ZOS please work on the in game economy

sarahthes

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

One thing is for sure, there is significantly less gold in the game, and it is not being redistributed as much as it was before either.

Whaaaaadd?

<shakes his head in disbelief>

How could you possibly know that? Did it just disappear into thin air?

And the lessed gold is not redistributed? As in some entity collects everything and distributes everything among the players? What? Is ESO communism all of a sudden?

Here is a dump of realism for everyone:
What we see right now is just plain capitalism 101. There was never any inflation. Just a biiiiiiig speculation bubble. And it finally burst.

Everyone was betting on high prices and everyone was greedy to make profits. And now everyone got kicked in the balls and has to eat their losses.

You win some, you loose some.
You win a lot. You loose a lot.
It's all the same.

It is a known fact that a large number of gold sellers got banned, as did some buyers. If you run in the right (or wrong) circles, you hear first person accounts of it. I used to do significant carry sales, and we knew our competitors encouraged buying gold in order to buy carries, in fact some of them sold it, some sold carries for cash to cut out the middleman then bought gold to pay the other 10 people involved in the carry, etc etc. This was openly discussed if you were in the right discords, with screenshots.

ZOS took direct action against a lot of these "vendors", as they should. Again, saw screenshots of ban messages. Screenshots of warnings and even people who had specific characters locked until they retrieved and sent to zos (by placing on a specific character) almost 800 million gold. Their account would be unlocked once zos had taken and deleted the gold.

If I saw screenshots of this happening to 1-2 people, I can extrapolate that this occurred across the board in the gold selling market. The evidence to back this up is that the price of buying gold with cash has gone up 5-10x what it cost back in March. Their inventories are lower, so they are charging more.

This, combined with new gold sinks, caused a lot of gold to simply be deleted from the economy, meaning that there was less gold to be moved around. In combination with a massive injection of commodities (increased supply), the system crashed.

LaintalAy

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Fair points, all. The fact remains, however, that the economy in general is finally accessible to a majority of players for the first time in a very long time. I acknowledge that it’s more difficult for you to sell big ticket items now, but understand that asking ZOS to work on the economy because a tiny percentage of players finds it harder now to sell multimillion gold items to an even tinier percentage of players sounds… a little rich to those who were previously priced out of common goods (pun fully intended).

On the one hand we have lots of players saying there aren’t enough gold sinks…and then we have this. Which is it? What is preventing certain players from earning gold?

We have “lots” of players saying there aren’t enough gold sinks? Where?

Let me do a little search.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/655406/any-plans-to-fix-inflation-in-the-economy-pc-na/p1

Hmm. Seems like people wanted another gold sink to…address the horrific inflation that was a problem at that time. I think you’ll find that players previously advocating for more gold sinks wouldn’t be doing so anymore, as prices are reasonable for a change.

Prices might be “reasonable” if you do not sell anything. Perhaps that is the issue with those like you who think that players were “priced out” of the market before. If you do not sell things to earn gold then you are going to have less to spend on guild trader purchases. The gold that gets handed out for quest rewards and such is a pittance. That’s why players spend their time farming things to sell. You are paying for the convenience of not doing it yourself. If the price goes too low, then no one will be selling and what will you do then?

I do sell things, and usually make about a million gold per week — I just don’t spend a significant amount of my game time on trading, because that cuts into time I’d rather spend doing things in game that matter to me. Your argument here is a bit tautological. If I spend more of my time farming for things to sell, then… I don’t really need to buy those things from traders, as I already have them. My purchases mainly tend to be gold upgrade materials and the occasional motif. I farm here and there to save my gold, and supplement what I don’t have with guild trader purchases when I’m working on new builds. The previous inflation meant I just had to be more patient and wait until more upgrade mats trickled in with writs and refining, because I refused to spend 50k gold on a single Dreugh Wax. Now I can actually buy Dreugh Wax without feeling like I’m being gouged.

Wow, I do sell a lot and it I am not nearly getting that amount of sales. Maybe 50-100k per week now. However, I think the last time I checked on PS mats were about 2k each, before prices fell. I never buy them though since daily crafting writs are quick and easy (even on console) and I get plenty that way, except for housing mats.

Yes. That was an insightful post.
I gave an 'Insightful' badge as a reward for that insight.

Zodiarkslayer

sarahthes wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

One thing is for sure, there is significantly less gold in the game, and it is not being redistributed as much as it was before either.

Whaaaaadd?

