you to consider it a meta class? I guess that means azureblight isn't a meta set so it wouldn't be a big deal to nerf it right?
No, this is the opposite of what I said.
At the end of a day, meta is a very vague term and you can pick up conditions however you want.
No class is best in all circumstances. Are arcanist DD stronger on average than other classes - possibly.
Is running 8 arcanists in group optimal? - no, you get diminishing returns, this leads to class variety. And in the end total group composition is what actually matters.
Current AB nerf (they nerfed it pretty heavily) means other classes cannot compensate for less cleave -> leads to 8 arc dd being optimal - less diversity.
Azureblight is fine in the next patch and arcanists aren't meta. It shouldn't matter if azureblight is changed because it is intended as a cleave set. It still functions as a cleave set in the next patch.
It does 1/4 the damage compared to live, post nerf. It will be supplanted by other sets that do half the damage.
When it is used in the intended manner to cleave enemies it does the exact same damage.
It does not, because the tick rate was also nerfed along with the damage and scaling.
It has been tested extensively on pts.2 -
baconaura✭✭✭FionaFlute wrote: »Skolandrikeb17_ESO wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »Skolandrikeb17_ESO wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »Skolandrikeb17_ESO wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »haleysarahw wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »haleysarahw wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »haleysarahw wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »If classes are underperforming, a set shouldn't be the solution.
I agree, but getting rid of their only tool to catch up before giving said solution isn't going to of be any help either, nerfing azureblight will only increase the need of spamming arcanists in trials even more.
Arcanists were already the meta even with azureblight. The only reason you brought other classes were for the unique buffs.
I'm sorry but this comment shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the PvE scene. Pound for pound in endgame PvE, DK still has the highest ceiling.
The issue with the proposed azureblight nerf for PvE as it stands is about fight construction. With more recent trial mechanics leveraging ad waves and multi-target priority as a way to make fights dynamic versus creating interesting single target mechanics, having sets to be able to appropriate handle those fights is paramount to success.
The comments people have made about more appropriately set balancing are relevant - but the current proposed nerf makes this set unusable and yes, does force groups into taking classes that have more foundational cleave into the content that requires cleave - i.e., more arcanists.
You should let all the top leaderboard score runners know they're doing it wrong bringing 7-8 arcanists. I'm sure you could easily topple their scores.
Thank you for skipping right past the point of this, which was that the reason for people bringing arcanists is about the construction of the content, and nerfing azureblight further shuts other classes out of contention.
What did you think I meant when I said arcanists are the meta?
We should be going off the correct score leaderboards and not previous patches. It doesn't make any sense to delve into the past when we are talking about the current meta. There are 7 classes in the game and a total of 12 people in the trials so we should expect each class to be represented at about 1.7 of their class per trial.
On the correct EU leaderboards the top groups are bringing about 4.8 arcanists to each trial. That is over double what we would expect to see if the classes were represented equally. Two of the groups brought 8 arcanists. The lowest number was 2 arcanists which is still above average.
When a class is almost triple the number of expected representation does that constitute a meta?
Also the screenshots you posted included 4 arcanists in the groups. Still way above average. I guess you were trying to prove my point?
These screenshots are all from this patch, but that's okay! And your post explicitly said 7-8.
There are 3 different trials that have 7-8 arcanists as the top score holders. So in your mind the only way a class can be considered meta is if they are run as 7-8 in every trial? Even in the screenshots you posted they are still double the expected average.
Nah you are changing goal posts man.
Arcanists strength is strong cleave but relatively lower single target damage in comparison to other classes.
At some point you reach diminishing returns when stacking cleave damage in boss fights when adds die quickly enough.
At this point it is more beneficial to have few classes with strong single target to kill main boss faster.
AB and recent arcanists nerfs meant that you could achieve good cleave with other classes so 7-8 arcanists is not necessary.
Is it still more comfortable to run half dd arcs, yes, but this is no way close to full group which is what you claim.
Now that AB is nerfed, extra cleave from arcanists becomes more valuable so we might go from 4 back to 7-8.
How have I shifted the goal posts? Instead of arguing with my hyperbolic statement about every trial being 7-8 arcanists, how about you address some of my questions? How many arcanists need to be run per trial before it is considered meta?
