Creation copying without permission using EHT

PrincessOfThieves

ThelerisTelvanni wrote: »

There is one more thing I'd like to add to this discussion:
I've been playing Minecraft for many years, often in Multiplayer. I have a friend with almost zero creativety and he was super frustrated with it. Whenever I was thinking up a more of less good loocking build he was stressed about his lack of creative vision.

At some point he started to lock at the creations of the streamers/YouTubers he watched and tryed to recreate the builds. And he was super happy when he found build tutorials that made it easyer for him. He was still frustrated that he did not have a creative vision of his own, but he was happy to at least have a nice locking build for himself.

He was also hoping he'd become a better builder, but up until this day I have not seen him do his own builds. Whenever we play togeter he always copys someone elses build.

This kinda sounds like coloring paint by numbers pictures.
But yeah, copying something from a video still requires some effort. Pressing copy and paste buttons doesn't.

tsaescishoeshiner

Can people talk more about what it felt like to see their build copied? And whether you saw it in an EHT listing, submitted in a competition, or just in someone's private house you visited.

Edit: Specifically, I'm curious if explaining why it feels bad to experience that will help people out here, since not everyone sees it as a bad feeling or a moral issue.

BetweenMidgets

Thanks for passing this along, Kevin!

I hope there can be some resolution reached that doesn't require Inspection Mode to go away.

At this point I have been doing housing for a while, and I know what furnishings are what now. However, I remember when I first started decorating ... I didn't know what ANYTHING was. Once I came across a Hobbit house build that used the 'Redguard Enclosure, Arc' and I wanted to know what that furnishing piece was SO badly!! I was still new to the game and my friend group wasn't much into housing, and the one that was had no idea either.
The only way I ended up finding out was my friend was watching Jhart's stream about 2 weeks later and saw the furnishing in a build he was previewing and my friend asked what it was in chat, and Jhart answered! A bit of a circuitous way to find out the furnishing, and I would have LOVED to have the Inspection Mode feature when I first started decorating.

I would really hate having the Inspect feature go away, but I hope there is a solution that can be found!

Ayalockheart

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

Thanks for passing this along, Kevin!

I hope there can be some resolution reached that doesn't require Inspection Mode to go away.

At this point I have been doing housing for a while, and I know what furnishings are what now. However, I remember when I first started decorating ... I didn't know what ANYTHING was. Once I came across a Hobbit house build that used the 'Redguard Enclosure, Arc' and I wanted to know what that furnishing piece was SO badly!! I was still new to the game and my friend group wasn't much into housing, and the one that was had no idea either.
The only way I ended up finding out was my friend was watching Jhart's stream about 2 weeks later and saw the furnishing in a build he was previewing and my friend asked what it was in chat, and Jhart answered! A bit of a circuitous way to find out the furnishing, and I would have LOVED to have the Inspection Mode feature when I first started decorating.

I would really hate having the Inspect feature go away, but I hope there is a solution that can be found!

It doesn’t need necessarily to be removed. Also, if you are in the right housing communities you can openly ask with a screenshot and we will be more than happy to tell you what furniture it is and I am well aware that not always the inspection feature gets range depending on how and where the cobbled items are placed.

Mloking

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi @Mloking. We’re going to take this to the dev team and chat about this. Just seeing this now, so probably won’t be able to investigate until next week. Just wanted to follow up that this has been seen and will be escalated to be addressed.

Thanks for posting this.

Hello, thank you for taking interest in this and your reply, wanted to ask if there is any progress being made? Thank you in advance. 🦎

swankery

If its something that can be easily implemented to prevent, like only those with decorator permissions can copy, it would prevent the bad feelings of having your time and creativity stolen over and over again.

EHT is a wonderfull addon and I love seeing Cardinal succeed in bringing its features into the game for console and addon-free peoples.I hope that there is an easy and quick way to solve this.

If someone approches me and asks me to rebuild a home I have created, for them to have in thier home- that is a compliment.
If they drop into any random home they like and copy-paste without any credit, publish it to the hub or put it on Youtube and win contests with it and think no one will notice- we see you.