<shakes his head in disbelief>

How could you possibly know that? Did it just disappear into thin air?

And the lessed gold is not redistributed? As in some entity collects everything and distributes everything among the players? What? Is ESO communism all of a sudden?

Here is a dump of realism for everyone:
What we see right now is just plain capitalism 101. There was never any inflation. Just a biiiiiiig speculation bubble. And it finally burst.

Everyone was betting on high prices and everyone was greedy to make profits. And now everyone got kicked in the balls and has to eat their losses.

You win some, you loose some.
You win a lot. You loose a lot.
It's all the same.

It is a known fact that a large number of gold sellers got banned, as did some buyers. If you run in the right (or wrong) circles, you hear first person accounts of it. I used to do significant carry sales, and we knew our competitors encouraged buying gold in order to buy carries, in fact some of them sold it, some sold carries for cash to cut out the middleman then bought gold to pay the other 10 people involved in the carry, etc etc. This was openly discussed if you were in the right discords, with screenshots.

ZOS took direct action against a lot of these "vendors", as they should. Again, saw screenshots of ban messages. Screenshots of warnings and even people who had specific characters locked until they retrieved and sent to zos (by placing on a specific character) almost 800 million gold. Their account would be unlocked once zos had taken and deleted the gold.

If I saw screenshots of this happening to 1-2 people, I can extrapolate that this occurred across the board in the gold selling market. The evidence to back this up is that the price of buying gold with cash has gone up 5-10x what it cost back in March. Their inventories are lower, so they are charging more.

This, combined with new gold sinks, caused a lot of gold to simply be deleted from the economy, meaning that there was less gold to be moved around. In combination with a massive injection of commodities (increased supply), the system crashed.

These bans have been discussed in my guild alliance's discord as well. I am a member of a large european alliance. Every member guilds makes trader bids. So yeah, that was a topic, too.
However, while the intel you provide is correct, your interpretation is a little flawed.

1) The accounts that were banned are, more often than not, not the accounts that store the profits from these illicits actions stored. As you alluded.
Accounts got banned. The gold remained.
2) The price tags on these illegal services is proportionate to the threat level accompanying the transaction. That's the case for every criminal enterprise, btw. Digital or analog.
Interpreting higher prices for gold purchases as indication of lack of gold in game, is ignoring the much more reasonable much less far fetched explanation, that the criminals feel the pressure and already had to cut some losses.
3) It is still very very wrong to assume that all the gold in game is demanding all the goods at any given time.
Most gold in game is kept in strategic reserve by trading guilds. Gold that is not budgeted to be used for buying commodities and other goods (even startegic investments), but for trader bids and "trading wars". Although the latter almost never happens any more.
The goddess Fortuna favours the prepared, not the righteous.
4) That prices of goods in ESO are determined by the total amount of gold is a fantasy. Anyone who still believes in inflation in ESO is a fool and cannot comprehend what happend to the economy over the last months.

sarahthes

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

One thing is for sure, there is significantly less gold in the game, and it is not being redistributed as much as it was before either.

Whaaaaadd?

<shakes his head in disbelief>

How could you possibly know that? Did it just disappear into thin air?

And the lessed gold is not redistributed? As in some entity collects everything and distributes everything among the players? What? Is ESO communism all of a sudden?

Here is a dump of realism for everyone:
What we see right now is just plain capitalism 101. There was never any inflation. Just a biiiiiiig speculation bubble. And it finally burst.

Everyone was betting on high prices and everyone was greedy to make profits. And now everyone got kicked in the balls and has to eat their losses.

You win some, you loose some.
You win a lot. You loose a lot.
It's all the same.

It is a known fact that a large number of gold sellers got banned, as did some buyers. If you run in the right (or wrong) circles, you hear first person accounts of it. I used to do significant carry sales, and we knew our competitors encouraged buying gold in order to buy carries, in fact some of them sold it, some sold carries for cash to cut out the middleman then bought gold to pay the other 10 people involved in the carry, etc etc. This was openly discussed if you were in the right discords, with screenshots.

ZOS took direct action against a lot of these "vendors", as they should. Again, saw screenshots of ban messages. Screenshots of warnings and even people who had specific characters locked until they retrieved and sent to zos (by placing on a specific character) almost 800 million gold. Their account would be unlocked once zos had taken and deleted the gold.

If I saw screenshots of this happening to 1-2 people, I can extrapolate that this occurred across the board in the gold selling market. The evidence to back this up is that the price of buying gold with cash has gone up 5-10x what it cost back in March. Their inventories are lower, so they are charging more.

