To ZOS from all the pvp magdens

GusTheWizard

Zos we do not want this


Requiring us to not hit a target to get the heal is terrible, pvp is all about burst healing which every class has access to, it will make this skill very unreliable in pvp forcing us to slot another burst heal, which the class doesn’t currently have.

Edit

I’m conflicted on the piercing cold I think the passive was just weird in general and the new passive isn’t any better it kills ice staff warden in one fell swoop. a change I wouldn’t mind seeing is in addition to what they’ve changed piercing cold to also add 8% frost damage while wielding an ice staff to not completely kill a play style, this way we retain some of the damage we are losing.

Another thing I think would help is changing the warden class script to freezing enemies in place rather then charming them, this is terrible to use for pvp because as a warden you want people in front of you to hit shalks but charming them makes enemies run behind you.

xylena_lazarow

The change to Piercing Cold was also horrible. Losing 12% damage for no reason, gaining block mitigation so I can stalemate more? Please give us back the 12% damage, get this stalemate garbage out of my build.

GusTheWizard

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The change to Piercing Cold was also horrible. Losing 12% damage for no reason, gaining block mitigation so I can stalemate more? Please give us back the 12% damage, get this stalemate garbage out of my build.

We already told them last patch when they put in the patch notes that they were making the Ice line more tanky that we didn’t want that, they just never listen to us

xylena_lazarow

GusTheWizard wrote: »

We already told them last patch when they put in the patch notes that they were making the Ice line more tanky that we didn’t want that, they just never listen to us

Just settled on Warden as my new main too, guess I'll have to play NB next patch. Happy now ZOS?

Joy_Division

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Zos we do not want this


Requiring us to not hit a target to get the heal is terrible, pvp is all about burst healing which every class has access to, it will make this skill very unreliable in pvp forcing us to slot another burst heal, which the class doesn’t currently have.

I don't play Wardens and I'm as annoyed as everyone else facing 35K HP damage dealers who have this burst heal.

But the unpredictability of a skill is a terrible idea. It's just bad. People are just going to slot the Scribing Heal skill and leave this unpredictable and unreliable signature class skill in the trash.

fred4

@Joy_Division: Except that the scribing burst heal skill is either an expensive or delayed group heal with a lowish tooltip, or an equally uncontrollable "area" targeted heal. It will go to the lowest health ally in the area, whether you are grouped with them, or not. And I assure you that ganker is safely in cloak, not even welcoming your heal nerfing their damage .

GusTheWizard

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't play Wardens and I'm as annoyed as everyone else facing 35K HP damage dealers who have this burst heal.

The thing is Wardens who have 35k health don’t use Arctic Blast they use Polar Wind so this argument is invalid

tsaescishoeshiner

As a PvE warden (mainly the Archive), I find this completely unusable. A delayed burst heal is bad enough, but making it conditional on a delayed stun not going off?

It should give you something for using it, even if it's a half-strength damage shield or something.

As it is on Live, the burst heal is nice. The DoT is nice. Maybe the stun could be made very short for players, but longer for monsters?

Joy_Division

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't play Wardens and I'm as annoyed as everyone else facing 35K HP damage dealers who have this burst heal.

The thing is Wardens who have 35k health don’t use Arctic Blast they use Polar Wind so this argument is invalid

Unpredictable skills are a bad idea. Artic Blast still does function as heal for Wardens with that health (which I use in Infinite Archive), so the augment is valid.

fred4

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

As a PvE warden (mainly the Archive), I find this completely unusable. A delayed burst heal is bad enough, but making it conditional on a delayed stun not going off?

It should give you something for using it, even if it's a half-strength damage shield or something.

As it is on Live, the burst heal is nice. The DoT is nice. Maybe the stun could be made very short for players, but longer for monsters?

Appreciate the idea, but PvPers will always break stuns, unless they are out of stamina. It's a reflex and the latter is rare for experienced players. If you made stuns very short, let's say 1 second, this could in fact be very powerful and oppressive. It might not leave the target a chance to break free and get CC immunity. This might leave them open to being chain-stunned. Some NPC stuns are so short, this happens and it's nasty.

GusTheWizard

Joy_Division wrote: »

Unpredictable skills are a bad idea. Artic Blast still does function as heal for Wardens with that health (which I use in Infinite Archive), so the augment is valid.

