To ZOS from all the pvp magdens

Skjaldbjorn

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

It literally can't be worse than tying a class to a weapon by force.

Yeah I get that it was bad for PvE but Warden had great build diversity in PvP, you had the old school 2h/SnB Dizzy brawlers, DW/SnB brawlers, DW/Ice hybrids, Ice/Ice mages, Ice/Resto mages, comp group DDs, and more. Now a lot of Warden builds are obligated towards permablock, either to enable brawling below 30k hp, or to be a brick above 30k hp.

This has been Warden's life in PVE since release, my guy. I've lived it. Every few patches, Warden nerfs. Now redesign your PVE build, pray you can find a way to be competitive or go play something else.

Necrom was the first time I completely shelved my Warden. It was the saddest point I've had in ESO, because Arc was just so much better that it wasn't even worth the effort to try.

xylena_lazarow

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

This has been Warden's life in PVE since release, girl. I've lived it. Every few patches, Warden nerfs. Now redesign your PVE build, pray you can find a way to be competitive or go play something else.

FTFY, no worries. Anyway I feel you, earlier this year I got into PvP Arc just for my build to be nerfed, finally get into PvP Warden and my build gets nerfed, it's been a decade of this. @ZOS_Gilliam wants us to PvP on NB. Okay fine. NB it is.

Pevey

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

StShoot wrote: »

This is once again a case where zos wasted development time. Warden wasnt overperforming anywhere. Not in pve nor in PvP. We curently have Magsorcs that are able to tank a whole server with their shield + streaks, we have blades that can bring you from 100 to 0 in the blink of an eye and for some reason they decided to nerf the Burstheal of the warden,while other classes remain unchanged.
Also the change to piercing cold is terrible, it enabled the warden to play with froststaffs which was a fresh breeze compared to the DW we have to play on all other classes. I dont even get why players complained about piercing cold: You were not forced to play froststaffs, you could use other weapons because those other weapons had their own offensive stat lines unlike the froststaff.

No lol. If you wanted to be even moderately competitive in PVE, your only option was double arena weapons. You either give up a mythic or a 5-piece just to be a "frost mage". It was a TERRIBLE design choice.

This is not entirely true. It’s true that masters in front bar was pretty much required, and more options would have been preferred. But I could run anything on backbar, not necessarily maelstrom. Zenden is awesome on live and provides a reason to bring a warden since dk mains are wanting to bring their arcs.

I would love to see options opened up without ice staff being nerfed.

Skjaldbjorn

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

This has been Warden's life in PVE since release, girl. I've lived it. Every few patches, Warden nerfs. Now redesign your PVE build, pray you can find a way to be competitive or go play something else.

FTFY, no worries. Anyway I feel you, earlier this year I got into PvP Arc just for my build to be nerfed, finally get into PvP Warden and my build gets nerfed, it's been a decade of this. @ZOS_Gilliam wants us to PvP on NB. Okay fine. NB it is.

Oops, my fault. I also consider dude a gender neutral term, for the record. My dog is dude, my mom is dude, my car is dude, my sink is dude, we're all dudes yeah. xD

But seriously, my bad. Yeah it's brutal as hell. I made a MASSIVE post earlier this year about the absurd turnover Warden has faced patch after patch with little to no actual direction or purpose.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/644972/the-bear-the-birb-and-the-basement-or-how-i-learned-to-stop-bothering-and-love-the-suck#latest

It's insane to me how poorly managed Warden has been.

EDIT: Oh I said my guy, not dude. Oops. Extra apologies.

Skjaldbjorn

Pevey wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

StShoot wrote: »

This is once again a case where zos wasted development time. Warden wasnt overperforming anywhere. Not in pve nor in PvP. We curently have Magsorcs that are able to tank a whole server with their shield + streaks, we have blades that can bring you from 100 to 0 in the blink of an eye and for some reason they decided to nerf the Burstheal of the warden,while other classes remain unchanged.
Also the change to piercing cold is terrible, it enabled the warden to play with froststaffs which was a fresh breeze compared to the DW we have to play on all other classes. I dont even get why players complained about piercing cold: You were not forced to play froststaffs, you could use other weapons because those other weapons had their own offensive stat lines unlike the froststaff.

