To ZOS from all the pvp magdens

xylena_lazarow · July 10

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I will say, I used to dislike how many sets had a 4th line of Max HP... it'll be a little tricky but being under 30k on the front and over on the back will clearly be meta for all Wardens. No?

Might see wacky things like back bar Plague Doc, but you'll still definitely see the same 40k+ DDs cross healing with Polar, dropping shalks combos on their DW bars. It kills my back bar Master Ice damage and setups like that. So now if I want my hybrid playstyle, I run a different build config for back bar 5pc lightning staff dps. Hooray class identity.

Iriidius · July 10

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Yeah that’s true this just encourages people to build more tanky rather than having damage.

Below 30k hp you're running high armor permablock if you want to brawl. Above 30k hp, you're just losing damage so you can keep dropping fat Polars, or you're dropping ice staff for lightning staff and losing your class identity. My Master Ice Staff was gutted with a straight 12% damage nerf to my ranged pressure that I can't easily get back.

Only 4%, right?

I will say, I used to dislike how many sets had a 4th line of Max HP... it'll be a little tricky but being under 30k on the front and over on the back will clearly be meta for all Wardens. No?

It is even easier when you use sword and shield backbar, you can use the health enchant on shield to get over 30k hp. You can also use trainee shield and backbar set weapon or vice versa getting its 4 piece on frontbar(wpn dmg from wretched/clever or crit from rallyng) and another 1.5k hp backbar only.

Urzigurumash · July 10

Iriidius wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Yeah that’s true this just encourages people to build more tanky rather than having damage.

Below 30k hp you're running high armor permablock if you want to brawl. Above 30k hp, you're just losing damage so you can keep dropping fat Polars, or you're dropping ice staff for lightning staff and losing your class identity. My Master Ice Staff was gutted with a straight 12% damage nerf to my ranged pressure that I can't easily get back.

Only 4%, right?

I will say, I used to dislike how many sets had a 4th line of Max HP... it'll be a little tricky but being under 30k on the front and over on the back will clearly be meta for all Wardens. No?

It is even easier when you use sword and shield backbar, you can use the health enchant on shield to get over 30k hp. You can also use trainee shield and backbar set weapon or vice versa getting its 4 piece on frontbar(wpn dmg from wretched/clever or crit from rallyng) and another 1.5k hp backbar only.

Yep, Endurance SnB lookin nice with the nerf to Undeath

Durham · July 10

From a pvp perspective this is a nerf to class that is not even considered an S tier class. It’s very close to a class ending nerf in PvP. Meanwhile your 2 S tier classes one remains untouched while the other is buffed yet again.

I can see you either running a warden healer, or a Stam warden that will rely more of a hybrid role as a back up healer with some modest damage.

ESO_Nightingale · July 12

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Zos we do not want this

Requiring us to not hit a target to get the heal is terrible, pvp is all about burst healing which every class has access to, it will make this skill very unreliable in pvp forcing us to slot another burst heal, which the class doesn’t currently have.

Edit

I’m conflicted on the piercing cold I think the passive was just weird in general and the new passive isn’t any better it kills ice staff warden in one fell swoop. a change I wouldn’t mind seeing is in addition to what they’ve changed piercing cold to also add 8% frost damage while wielding an ice staff to not completely kill a play style, this way we retain some of the damage we are losing.

Another thing I think would help is changing the warden class script to freezing enemies in place rather then charming them, this is terrible to use for pvp because as a warden you want people in front of you to hit shalks but charming them makes enemies run behind you.

the arctic blast change is horrific. its a terrible dps skill now excluding the chilled proc. it used to be mediocre but the chilled proc more than made up for it, and now its only usable because it has chilled proc. i did some minor testing with an ice staff slotted. with 12 casts of the skill, on average the DoT proc rate for chilled was 45% without charged and 67.5% with charged. the initial cast always applied chilled though. my damage has gone down from roughly 124k-120k to now 117-114k which is a pretty big loss. part of that is due to the blast nerf but i'd argue a bigger portion is due to the loss of the increased damage with an ice staff. i wish they'd have given us back increased frost damage.

that's all BEFORE the healing/stun change. honestly if its so hard to keep it as it was and if you have to nerf magden in pvp, i'd legitimately rather them delete either the stun or the heal and revert the damage loss, and replace the stun on the animal companions line via adding a conal stun to deceptive predator, or buffing the heal for enchanted growth/living trellis on self to exactly the amount blast currently does instantly.

xylena_lazarow · July 12

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

the arctic blast change is horrific.