The question does not make sense, because no class is meta in all situations.
If you take a parse dummy, other classes can get higher parse due to higher single target damage.
So if you take fight like Yolna in isolation, arcanists are suddenly not really meta anymore.
For PvE trials currently full party arcanists are not necessarily meta. If we nerf azurenblight without buffing cleave I'm other classes it might become so.
I don't think thats how a meta works. So a class would have to be the best at healing, tanking, and dps in all situations for you to consider it a meta class? I guess that means azureblight isn't a meta set so it wouldn't be a big deal to nerf it right?
No, this is the opposite of what I said.
At the end of a day, meta is a very vague term and you can pick up conditions however you want.
No class is best in all circumstances. Are arcanist DD stronger on average than other classes - possibly.
Is running 8 arcanists in group optimal? - no, you get diminishing returns, this leads to class variety. And in the end total group composition is what actually matters.
Current AB nerf (they nerfed it pretty heavily) means other classes cannot compensate for less cleave -> leads to 8 arc dd being optimal - less diversity.
Azureblight is fine in the next patch and arcanists aren't meta. It shouldn't matter if azureblight is changed because it is intended as a cleave set. It still functions as a cleave set in the next patch.
azureblight isnt fine lol, its dead like pyrebrand. In this PTS state, the base damage reduction, increase in explosion delay causes a nerf of 84.6 to 50%% damage reduction depending on number of targets.
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FionaFlute✭✭The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!3
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sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.2 -
FionaFlute✭✭FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.1 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.2 -
FionaFlute✭✭FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.2 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.3 -
FionaFlute✭✭FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?2 -
Synapsis123✭✭✭✭✭FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
Even if the set was doing 15% that's still a ton of damage for a single 5 piece set. The reality is in practice with a couple people using the set the 1 second cooldown will be hardly noticeable and the set will still perform as normal. The person you are replying to probably hasn't set foot in a trial recently.2 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
It is mathematically not possible for it to do the same damage, because the damage and tick rate have been reduced, and the scaling increased.
Unless it is bugged, it is not possible for it to do the same damage.0 -
FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
I mean, at the moment number of 60% of damage is pretty much an anecdote as well.2 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
Even if the set was doing 15% that's still a ton of damage for a single 5 piece set. The reality is in practice with a couple people using the set the 1 second cooldown will be hardly noticeable and the set will still perform as normal. The person you are replying to probably hasn't set foot in a trial recently.
It will literally tick half as often, with a lower tooltip, and you say the damage will be the same!
Math doesn't work like that.
I spent yesterday in Lucent HM progging unstoppable, and did sweaty Rockgrove multiple times over the weekend, so yes I have set foot in a trial recently.2 -
FionaFlute✭✭Skolandrikeb17_ESO wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
I mean, at the moment number of 60% of damage is pretty much an anecdote as well.
No it isn't. We have logs of how the set performs on live. They don't have logs on how the set performs on the PTS. I don't know how you can give feedback on the performance of a set on PTS without even trying it.2 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FionaFlute wrote: »Skolandrikeb17_ESO wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
I mean, at the moment number of 60% of damage is pretty much an anecdote as well.
No it isn't. We have logs of how the set performs on live. They don't have logs on how the set performs on the PTS. I don't know how you can give feedback on the performance of a set on PTS without even trying it.
You can look at the changes to the set and say that if it works the way they say it changed to working, it will do less damage by the specified amount.
Because if it does more than that, it's not working the way they said it would and will be patched to work the way they said it would. Math is math.2 -
Synapsis123✭✭✭✭✭Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
Even if the set was doing 15% that's still a ton of damage for a single 5 piece set. The reality is in practice with a couple people using the set the 1 second cooldown will be hardly noticeable and the set will still perform as normal. The person you are replying to probably hasn't set foot in a trial recently.
It will literally tick half as often, with a lower tooltip, and you say the damage will be the same!
Math doesn't work like that.
I spent yesterday in Lucent HM progging unstoppable, and did sweaty Rockgrove multiple times over the weekend, so yes I have set foot in a trial recently.