No lol. If you wanted to be even moderately competitive in PVE, your only option was double arena weapons. You either give up a mythic or a 5-piece just to be a "frost mage". It was a TERRIBLE design choice.

This is not entirely true. It’s true that masters in front bar was pretty much required, and more options would have been preferred. But I could run anything on backbar, not necessarily maelstrom. Zenden is awesome on live and provides a reason to bring a warden since dk mains are wanting to bring their arcs.

I would love to see options opened up without ice staff being nerfed.

If you wanted max damage, it was maelstrom 2h. The flat damage from that scales insanely hard and has been grossly overperforming. Even Charles acknowledged that if you had to give up one arena weapon (Master's Frost or Maelstrom 2h) drop the Master's. Flat damage gains almost always overperform in ESO. Poopfist taught us that a while ago.

xylena_lazarow

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

It's insane to me how poorly managed Warden has been.EDIT: Oh I said my guy, not dude. Oops. Extra apologies.

All good! Warden in PvP has been consistently good through all the bizarre reworks, the core function has remained AoE burst + cross healing = strong group DD and overall versatile class. It's still probably 3rd place behind NB and Sorc, but this nerf hurts a lot of fair PvP stat DD builds for no reason, while things like ranged proc stack ganking run amok.

acastanza_ESO

In PVP Warden is currently able to build far, far, too tanky with too much free damage. ZOS has accurately identified this issue, but in typical ZOS fashion isn't going about fixing it in a way that makes sense to anyone who actually PVPs.

xylena_lazarow

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

In PVP Warden is currently able to build far, far, too tanky with too much free damage. ZOS has accurately identified this issue, but in typical ZOS fashion isn't going about fixing it in a way that makes sense to anyone who actually PVPs.

If you think Warden is too tanky relative to its damage, may I introduce to you something called "Nightblade" and "Sorceror." Even with Falcon as the best speed skill, Warden can't disengage and reset like a teleporting Sorc or vanishing NB, so Warden still has to play fair and take hits. Unlike Sorc or NB, Warden needs to be able to face tank to some extent. This doesn't nerf Warden's power ceiling so much as it limits playstyles and incentivizes permablock DD setups.

Skjaldbjorn

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

It's insane to me how poorly managed Warden has been.EDIT: Oh I said my guy, not dude. Oops. Extra apologies.

All good! Warden in PvP has been consistently good through all the bizarre reworks, the core function has remained AoE burst + cross healing = strong group DD and overall versatile class. It's still probably 3rd place behind NB and Sorc, but this nerf hurts a lot of fair PvP stat DD builds for no reason, while things like ranged proc stack ganking run amok.

And I think that's why I...honestly, don't really care if PVP Wardens are mad. As you've said, they've always been pretty viable in PVP. PVE has had flashes for a few patches at a time at best. So to me it's kind of "take one for the team for a change".

xylena_lazarow

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

So to me it's kind of "take one for the team for a change".

I played Warden out of love. Now it is time to play Nightblade out of hate.

Skjaldbjorn

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

So to me it's kind of "take one for the team for a change".

I played Warden out of love. Now it is time to play Nightblade out of hate.

Literally me with Arc lmao. I feel that.

Pevey

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

StShoot wrote: »

This is once again a case where zos wasted development time. Warden wasnt overperforming anywhere. Not in pve nor in PvP. We curently have Magsorcs that are able to tank a whole server with their shield + streaks, we have blades that can bring you from 100 to 0 in the blink of an eye and for some reason they decided to nerf the Burstheal of the warden,while other classes remain unchanged.
Also the change to piercing cold is terrible, it enabled the warden to play with froststaffs which was a fresh breeze compared to the DW we have to play on all other classes. I dont even get why players complained about piercing cold: You were not forced to play froststaffs, you could use other weapons because those other weapons had their own offensive stat lines unlike the froststaff.

No lol. If you wanted to be even moderately competitive in PVE, your only option was double arena weapons. You either give up a mythic or a 5-piece just to be a "frost mage". It was a TERRIBLE design choice.

This is not entirely true. It’s true that masters in front bar was pretty much required, and more options would have been preferred. But I could run anything on backbar, not necessarily maelstrom. Zenden is awesome on live and provides a reason to bring a warden since dk mains are wanting to bring their arcs.

