To ZOS from all the pvp magdens

Skjaldbjorn · July 16

haelgaan wrote: »

terrible change.

imagine being a warden tank holding the boss and adds on you and needing your AB burst heal right now and you get... nothing.

imagine being a warden soloing vMA, vVH, IA, or any group dungeon, and you're being swarmed by mobs so you hit your AB to get a burst heal to stay alive while you freeze them all and you get... dead.

i could live with a 10% nerf of the heal, but either a delay of the heal or making the heal go away if anyone happens to be standing near you ruins the skill.

To be fair, Warden tanks run Polar Wind, not AB.

ESO_Nightingale · July 16

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

haelgaan wrote: »

terrible change.

imagine being a warden tank holding the boss and adds on you and needing your AB burst heal right now and you get... nothing.

imagine being a warden soloing vMA, vVH, IA, or any group dungeon, and you're being swarmed by mobs so you hit your AB to get a burst heal to stay alive while you freeze them all and you get... dead.

i could live with a 10% nerf of the heal, but either a delay of the heal or making the heal go away if anyone happens to be standing near you ruins the skill.

To be fair, Warden tanks run Polar Wind, not AB.

Which is why its weird they nerfed AB because tanky wardens don't deal damage with polar wind.

moderatelyfatman · July 16

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Zos we do not want this

Requiring us to not hit a target to get the heal is terrible, pvp is all about burst healing which every class has access to, it will make this skill very unreliable in pvp forcing us to slot another burst heal, which the class doesn’t currently have.

Edit

I’m conflicted on the piercing cold I think the passive was just weird in general and the new passive isn’t any better it kills ice staff warden in one fell swoop. a change I wouldn’t mind seeing is in addition to what they’ve changed piercing cold to also add 8% frost damage while wielding an ice staff to not completely kill a play style, this way we retain some of the damage we are losing.

Another thing I think would help is changing the warden class script to freezing enemies in place rather then charming them, this is terrible to use for pvp because as a warden you want people in front of you to hit shalks but charming them makes enemies run behind you.

Q:Tell me you don't really play the game without actually telling me you don't play the game.

A: Warden, Nightblade, Necromancer changes.

StShoot · July 16

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

StShoot wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

The only other method I can think of to give a % damage gain without it impacting PVP is to apply the new "Only to monsters" dynamic, which would equally anger PVP players.

Not our problem to solve, let the professional game devs at ZOS handle it, we just need to communicate that the changes to Piercing Cold and Arctic Blast are inadequate for what actually goes on in PvP and PvE.

But see, they're not. From a PVE perspective, it's fine. They could tack 2-4% frost staff damage back on, but outside of that, this change is perfectly reasonable. It's exclusively PVP where it's an issue.

So forcing every class into a dual wield / 2handed playstyle is not an issue? You are contradicting yourself:
On one side you complain that you are currently forced to play a froststaff on the other side you are completly fine with the fact, that everyone will be forced to play dualwield in the next patch.
Than you claim that 2%+ the crit chance of daggers (BIS weapon for PvE btw.) is much worse than the current version of frosstaffs, but one comment later you say that 2/4% +0 would make up for the dps difference between those two weapons.

I didn't say it would make it up. It shouldn't. Melee weapons should deal more damage, and always have. Frost staff needs to be competitive with other staves. You want them to be competitive with dual wield. I never said that.

Ah yeah, but you know that it largely depends on the class if you are a melee or range spec? Or more the availability of a decent ranged/melee spamable? A dk with two staffs will never be a ranged class, while an arcanist even tho it plays dual dagger will never be a melee class.
And yes you said that 2%-4% would make them viable, but viability is largely determined by the fact how the weapon performes compared to other weapons, if dual wield performs better than Staffs, than everyone will jump on dualwield because range actual doesnt matter in 80% of the encounters in Eso.
Also didnt you tell us that Warden curently uses dual Arena weapons (dsa froststaff+maelstrom2handed) doesnt that make your frost warden a melee DD? Or did you always run away after procing your charge, to stay on range ? xD

Skjaldbjorn · July 16

StShoot wrote: »

Ah yeah, but you know that it largely depends on the class if you are a melee or range spec? Or more the availability of a decent ranged/melee spamable? A dk with two staffs will never be a ranged class, while an arcanist even tho it plays dual dagger will never be a melee class.
And yes you said that 2%-4% would make them viable, but viability is largely determined by the fact how the weapon performes compared to other weapons, if dual wield performs better than Staffs, than everyone will jump on dualwield because range actual doesnt matter in 80% of the encounters in Eso.
Also didnt you tell us that Warden curently uses dual Arena weapons (dsa froststaff+maelstrom2handed) doesnt that make your frost warden a melee DD? Or did you always run away after procing your charge, to stay on range ? xD

In ESO, no one is really a "ranged" spec outside of a few encounters where it's required. Melee is always better because daggers are king, and have been for ages. Even when everyone was in full light Bahsei, it was still daggers.