It's like they're telling us not to bother, just run your PvP Warden as a permablock Polar spam brick.

ItsNotLiving · July 12

I quit the game because I can’t stand being pigeonholed into ice staff on my warden, the new piercing cold passive is going to be very good swap to lightning staff with the new class set and 29.9k health front bar will bring back huge numbers on deep fissure, the undeath passive being nerfed justly will bring back damage metas you could even run one hand shield back bar to bring your health above 30k for the block passive. However the arctic blast change is actually unbelievably silly and is targeting the wrong morph of the skill when every complaint launched at warden players is the fact the game has moved to a health stacking meta and a health based burst heal with a hot attached is unfun to play against.

xylena_lazarow · July 12

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

I quit the game because I can’t stand being pigeonholed into ice staff on my warden, the new piercing cold passive is going to be very good swap to lightning staff

And now I'm quitting Warden because my Master Ice dps got nuked, pigeonholing me into specific DW/Lightning build configs in order to be able to hit hard from range. The other options are just as bizarrely restrictive now, obligating a few specific weird configs and strongly encouraging permablock. Still pigeonholed, now with 100% less class identity.

ItsNotLiving · July 12

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

I quit the game because I can’t stand being pigeonholed into ice staff on my warden, the new piercing cold passive is going to be very good swap to lightning staff

And now I'm quitting Warden because my Master Ice dps got nuked, pigeonholing me into specific DW/Lightning build configs in order to be able to hit hard from range. The other options are just as bizarrely restrictive now, obligating a few specific weird configs and strongly encouraging permablock. Still pigeonholed, now with 100% less class identity.

The class should exist outside of one build that doesn’t even use its damage dealing line to damage. The frost mage thing should be viable (which it still will be if you don’t stack health it will be a 4% nerf) but not at the expense of everything else the class has to offer.

xylena_lazarow · July 12

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

The class should exist outside of one build that doesn’t even use its damage dealing line to damage. The frost mage thing should be viable (which it still will be if you don’t stack health it will be a 4% nerf) but not at the expense of everything else the class has to offer.

Frost mage is now obligated to do 29k hp on their frost DD front bar, and full defensive permablock back bar, you're not brawling with low hp unless you're leaning heavy into block, which the other half of the passive incentivizes also.

Durham · July 12

Its not just an ICE warden however they are the ones that lost pretty much everything in PVP. Stam wardens were also hit by this, most Stam wardens that try to actually deal damage prefer Artic blast so they concentrate more on Weapon damage. Now they forcing Stam wardens to 40k+ health wardens with less mediocre two hander damage.

This change will regulate a Warden to a high health Healer or High health ranged lighting staff (Run Sorc) or High Health Melee (Run Night blade). I already have heard 3 more people in my small pvp guild going to night blades .

So your options are a Tank healer and that's it.

So we are already in the Sorc/NIght Blade meta! NIghblades already make up half of the PVP population. Sorcs can take extreme amount of damage with the best mobility in the game! Nigh blades have cloak and unbelievable healing with crit heals. So why did you just buff them? You now are giving them more crit, and longer armor buffs? You also eliminated counter play on them in stealth?

Do you know how easy it is to avoid a see hidden pot with major and minor expedition already on a class lol. We usually have to 2 to 3 people burn pots to kill a decent Night blade. So we nerf a class that is not in the Meta a strong class yes but not elite! Balance is a huge issue in this game atm. Rang damage is far more efficient and almost as strong as Melee with limited risk! Class balance is horrid!

Skjaldbjorn · July 12

If you ever wondered how pitiful of a state Warden actually was in from a PVE perspective, read through all these Warden threads. It's 99% PVP crocodile tears because Warden was so dead in PVE nobody has played them seriously in ages.

xylena_lazarow · July 12

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

If you ever wondered how pitiful of a state Warden actually was in from a PVE perspective, read through all these Warden threads. It's 99% PVP crocodile tears because Warden was so dead in PVE nobody has played them seriously in ages.

Crocodile tears? Dude they directly screwed my build, a fair stat Warden with Master Ice and Order's Wrath I made thinking it would be safe from nerfs, but no. Now I am playing a heinous proc NB with pulls, as ZOS intended.