I would love to see options opened up without ice staff being nerfed.

If you wanted max damage, it was maelstrom 2h. The flat damage from that scales insanely hard and has been grossly overperforming. Even Charles acknowledged that if you had to give up one arena weapon (Master's Frost or Maelstrom 2h) drop the Master's. Flat damage gains almost always overperform in ESO. Poopfist taught us that a while ago.

This is all true, but I thought we were talking about ice/ice, not ice/2h. Ice/2h parses may actually improve vs live because of the time you spend casting on backbar. The thing that was nerfed was ice/ice. While ice/2h can get about 135 on dummy, ice/ice can still pull around 120 (probably someone else better at parsing could do even more) and is more practical in a lot of situations. Not tippy top, but easier to sustain in content without cross-resource-pool parse food, and leaves your small stamina pool for things like blocking meteors and roll dodging out of group to cleanse. ice/2h feels terrible in actual content.

Skjaldbjorn

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is all true, but I thought we were talking about ice/ice, not ice/2h. Ice/2h parses may actually improve vs live because of the time you spend casting on backbar. The thing that was nerfed was ice/ice. While ice/2h can get about 135 on dummy, ice/ice can still pull around 120 (probably someone else better at parsing could do even more) and is more practical in a lot of situations. Not tippy top, but easier to sustain in content without cross-resource-pool parse food, and leaves your small stamina pool for things like blocking meteors and roll dodging out of group to cleanse. ice/2h feels terrible in actual content.

I played Ice/2h. Race matters a lot. High Elves are incredibly strong. You run mag food, but you can run the opposing netch if you really need the sustain, but the High Elf passive resource return was very, very good for Ice/2h.

Pevey

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is all true, but I thought we were talking about ice/ice, not ice/2h. Ice/2h parses may actually improve vs live because of the time you spend casting on backbar. The thing that was nerfed was ice/ice. While ice/2h can get about 135 on dummy, ice/ice can still pull around 120 (probably someone else better at parsing could do even more) and is more practical in a lot of situations. Not tippy top, but easier to sustain in content without cross-resource-pool parse food, and leaves your small stamina pool for things like blocking meteors and roll dodging out of group to cleanse. ice/2h feels terrible in actual content.

I played Ice/2h. Race matters a lot. High Elves are incredibly strong. You run mag food, but you can run the opposing netch if you really need the sustain, but the High Elf passive resource return was very, very good for Ice/2h.

Well, congrats, you just got a buff. But there's no reason ice/ice should be nerfed. There's no reason that something that is not even close to overperforming should be nerfed. That's all I'm saying.

Skjaldbjorn

Pevey wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is all true, but I thought we were talking about ice/ice, not ice/2h. Ice/2h parses may actually improve vs live because of the time you spend casting on backbar. The thing that was nerfed was ice/ice. While ice/2h can get about 135 on dummy, ice/ice can still pull around 120 (probably someone else better at parsing could do even more) and is more practical in a lot of situations. Not tippy top, but easier to sustain in content without cross-resource-pool parse food, and leaves your small stamina pool for things like blocking meteors and roll dodging out of group to cleanse. ice/2h feels terrible in actual content.

I played Ice/2h. Race matters a lot. High Elves are incredibly strong. You run mag food, but you can run the opposing netch if you really need the sustain, but the High Elf passive resource return was very, very good for Ice/2h.

Well, congrats, you just got a buff. But there's no reason ice/ice should be nerfed. There's no reason that something that is not even close to overperforming should be nerfed. That's all I'm saying.

I hate the Ice/2h build. Like I said, it killed any potential to adjust for specific encounters. It's one note and a bad note at that.

Durham

Warden does not have enough damage to warrant a sub 30k play style in pvp. Keep in mind with minor toughness you’re actually at 28k lol.

If this change goes live. This class will fall to being regulated to just healing, or a low to modest damage heavy tank. It will fall to the bottom of the charts and yes you will be buffing them next year.

Last night I ran my stam warden with polar wind. 5 heavy and 40k health. (Dizzy. Build). It works but its damage is much more mediocre then my current setup. Not as fun as my current setup. I was running 4-5 medium with artic blast. 33-34 k health.