This, combined with new gold sinks, caused a lot of gold to simply be deleted from the economy, meaning that there was less gold to be moved around. In combination with a massive injection of commodities (increased supply), the system crashed.

These bans have been discussed in my guild alliance's discord as well. I am a member of a large european alliance. Every member guilds makes trader bids. So yeah, that was a topic, too.
However, while the intel you provide is correct, your interpretation is a little flawed.

1) The accounts that were banned are, more often than not, not the accounts that store the profits from these illicits actions stored. As you alluded.
Accounts got banned. The gold remained.
2) The price tags on these illegal services is proportionate to the threat level accompanying the transaction. That's the case for every criminal enterprise, btw. Digital or analog.
Interpreting higher prices for gold purchases as indication of lack of gold in game, is ignoring the much more reasonable much less far fetched explanation, that the criminals feel the pressure and already had to cut some losses.
3) It is still very very wrong to assume that all the gold in game is demanding all the goods at any given time.
Most gold in game is kept in strategic reserve by trading guilds. Gold that is not budgeted to be used for buying commodities and other goods (even startegic investments), but for trader bids and "trading wars". Although the latter almost never happens any more.
The goddess Fortuna favours the prepared, not the righteous.
4) That prices of goods in ESO are determined by the total amount of gold is a fantasy. Anyone who still believes in inflation in ESO is a fool and cannot comprehend what happend to the economy over the last months.

People are sometimes incapable if owning their mistakes and learning from it. So they cope instead, by making some abstract and incomprehensible force outside of their control responsible for their own mishaps, errors and bad luck.
It's human. And that's okay.
But it's also annoying.

1) I'm on PC NA and at least one of the major sellers had the gold traced thru multiple of their laundering accounts as well as their main, and the character lockout was on their main that had all their achievements on it. So don't assume your experience is universal.

2) Price is based on both risk and availability, and to discount availability is disingenuous.

3) I never said that?

4) I never said that either? I said it was related to the gold in circulation, which is drastically lower now, combined with the amount of commodities available for sale. It's obvious, and quantifiable, because sales are down, and listings for key indicators exploded as quantity increased, and this sales data is available for anyone with the right add-ons.

5) That comment was rude and uncalled for.

Highwayman

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

4) That prices of goods in ESO are determined by the total amount of gold is a fantasy. Anyone who still believes in inflation in ESO is a fool and cannot comprehend what happend to the economy over the last months.

M * V = P * Q

Prices are not JUST determined by the total amount of money on a macroeconomic level. Monetarists like to dismiss velocity as relatively stable so you don't hear much about it as they tend to be the ones grabbing for the mics. "Relatively stable" can be pretty unstable at times though.

I do believe this was largely your point even though you were a bit terse and sound frustrated at your attempt at explanation.

Amottica

sarahthes wrote: »

This is the result of them working on the economy.

Be careful what you wish for...

LOL. Funny how this came on the heels of the recent changes.

agelonestar

Just on the population count, as far as I'm aware ZoS does not publish population stats, so any such information is derived from multiple other sources.

The site: https://mmo-population.com/r/elderscrollsonline seems fairly accurate for other games, so while I would take the stats with a small pinch of salt I wouldn't ignore them entirely.

Stats across multiple sources seem to say broadly the same thing right now: ESO has IRO 24m subscribers / players, and currently only around 14k daily count (a low daily count through the Summer months). The decline in the daily count would seem to correspond with the start of the fall in prices in-game and this makes sense, because having played for all of the ten years that's what we tend to see - prices drop when the pop count falls away, and rise again when it's busy in-game.

LikiLoki

So, we are in for another blow to the economy. The number of furniture materials will be increased

Northwold

Highwayman wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

4) That prices of goods in ESO are determined by the total amount of gold is a fantasy. Anyone who still believes in inflation in ESO is a fool and cannot comprehend what happend to the economy over the last months.

M * V = P * Q

Prices are not JUST determined by the total amount of money on a macroeconomic level. Monetarists like to dismiss velocity as relatively stable so you don't hear much about it as they tend to be the ones grabbing for the mics. "Relatively stable" can be pretty unstable at times though.

I do believe this was largely your point even though you were a bit terse and sound frustrated at your attempt at explanation.

Also bear in mind that what "M" is, ie the definition of money, is a hot topic in the real world with multiple measures. In ESO terms, the gold of people who stash their money in their accounts and do nothing with it, like dragons sitting on piles of treasure, is not really a relevant part of the money supply in any event.