MATH_COW · July 13

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Yeah I didn't like this. First they remove the instantaneous stun in favor of a 2 second delay stun and Warden players drop arctic for polar, then they nerf the initial heal by taking away it's guarantee and delay the Dot and reduce the chilled proc.

What a horrible change. If anything this morph should be a lot more desirable compared to Polar wind, but they just keep making it worse for no reason

At the begining I did not liked the 2 seconds delay on the stunt but after some time using it I finally find it better than the instant stunt.
That delay allow you to combo your shalk and your spam or/and you ultimate while you stunt your target to help to kill.
Also saved a lot of dark convergence sneaky rat attack if you react in time, lauching artic blast before you get grabbed can make the stunt happen when the player come close and cancel him.

MATH_COW · July 13

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

StShoot wrote: »

This is once again a case where zos wasted development time. Warden wasnt overperforming anywhere. Not in pve nor in PvP. We curently have Magsorcs that are able to tank a whole server with their shield + streaks, we have blades that can bring you from 100 to 0 in the blink of an eye and for some reason they decided to nerf the Burstheal of the warden,while other classes remain unchanged.
Also the change to piercing cold is terrible, it enabled the warden to play with froststaffs which was a fresh breeze compared to the DW we have to play on all other classes. I dont even get why players complained about piercing cold: You were not forced to play froststaffs, you could use other weapons because those other weapons had their own offensive stat lines unlike the froststaff.

No lol. If you wanted to be even moderately competitive in PVE, your only option was double arena weapons. You either give up a mythic or a 5-piece just to be a "frost mage". It was a TERRIBLE design choice.

Never played the master ice staff on my PvE build (because I don't like it as spam for PvE) and always been good enough.

Skjaldbjorn · July 13

MATH_COW wrote: »

Never played the master ice staff on my PvE build (because I don't like it as spam for PvE) and always been good enough.

Don't know what to tell you dude. There's a very, very good reason there's barely any Warden DPS on logs for patch after patch after patch, and most of them are Magdens of one variety or another.

Skjaldbjorn · July 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

If you ever wondered how pitiful of a state Warden actually was in from a PVE perspective, read through all these Warden threads. It's 99% PVP crocodile tears because Warden was so dead in PVE nobody has played them seriously in ages.

Crocodile tears? Dude they directly screwed my build, a fair stat Warden with Master Ice and Order's Wrath I made thinking it would be safe from nerfs, but no. Now I am playing a heinous proc NB with pulls, as ZOS intended.

You mean like when they butchered the AC passive because they felt it was too strong in PVP?

Or when they butchered the Piercing Cold % damage bonus because they felt it was too strong in PVP?

Whether it was or it wasn't is irrelevant - Zos viewed it that way.

Like I said, this is one instance where PVP Wardens are getting smacked around at a meaningful level to assist PVE. I legit can't name another.

Or I guess the handful of people who actually really love Warden DPS should go back to Arcanist, "as ZOS intended", so the class can be strictly PVP and PVE healers.

I'm not trying to be rude or aggressive, but I started playing right before Morrowind dropped exclusively to play Warden. I've tried to tough it out year after year, and most years I've succeeded and been competitive. The Nightblade meta during Summerset was god awful for Warden, because they couldn't effectively sustain a LA rotation at the time.

But this? This is the worst. By miles. This is the worst spot Warden has ever been in PVE as far as viability and competitive damage output relatively speaking. Warden used to be the "big cleave class", Arc took that from us by miles. We can't compete ST with Templar and Sorc. We can't compete AoE with DK and Arc.

This change won't even likely be enough to see people actually play Warden DPS, because they lack any meaningful group buff or benefit, and generally aren't all that amazing at running support sets. So really, this is throwing a bone to people like me who actually really love Warden and would like to play it in PVE without hurting my group too much.

If this yet again sees a rollback because of PVP, honestly, that'll probably be the final nail in the coffin for me. I enjoy ESO, but Warden is the only class I really connect to and know in and out. I could continue not enjoying the game as an Arc DPS, or this change might keep people like me around.

MATH_COW · July 13

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

If you ever wondered how pitiful of a state Warden actually was in from a PVE perspective, read through all these Warden threads. It's 99% PVP crocodile tears because Warden was so dead in PVE nobody has played them seriously in ages.