Did you read the post? I’m the one that said unpredictable skills are bad. The part that is invalid is that any warden that Has 35K Health doesn’t use Arctic blast so this change doesn’t fix the 35k health pvp warden dd problem

LittlePinkDot

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Zos we do not want this


Requiring us to not hit a target to get the heal is terrible, pvp is all about burst healing which every class has access to, it will make this skill very unreliable in pvp forcing us to slot another burst heal, which the class doesn’t currently have.

Why aren't you using polar wind?

GusTheWizard

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Why aren't you using polar wind?

Because I like the stun and damage from arctic blast also I have 30k in bgs and 6900 spell damage so my arctic blast burst heal is WAY bigger than my polar wind burst heal.

Stafford197

Wow this is REALLY AWFUL design. Just purely unfun and bad.

SMH

xDeusEJRx

Yeah I didn't like this. First they remove the instantaneous stun in favor of a 2 second delay stun and Warden players drop arctic for polar, then they nerf the initial heal by taking away it's guarantee and delay the Dot and reduce the chilled proc.

What a horrible change. If anything this morph should be a lot more desirable compared to Polar wind, but they just keep making it worse for no reason

IncultaWolf

I feel like warden is turning into the necro, bizarre changes that make no sense. Removing the passive for having an ice staff equipped sucks as many players love the fantasy of playing an ice mage.

Skjaldbjorn

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I feel like warden is turning into the necro, bizarre changes that make no sense. Removing the passive for having an ice staff equipped sucks as many players love the fantasy of playing an ice mage.

You do realize you can still run a frost staff, yes?

Urzigurumash

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I feel like warden is turning into the necro, bizarre changes that make no sense. Removing the passive for having an ice staff equipped sucks as many players love the fantasy of playing an ice mage.

You do realize you can still run a frost staff, yes?

For less damage than a Flame or Lightning staff though right? Or did I miss something..

Once upon a time, but for not very long, the Crit Damage iteration of Glacial Presence had synergy with the then-new Minor Brittle. This let me run Frost Staff on a Glass Cannon to decent effect at a time when the tankier classic MagDen builds were suffering. (Talking about Battlegrounds here)

I'm not sure if Minor Brittle without the old Glacial Presence is enough to beat out Flame and Lightning with this change to Piercing Cold.

ESO_Nightingale

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I feel like warden is turning into the necro, bizarre changes that make no sense. Removing the passive for having an ice staff equipped sucks as many players love the fantasy of playing an ice mage.

You do realize you can still run a frost staff, yes?

For less damage than a Flame or Lightning staff though right? Or did I miss something..

Once upon a time, but for not very long, the Crit Damage iteration of Glacial Presence had synergy with the then-new Minor Brittle. This let me run Frost Staff on a Glass Cannon to decent effect at a time when the tankier classic MagDen builds were suffering. (Talking about Battlegrounds here)

I'm not sure if Minor Brittle without the old Glacial Presence is enough to beat out Flame and Lightning with this change to Piercing Cold.

It definitely won't in an organised group. Realistically, the comparison is going to be between the frost reach chilled proc damage and the direct/dot+status damage from shock/fire.

NuarBlack

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I feel like warden is turning into the necro, bizarre changes that make no sense. Removing the passive for having an ice staff equipped sucks as many players love the fantasy of playing an ice mage.

You do realize you can still run a frost staff, yes?

For less damage than a Flame or Lightning staff though right? Or did I miss something..

Once upon a time, but for not very long, the Crit Damage iteration of Glacial Presence had synergy with the then-new Minor Brittle. This let me run Frost Staff on a Glass Cannon to decent effect at a time when the tankier classic MagDen builds were suffering. (Talking about Battlegrounds here)

I'm not sure if Minor Brittle without the old Glacial Presence is enough to beat out Flame and Lightning with this change to Piercing Cold.

This I don't want to have to equip a non ice staff to be optimal. But I think the move is to push for a damage bonus for frost staffs in the destruction staff line now. My vote is for a ruffian style bonus where you do increased damage to slowed and rooted targets with a way to proc it on bosses and other targets immune to those.

Skjaldbjorn

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I feel like warden is turning into the necro, bizarre changes that make no sense. Removing the passive for having an ice staff equipped sucks as many players love the fantasy of playing an ice mage.

You do realize you can still run a frost staff, yes?

For less damage than a Flame or Lightning staff though right? Or did I miss something..

Once upon a time, but for not very long, the Crit Damage iteration of Glacial Presence had synergy with the then-new Minor Brittle. This let me run Frost Staff on a Glass Cannon to decent effect at a time when the tankier classic MagDen builds were suffering. (Talking about Battlegrounds here)

I'm not sure if Minor Brittle without the old Glacial Presence is enough to beat out Flame and Lightning with this change to Piercing Cold.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am fairly sure the old Glacial Presence passive only interacted with Minor Brittle insofar as giving you crit damage, which we now get from AC abilities and is a very easily capped stat. I don't think bringing that back would actually do anything meaningful. Though perhaps in PVP, I don't know how much crit damage is valued there tbh.