Aurielle

LikiLoki wrote: »

So, we are in for another blow to the economy. The number of furniture materials will be increased

This will be very good for people who enjoy housing, no?

coop500

Aurielle wrote: »

LikiLoki wrote: »

So, we are in for another blow to the economy. The number of furniture materials will be increased

This will be very good for people who enjoy housing, no?

It is but people who just wanna sell these mats will end up having to sell them for less, but they'll get more TO sell at a time so...

WitchyKiki

LikiLoki wrote: »

So, we are in for another blow to the economy. The number of furniture materials will be increased

In yesterdays stream they mentioned that furnishing materials will see an increased drop rate in the upcoming patch.

Aurielle

coop500 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

LikiLoki wrote: »

So, we are in for another blow to the economy. The number of furniture materials will be increased

This will be very good for people who enjoy housing, no?

It is but people who just wanna sell these mats will end up having to sell them for less, but they'll get more TO sell at a time so...

People who do housing have been complaining for a very long time now that housing mats are so rare and ridiculously expensive in guild traders. I’m glad that they’ll be able to enjoy housing now without being nickled and dimed in the process. 👍

sarahthes

Right now I am not bothering to sell materials and I will continue to not sell them until the price improves. I am stockpiling the ones I farm for my own use which means I am also not buying materials. The only thing I buy is two stacks of tripots a week from my guild trader which basically covers my quota for the week.

Economy isn't worth participating in right now.

s3dulo

The entire decentralized Guild economy is ridiculous. It needs to be overhauled. Thankfully TTC exists. I used to play a little game called City of Heroes which has a centralized auction system that works incredibly well. I would love to see that here. I know it will never happen, though.

Necrotech_Master

s3dulo wrote: »

The entire decentralized Guild economy is ridiculous. It needs to be overhauled. Thankfully TTC exists. I used to play a little game called City of Heroes which has a centralized auction system that works incredibly well. I would love to see that here. I know it will never happen, though.

the auction house system in that game was super easy to make money on lol, i remember i did it all the time

i never "flipped" stuff, but to save myself listing fees i never listed anything for more than 1 inf, but because it was basically a blind system, i would still in 99% of cases make what around what the "last 5 sold" prices showed, so when an item did get cornered/monopolized/flipped and the price shot up to 10x what it was the day before, i made bank, but i basically never bought anything

LikiLoki

Aurielle wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

LikiLoki wrote: »

So, we are in for another blow to the economy. The number of furniture materials will be increased

This will be very good for people who enjoy housing, no?

It is but people who just wanna sell these mats will end up having to sell them for less, but they'll get more TO sell at a time so...

People who do housing have been complaining for a very long time now that housing mats are so rare and ridiculously expensive in guild traders. I’m glad that they’ll be able to enjoy housing now without being nickled and dimed in the process. 👍

It is important that their number is not excessive. After all, if their price drops to 5 gold, they will stop selling, because they will turn into "garbage" that will be destroyed. Then artisans will not be able to purchase materials

Necrotech_Master

LikiLoki wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

LikiLoki wrote: »

So, we are in for another blow to the economy. The number of furniture materials will be increased

This will be very good for people who enjoy housing, no?

It is but people who just wanna sell these mats will end up having to sell them for less, but they'll get more TO sell at a time so...

People who do housing have been complaining for a very long time now that housing mats are so rare and ridiculously expensive in guild traders. I’m glad that they’ll be able to enjoy housing now without being nickled and dimed in the process. 👍

It is important that their number is not excessive. After all, if their price drops to 5 gold, they will stop selling, because they will turn into "garbage" that will be destroyed. Then artisans will not be able to purchase materials

if the price drops that low, most likely the people wanting the material will be able to earn enough on their own they wont have to buy it

nobody is "destroying" other mats unless they dont have a craft bag likely, why i have like 20k ruby ingots, ruby wood, ruby leather, etc because i get far more than i use or sell

CrashTest

The rapid decline in prices on PCNA has slowed, but I think it's still too inflated.

It's funny that there are people hoarding stuff to sell hoping for prices to go up again. If prices go up again, what do you think is going to happen when you all flood the market with all your stuff?

sarahthes

CrashTest wrote: »

The rapid decline in prices on PCNA has slowed, but I think it's still too inflated.

It's funny that there are people hoarding stuff to sell hoping for prices to go up again. If prices go up again, what do you think is going to happen when you all flood the market with all your stuff?