This change impacts ice warden and stam wardens.

Sad to say they are going live with this I have not known them to listen to forum feedback with a change this big.

Meanwhile your two S tier classes in pvp remained S tier.

Skjaldbjorn

Durham wrote: »

Warden does not have enough damage to warrant a sub 30k play style in pvp. Keep in mind with minor toughness you’re actually at 28k lol.

If this change goes live. This class will fall to being regulated to just healing, or a low to modest damage heavy tank. It will fall to the bottom of the charts and yes you will be buffing them next year.

Last night I ran my stam warden with polar wind. 5 heavy and 40k health. (Dizzy. Build). It works but its damage is much more mediocre then my current setup. Not as fun as my current setup. I was running 4-5 medium with artic blast. 33-34 k health.

This change impacts ice warden and stam wardens.

Sad to say they are going live with this I have not known them to listen to forum feedback with a change this big.

Meanwhile your two S tier classes in pvp remained S tier.

The issue is, what's the alternative? They had to fix PVE DPS Wardens being stuck on an Ice staff. And don't say "Well just make it flat x% without the stipulations". That's how we got here to start with. So what's the fix that makes both PVPers and PVE DPS happy?

xylena_lazarow

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

"Well just make it flat x% without the stipulations". That's how we got here to start with

Unconditional whatever damage buff. Take your pick for PvE it'll probably be fine for PvP.

Durham

Then make polar wind the one that increase damage. Leave arctic blast as is. Polar wind is the skill that is over performing. Change that one to the listed changes.

Skjaldbjorn

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

"Well just make it flat x% without the stipulations". That's how we got here to start with

Unconditional whatever damage buff. Take your pick for PvE it'll probably be fine for PvP.

As in frost damage? That's too limiting. DKs for example get Poison + Flame, which covers basically their entire kit. The problem is Warden is super varied;

Birb: Bleed/Magic
Bugs: Bleed/Magic
Winter's: Frost
Arctic: Frost
Shalks: Poison/Magic
Bear: Bleed/Magic
Perma: Frost

Even if you did Bleed + Frost, that still misses skills like bugs' mag morph and Shalks, which is arguably our best DPS skill. And really, most DPS don't even run stam birb or bugs, so bleed misses the mark even harder there.

Skjaldbjorn

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

"Well just make it flat x% without the stipulations". That's how we got here to start with

Unconditional whatever damage buff. Take your pick for PvE it'll probably be fine for PvP.

To your credit here I think the eventual goal is to probably have Warden be the Ice/Bleed damage class. But they're always slow in adjusting things like that. Shalks still being poison is just weird lmao

MEBengalsFan2001

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The change to Piercing Cold was also horrible. Losing 12% damage for no reason, gaining block mitigation so I can stalemate more? Please give us back the 12% damage, get this stalemate garbage out of my build.

Every class needs passive like this to make players make choices between dps or tank. I hope to see more changes to passive like this in future to other classes. I would even like to see role selected putting hard cap on specific stats. This way dps have less health, less resistance and healing output.

xylena_lazarow

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Every class needs passive like this to make players make choices between dps or tank. I hope to see more changes to passive like this in future to other classes. I would even like to see role selected putting hard cap on specific stats. This way dps have less health, less resistance and healing output.

It doesn't do that, you're still going to "dps tank" on a different build. It cripples PvP frost DD for no reason.

Urzigurumash

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I feel like warden is turning into the necro, bizarre changes that make no sense. Removing the passive for having an ice staff equipped sucks as many players love the fantasy of playing an ice mage.

You do realize you can still run a frost staff, yes?

For less damage than a Flame or Lightning staff though right? Or did I miss something..

Once upon a time, but for not very long, the Crit Damage iteration of Glacial Presence had synergy with the then-new Minor Brittle. This let me run Frost Staff on a Glass Cannon to decent effect at a time when the tankier classic MagDen builds were suffering. (Talking about Battlegrounds here)

I'm not sure if Minor Brittle without the old Glacial Presence is enough to beat out Flame and Lightning with this change to Piercing Cold.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am fairly sure the old Glacial Presence passive only interacted with Minor Brittle insofar as giving you crit damage, which we now get from AC abilities and is a very easily capped stat. I don't think bringing that back would actually do anything meaningful. Though perhaps in PVP, I don't know how much crit damage is valued there tbh.