Viable is relative. In super sweaty groups, yes, you'll be expected to play some form of the meta. However, that's hardly all groups. I've been in plenty of scenarios that simply didn't subscribe to that theory and the group has performed far better than the general expectation would likely be.

Warden's best setup right now is Master Frost/Maelstrom 2H. I tried it and loathed it. Zero flexibility, damage ST was fine but that was about it. I've been grinding trying to find alternative builds for a bit now, and I've had success with a few more traditional setups. However, those setups will perform better on most non-Arc classes simply because Warden isn't good right now. This buff will definitely help and is welcome.

xylena_lazarow · July 16

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Warden's best setup right now is Master Frost

They just murdered Master Ice builds for no reason. The changes to Piercing Cold are clearly good for your personal playstyle, but they are absolutely horrible for many other Warden players both PvE and PvP.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Which is why its weird they nerfed AB because tanky wardens don't deal damage with polar wind.

They just reworked Arctic Blast again and I still have no idea what it's supposed to do. It's neither a reliable stun nor a reliable heal, the dot effect is still 5m radius so it never hits anything in PvP, and it got... nerfed again?

Skjaldbjorn · July 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Warden's best setup right now is Master Frost

They just murdered Master Ice builds for no reason. The changes to Piercing Cold are clearly good for your personal playstyle, but they are absolutely horrible for many other Warden players both PvE and PvP.

That depends. Wardens were not even remotely an option in sweaty PVE content with frost staves, tbh. Zero versatility. At least now they're inching closer on a pure damage basis. If they would make the Warden HP passive apply if the Warden simply healed themselves to give it to the rest of the group, we'd be on our way to something. But without raw damage buffs that aren't chained to a frost staff, it wouldn't have mattered.

xylena_lazarow · July 16

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Zero versatility. At least now they're inching closer on a pure damage basis.

So they nuked a bunch of builds and playstyles to "inch closer" and still get blown away by Arcs?

Skjaldbjorn · July 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Zero versatility. At least now they're inching closer on a pure damage basis.

So they nuked a bunch of builds and playstyles to "inch closer" and still get blown away by Arcs?

Utility is always the big metric. Pure damage only gets you so far. If they can find a way to give Warden more raid utility, that would help tremendously. We already regularly bring classes with lower damage profiles purely for utility. However, there's only so much damage you can give up for it.

As far as nuking builds/playstyles, it's really PVP and to some extent Infinite Archive. Nobody was taking Frost/2h Wardens in sweaty groups. Overland it's fine. Dungeons it's fine. Mid-tier trial groups it's fine. This comes down to PVP and health stacking IA Wardens.

xylena_lazarow · July 16

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

If they can find a way to give Warden more raid utility, that would help tremendously... This comes down to PVP and health stacking IA Wardens.

So yeah, nuking a bunch of PvP and IA builds for no reason. Rework it to something that both gives the PvP damage back, and gives Warden their needed PvE raid utility. The current state of it is unacceptable.

Urzigurumash · July 16

I'm not sure I'd call 4% a "nuke"? Everybody just lost 20% Mitigation.

Skjaldbjorn · July 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

If they can find a way to give Warden more raid utility, that would help tremendously... This comes down to PVP and health stacking IA Wardens.

So yeah, nuking a bunch of PvP and IA builds for no reason. Rework it to something that both gives the PvP damage back, and gives Warden their needed PvE raid utility. The current state of it is unacceptable.

I cannot believe I am saying this for the 10th time. Every damage passive rework, from the retooled AC passive to the former Piercing Cold passive, Zos has quoted PVP as the reason behind the nerfs. They've tried to shoehorn damage into our builds through terrible methods, such as the previous Frost Staff idea, because they wanted to avoid meta PVP builds gaining free damage while still being tanky and healing a ton.

While I think the Arctic Blast changes are stupid and the focus should have been on Polar Wind, it's painfully obvious they view Warden as overperforming in PVP to some extent - that could be current perception, or a timeline perception. Considering Warden has received very few nerfs in PVP through its lifetime, it is plausible it's a timeline perception.