I can tell you haven't read the patch notes so I'm going to try to educate you. They upped the scaling on the set based on the number of enemies hit so the damage remains the same in cleave situations in which the set was designed for.2 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Synapsis123 wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
Even if the set was doing 15% that's still a ton of damage for a single 5 piece set. The reality is in practice with a couple people using the set the 1 second cooldown will be hardly noticeable and the set will still perform as normal. The person you are replying to probably hasn't set foot in a trial recently.
It will literally tick half as often, with a lower tooltip, and you say the damage will be the same!
Math doesn't work like that.
I spent yesterday in Lucent HM progging unstoppable, and did sweaty Rockgrove multiple times over the weekend, so yes I have set foot in a trial recently.
I can tell you haven't read the patch notes so I'm going to try to educate you. They upped the scaling on the set based on the number of enemies hit so the damage remains the same in cleave situations in which the set was designed for.
I can tell you didn't understand the patch notes when you read them so let me explain them to you. They cut the number of times it hits the enemies and lowered the tooltip so that even at max scaling it does half the current damage, and at anything below max scaling it does even less than that.Edited by sarahthes on September 30, 2024 11:14PM3 -
FionaFlute✭✭Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
Even if the set was doing 15% that's still a ton of damage for a single 5 piece set. The reality is in practice with a couple people using the set the 1 second cooldown will be hardly noticeable and the set will still perform as normal. The person you are replying to probably hasn't set foot in a trial recently.
It will literally tick half as often, with a lower tooltip, and you say the damage will be the same!
Math doesn't work like that.
I spent yesterday in Lucent HM progging unstoppable, and did sweaty Rockgrove multiple times over the weekend, so yes I have set foot in a trial recently.
So you think in practice you were getting an azureblight tick every .5 seconds on live? In a realistic situation do you think that was actually happening? Thats why things need to be tested. We don't just fabricate numbers to try and determine reality.2 -
Synapsis123✭✭✭✭✭FionaFlute wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
Even if the set was doing 15% that's still a ton of damage for a single 5 piece set. The reality is in practice with a couple people using the set the 1 second cooldown will be hardly noticeable and the set will still perform as normal. The person you are replying to probably hasn't set foot in a trial recently.
It will literally tick half as often, with a lower tooltip, and you say the damage will be the same!
Math doesn't work like that.
I spent yesterday in Lucent HM progging unstoppable, and did sweaty Rockgrove multiple times over the weekend, so yes I have set foot in a trial recently.
So you think in practice you were getting an azureblight tick every .5 seconds on live? In a realistic situation do you think that was actually happening? Thats why things need to be tested. We don't just fabricate numbers to try and determine reality.
That's a good point. I checked the logs on some recent trials and it looks like azureblight procs on average every 1.2 seconds so the 1 second proc cooldown will be a minor damage loss.2 -
FionaFlute wrote: »Skolandrikeb17_ESO wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
I mean, at the moment number of 60% of damage is pretty much an anecdote as well.
No it isn't. We have logs of how the set performs on live. They don't have logs on how the set performs on the PTS. I don't know how you can give feedback on the performance of a set on PTS without even trying it.
I spot checked a bunch of semi random leadership logs for trash in LE and it was not close to 60.
Dunno, math + some people did do parse on PTS and had similar results.
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sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FionaFlute wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
Even if the set was doing 15% that's still a ton of damage for a single 5 piece set. The reality is in practice with a couple people using the set the 1 second cooldown will be hardly noticeable and the set will still perform as normal. The person you are replying to probably hasn't set foot in a trial recently.
It will literally tick half as often, with a lower tooltip, and you say the damage will be the same!
Math doesn't work like that.
I spent yesterday in Lucent HM progging unstoppable, and did sweaty Rockgrove multiple times over the weekend, so yes I have set foot in a trial recently.
So you think in practice you were getting an azureblight tick every .5 seconds on live? In a realistic situation do you think that was actually happening? Thats why things need to be tested. We don't just fabricate numbers to try and determine reality.
Yes. We were.
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sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Here's a better example since I hadn't realized I'd had it filtered for a single player and it's cumulative of everyone's stacks.