Crocodile tears? Dude they directly screwed my build, a fair stat Warden with Master Ice and Order's Wrath I made thinking it would be safe from nerfs, but no. Now I am playing a heinous proc NB with pulls, as ZOS intended.

You mean like when they butchered the AC passive because they felt it was too strong in PVP?

Or when they butchered the Piercing Cold % damage bonus because they felt it was too strong in PVP?

Whether it was or it wasn't is irrelevant - Zos viewed it that way.

Like I said, this is one instance where PVP Wardens are getting smacked around at a meaningful level to assist PVE. I legit can't name another.

Or I guess the handful of people who actually really love Warden DPS should go back to Arcanist, "as ZOS intended", so the class can be strictly PVP and PVE healers.

I'm not trying to be rude or aggressive, but I started playing right before Morrowind dropped exclusively to play Warden. I've tried to tough it out year after year, and most years I've succeeded and been competitive. The Nightblade meta during Summerset was god awful for Warden, because they couldn't effectively sustain a LA rotation at the time.

But this? This is the worst. By miles. This is the worst spot Warden has ever been in PVE as far as viability and competitive damage output relatively speaking. Warden used to be the "big cleave class", Arc took that from us by miles. We can't compete ST with Templar and Sorc. We can't compete AoE with DK and Arc.

This change won't even likely be enough to see people actually play Warden DPS, because they lack any meaningful group buff or benefit, and generally aren't all that amazing at running support sets. So really, this is throwing a bone to people like me who actually really love Warden and would like to play it in PVE without hurting my group too much.

If this yet again sees a rollback because of PVP, honestly, that'll probably be the final nail in the coffin for me. I enjoy ESO, but Warden is the only class I really connect to and know in and out. I could continue not enjoying the game as an Arc DPS, or this change might keep people like me around.

As a only warden player I can relate. I really feel Zenimax want Warden to be only healer.

When I saw the first archive class set they did for warden I really felt they did not wanted to give something DD or Tank, and that new class set seem meh, it doesn't even do bleed damage lol.

IncultaWolf · July 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

So to me it's kind of "take one for the team for a change".

I played Warden out of love. Now it is time to play Nightblade out of hate.

This is what I do, but replace warden with necromancer. Going from necro to nb in pvp legit feels like I have cheats/hacks enabled.

FoJul · July 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

We already told them last patch when they put in the patch notes that they were making the Ice line more tanky that we didn’t want that, they just never listen to us

Just settled on Warden as my new main too, guess I'll have to play NB next patch. Happy now ZOS?

NB slander kinda crazy, you can play DK or Sorc too.

xylena_lazarow · July 13

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

This change won't even likely be enough to see people actually play Warden DPS

Correct. It is a horrible change for both PvP and PvE. The things that break PvP Warden have nothing to do frost staves or damage output, it's always been the overpowered healing and permablock, which they... buffed ?!?!?!?

Skjaldbjorn · July 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

This change won't even likely be enough to see people actually play Warden DPS

Correct. It is a horrible change for both PvP and PvE. The things that break PvP Warden have nothing to do frost staves or damage output, it's always been the overpowered healing and permablock, which they... buffed ?!?!?!?

No, it's a very solid change for PVE. They need more, but at least it's a step in the right direction. Obviously the HP Threshold is just their method of avoiding giving damage to tank builds in PVP. Whether I agree with that decision or not, they've been astoundingly clear about it.

xylena_lazarow · July 13

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Obviously the HP Threshold is just their method of avoiding giving damage to tank builds in PVP.

It does the opposite, it encourages permablock DD, the worst form of "tanks that do damage" you can have.

Skjaldbjorn · July 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Obviously the HP Threshold is just their method of avoiding giving damage to tank builds in PVP.

It does the opposite, it encourages permablock DD, the worst form of "tanks that do damage" you can have.

The only other method I can think of to give a % damage gain without it impacting PVP is to apply the new "Only to monsters" dynamic, which would equally anger PVP players.

xylena_lazarow · July 13

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

The only other method I can think of to give a % damage gain without it impacting PVP is to apply the new "Only to monsters" dynamic, which would equally anger PVP players.

Not our problem to solve, let the professional game devs at ZOS handle it, we just need to communicate that the changes to Piercing Cold and Arctic Blast are inadequate for what actually goes on in PvP and PvE.

Skjaldbjorn · July 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

The only other method I can think of to give a % damage gain without it impacting PVP is to apply the new "Only to monsters" dynamic, which would equally anger PVP players.