The thing is, it doesn't really matter which way they see it - if Zos thinks Warden is overperforming in PVP, they're not going to suddenly change their minds because of the forums. They've shown over and over again they feel like Warden % gains are too strong in PVP, because they sure as hell were never overperforming in PVE. In fact, ages ago, a dev even admitted the % damage from the AC passive was the "band-aid holding the class together".

YandereGirlfriend · July 16

This change is ridonkulous from a group PvP perspective because StamDens basically run group PvP. If you've ever been dunked into the sun by a ball group... 99% chance that you got killed by a bunch of stacked StamDen DDs. DDs are generally the squishiest roles in a raid and ZOS is now giving them... even more Block mitigation to cover that one minor shortcoming? Absolutely crazed. (And this is coming from a ballgrouper.)

xylena_lazarow · July 16

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd call 4% a "nuke"? Everybody just lost 20% Mitigation.

Master Ice builds as they are lose 12%, now pigeonholed into a bizarre build structure and permablock playstyle.

Meanwhile, Tarnished Anthelmir etc ranged burst proc stacking untouched...

Highwayman · July 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd call 4% a "nuke"? Everybody just lost 20% Mitigation.

Master Ice builds as they are lose 12%, now pigeonholed into a bizarre build structure and permablock playstyle.

Meanwhile, Tarnished Anthelmir etc ranged burst proc stacking untouched...

Hi, long time listener, first time caller...

Signed up to agree with you.

This change destroys a unique and fun pvp playstyle that wasn't anywhere near overperforming.

I have prepared nb and sorc for next patch as I assume it won't be reverted because they seem to be trying to throw frost damage a bone via scribing. Not that changes like this really ever have much chance of being reverted of course.

Fwiw, I also agree with the idea of making frost staff a first class citizen of the destro line and making a dedicated tanking staff line. That has been floating around forever and I would be excited to see that.

Urzigurumash · July 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd call 4% a "nuke"? Everybody just lost 20% Mitigation.

Master Ice builds as they are lose 12%, now pigeonholed into a bizarre build structure and permablock playstyle.

Meanwhile, Tarnished Anthelmir etc ranged burst proc stacking untouched...

You mean because you MUST have over 30k HP? Rather than run at 29k and suffer only a 4% loss?

And why do you keep specifying Master's Ice?

This might be an Xbox vs PC issue, I've gleaned over the years that PC is both tankier and more homogenous - so homogenous even that you can logically call all builds with a front bar Frost a Master's Ice Build? Nobody out there spamming Force Pulse or Eviscerate with a Frost Staff?

Again all I see is that this might encourage Flame or Lightning but if your Crit Chance is high enough I'm not sure Minor Brittle can't outperform or at least equal the Flame/Lightning modifier.

ESO_Nightingale · July 17

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd call 4% a "nuke"? Everybody just lost 20% Mitigation.

Master Ice builds as they are lose 12%, now pigeonholed into a bizarre build structure and permablock playstyle.

Meanwhile, Tarnished Anthelmir etc ranged burst proc stacking untouched...

You mean because you MUST have over 30k HP? Rather than run at 29k and suffer only a 4% loss?

And why do you keep specifying Master's Ice?

This might be an Xbox vs PC issue, I've gleaned over the years that PC is both tankier and more homogenous - so homogenous even that you can logically call all builds with a front bar Frost a Master's Ice Build? Nobody out there spamming Force Pulse or Eviscerate with a Frost Staff?

Again all I see is that this might encourage Flame or Lightning but if your Crit Chance is high enough I'm not sure Minor Brittle can't outperform or at least equal the Flame/Lightning modifier.

in group compositions, flame/lightning staves already benefit from minor brittle. its not a true comparison.

Durham · July 17

FoJul wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

We already told them last patch when they put in the patch notes that they were making the Ice line more tanky that we didn’t want that, they just never listen to us

Just settled on Warden as my new main too, guess I'll have to play NB next patch. Happy now ZOS?

NB slander kinda crazy, you can play DK or Sorc too.

Night Blades have insane healing atm. My night blade can crit heal for insane amounts. Last night I saw several nightblades pull off 16K crit heals. I have done the same. Nighblades are an S-tier class right now, So are Sorcs. DK's are still firmly in the A category so are Wardens. Both of these classes are currently pincushions and have no way to flee or reset fights.

After I ding AR 50 on my Warden (48 now) I am also moving to NIghtblade full time because they are just a better class all-a-round!

50+ % of the Cyrodil population is Nightblades currently the highest I have ever seen. Just look at the leaderboards and see what it takes to break into the top 100 on Nightblades and Sorcs and you will understand. Then please look at Necro's

Sorry for going off topic .

