Dungeon quests

AlnilamE

LaintalAy wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

The original intention of random dungeons is:

• Experience in team play
• Experience with random player levels
• Experience in multiple and varied boss encounters
• Skill point award
• Acheivement Award
• In-game progression

The intention of the RANDOM dungeon finder was for people who wanted to run a dungeon to have a way to run a dungeon without choosing a specific dungeon and obtain the Random Dungeon Finder rewards. If you needed the Skill Point or Achievement from a dungeon you wouldn't be using the Random queue, you'd be queuing for the specific dungeons.

I would agree that these points were the intention of the dungeons originally, not the dungeon finder random queue. But attributing the random queue these points is misguided at best.

LaintalAy wrote: »

What could be done to fix this is place a gate on Normal Dungeons.
How about once you complete a Veteran Dungeon, you no longer have access to Normal Dungeon?

This would be in the most misguided attempts and over corrections ever in gaming if implemented. You'd essentially be cutting the dungeon running community for normals by more than 50%, if not more, by my estimation. You'd no longer be able to have a high level dungeon runner help their guild mates out with a dungeon run through a dungeon by virtue of them having done it for the monster helm in the past.

The random function curates your missing dungeon achievements to a certain degree, at least that's my experience. The random rewards only apply for the first random of the day. You seem to forget the fact that choosing a 'specific' dungeon, still provides you with random team mates. How about you can't access Veteran Dungeons without completing all the Normal variants first? Your 'dungeon running community' idea is rather oxymoronic.

The random dungeon finder puts you in a group that is missing your role. That's it.
If someone queued for a specific dungeon and I queued for a random with a role they need, I will be put into their group.
If nobody queued for a specific dungeon, a truly random group is formed. There is no way to know beforehand.

But the random queue (and its rewards) are there to help players looking for a specific dungeon fill their groups.

And no, I would not like to lose access to normal dungeons if I complete the vet version. That would make me never run vet dungeons, even for pledges. Vet dungeons are for when I want a challenge. Normal dungeons are for when I want to chill.

LaintalAy

DenverRalphy wrote: »

There's already an incentive to keep doing randoms... Transmute Crystals. That's the number one reason.

And you'll drop group simply because you decided you just don't feel like it? Dude... your one of those kind of players... ugh. I wouldn't advertise that so much.

I rarely use crystals.
I don't enjoy doing 'Moograve Fane' over and over, with 2 unskilled healers looking for gear.
I now share the penalty for leaving early by just porting back to where I was and staying in the group.
I don't see why I should have to use the Group Finder. Everyone else apparently has a good reason not to.

davidtk wrote: »

I know person personally who TPying to the dungeon (or any zone, house, trial) MINUTES not seconds like others and after his character appear, he still have loading screen.
It's not unbelievable. It's just that not everyone has the same playing field, and this game is pretty demanding on HW and internet quality.

This happens.

fedouva

I want to say that this post helped a lot, people began to write more often about the quests and I have never once noticed that someone ran ahead without waiting for others, I think it made the game a little better)

ESO_player123

fedouva wrote: »

I want to say that this post helped a lot, people began to write more often about the quests and I have never once noticed that someone ran ahead without waiting for others, I think it made the game a little better)

I'm sorry to say this, but I doubt that this thread changed anyone's behavior in game. First of all, only a very small percent of players visit the forums. Also, speed runners will continue to speed run no matter what.

You simply had a bad experience with dungeons followed by good experience. And I think there are much more players that are willing to wait in dungeons. It's just bad experience tends to stick with us for longer.

Julia_Nix

Endgame players usually run rnds to farm transmute and do it on many toons. Doing this can be quite a chore so you need to understand why they want to rush it. But like others said just type "quest" in chat.

fedouva

ESO_player123 wrote: »

fedouva wrote: »

I want to say that this post helped a lot, people began to write more often about the quests and I have never once noticed that someone ran ahead without waiting for others, I think it made the game a little better)

I'm sorry to say this, but I doubt that this thread changed anyone's behavior in game. First of all, only a very small percent of players visit the forums. Also, speed runners will continue to speed run no matter what.

You simply had a bad experience with dungeons followed by good experience. And I think there are much more players that are willing to wait in dungeons. It's just bad experience tends to stick with us for longer.

I've been playing for a long time, but with the appearance of the post more and more often I notice how people write that there is a quest or that they need to take it, this is not just something I said).

