I hope we get a high elf female as a companion soon

SatanicSister

I can barely stand high elves, so I am pretty certain, I won't be liking Tanlorin (or any other altmer companion we might get in the future) anyway. I might be wrong though, certainly hope so.

As for their gender and all that, I do hope they won't be just a walking talking stereotype of gender neutral person (I do hate to judge a book by it's cover but their appearance has me a little worried). But I guess we'll wait and see.

spartaxoxo

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Are people seriously calling the Altmer "non-binary" just because she's not dressed stereotypically feminine?

ZOS has announced it in the stream this way. "Our first nonbinary Altmer".

Yikes. I hate this new trend.
I was always happy that ESO had positive, lovely gay characters, though

What new trend? We've gotten the gender, occupation, a bit about their personality, and their class for most every companion. We knew Azandar was a male arcanist, mad scientist type and fatherly before we ever got to see his quest. There were people worried fatherly meant that he'd try to parent the player character after that, but those worries turned out to be unfounded. He's just old. Anyway, Tanlorin got the exact same treatment as other companions. The way they announced companions didn't change, reactions did.

SilverBride

When I saw this thread I had no idea that they considered one of the new Companions to be "non-binary" because there was nothing in the write up I saw mentioning that. I guess it was just announced in the live stream that not everyone watches. I don't understand why this was left out of the written announcement if it was a significant part of who this Companion is.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The way they announced companions didn't change, reactions did.

When I saw this thread I had no idea that they considered one of the new Companions to be "non-binary" because there was nothing in the write up I saw mentioning that. I guess it was just announced in the live stream that not everyone watches. I don't understand why this was left out of the written announcement if it was a significant part of who this Companion is.

Because they aren't treating it like a big deal. They just casually mentioned the gender while discussing a little biographical information about Tanlorin in the stream. The same as they always have.

SilverBride

I never watch the live streams. I prefer to wait and see things in writing.

Wolfkeks

RMW wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Thank you.

I'll wait and see how the companion is designed, how the dialogues look, etc. I'd be disappointed if one single personality aspect is made the big focus - one-dimensional characters are rarely interesting. Also, I found the gay characters in ESO usually to be well-written; they're just there, part of the world, and it was never made a big announcement. I especially liked the subtlety and normalness about it. Then again, writing in the past few years has become increasingly unsubtle, characters sometimes really, really stereotypical, so who knows...

Can't remember if this was said by the writer or during the stream (can check this out later, pretty sure it's from the stream) but the quest for Tanlorin

will be more mischievous, the story will have something to do with their unique relationship to magic, ergo the dk/soulmagic mix and them being part of a thief organisation called the Garland Ring

while Zen story

seems to be more centered around devotion and redemption and an acient order of Khajiit priests who use necro abilities to redeem fallen soldiers and he is pulled from a different time period and something regarding Azura

-put it in spoilers just in case but they gave us some pointers as to where their stories will be going

so far both look interesting.

Though I'm still waiting for an assassin companion

It's from the stream. Both stories sound interesting. I like

thief characters and the thief guild was a fund dlc

so I hope it will be something similar. But gonna be honest the

potential time travel

sounds intriguing ngl.

spartaxoxo

WitchyKiki wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Are people seriously calling the Altmer "non-binary" just because she's not dressed stereotypically feminine?

ZOS has announced it in the stream this way. "Our first nonbinary Altmer".

Yikes. I hate this new trend.
I was always happy that ESO had positive, lovely gay characters, though

The way they announced companions didn't change, reactions did.

[snip]

I am well aware that non-binary people are discriminated against, and even the mere mention of them is enough to get some people up in arms.

I can't change their minds, and even if I could it's not the place to do it.

What I can do is make the factual point that Tanlorin was NOT treated differently to the way companions have been spoken about in the past. That such characters have been part of the Elder Scrolls for decades. And that the Elder Scrolls has been inclusive of LGBT characters for a very long time.

If the Elder Scrolls has operated the same way for 20 years and then some players come along and demand they change, who's the one really trying to force their beliefs on others?

[edited to remove quote]

Cazador

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Are people seriously calling the Altmer "non-binary" just because she's not dressed stereotypically feminine?