I'm not hoarding. It's just not worth my time to sell anymore.

Heren

LikiLoki wrote: »

It is important that their number is not excessive. After all, if their price drops to 5 gold, they will stop selling, because they will turn into "garbage" that will be destroyed. Then artisans will not be able to purchase materials

That's just your opinion, and most likely a bad one : there will most likely people who sell everything as long as the price is above 0.

And if, and that's a very unlikely if, no-one end up selling these mats because their number is excessive, that just mean no-one need to buy them because... their number is excessive. So yeah, artisans will not be able to purchase these mats, but at the same time they won't need to, according to your premise.

MidniteOwl1913

PSNA things priced at rock bottom don't sell. I don't buy mats and I don't sell them so I can't comment on those.

I sell armor and weapons that I mostly get from cryo dailies. Cryo stuff usually sells well but recently that isn't the case. I usually get about 50k-100k profit and out of that I have to pay my guild dues about 40k. I'm not getting rich on this. I'm not greedy. And honestly I think I'm done with trading. It's just not worth the effort anymore. Too little reward for too much time spent.

Necrotech_Master

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

PSNA things priced at rock bottom don't sell. I don't buy mats and I don't sell them so I can't comment on those.

I sell armor and weapons that I mostly get from cryo dailies. Cryo stuff usually sells well but recently that isn't the case. I usually get about 50k-100k profit and out of that I have to pay my guild dues about 40k. I'm not getting rich on this. I'm not greedy. And honestly I think I'm done with trading. It's just not worth the effort anymore. Too little reward for too much time spent.

40k dues for the guild to me is highway robbery, if i were in your situation, i agree trading would not be worth it

i only join guilds that dont require dues for trading

katanagirl1

WitchyKiki wrote: »

LikiLoki wrote: »

So, we are in for another blow to the economy. The number of furniture materials will be increased

In yesterdays stream they mentioned that furnishing materials will see an increased drop rate in the upcoming patch.

I don’t watch those things so thanks for mentioning it.

That is very good news for someone who farms everything!

coop500

Aurielle wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

LikiLoki wrote: »

So, we are in for another blow to the economy. The number of furniture materials will be increased

This will be very good for people who enjoy housing, no?

It is but people who just wanna sell these mats will end up having to sell them for less, but they'll get more TO sell at a time so...

People who do housing have been complaining for a very long time now that housing mats are so rare and ridiculously expensive in guild traders. I’m glad that they’ll be able to enjoy housing now without being nickled and dimed in the process. 👍

Agreed, this is a GOOD change.

Cheveyo

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

PSNA things priced at rock bottom don't sell. I don't buy mats and I don't sell them so I can't comment on those.

I sell armor and weapons that I mostly get from cryo dailies. Cryo stuff usually sells well but recently that isn't the case. I usually get about 50k-100k profit and out of that I have to pay my guild dues about 40k. I'm not getting rich on this. I'm not greedy. And honestly I think I'm done with trading. It's just not worth the effort anymore. Too little reward for too much time spent.

Maybe they don't sell because people are finally fed up enough with the current way the market works that they've finally given up on using it.

I refuse to use the system, myself, unless I absolutely have to. And even then, using it usually causes me to become so frustrated with the game that I take a few months off from playing.

A global auction house would cause me to start using it. Until then, I just pretend the guild traders don't exist.

daim

sarahthes wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

The rapid decline in prices on PCNA has slowed, but I think it's still too inflated.

It's funny that there are people hoarding stuff to sell hoping for prices to go up again. If prices go up again, what do you think is going to happen when you all flood the market with all your stuff?

I'm not hoarding. It's just not worth my time to sell anymore.

Same here. Its not worth the time anymore. I keep some rarities on sale though.

wolfie1.0.

CrashTest wrote: »

The rapid decline in prices on PCNA has slowed, but I think it's still too inflated.

It's funny that there are people hoarding stuff to sell hoping for prices to go up again. If prices go up again, what do you think is going to happen when you all flood the market with all your stuff?

I don't "hoard" Alkahest for future sales. I let it sit in my craftbag because it won't sell.

The craft bag was a stop gap measure that should never have been implemented and is and always has been bad on the economy.

Furniture is the mat sink that gear reconstruction should be.

Pevey

Have you tried playing the game as a crafter and not having the craft bag? There are just too many crafting materials for it to be feasible.

CrashTest

ZOS is doing a great job at gutting inflation. Looking forward to the next events!