FriedEggSandwich

I usually find I have time to do the quest when doing a random dungeon I haven't completed before. What I don't have time for though, is reading all the dialogue. I only have time to spam 'e' to get the skill point. I'm not sure I'd want to wait for someone to read all the text if I was trying to do a random, although I probably would if they asked us to wait. Usually, if I wanted to know the story behind crypt of hearts I would solo it on normal, or if it was a dungeon I couldn't solo on normal, then I would try to find someone to agree to help me. As others have said, random dungeons from the finder are incentivised by zos to be rushed.

ESO_player123

fedouva wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

fedouva wrote: »

I want to say that this post helped a lot, people began to write more often about the quests and I have never once noticed that someone ran ahead without waiting for others, I think it made the game a little better)

I'm sorry to say this, but I doubt that this thread changed anyone's behavior in game. First of all, only a very small percent of players visit the forums. Also, speed runners will continue to speed run no matter what.

You simply had a bad experience with dungeons followed by good experience. And I think there are much more players that are willing to wait in dungeons. It's just bad experience tends to stick with us for longer.

I've been playing for a long time, but with the appearance of the post more and more often I notice how people write that there is a quest or that they need to take it, this is not just something I said).

It's just a coincidence. The topic of dungeon quests and speed runners periodically appears on the forums. That means this issue does not change.

fedouva

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I usually find I have time to do the quest when doing a random dungeon I haven't completed before. What I don't have time for though, is reading all the dialogue. I only have time to spam 'e' to get the skill point. I'm not sure I'd want to wait for someone to read all the text if I was trying to do a random, although I probably would if they asked us to wait. Usually, if I wanted to know the story behind crypt of hearts I would solo it on normal, or if it was a dungeon I couldn't solo on normal, then I would try to find someone to agree to help me. As others have said, random dungeons from the finder are incentivised by zos to be rushed.

People who spent time to build quests and stories in dungeons worked only to players just run them to gain experience or skill points, today few people are interested in stories, speedruns is all that players need to get everything at once, but the end result does not like all.Here you got all the rewards and 3600 level, but what's next, and then there is no point.Therefore, the process of the game and its stories are important, but either it is not necessary for players or they do not make them interesting enough

katanagirl1

SilverBride wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I feel bad for players like this. Everyone is so quick to support the speedrunners over new players.

It’s like common courtesy died long ago.

If you see you are running ahead of the rest of the group you should slow down. The guy wasn’t prepared to type in chat he was just running the dungeon in a group, he thought.

This has nothing to do with common courtesy. Most groups will slow down if they are asked, but the rest of the group doesn't know someone needs the quest unless they tell them. It's so quick and easy to just say "Need quest". And like another poster mentioned, they can even copy and paste that into chat as soon as they enter the dungeon. If a player refuses to notify the group that they need the quest that is not the fault of the group.

What if this player has not come here to the forums and read how everyone here expects him to react?

I still argue common courtesy is you stay with the group regardless.

FriedEggSandwich

fedouva wrote: »

People who spent time to build quests and stories in dungeons worked only to players just run them to gain experience or skill points, today few people are interested in stories, speedruns is all that players need to get everything at once, but the end result does not like all.Here you got all the rewards and 3600 level, but what's next, and then there is no point.Therefore, the process of the game and its stories are important, but either it is not necessary for players or they do not make them interesting enough

I agree with your first sentence, but, like I said, zos have created a mechanic that incentivises this. It's not the players' fault. There are many players out there willing to consider lower level players, you just had a bad experience I think. You also don't have to be anywhere near cp3600 to solo the normal versions of base game dungeons. With the right build you should be able to do it at ~cp700. Doing it with just 1 other friend is even easier.

I guess the point of my post was, if you really want to know the story behind a dungeon, relying on random dungeons is probably the worst way to go about it. It could be done, just manage your expectations. You will have bad experiences.

I did a random last week where one of the group members was including the name of an irl race in everything they typed in chat. It was really weird and I couldn't wait to leave the group. 2 days ago in a random, I ran to catch up with the 2 that ran ahead, and one guy was left at the start. He caught up to us by the 3rd boss, but at the end of the fight was dead on the floor. A vote kick then popped up on my screen and I was faced with the dilema of kicking them. I chose to and he was kicked immediately. Another option then popped up on my screen; do you want to wait for another player? It was a dlc dungeon that I hadn't run before, and I had no idea if we needed another. But I chose no, and we finished the dungeon no sweat.

But other times people are considerate, there is group cohesion, and everyone is thankful at the end. If you regularly do random dungeons, sometime the experience will be comfy, and sometime it won't.