ZOS has announced it in the stream this way. "Our first nonbinary Altmer".

Yikes. I hate this new trend.
I was always happy that ESO had positive, lovely gay characters, though

What new trend? We've gotten the gender, occupation, a bit about their personality, and their class for most every companion. We knew Azandar was a male arcanist, mad scientist type and fatherly before we ever got to see his quest. There were people worried fatherly meant that he'd try to parent the player character after that, but those worries turned out to be unfounded. He's just old. Anyway, Tanlorin got the exact same treatment as other companions. The way they announced companions didn't change, reactions did.

100% this. I don't remember this being an issue in 2018 when we got a trans character and Argonians being able to switch sexes. It really only seems to have become an issue in the last couple years.

WitchyKiki

spartaxoxo wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Are people seriously calling the Altmer "non-binary" just because she's not dressed stereotypically feminine?

ZOS has announced it in the stream this way. "Our first nonbinary Altmer".

Yikes. I hate this new trend.
I was always happy that ESO had positive, lovely gay characters, though

The way they announced companions didn't change, reactions did.

[snip]

I am well aware that non-binary people are discriminated against, and even the mere mention of them is enough to get some people up in arms.

I can't change their minds, and even if I could it's not the place to do it.

What I can do is make the factual point that Tanlorin was NOT treated differently to the way companions have been spoken about in the past. That such characters have been part of the Elder Scrolls for decades. And that the Elder Scrolls has always inclusive of LGBT characters for a very long time.

If the Elder Scrolls has operated the same way for 20 years and then some players come along and demand they change, who's the one really trying to force their beliefs on others?

Non-binaries have existed within ESO and have never had special mentions in streams, High Isle and Summerset having such characters. This whole announcement was to score points with the current trend. Tanloirn (?) is not the first one.

Its also not discrimination to express your opinions on gender theory in regards to non-binaries. To give you some perspective, gender neutral terms severely clash with some cultures and languages, not everyone is looking to hurt people for their identities. I personally would never go out of my way to hurt someone, but I also wont adopt a way of thinking that clashes with my own beliefs. I hope that gives you some perspective.

[edited to remove quote]

Syldras

spartaxoxo wrote: »

What new trend?

In the end, it's a subjective interpretation. That they announced Tanlorin as nonbinary is, that's correct, a part of the character description. What's subjective is whether they did it in a way that made it stand out or not.

I can understand that it drew attention because it was the very first thing they said when they got into detail about the new companions. Also, both companions were not described in the same manner. I've just checked it in the video again. The character descriptions start with:
"Tanlorin, who is our first nonbinary Altmer." (at 1:10:27)
"Lastly, we have Zerith-dar. He is a necromancer Khajiit." (at 1:12:40)

Obviously, Zerith-dar is a necromancer, while Tanlorin is a nonbinary...

But seriously: They didn't say "male Khajiit", but just said "he". They could have just called Tanlorin "they" without naming their gender, such as they did with Zerith-dar. I, personally, don't want to draw conclusions because I can't be 100% sure whether it was a coincidence or intentional. But I can understand that this got people's attention and made some wary because it looks like putting a focus on that one aspect.

For comparison: I would have found it cringe too, if they announced Isobel as "Isobel is our first lesbian Breton." (And yes, I know that gender and sexual orientation aren't the same, but it's both nothing I'd like to see a character description starting with, as it makes it sounds like this was the main aspect of a character - which is, in my opinion, bad and cliché writing.)

That said, I'll wait and see.

spartaxoxo

WitchyKiki wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Are people seriously calling the Altmer "non-binary" just because she's not dressed stereotypically feminine?

ZOS has announced it in the stream this way. "Our first nonbinary Altmer".

Yikes. I hate this new trend.
I was always happy that ESO had positive, lovely gay characters, though

The way they announced companions didn't change, reactions did.

[snip]

I am well aware that non-binary people are discriminated against, and even the mere mention of them is enough to get some people up in arms.

I can't change their minds, and even if I could it's not the place to do it.