SkaiFaith

Solo Warden PvEer - I don't like the direction.
People are already asking to also nerf Polar Wind for PvP. If this trend continues, Wardens will no longer be good to solo hard content, like Archive.

To me Wardens on live were completely fine.
While I don't PvP, what I get is that Warden's unique play style let the player stack a lot of health gaining some skills that do more damage or more healing scaling on health as a reward for the risk of constantly being low on Stamina and Magicka with low sustain.
This was making the class so exciting to play!

Changing bonuses for high health constraining the player to the tank role, nerfing the healing and/or damage, and removing the frosty theme... What does remain of Warden's prior identity?
And solo Wardens will have a hard time with both damage and healing reduced - even more if Polar Wind is going to get nerfed next based on PvPers complaints.

Please, just don't. This direction is bad for so many...

(Btw, wouldn't it be better to discuss this in the official class feedback thread? Do they read here too?)

StShoot

This is once again a case where zos wasted development time. Warden wasnt overperforming anywhere. Not in pve nor in PvP. We curently have Magsorcs that are able to tank a whole server with their shield + streaks, we have blades that can bring you from 100 to 0 in the blink of an eye and for some reason they decided to nerf the Burstheal of the warden,while other classes remain unchanged.
Also the change to piercing cold is terrible, it enabled the warden to play with froststaffs which was a fresh breeze compared to the DW we have to play on all other classes. I dont even get why players complained about piercing cold: You were not forced to play froststaffs, you could use other weapons because those other weapons had their own offensive stat lines unlike the froststaff.

xylena_lazarow

StShoot wrote: »

You were not forced to play froststaffs, you could use other weapons because those other weapons had their own offensive stat lines unlike the froststaff.

It's even worse because they just buffed the damage output of permablock DD, and obligated players into that sort of spec if they expect us to brawl with below 30k hp. I'd rather fight against MagSorcs than permablock.

Skjaldbjorn

StShoot wrote: »

This is once again a case where zos wasted development time. Warden wasnt overperforming anywhere. Not in pve nor in PvP. We curently have Magsorcs that are able to tank a whole server with their shield + streaks, we have blades that can bring you from 100 to 0 in the blink of an eye and for some reason they decided to nerf the Burstheal of the warden,while other classes remain unchanged.
Also the change to piercing cold is terrible, it enabled the warden to play with froststaffs which was a fresh breeze compared to the DW we have to play on all other classes. I dont even get why players complained about piercing cold: You were not forced to play froststaffs, you could use other weapons because those other weapons had their own offensive stat lines unlike the froststaff.

No lol. If you wanted to be even moderately competitive in PVE, your only option was double arena weapons. You either give up a mythic or a 5-piece just to be a "frost mage". It was a TERRIBLE design choice.

xylena_lazarow

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

No lol. If you wanted to be even moderately competitive in PVE, your only option was double arena weapons. You either give up a mythic or a 5-piece just to be a "frost mage". It was a TERRIBLE design choice.

It's even worse now because it buffs and encourages permablock PvP DD builds at either end. Under 30k hp? Jam block your back bar SnB, enjoy an inexplicable 10% more damage on your front bar DW ult dumps. Over 30k hp? Jam block your back bar ice staff, take zero damage while still spamming fat Polars.

Skjaldbjorn

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

No lol. If you wanted to be even moderately competitive in PVE, your only option was double arena weapons. You either give up a mythic or a 5-piece just to be a "frost mage". It was a TERRIBLE design choice.

It's even worse now because it buffs and encourages permablock PvP DD builds at either end. Under 30k hp? Jam block your back bar SnB, enjoy an inexplicable 10% more damage on your front bar DW ult dumps. Over 30k hp? Jam block your back bar ice staff, take zero damage while still spamming fat Polars.

It literally can't be worse than tying a class to a weapon by force. From a game design perspective, especially in a game like ESO where "freedom" is the mantra, there factually cannot be a worse design idea than what they did previously. Removing the passive from the game entirely would actually be a better choice.

Stafford197

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Solo Warden PvEer - I don't like the direction.
People are already asking to also nerf Polar Wind for PvP. If this trend continues, Wardens will no longer be good to solo hard content, like Archive.