Ph1p

fedouva wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I usually find I have time to do the quest when doing a random dungeon I haven't completed before. What I don't have time for though, is reading all the dialogue. I only have time to spam 'e' to get the skill point. I'm not sure I'd want to wait for someone to read all the text if I was trying to do a random, although I probably would if they asked us to wait. Usually, if I wanted to know the story behind crypt of hearts I would solo it on normal, or if it was a dungeon I couldn't solo on normal, then I would try to find someone to agree to help me. As others have said, random dungeons from the finder are incentivised by zos to be rushed.

People who spent time to build quests and stories in dungeons worked only to players just run them to gain experience or skill points, today few people are interested in stories, speedruns is all that players need to get everything at once, but the end result does not like all.Here you got all the rewards and 3600 level, but what's next, and then there is no point.Therefore, the process of the game and its stories are important, but either it is not necessary for players or they do not make them interesting enough

I have actually done almost every dungeon as a lore/story run (with pre-made groups). But that is fun only once, maybe twice if there are different choices you can make. After that, my preference is going for speed, although I’ll of course wait if someone speaks up.

Story isn’t a long-term motivation for running dungeons and never will be. People do return again and again for keys/transmutes/gear/skill points, trying out new characters/roles, and higher difficulties or achievements.

spartaxoxo

katanagirl1 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I feel bad for players like this. Everyone is so quick to support the speedrunners over new players.

It’s like common courtesy died long ago.

If you see you are running ahead of the rest of the group you should slow down. The guy wasn’t prepared to type in chat he was just running the dungeon in a group, he thought.

This has nothing to do with common courtesy. Most groups will slow down if they are asked, but the rest of the group doesn't know someone needs the quest unless they tell them. It's so quick and easy to just say "Need quest". And like another poster mentioned, they can even copy and paste that into chat as soon as they enter the dungeon. If a player refuses to notify the group that they need the quest that is not the fault of the group.

What if this player has not come here to the forums and read how everyone here expects him to react?

I still argue common courtesy is you stay with the group regardless.

I (usually) stay near the quest giver for a few seconds until everyone starts out of basic respect for the group. If somebody says something or I can tell they need the quest based off their actions, I slow down. Not everyone is able to communicate easily so taking a couple of seconds just to see is easy and courteous imo.

ESO_player123

fedouva wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I usually find I have time to do the quest when doing a random dungeon I haven't completed before. What I don't have time for though, is reading all the dialogue. I only have time to spam 'e' to get the skill point. I'm not sure I'd want to wait for someone to read all the text if I was trying to do a random, although I probably would if they asked us to wait. Usually, if I wanted to know the story behind crypt of hearts I would solo it on normal, or if it was a dungeon I couldn't solo on normal, then I would try to find someone to agree to help me. As others have said, random dungeons from the finder are incentivised by zos to be rushed.

People who spent time to build quests and stories in dungeons worked only to players just run them to gain experience or skill points, today few people are interested in stories, speedruns is all that players need to get everything at once, but the end result does not like all.Here you got all the rewards and 3600 level, but what's next, and then there is no point.Therefore, the process of the game and its stories are important, but either it is not necessary for players or they do not make them interesting enough

That is why we need the story mode so that those players who would like to read the dialogs and follow the story could do it. As was posted before, following the story is great only once.

For example, I would gladly use such mode to go trough the stories of DLC dungeons since I was able to solo only a few of them for the story (the rest was just a quick space-bar through).

GuuMoonRyoung

Many people are suggesting to type "need quest" and other things quickly, but sadly, then others say "if you need quest type Y", when no one but the new guy types Y, they say "You lose in vote, no quest". Then there is, "Create group in group finder and look for people", the number of people needing the dungeon quests are very low and not many people want to spend more than 5 minutes in a normal dungeon, expecting people to wait longer and longer to complete a dungeon quest is not a good solution.

A good solution would be to turn the dungeons into an event quest that everyone gets when they enter, they must complete that quest to finish the dungeon and get the daily bonus. Those who do it for the first time gets skill point as reward one time.

SilverBride

GuuMoonRyoung wrote: »

A good solution would be to turn the dungeons into an event quest that everyone gets when they enter, they must complete that quest to finish the dungeon and get the daily bonus. Those who do it for the first time gets skill point as reward one time.

Making the dungeon take longer is not a good solution. I suspect that most of the players running the random daily have run about every dungeon multiple times already and do not want to drag it out. Players that want to do the quest can tell the group when they enter the dungeon... or they can group up with friends or guildies that also want a slower run. But making it a longer chore is not a fair solution for those that just want a quick run for the daily bonus.

thorwyn

A good solution would be to turn the dungeons into an event quest that everyone gets when they enter, they must complete that quest to finish the dungeon and get the daily bonus. Those who do it for the first time gets skill point as reward one time.