What I can do is make the factual point that Tanlorin was NOT treated differently to the way companions have been spoken about in the past. That such characters have been part of the Elder Scrolls for decades. And that the Elder Scrolls has always inclusive of LGBT characters for a very long time.

If the Elder Scrolls has operated the same way for 20 years and then some players come along and demand they change, who's the one really trying to force their beliefs on others?

Non-binaries have existed within ESO and have never had special mentions in streams, High Isle and Summerset having such characters. This whole announcement was to score points with the current trend. Tanloirn (?) is not the first one.

Its also not discrimination to express your opinions on gender theory in regards to non-binaries. To give you some perspective, gender neutral terms severely clash with some cultures and languages, not everyone is looking to hurt people for their identities. I personally would never go out of my way to hurt someone, but I also wont adopt a way of thinking that clashes with my own beliefs. I hope that gives you some perspective.

Pretty much every companion has had their gender announced on stream or interview. When Mirri was described as a stab you in the back kind of gal, nobody took issue with this. When Azandar was announced as male, because people asked for more males, the developers were thanked and people were excited for male companions. When Tanlorin was stated to be non-binary, some of the community acted brand new.

It is clear discrimination that Tanlorin's gender being casually described is bad, but Mirri and Azandar's being described is good.

[edited to remove quote]

spartaxoxo

Cazador wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Are people seriously calling the Altmer "non-binary" just because she's not dressed stereotypically feminine?

ZOS has announced it in the stream this way. "Our first nonbinary Altmer".

Yikes. I hate this new trend.
I was always happy that ESO had positive, lovely gay characters, though

What new trend? We've gotten the gender, occupation, a bit about their personality, and their class for most every companion. We knew Azandar was a male arcanist, mad scientist type and fatherly before we ever got to see his quest. There were people worried fatherly meant that he'd try to parent the player character after that, but those worries turned out to be unfounded. He's just old. Anyway, Tanlorin got the exact same treatment as other companions. The way they announced companions didn't change, reactions did.

100% this. I don't remember this being an issue in 2018 when we got a trans character and Argonians being able to switch sexes. It really only seems to have become an issue in the last couple years.

Absolutely. We can't even play an Elder Scrolls game these days. Like I wouldn't be surprised if I have had more conversations about gender in the Scrolls games in the past few days than the past 20 years combined. And we literally know nothing about the character. Nobody has even played it yet.

Wolfkeks

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Cazador wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Are people seriously calling the Altmer "non-binary" just because she's not dressed stereotypically feminine?

ZOS has announced it in the stream this way. "Our first nonbinary Altmer".

Yikes. I hate this new trend.
I was always happy that ESO had positive, lovely gay characters, though

What new trend? We've gotten the gender, occupation, a bit about their personality, and their class for most every companion. We knew Azandar was a male arcanist, mad scientist type and fatherly before we ever got to see his quest. There were people worried fatherly meant that he'd try to parent the player character after that, but those worries turned out to be unfounded. He's just old. Anyway, Tanlorin got the exact same treatment as other companions. The way they announced companions didn't change, reactions did.

100% this. I don't remember this being an issue in 2018 when we got a trans character and Argonians being able to switch sexes. It really only seems to have become an issue in the last couple years.

Absolutely. We can't even play an Elder Scrolls game these days. Like I wouldn't be surprised if I have had more conversations about gender in the Scrolls games in the past few days than the past 20 years combined. And we literally know nothing about the character. Nobody has even played it yet.

Summed it up perfectly. Have not expected this kind of backlash over one sentence in a stream. Monday is PTS day and then every one can see what the story is about and make up their mind.

Monte_Cristo

Syldras wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

What new trend?

For comparison: I would have found it cringe too, if they announced Isobel as "Isobel is our first lesbian Breton." (And yes, I know that gender and sexual orientation aren't the same, but it's both nothing I'd like to see a character description starting with, as it makes it sounds like this was the main aspect of a character - which is, in my opinion, bad and cliché writing.)

That said, I'll wait and see.

Wouldn't Nicolene have been the game's first lesbian Breton?

Syldras

Monte_Cristo wrote: »

Wouldn't Nicolene have been the game's first lesbian Breton?