Not our problem to solve, let the professional game devs at ZOS handle it, we just need to communicate that the changes to Piercing Cold and Arctic Blast are inadequate for what actually goes on in PvP and PvE.

But see, they're not. From a PVE perspective, it's fine. They could tack 2-4% frost staff damage back on, but outside of that, this change is perfectly reasonable. It's exclusively PVP where it's an issue.

StShoot · July 15

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

The only other method I can think of to give a % damage gain without it impacting PVP is to apply the new "Only to monsters" dynamic, which would equally anger PVP players.

Not our problem to solve, let the professional game devs at ZOS handle it, we just need to communicate that the changes to Piercing Cold and Arctic Blast are inadequate for what actually goes on in PvP and PvE.

But see, they're not. From a PVE perspective, it's fine. They could tack 2-4% frost staff damage back on, but outside of that, this change is perfectly reasonable. It's exclusively PVP where it's an issue.

So forcing every class into a dual wield / 2handed playstyle is not an issue? You are contradicting yourself:
On one side you complain that you are currently forced to play a froststaff on the other side you are completly fine with the fact, that everyone will be forced to play dualwield in the next patch.
Than you claim that 2%+ the crit chance of daggers (BIS weapon for PvE btw.) is much worse than the current version of frosstaffs, but one comment later you say that 2/4% +0 would make up for the dps difference between those two weapons.

Skjaldbjorn · July 15

StShoot wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

The only other method I can think of to give a % damage gain without it impacting PVP is to apply the new "Only to monsters" dynamic, which would equally anger PVP players.

Not our problem to solve, let the professional game devs at ZOS handle it, we just need to communicate that the changes to Piercing Cold and Arctic Blast are inadequate for what actually goes on in PvP and PvE.

But see, they're not. From a PVE perspective, it's fine. They could tack 2-4% frost staff damage back on, but outside of that, this change is perfectly reasonable. It's exclusively PVP where it's an issue.

So forcing every class into a dual wield / 2handed playstyle is not an issue? You are contradicting yourself:
On one side you complain that you are currently forced to play a froststaff on the other side you are completly fine with the fact, that everyone will be forced to play dualwield in the next patch.
Than you claim that 2%+ the crit chance of daggers (BIS weapon for PvE btw.) is much worse than the current version of frosstaffs, but one comment later you say that 2/4% +0 would make up for the dps difference between those two weapons.

I didn't say it would make it up. It shouldn't. Melee weapons should deal more damage, and always have. Frost staff needs to be competitive with other staves. You want them to be competitive with dual wield. I never said that.

BananaBender · July 15

The artic blast changes are absolutely horrible. A heal that doesn't heal when you are in danger isn't a heal at all.

Overall the warden changes are good for Stamina Warden. Still wont be nearly enough to bring them to the level of other classes in terms of dungeons and trials, because parse numbers doesn't matter one bit when it comes to trials (just look at sorc). For Magicka Warden, these changes felt quite bad. While it was only a 4% loss if you are running an ice staff. Frostden damage was okay but nothing to write home about, and now it's even worse. On a parse you might still get okay numbers with the old setup with Master's ice, but as soon as you have to deal any sort of cleave damage ice staff turns into an absolute joke compared to the alternatives. So unless you want to deliberately deal less damage you have no reason to run Ice Staves anymore, which I find really sad. Your best bet is to probably run Asylum Inferno and spam Force Pulse, you are still stuck on double arena weapons, because magicka spammables are awful without those, so no changes there.

At this point Magden is probably better off slotting DW and use throwing knife as spammable, so they can provide at least some debuffs for the group and not be a total disappointment.

In short, Frost Warden only makes sense if you want to roleplay, magicka warden is okay-ish but not good, suffers from the exact same problems it suffered previously from. Stamina Warden is good, though anything but stuck using the same DW/2h setup as almost every other class is.

haelgaan · July 16

terrible change.

imagine being a warden tank holding the boss and adds on you and needing your AB burst heal right now and you get... nothing.

imagine being a warden soloing vMA, vVH, IA, or any group dungeon, and you're being swarmed by mobs so you hit your AB to get a burst heal to stay alive while you freeze them all and you get... dead.

i could live with a 10% nerf of the heal, but either a delay of the heal or making the heal go away if anyone happens to be standing near you ruins the skill.