The underlying disconnect is not the availability or requirement of quests, but the fact that some people want to fully experience the story by reading all the dialogues and NPC roleplay. That takes up a lot of time and that's what people usually don't want to spend. "We call them INCINERATION BEETLES!!!!" might be funny once or twice, but after 500 times, the joke becomes a tad worn out.

Edit: I know that "incineration beetles" is not a quest realted voice over. I just used it to illustrate my point because it is so iconic.

tincanman

I don't think it's very helpful to think of "have quest" as giving any random player special entitlement over any other in a random group. Nor speed-runners for that matter. But the latter seems to have emerged as the default consensus from what I understand of such random groups. How individuals choose to deal with what is or is not contextually appropriate - or 'courteous' - again, is as random as the players forming such groups as solo players using eso's dungeon finder. I, personally, wouldn't have any expectations of randoms. In other words: expecting random players to play 'the way YOU want' is unrealistic.

Anyway, I wouldn't be in favour of zos changing stuff so that the slowest player becomes the enforced rate-determinant for dungeon runs. This is a player-made problem and zos have provided more than sufficient tools in the new group finder. The player-made problem has a player-made solution: pre-form groups from guilds, friend-lists, zone chat or with the features of the group finder. Or solo dungeons that don't have progress-barring mechanics for the skill points(or whatever), using companions where available to help as needed.

Let's face it, if zos gave the xp/transmute crystals for simply completing the dungeon without groups most players currently populating the random normal dungeon queues wouldn't be in that queue, they'd be happily soloing. And then the complaints, of course, would be..."queues take too long".

JiubLeRepenti

if we are in normal, and if a player asks in chat to do the quest, I'll surely slow down to let him achieve it (and I know when and how each dungeon activates its own quest).

But if the player - and it already happened - ask to slow the whole group to be able to read the quest, I'll certainly not wait for him to do it.

If ppl are more in a lore diving mindset, I think they should try to find other people like them and do the content on their side. You can't ask a person who made Arx Corinium 200+ time to wait for you to read each line of text.

At a certain level, most people do the normal dungeons to farm transmute stones OR set pieces.

old_scopie1945

SilverBride wrote: »

Ask the very second you enter the dungeon. I've never had a problem doing that.

It is very unreasonable to expect a group to accommodate another player to do their quest if they don't even know the player needs it.

To be fair in the OP's case it was a group of one player that did the speed run, the other three were together. There has been so much on this subject over the years with no change that I fear it is here to stay, regrettably.

LaintalAy

It seems to me that most players take:
'play as you like'

and interpret it as:
'run amok and not be accountable'

Random dungeons could be enjoyable, repeatable game play. There have been times where I knuckle down and attempt to do a series of random runs. One or two go OK, then a complex dungeon arrives and the team members that come with it, combine to make it high farce. Then, to add insult to injury, you get penalised for leaving.

The consensus in this discussion and the others that have preceded it, is that no-one is willing to change. Everyone has an excuse for their own behaviour.

Blood_again

ESO_player123 wrote: »

It's just a coincidence. The topic of dungeon quests and speed runners periodically appears on the forums. That means this issue does not change.

It may be not just a coincidence, but the Baader–Meinhof phenomenon.
It happens to me often enough, especially after I've known about it.

ESO_player123

Blood_again wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

It's just a coincidence. The topic of dungeon quests and speed runners periodically appears on the forums. That means this issue does not change.

It may be not just a coincidence, but the Baader–Meinhof phenomenon.
It happens to me often enough, especially after I've known about it.

Or that. Thank for providing the link. I did not know that this phenomenon actually has a name attached to it.

old_scopie1945

thorwyn wrote:-
"If typing is a problem because you are using a different language keyboard layout, use the interpreter beforehand and copy the result so you can paste it once you are inside the dungeon."

And how many times do you do that? There are multiple languages spoken in the EU. By the time you have done them all the game would be over by some margin.

Ph1p

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

thorwyn wrote:-
"If typing is a problem because you are using a different language keyboard layout, use the interpreter beforehand and copy the result so you can paste it once you are inside the dungeon."

And how many times do you do that? There are multiple languages spoken in the EU. By the time you have done them all the game would be over by some margin.