Not sure if Nicolene or whether there's another lesbian Breton in the basegame (there are so many gay and lesbian characters in the game since the beginning, all included very naturally, which I like very much). But anyway, it was just an example. I'd dislike it if they described an npc and called them gay or lesbian the very first thing, because it looks like they think this was the main aspect of a character. It's the same in real life, actually: I know I would have my doubts about a friend when they introduced me as their "gay friend" or used that as the first part of a description of me. Who wants to be "the gay guy", really? It's a tiny fact about a person, like shoe size or eye color. I'd rather be remembered by my interests, hobbies, talents or deeds.

spartaxoxo

Wolfkeks wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Cazador wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Are people seriously calling the Altmer "non-binary" just because she's not dressed stereotypically feminine?

ZOS has announced it in the stream this way. "Our first nonbinary Altmer".

Yikes. I hate this new trend.
I was always happy that ESO had positive, lovely gay characters, though

What new trend? We've gotten the gender, occupation, a bit about their personality, and their class for most every companion. We knew Azandar was a male arcanist, mad scientist type and fatherly before we ever got to see his quest. There were people worried fatherly meant that he'd try to parent the player character after that, but those worries turned out to be unfounded. He's just old. Anyway, Tanlorin got the exact same treatment as other companions. The way they announced companions didn't change, reactions did.

100% this. I don't remember this being an issue in 2018 when we got a trans character and Argonians being able to switch sexes. It really only seems to have become an issue in the last couple years.

Absolutely. We can't even play an Elder Scrolls game these days. Like I wouldn't be surprised if I have had more conversations about gender in the Scrolls games in the past few days than the past 20 years combined. And we literally know nothing about the character. Nobody has even played it yet.

Summed it up perfectly. Have not expected this kind of backlash over one sentence in a stream. Monday is PTS day and then every one can see what the story is about and make up their mind.

Honestly, a lot of people have already decided they dislike it. So, even a well-written story probably won't be enough.

LaintalAy

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Are people seriously calling the Altmer "non-binary" just because she's not dressed stereotypically feminine? Really?

Don't insult women by claiming that having short hair and looking tough means you aren't a woman. Women can be tough and have short hair and still be 100% women.

(Wish she had a nicer hairstyle, though, no matter what length it is.)

My own prejudices forced me to assume that the original Tanlorin was born male.

Syldras

Let me make a general statement.

There's a saying I hated when I was younger: "You can't change people, you can only change yourself."

It took me a while to understand that it doesn't mean to just accept hostile behaviour or even give things up to stay under the radar. A thought I absolutely hated - I'm a stubborn person, and I was even more stubborn when I was younger (if you think I'm combative now, you wouldn't have wanted to meet me when I was 16). Backing down? Never!

But with passing years I indeed understood that one cannot change people's worldview against their will. It's not possible to force a change. It is not possible to force understanding. Forcing will only lead to even more opposition. Is it fair? Of course not. But it's the truth. People actually have to understand things and develop a different opinion themselves. And sometimes, there will always be different worldviews, opinions, beliefs (depending on topic), so there will never be a consensus.

The only thing one can do is changing one's attitude towards the opinions and utterings of other people. Not to take things to heart.

I'm not saying it's easy for everyone. For some it might be even harder. Some life factors make it even worse. But in the end it's the only thing one can do, I'm afraid. No matter what one gets bashed for. Same goes for being perceived wrongly by others - for example also by being judged based on stereotypes (and everything can be a factor leading to this - no matter if gender, sex, sexual orientation, nationality, ethnicity, physical appearance,... the list is endless). We just can't change other people's thoughts, that's a fact, whether we like it or not.

I'm not saying we should accept bigotry. But change takes time and education. And sometimes opinions will always be opposing. We can't rely on everyone else being nice, we also have to develop emotional resistance and resilience. It might be hard, but it can be learned.

I wish everyone who needs it good luck with it. It doesn't even matter if we have the same opinion or world view.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here

Pelanora

Ha they should go full le Guin 'left hand of darkness' and do a companion that shifts fully from male to female to male for months at a time each shift.