Rishikesa108

I take advantage of this topic to confess and to lift a burden from my heart.
I have been doing housing since I started playing ESO and I must confess that in the early days I copied houses, both through videos and by visiting them and then trying to recreate them using the same items.
At that time EHT already existed, but certainly not inspection mode. I tried to understand how an object was built and then I recreated it similarly.
I have never participated in housing contests with those houses, also because I have participated in very few contests even with houses of my own unique design, given that I am convinced that contests are influenced by acquaintances and sympathies.
Later I destroyed those houses, or removed them from publication with EHT, and completely remade them with my own ideas.
I believe that copying a house, when one starts housing, can come naturally.
But there must be an effort to understand how it is made and built and it must never be possible to recreate it with a click.
I use EHT, but actually today I wouldn't even know how to use it to reproduce a house.
Maybe because I don't use PTS and therefore I never needed to learn this function.
I believe that this copy/paste function on your houses, i.e. from the PTS to the real game, is very useful for those who usually create on the PTS and then transfer the creation to the real game.
Obviously it must be prohibited to do this with other people's houses.

Amottica

I agree with the OP and think this level of data access should be blocked from the add-ons. It is rather lame that someone could take someone else's creation and then make it their own, as though they did the hard work.

There is a new thread that basically asks Zenimax to add the means to do this to the base game. I have linked it below.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/661866/u43-home-tours-visitor-permission-settings-need-updated-as-well

Sythen88411

swankery wrote: »

If its something that can be easily implemented to prevent, like only those with decorator permissions can copy, it would prevent the bad feelings of having your time and creativity stolen over and over again.

EHT is a wonderfull addon and I love seeing Cardinal succeed in bringing its features into the game for console and addon-free peoples.I hope that there is an easy and quick way to solve this.

If someone approches me and asks me to rebuild a home I have created, for them to have in thier home- that is a compliment.
If they drop into any random home they like and copy-paste without any credit, publish it to the hub or put it on Youtube and win contests with it and think no one will notice- we see you.

Happens to me just not to long ago. They were a officer of a guild to. When they were caught red handed by other officers they didn't say much but sry. Worst part of it all is the next day they took 130mill from the guild bank and alot of valuable items dipped and changed there name. Funny thing is that all ya gotta do is catch them on a toon name msg the toon name and the @ name pops up. Can't rechange for 42 hours so that gives the guild a good amount of time to mass report what they did

aetherial_heavenn

Rishikesa108 wrote: »

I take advantage of this topic to confess and to lift a burden from my heart.
I have been doing housing since I started playing ESO and I must confess that in the early days I copied houses, both through videos and by visiting them and then trying to recreate them using the same items.
At that time EHT already existed, but certainly not inspection mode. I tried to understand how an object was built and then I recreated it similarly.

snipped

We all look at art to learn. We inspect musicians' gear and string guages and amp settings to try to reproduce their sound. We get inspired by others and flattered when they imitate our successes. There is no shame in either, in my opinion.

I, too, toured houses when I started building to look to see how a thing was made and then tried to reproduce it myself. (Still love looking and getting inspired). This is learning from others and I do not know a single houser who minds if you borrow an idea or even part of an execution. Most won't even mind if you 'steal' a good toilet cobble for your otherwise original bath room, for example. Plenty of art students spend hours copying famous art in galleries to learn how it is done and to improve. What they don't do is call it their own!!! I agree this is the issue- if people can use the in game Inspect function and then EHT to copy others' builds.

The OP and others have had someone click 2 buttons, ie do the equivalent of a making colour photocopy on good art paper of another's drawing, or a making a digital recording of someone's music without permission. Then the plagiarist has passed the copy off to everyone else as their own work. And in some instances have made gold from doing so.

This is quite different from my posting a 'how to make an exact copy of my bathroom' video. In that case I am giving permission to copy and use the information. All character combat build and costume videos fall into this category. I am amazed some people in this thread cannot see the difference between out right plagiarism and using open classrooms!

(Well not exactly amazed... it seems pretty typical of the win at all costs, making art is useless unless it gets you rich, appropriation isn't stealing if I do it too you but not vice versa, value system we seem have sunk into. sigh.)

TL; DR
Copying an entire piece of art, music, housing, or whatever, without permission is not acceptable to most people, and claiming it as your own work is even worse.
Allowing F5/inspect only to be used by people with decorator permission from the owner of the house would likely solve the worst offences, for now.