To me Wardens on live were completely fine.
While I don't PvP, what I get is that Warden's unique play style let the player stack a lot of health gaining some skills that do more damage or more healing scaling on health as a reward for the risk of constantly being low on Stamina and Magicka with low sustain.
This was making the class so exciting to play!

Changing bonuses for high health constraining the player to the tank role, nerfing the healing and/or damage, and removing the frosty theme... What does remain of Warden's prior identity?
And solo Wardens will have a hard time with both damage and healing reduced - even more if Polar Wind is going to get nerfed next based on PvPers complaints.

Please, just don't. This direction is bad for so many...

(Btw, wouldn't it be better to discuss this in the official class feedback thread? Do they read here too?)

[snip]

Your best shot is to make content as a content creator to get your points across, to directly tell a Dev, or for the outcry on an issue to be so large that it can’t be ignored. [snip]

[edited for minor bashing]

StShoot

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

StShoot wrote: »

This is once again a case where zos wasted development time. Warden wasnt overperforming anywhere. Not in pve nor in PvP. We curently have Magsorcs that are able to tank a whole server with their shield + streaks, we have blades that can bring you from 100 to 0 in the blink of an eye and for some reason they decided to nerf the Burstheal of the warden,while other classes remain unchanged.
Also the change to piercing cold is terrible, it enabled the warden to play with froststaffs which was a fresh breeze compared to the DW we have to play on all other classes. I dont even get why players complained about piercing cold: You were not forced to play froststaffs, you could use other weapons because those other weapons had their own offensive stat lines unlike the froststaff.

No lol. If you wanted to be even moderately competitive in PVE, your only option was double arena weapons. You either give up a mythic or a 5-piece just to be a "frost mage". It was a TERRIBLE design choice.

Why tho? Because of the 12 % of the froststaff whích is probably still inferior to dualdaggers? OR because the tooltips of the warden are so low that you needed the dmg increase of the Arena Weapons? If the later is the case than i would like to know why this passive needed to be changed instead of just increasing the dps of the warden abillitys by 8% ? And if the Former is the case than again, the crit buff of the daggers is better than the 12 % flat dmg from the froststaff.
Moreover you will still run Dual arena Weapons, because if it was the best for the dps before the patch, than it will still be the best after the 8% increase.

xylena_lazarow

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

It literally can't be worse than tying a class to a weapon by force.

Yeah I get that it was bad for PvE but Warden had great build diversity in PvP, you had the old school 2h/SnB Dizzy brawlers, DW/SnB brawlers, DW/Ice hybrids, Ice/Ice mages, Ice/Resto mages, comp group DDs, and more. Now a lot of Warden builds are obligated towards permablock, either to enable brawling below 30k hp, or to be a brick above 30k hp.

Skjaldbjorn

StShoot wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

StShoot wrote: »

This is once again a case where zos wasted development time. Warden wasnt overperforming anywhere. Not in pve nor in PvP. We curently have Magsorcs that are able to tank a whole server with their shield + streaks, we have blades that can bring you from 100 to 0 in the blink of an eye and for some reason they decided to nerf the Burstheal of the warden,while other classes remain unchanged.
Also the change to piercing cold is terrible, it enabled the warden to play with froststaffs which was a fresh breeze compared to the DW we have to play on all other classes. I dont even get why players complained about piercing cold: You were not forced to play froststaffs, you could use other weapons because those other weapons had their own offensive stat lines unlike the froststaff.

No lol. If you wanted to be even moderately competitive in PVE, your only option was double arena weapons. You either give up a mythic or a 5-piece just to be a "frost mage". It was a TERRIBLE design choice.

Why tho? Because of the 12 % of the froststaff whích is probably still inferior to dualdaggers? OR because the tooltips of the warden are so low that you needed the dmg increase of the Arena Weapons? If the later is the case than i would like to know why this passive needed to be changed instead of just increasing the dps of the warden abillitys by 8% ? And if the Former is the case than again, the crit buff of the daggers is better than the 12 % flat dmg from the froststaff.
Moreover you will still run Dual arena Weapons, because if it was the best for the dps before the patch, than it will still be the best after the 8% increase.

It likely won't. Daggers, on a level playing field, beats Staves. Always have, always will. A 12% gain is a massive swing, especially when paired with things like the Master weapon damage buff. The fact that it performed reasonably well without a second 5 piece or a mythic (depends on which variant you skewed) shows how overtuned 12% actually is. Usually, double arena weapons is for niche encounters (like Taleria, for example).

For Warden, it was their entire identity. That's disgusting.