Once, in English. Because of this:

Julia_Nix

thorwyn wrote: »

A good solution would be to turn the dungeons into an event quest that everyone gets when they enter, they must complete that quest to finish the dungeon and get the daily bonus. Those who do it for the first time gets skill point as reward one time.

The underlying disconnect is not the availability or requirement of quests, but the fact that some people want to fully experience the story by reading all the dialogues and NPC roleplay. That takes up a lot of time and that's what people usually don't want to spend. "We call them INCINERATION BEETLES!!!!" might be funny once or twice, but after 500 times, the joke becomes a tad worn out.

Edit: I know that "incineration beetles" is not a quest realted voice over. I just used it to illustrate my point because it is so iconic.

"At'avar where are youuuuuu"

Ezhh

fedouva wrote: »

People who spent time to build quests and stories in dungeons worked only to players just run them to gain experience or skill points, today few people are interested in stories, speedruns is all that players need to get everything at once ...

If you read a good book, do you want to read it again the next day, then the next, then the day after? Or do you want to watch the same episode of a show over and over on repeat? For most people, you enjoy a story once, maybe revisit it some time later.

People deciding they don't want to experience a story 10+ times doesn't mean they are not interested in stories.

I am VERY interested in stories and for every new dungeon release I make a group that goes in together completely blind. We listen to everything the NPCs say, we read every lore book in the dungeon, we work out the mechanics of each fight and we explore every corner of the dungeon we can reach. When I queue in for a random group there a few days later to farm items, I will go slow if anyone says they need the quest, and I will explain mechanics to anyone who says they don't understand something, but I don't want to listen to the whole quest again.

So when you see people moving faster than you, please try to understand this isn't always ignoring the work that has gone into the stories. They just already did the quest so many times that they could probably recite most of the lines.

TaSheen

Ezhh wrote: »

If you read a good book, do you want to read it again the next day, then the next, then the day after? Or do you want to watch the same episode of a show over and over on repeat? For most people, you enjoy a story once, maybe revisit it some time later.

Well.... in general, when I buy a "new to me" book (or sometimes the whole series of books from a given author), yes, I will read it (them) all in one gulp (I read REALLY fast - 1500 wpm) and I get a huge dopamine rush when done. And then, the next day or the second day, I go back and reread it (them) again, this time taking the time to savor the real meat on the bones - I dissect the descriptions, the characterizations, the personalities, the plot points.

And lots of times, I'll go back and reread again, a month later or so. And then there are the "worlds" of multiple books by Tolkien, Elizabeth Moon, Misty Lackey and others which I reread whenever I just need immersion in those favorite worlds.... worlds where I feel very at home, and wish I really lived in them....

AvalonRanger

fedouva wrote: »

Just been in the Crypt of Hearts dungeon and couldn't take the back because while me and two low level players were killing the initial mobs, a 2000 point champion player ran in and activated the first boss. I think players go to dungeons just to run them, but not for a compelling story and it's sad. I certainly have an idea how to fix it, but no one will like forced dialogues without text) Just for today my impressions of hiking in the dungeons because of such sittuatsii spoiled.Also I will not be able to complete some quests, because the levers and other devices activated other players because of what I do not count the completion of these tasks, this is also very sad ... What do you think about this?

1, If you want to enjoy story reading in the dungeon quest, then don't use random grouping.
GO TO THE GROUPING TOOLS.

2, If you just want skill point by finishing dungeon quest, just say "I have quest" at the group chat.
Most of people accept your situation except jerk.

3, You should not expect slow pace running or deep exploring with the random team.

DenverRalphy

AvalonRanger wrote: »

fedouva wrote: »

Just been in the Crypt of Hearts dungeon and couldn't take the back because while me and two low level players were killing the initial mobs, a 2000 point champion player ran in and activated the first boss. I think players go to dungeons just to run them, but not for a compelling story and it's sad. I certainly have an idea how to fix it, but no one will like forced dialogues without text) Just for today my impressions of hiking in the dungeons because of such sittuatsii spoiled.Also I will not be able to complete some quests, because the levers and other devices activated other players because of what I do not count the completion of these tasks, this is also very sad ... What do you think about this?

1, If you want to enjoy story reading in the dungeon quest, then don't use random grouping.
GO TO THE GROUPING TOOLS.

2, If you just want skill point by finishing dungeon quest, just say "I have quest" at the group chat.
Most of people accept your situation except jerk.

3, You should not expect slow pace running or deep exploring with the random team.

By that same token, a single speed runner should not expect it to be a fast pace run either. Just like in the OP's example. One player decided to zoom off and speed run and trigger the bosses while the other 3 were like "what the wha?"