Yes you're right, I guess I'd be back at about the same Power Level I was prior to the revision to Piercing Cold. But that new AC passive doesn't encourage a Frost Staff quite as strongly as the old Glacial Presence.

To be honest, Tanky FrostDen has been maybe just a touch too strong in BGs since that revision.

Tough to say whether an Under 30k HP FrostDen will pack enough damage to justify the low HP, but then again tough to say how Average Max HP shakes out the nerf to Undeath. (Again I'm a BGs player)

But one thing's for sure - with this change to Piercing Cold, the AC passive replacing the old Glacial Presence, AND the recent changes to Flame and Lightning, it seems as though MagDen will be overall less encouraged to front bar a Frost Staff than it has been in quite some time, since about when the Nunatak set was added.

But maybe I'm missing something, or underevaluating the new Direct Damage of Chilled.

gariondavey

Hate all these changes. Please revert this. (PvP perspective)

Faulgor

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

"Well just make it flat x% without the stipulations". That's how we got here to start with

Unconditional whatever damage buff. Take your pick for PvE it'll probably be fine for PvP.

As in frost damage? That's too limiting. DKs for example get Poison + Flame, which covers basically their entire kit. The problem is Warden is super varied;

Birb: Bleed/Magic
Bugs: Bleed/Magic
Winter's: Frost
Arctic: Frost
Shalks: Poison/Magic
Bear: Bleed/Magic
Perma: Frost

Even if you did Bleed + Frost, that still misses skills like bugs' mag morph and Shalks, which is arguably our best DPS skill. And really, most DPS don't even run stam birb or bugs, so bleed misses the mark even harder there.

Honestly I miss the old buff to Magic (and Frost) damage. It was a total dud for Stam Wardens, but opened up a lot of interactions with other skill lines and sets that dealt magic damage.

Since then Wardens have been kind of shoe-horned into being Frost mages - which was lacking at release, and should be a viable play style, but making Wardens depend on a weapon for DPS that is built as a tanking weapon always led to all kinds of disjointed balancing solutions. Now we are swinging back in the other direction - who's going to front bar Frost staff after this change?

IMO Wardens will never get out of this pickle until they add a new tanking staff weapon type (Alteration plz) and free up Frost to be what it always should have been: A Destruction staff.

MEBengalsFan2001

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Every class needs passive like this to make players make choices between dps or tank. I hope to see more changes to passive like this in future to other classes. I would even like to see role selected putting hard cap on specific stats. This way dps have less health, less resistance and healing output.

It doesn't do that, you're still going to "dps tank" on a different build. It cripples PvP frost DD for no reason.

The damage loss when above 30k health will impact pvp. Most Warden in PVP are at 37k+ health. Having less damage will impact their ability to kill another player, however the tanky buff simply means they get more tanky when above 30k health.

GusTheWizard

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

The damage loss when above 30k health will impact pvp. Most Warden in PVP are at 37k+ health. Having less damage will impact their ability to kill another player, however the tanky buff simply means they get more tanky when above 30k health.

Yeah that’s true this just encourages people to build more tanky rather than having damage.

xylena_lazarow

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Yeah that’s true this just encourages people to build more tanky rather than having damage.

Below 30k hp you're running high armor permablock if you want to brawl. Above 30k hp, you're just losing damage so you can keep dropping fat Polars, or you're dropping ice staff for lightning staff and losing your class identity. My Master Ice Staff was gutted with a straight 12% damage nerf to my ranged pressure that I can't easily get back.

Urzigurumash

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Yeah that’s true this just encourages people to build more tanky rather than having damage.

Below 30k hp you're running high armor permablock if you want to brawl. Above 30k hp, you're just losing damage so you can keep dropping fat Polars, or you're dropping ice staff for lightning staff and losing your class identity. My Master Ice Staff was gutted with a straight 12% damage nerf to my ranged pressure that I can't easily get back.

Only 4%, right?

I will say, I used to dislike how many sets had a 4th line of Max HP... it'll be a little tricky but being under 30k on the front and over on the back will clearly be meta for all Wardens. No?