2 -
Synapsis123✭✭✭✭✭FionaFlute wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
Even if the set was doing 15% that's still a ton of damage for a single 5 piece set. The reality is in practice with a couple people using the set the 1 second cooldown will be hardly noticeable and the set will still perform as normal. The person you are replying to probably hasn't set foot in a trial recently.
It will literally tick half as often, with a lower tooltip, and you say the damage will be the same!
Math doesn't work like that.
I spent yesterday in Lucent HM progging unstoppable, and did sweaty Rockgrove multiple times over the weekend, so yes I have set foot in a trial recently.
So you think in practice you were getting an azureblight tick every .5 seconds on live? In a realistic situation do you think that was actually happening? Thats why things need to be tested. We don't just fabricate numbers to try and determine reality.
Yes. We were.
That's why I said minor damage loss. Because there are situations where you will get lucky and get multiple in a row like that. This is purely anecdotal though. That's why it you need to look at it on average.2 -
baconaura✭✭✭Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
Even if the set was doing 15% that's still a ton of damage for a single 5 piece set. The reality is in practice with a couple people using the set the 1 second cooldown will be hardly noticeable and the set will still perform as normal. The person you are replying to probably hasn't set foot in a trial recently.
It will literally tick half as often, with a lower tooltip, and you say the damage will be the same!
Math doesn't work like that.
I spent yesterday in Lucent HM progging unstoppable, and did sweaty Rockgrove multiple times over the weekend, so yes I have set foot in a trial recently.
So you think in practice you were getting an azureblight tick every .5 seconds on live? In a realistic situation do you think that was actually happening? Thats why things need to be tested. We don't just fabricate numbers to try and determine reality.
Yes. We were.
That's why I said minor damage loss. Because there are situations where you will get lucky and get multiple in a row like that. This is purely anecdotal though. That's why it you need to look at it on average.
what are you talking about lol. you dont get lucky, it is exactly as it is expected to behave. its 3 targets. bahsei stacks build to 20 and explode, damaging bahsei, and 2 other abombinations get hit. so 3 hits every 0.5s is expected because there are 3 things to be hit.Edited by baconaura on September 30, 2024 11:30PM4 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
Even if the set was doing 15% that's still a ton of damage for a single 5 piece set. The reality is in practice with a couple people using the set the 1 second cooldown will be hardly noticeable and the set will still perform as normal. The person you are replying to probably hasn't set foot in a trial recently.
It will literally tick half as often, with a lower tooltip, and you say the damage will be the same!
Math doesn't work like that.
I spent yesterday in Lucent HM progging unstoppable, and did sweaty Rockgrove multiple times over the weekend, so yes I have set foot in a trial recently.
So you think in practice you were getting an azureblight tick every .5 seconds on live? In a realistic situation do you think that was actually happening? Thats why things need to be tested. We don't just fabricate numbers to try and determine reality.
Yes. We were.
That's why I said minor damage loss. Because there are situations where you will get lucky and get multiple in a row like that. This is purely anecdotal though. That's why it you need to look at it on average.
I had to search for about 3 seconds to find multiple in a row like that. Skimming that log, it was popping every 0.5s from when portal 1 came back up until all the abominations were dead, with only a single occasional late proc. Eyeballing it the proc time during that period was about every 0.6s. There were also only 3 targets up at once for the majority of that time.
The meta and accessibility of this fight (which is 4 year old content, it's not like it's new) is going to change dramatically.
I strongly agree with some of the posts that have called for azure to not be nerfed this hard in PvE until there's valid alternatives that enable cleave on non arcanist dds, at least to the point of making them competitive with arcanists. Right now azure levels the playing field a bit for multiple classes.2 -
Synapsis123✭✭✭✭✭Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
Even if the set was doing 15% that's still a ton of damage for a single 5 piece set. The reality is in practice with a couple people using the set the 1 second cooldown will be hardly noticeable and the set will still perform as normal. The person you are replying to probably hasn't set foot in a trial recently.
It will literally tick half as often, with a lower tooltip, and you say the damage will be the same!
Math doesn't work like that.