Idelise

Question, ZOS team: why does it tell me I don't have permission to do that when I try to agree with certain posts via reaction?

Wolfkeks

Idelise wrote: »

Question, ZOS team: why does it tell me I don't have permission to do that when I try to agree with certain posts via reaction?

Could be that the posts were just removed or edited as you clicked on the agree button. The "you have no permission to do that" button also comes up when a topic gets deleted or locked while you are still writing.

Idelise

Wolfkeks wrote: »

Idelise wrote: »

Question, ZOS team: why does it tell me I don't have permission to do that when I try to agree with certain posts via reaction?

Could be that the posts were just removed or edited as you clicked on the agree button. The "you have no permission to do that" button also comes up when a topic gets deleted or locked while you are still writing.

Yeah it's what it was. I checked with pretty much all posts on this page - after refreshing, ones I couldn't react to were the ones that were removed.

SilverBride

I've not said much on this subject but I just want to express that I am not happy with the direction being taken with this Companion for 2 reasons.

First of all I don't like assigning labels to people, not even in game NPCs. What matters to me is what values they hold and how they treat others.

Second I do not like how a concept that is not widely accepted as even existing is being used, and how it was the very first thing said about this Companion in the stream.

Syldras

The discussion about labels (whether they are useful or harmful and which purposes they might serve) has been deleted as well (as "off-topic", I guess). It's a pity since I had the impression people found it interesting. And while not absolutely obviously related to ESO at first glance, it did show people's different opinions, which certainly also play a role when it comes to good companion design. If our opinions even matter to ZOS.

And labels isn't a topic about gender only. I mean all kind of labels. Do we want to personal aspects of companions treated as labels in game, or do we want to see them presented or treated as a normal aspect not worth a special mention?

In case it's unclear what I mean: Bastian has lactose intolerance. It shows in his dislike for cheese and he mentions it shortly in one of his houseguest lines. This is what I perceive as treating something normally. Labelling, for me, would have meant introducing him as "our first lactose intolerant Imperial"

ZOS_Icy

Greetings all,

After further review of this thread we have removed some off-topic posts. While we understand that you may have interest in other topics, we ask that threads remain focused on ESO.

Thank you for your understanding.

LaintalAy

SilverBride wrote: »

I've not said much on this subject but I just want to express that I am not happy with the direction being taken with this Companion for 2 reasons.

First of all I don't like assigning labels to people, not even in game NPCs. What matters to me is what values they hold and how they treat others.

Second I do not like how a concept that is not widely accepted as even existing is being used, and how it was the very first thing said about this Companion in the stream.

The short answer is that players who feel comfortable wearing that label have money to spend.

In reality, this companion wont be any more confronting than Mirri, unless they continually remind us of their social status.
I won't use Mirri because of the continual 'street kid' related comments that she makes. I can only just put up with the continual 'big family' references from the other one.

There's backstory and then there's boredom and annoyance.

Syldras

LaintalAy wrote: »

In reality, this companion wont be any more confronting than Mirri, unless they continually remind us of their social status.
I won't use Mirri because of the continual 'street kid' related comments that she makes. I can only just put up with the continual 'big family' references from the other one.

It's the other way round Ember is the street kid (who also talks about fish biscuits all the time, what ever a fish bisquit is), Mirri is the Hlaalu with, I don't know, as many sibling as the common opossum or so.

Then we have Azandar. His main personality aspect seems to be tea I really like Azandar nonetheless, btw.

What I generally don't like is how ZOS tends to focus on one single aspect of a character so often. It's like they give every character 5 atrributes or so, with one they focus on even more, and that's it.

Wolfkeks

Syldras wrote: »

Then we have Azandar. His main personality aspect seems to be tea I really like Azandar nonetheless, btw.

And his mushroom hatred 🍄

Erickson9610

I think it would be worthwhile to revisit some races for Companions. I'm looking forward to meeting Tanlorin, but other people wanted a different archetype for a High Elf character.

That's fine — I tolerated Ember, and I'm thrilled we get to meet another Khajiit character who hopefully fits my playstyles better than Ember does. Maybe we'll get another High Elf in a year or two for those people who wanted a different kind of Altmer?