Ayalockheart

Rishikesa108 wrote: »

I take advantage of this topic to confess and to lift a burden from my heart.
I have been doing housing since I started playing ESO and I must confess that in the early days I copied houses, both through videos and by visiting them and then trying to recreate them using the same items.
At that time EHT already existed, but certainly not inspection mode. I tried to understand how an object was built and then I recreated it similarly.
I have never participated in housing contests with those houses, also because I have participated in very few contests even with houses of my own unique design, given that I am convinced that contests are influenced by acquaintances and sympathies.
Later I destroyed those houses, or removed them from publication with EHT, and completely remade them with my own ideas.
I believe that copying a house, when one starts housing, can come naturally.
But there must be an effort to understand how it is made and built and it must never be possible to recreate it with a click.
I use EHT, but actually today I wouldn't even know how to use it to reproduce a house.
Maybe because I don't use PTS and therefore I never needed to learn this function.
I believe that this copy/paste function on your houses, i.e. from the PTS to the real game, is very useful for those who usually create on the PTS and then transfer the creation to the real game.
Obviously it must be prohibited to do this with other people's houses.

Thank you for sharing your experience, @Rishikesa108 . It takes a lot of courage and honesty to admit to past actions that you now recognize as not ideal. Your journey from replicating houses to creating your own unique designs is commendable. It's clear that you value creativity and integrity in your housing projects.

The fact that you eventually destroyed or removed those early houses and replaced them with your original ideas shows a deep commitment to authenticity and personal growth. Your perspective on the use of tools like EHT, and your belief in the importance of understanding and building things yourself, reflects a genuine passion for the art of housing.

Your honesty not only lifts a burden from your heart but also sets a positive example for others in the community. Thank you for being open and for your dedication to improving both your own work and the integrity of the housing community as a whole.

bayushi2005

Oh, this is so sad. This is one of the things that actually kept me from posting anything on the forums. Nowadays I seldomly open my houses because... every time I see a bit of my build copied and then submitted to a contest something dies in me and I feel absolutely gutted.
My houses are very personal, they mean a lot to me, they tell a story (often to me only). They are my wow moments, my experiences, my moods which I have turned into 3-dimensional collages.
If one copies it without a second thought, without any changes...I feel... violated. Someone has just taken a part of me and copied it mindlessly because... Why actually?

I used to, at least partially, hide my builds behind ridiculous precision, achievement furnishings and EHT animations.
Linked object animations have been broken for years, precision is not an issue with copy-paste, therefore, the only way to actually protect one's build is to make it obnoxiously expensive and/or use hard to get furnishings. And... It sucks, because it's limiting.

I barely visit other people's houses or watch housing streams because it affects how I build. If you look at a cobble as a solution to a problem, you may notice that knowing a way to solve it will affect how you solve new instances of similar problems Because it seems familiar, because it works, because it's easier to recall.
But that's me. I do not expect anyone to do the same.

At the end of the day, I have a number of open houses and everybody is always welcome, free to roam, have fun, invite friends, get the booze going. Please, kindly, clean up when leaving. Get inspiration, don't copy.

I understand that there is a value in "manual copying": one learns their trade - how to work with furnishings, what size they are, how they rotate, balancing the lighting, micro-angles ect. But hell, don't post it as your own or submit to a contest.

I also understand that "getting a similar result" happens, but considering the amount of furniture we have to choose from, it is not very likely. Striking similarities are rare.

Copy-pasting a house teaches one nothing, they won't learn from it. No gains, just grief to the majority of creators.

It is hard to believe that seeing a literal copy of a house which took dozens or hundreds of hours to complete means nothing to it's creator, that it's a compliment of sorts. Manual re-creation, when someone invested some time into building a similar thing by themselves, maybe. Clicking copy-paste, yeah, nope.

What is really sad is that more people will start closing their houses or severely restrict access. No forum posts. No streamer visits. Trusted people only.
Our Community may shrink.

Would love to see ZOS addressing this issue sooner rather than later.

There, just my sad voice.

Mloking

nathamarath

I think housers could be more open on this matter. As with every art there will people who cover your art. Look at music and imagine singers forbidding others to sing their songs. Also, I find -with all respect- some copies are great as well, sometimes even better, sometimes worse, sometimes, well, copies. We can learn from the ones we inspire and vice versa.