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This change is ridonkulous from a group PvP perspective because StamDens basically run group PvP. If you've ever been dunked into the sun by a ball group... 99% chance that you got killed by a bunch of stacked StamDen DDs. DDs are generally the squishiest roles in a raid and ZOS is now giving them... even more Block mitigation to cover that one minor shortcoming? Absolutely crazed. (And this is coming from a ballgrouper.)

Health as a heal modifier needs to be done away it's a horrid game design. Artic blast was the morph that was the most fun to play with and more balanced. Polar on the other hand is a bad gameplay design. All heals based on health needs to be redone. I would rather healing be based on resource stats or weapon damage. Healing in general needs a look at. The game balance is in a bad place currently.

MATH_COW · July 17

Durham wrote: »

Health as a heal modifier needs to be done away it's a horrid game design. Artic blast was the morph that was the most fun to play with and more balanced. Polar on the other hand is a bad gameplay design. All heals based on health needs to be redone. I would rather healing be based on resource stats or weapon damage. Healing in general needs a look at. The game balance is in a bad place currently.

Health as a heal modifier is not horrible or a bad design, this is just a problem for PvP because of his stupid meta.
If there is anything to do to nerf those heal it's on the Battle Spirit that they should add it instead of stupidly nerfing skill one per one just for PvP without carring about the impact of those nerf for the PvE.
Sorry but I don't want my tank to lose his selfheal.

Actually the real bad game design about health (and even resistance) as a modifier is for damage that scale on that because there is so few of those that you cannot really do anything to make a build that work on those and you'll anyway not have enough penetration and crit rate to make them good enough lol

Urzigurumash · July 18

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd call 4% a "nuke"? Everybody just lost 20% Mitigation.

Master Ice builds as they are lose 12%, now pigeonholed into a bizarre build structure and permablock playstyle.

Meanwhile, Tarnished Anthelmir etc ranged burst proc stacking untouched...

You mean because you MUST have over 30k HP? Rather than run at 29k and suffer only a 4% loss?

And why do you keep specifying Master's Ice?

This might be an Xbox vs PC issue, I've gleaned over the years that PC is both tankier and more homogenous - so homogenous even that you can logically call all builds with a front bar Frost a Master's Ice Build? Nobody out there spamming Force Pulse or Eviscerate with a Frost Staff?

Again all I see is that this might encourage Flame or Lightning but if your Crit Chance is high enough I'm not sure Minor Brittle can't outperform or at least equal the Flame/Lightning modifier.

in group compositions, flame/lightning staves already benefit from minor brittle. its not a true comparison.

Ah great point, I suspect this is Xylena's point too then, that Master's Ice builds were a rare and long-awaited appearance of MagDen DD in group comped 12 man in CP Cyro, without them MagDen goes back to Healer only and Warden DD as Spin 2 Win only. And also I assume 29k HP is VD Proc territory in group Grey Host.

That explains quite a bit of why it always seemed like MagDen was undervalued on this forum, I play BGs and Solo Cyro and MagDen's always been decent in these, with numerous ways to viably build. As I said in BGs MagDen damage was getting just a little too good maybe, right on line with DK as others have said.

So from this limited view, the 4% really doesn't matter in light of the 20% loss on Undeath, and also the 29k frontbar 31k backbar is easily achievable and will probably be viable.

For Solo OW Fetcherflies is a really strong point for Ranged MagDen in my experience, a must slot, so Lightning Staves give a superfluous debuff.

katemedina666 · July 18

They brought my MAGden to tears with their nerfs... Are you satisfied ZOSs???

Rkindaleft · July 21

I don't really PvP much outside of the event, I don't follow it enough to know what's considered OP there (outside of what everyone complains about on the forums like Sorcs or NB or even werewolf whenever it gets some kind of buff) so this is a PvE perspective.

There have been too many silly balance changes and swinging pendulums because frost Magden became a (somewhat) viable build using a tanking weapon.

Frostden should be a viable playstyle with Ice Staff. Ice Staff should be reworked in to what it was meant to be (purely a Destruction Staff) and tanks should get a new staff type to tank with. As others have mentioned Ice/Ice wasn't even remotely close to overperforming, it was simply okay, in fact in general Warden DPS is awful and hasn't been used at the top level in like 4 years outside niche situations and a small period where brittle was reworked (Brittleden) and very rarely Zenden.

Also the Arctic Blast change requiring you to not have anyone/mobs near you is horrific, I wonder who was high enough to suggest that.