I spent yesterday in Lucent HM progging unstoppable, and did sweaty Rockgrove multiple times over the weekend, so yes I have set foot in a trial recently.
So you think in practice you were getting an azureblight tick every .5 seconds on live? In a realistic situation do you think that was actually happening? Thats why things need to be tested. We don't just fabricate numbers to try and determine reality.
Yes. We were.
That's why I said minor damage loss. Because there are situations where you will get lucky and get multiple in a row like that. This is purely anecdotal though. That's why it you need to look at it on average.
what are you talking about lol. you dont get lucky, it is exactly as it is expected to behave. its 3 targets. bahsei stacks build to 20 and explode, damaging bahsei, and 2 other abombinations get hit. so 3 hits every 0.5s is expected because there are 3 things to be hit.
Lets say I take you at your word and this was actually happening all the time in practice, you don't see any problem with a set adding 150k dps in a boss fight?
Edit: My math was wrong 150k every .5 seconds is 300k damage.Edited by Synapsis123 on September 30, 2024 11:37PM2 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Synapsis123 wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
Even if the set was doing 15% that's still a ton of damage for a single 5 piece set. The reality is in practice with a couple people using the set the 1 second cooldown will be hardly noticeable and the set will still perform as normal. The person you are replying to probably hasn't set foot in a trial recently.
It will literally tick half as often, with a lower tooltip, and you say the damage will be the same!
Math doesn't work like that.
I spent yesterday in Lucent HM progging unstoppable, and did sweaty Rockgrove multiple times over the weekend, so yes I have set foot in a trial recently.
So you think in practice you were getting an azureblight tick every .5 seconds on live? In a realistic situation do you think that was actually happening? Thats why things need to be tested. We don't just fabricate numbers to try and determine reality.
Yes. We were.
That's why I said minor damage loss. Because there are situations where you will get lucky and get multiple in a row like that. This is purely anecdotal though. That's why it you need to look at it on average.
what are you talking about lol. you dont get lucky, it is exactly as it is expected to behave. its 3 targets. bahsei stacks build to 20 and explode, damaging bahsei, and 2 other abombinations get hit. so 3 hits every 0.5s is expected because there are 3 things to be hit.
Lets say I take you at your word and this was actually happening all the time in practice, you don't see any problem with a set adding 150k dps in a boss fight?
We do to an extent, but hard nerfs when there's class imbalance without the set aren't the answer.1 -
Synapsis123✭✭✭✭✭Synapsis123 wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
Even if the set was doing 15% that's still a ton of damage for a single 5 piece set. The reality is in practice with a couple people using the set the 1 second cooldown will be hardly noticeable and the set will still perform as normal. The person you are replying to probably hasn't set foot in a trial recently.
It will literally tick half as often, with a lower tooltip, and you say the damage will be the same!
Math doesn't work like that.
I spent yesterday in Lucent HM progging unstoppable, and did sweaty Rockgrove multiple times over the weekend, so yes I have set foot in a trial recently.
So you think in practice you were getting an azureblight tick every .5 seconds on live? In a realistic situation do you think that was actually happening? Thats why things need to be tested. We don't just fabricate numbers to try and determine reality.
Yes. We were.
That's why I said minor damage loss. Because there are situations where you will get lucky and get multiple in a row like that. This is purely anecdotal though. That's why it you need to look at it on average.
what are you talking about lol. you dont get lucky, it is exactly as it is expected to behave. its 3 targets. bahsei stacks build to 20 and explode, damaging bahsei, and 2 other abombinations get hit. so 3 hits every 0.5s is expected because there are 3 things to be hit.
Lets say I take you at your word and this was actually happening all the time in practice, you don't see any problem with a set adding 150k dps in a boss fight?
We do to an extent, but hard nerfs when there's class imbalance without the set aren't the answer.
I was told arcanists aren't the meta multiple times in this thread and I was wrong about it despite the leaderboard scores. It should be fine. In fact, one person told me arcanists are actually falling out of the meta.2 -
baconaura✭✭✭Synapsis123 wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
Even if the set was doing 15% that's still a ton of damage for a single 5 piece set. The reality is in practice with a couple people using the set the 1 second cooldown will be hardly noticeable and the set will still perform as normal. The person you are replying to probably hasn't set foot in a trial recently.
It will literally tick half as often, with a lower tooltip, and you say the damage will be the same!
Math doesn't work like that.
I spent yesterday in Lucent HM progging unstoppable, and did sweaty Rockgrove multiple times over the weekend, so yes I have set foot in a trial recently.
So you think in practice you were getting an azureblight tick every .5 seconds on live? In a realistic situation do you think that was actually happening? Thats why things need to be tested. We don't just fabricate numbers to try and determine reality.
Yes. We were.
That's why I said minor damage loss. Because there are situations where you will get lucky and get multiple in a row like that. This is purely anecdotal though. That's why it you need to look at it on average.
what are you talking about lol. you dont get lucky, it is exactly as it is expected to behave. its 3 targets. bahsei stacks build to 20 and explode, damaging bahsei, and 2 other abombinations get hit. so 3 hits every 0.5s is expected because there are 3 things to be hit.
Lets say I take you at your word and this was actually happening all the time in practice, you don't see any problem with a set adding 150k dps in a boss fight?
its not 150kdps per person, its for the group, because its not always going to be the same person getting to proc the explosion. its more like divided by 5 or 6 because thats around the fastest you would be able to build the 20 stacks.
so closer to like 25-30k dps per person. fatecarver alone is going to be higher than that. maybe dk standard will be 17-20k dps.
believe it or not, there is a point where 8 people in azure is not any better than 6 people.
Edited by baconaura on September 30, 2024 11:41PM1 -
Synapsis123✭✭✭✭✭Synapsis123 wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »FionaFlute wrote: »The tick rate was nerfed? OH NO! Now it'll only do 30% of your damage instead of 60%!
It does not do 60% of damage. Idk where you're getting that idea.
I'm looking at the logs of the top leaderboard score runs. During trash pulls it does over 60% of the damage.
Trash pulls are, of course, representative of the whole trial.
Trash pulls are part of the trial.
Even in trash, if it was doing 60% of the damage it will now do 15%. Which is less than just using coral deadly for arcs, or Sul Xan something for other classes.
On bosses it was doing about 16% of the damage (in a multi target fight) so it will do 4-5% now. No point using it, coral buffed beam does more.
Oh, it only does 15% now? Do you have logs from the PTS or are those baseless claims with imaginary numbers?
Even if the set was doing 15% that's still a ton of damage for a single 5 piece set. The reality is in practice with a couple people using the set the 1 second cooldown will be hardly noticeable and the set will still perform as normal. The person you are replying to probably hasn't set foot in a trial recently.
It will literally tick half as often, with a lower tooltip, and you say the damage will be the same!
Math doesn't work like that.
I spent yesterday in Lucent HM progging unstoppable, and did sweaty Rockgrove multiple times over the weekend, so yes I have set foot in a trial recently.
So you think in practice you were getting an azureblight tick every .5 seconds on live? In a realistic situation do you think that was actually happening? Thats why things need to be tested. We don't just fabricate numbers to try and determine reality.
Yes. We were.
That's why I said minor damage loss. Because there are situations where you will get lucky and get multiple in a row like that. This is purely anecdotal though. That's why it you need to look at it on average.
what are you talking about lol. you dont get lucky, it is exactly as it is expected to behave. its 3 targets. bahsei stacks build to 20 and explode, damaging bahsei, and 2 other abombinations get hit. so 3 hits every 0.5s is expected because there are 3 things to be hit.
Lets say I take you at your word and this was actually happening all the time in practice, you don't see any problem with a set adding 150k dps in a boss fight?
its not 150kdps per person, its for the group, because its not always going to be the same person getting to proc the explosion. its more like divided by 5 or 6 because thats around the fastest you would be able to build the 20 stacks.
so closer to like 25-30k dps per person. fatecarver alone is going to be higher than that. maybe dk standard will be 17-20k dps.
If that is true then the cooldown shouldn't matter because its not always the same person proccing it.
So you think sets should do 30% more damage than an ultimate ability?Edited by Synapsis123 on September 30, 2024 11:44PM2
This discussion has been closed.