As a compromise one could enhance the ingame housing tours with the opportunity of CCs in which you can state that you do not wish your work to be copied at all, or not for contests, or copied with naming you, or copied with naming you and allowing them to further use and modify the build, and so on.. this may also protect and promote the not so well known builds. In addition, there could be a housing hub site, where people show off their builds including a furniture list, which could demonstrate respect to the first creators on one side and the learning creators on the other - advantaging both, PC and consoles housers

MoonPile

nathamarath wrote: »

I think housers could be more open on this matter. As with every art there will people who cover your art. Look at music and imagine singers forbidding others to sing their songs. Also, I find -with all respect- some copies are great as well, sometimes even better, sometimes worse, sometimes, well, copies. We can learn from the ones we inspire and vice versa.

As a compromise one could enhance the ingame housing tours with the opportunity of CCs in which you can state that you do not wish your work to be copied at all, or not for contests, or copied with naming you, or copied with naming you and allowing them to further use and modify the build, and so on.. this may also protect and promote the not so well known builds. In addition, there could be a housing hub site, where people show off their builds including a furniture list, which could demonstrate respect to the first creators on one side and the learning creators on the other - advantaging both, PC and consoles housers

It's absolutely not OK to copy creations without permission in the arts, especially for monetary gain. That's why Copyright Law exists. Copy-pasting as Mloking is showing and inspiration are two wholly different things.

Housing creations can be thought of as similar to collage, which is also protected IRL, as are remixes in music. The assets are ZOS's, but the creations people make using them are, to varying degrees, transformative and original. Of course we won't have protection by IRL laws, but at the very least we as a community could hopefully agree that in-game "monetary" gains, such as contest entries and winnings, are not OK.

Just as in the arts IRL, within the housing community people share gladly, offering their builds for visitation and inspiration, showing their cobbles and how to make them, make addons, and so on. We draw the line when someone blatantly copies sans either permission or credit, and tries to benefit from it.


P.S. Since I said "monetary gains, I should also mention Fair Use. What most often happens IRL is people who simply have the intention to use anything they "found on Google" without paying always try to quote "Fair Use". It's not that simple, there are few cases where it actually applies. One could argue in ESO housing, that copy-pasting a build for their own private use would be akin to this.
This still feels a bit gross to me – as bayushi said above, I don't understand why someone would do it, beyond maybe their private RP or something. But if they're not trying to gain anything from it or show it to others while claiming as their own then, again as in art, then personally I can't say I could be moved to bother about it.

nathamarath

MoonPile wrote: »

nathamarath wrote: »

I think housers could be more open on this matter. As with every art there will people who cover your art. Look at music and imagine singers forbidding others to sing their songs. Also, I find -with all respect- some copies are great as well, sometimes even better, sometimes worse, sometimes, well, copies. We can learn from the ones we inspire and vice versa.

As a compromise one could enhance the ingame housing tours with the opportunity of CCs in which you can state that you do not wish your work to be copied at all, or not for contests, or copied with naming you, or copied with naming you and allowing them to further use and modify the build, and so on.. this may also protect and promote the not so well known builds. In addition, there could be a housing hub site, where people show off their builds including a furniture list, which could demonstrate respect to the first creators on one side and the learning creators on the other - advantaging both, PC and consoles housers

It's absolutely not OK to copy creations without permission in the arts, especially for monetary gain. That's why Copyright Law exists. Copy-pasting as Mloking is showing and inspiration are two wholly different things.

Housing creations can be thought of as similar to collage, which is also protected IRL, as are remixes in music. The assets are ZOS's, but the creations people make using them are, to varying degrees, transformative and original. Of course we won't have protection by IRL laws, but at the very least we as a community could hopefully agree that in-game "monetary" gains, such as contest entries and winnings, are not OK.

Just as in the arts IRL, within the housing community people share gladly, offering their builds for visitation and inspiration, showing their cobbles and how to make them, make addons, and so on. We draw the line when someone blatantly copies sans either permission or credit, and tries to benefit from it.


P.S. Since I said "monetary gains, I should also mention Fair Use. What most often happens IRL is people who simply have the intention to use anything they "found on Google" without paying always try to quote "Fair Use". It's not that simple, there are few cases where it actually applies. One could argue in ESO housing, that copy-pasting a build for their own private use would be akin to this.
This still feels a bit gross to me – as bayushi said above, I don't understand why someone would do it, beyond maybe their private RP or something. But if they're not trying to gain anything from it or show it to others while claiming as their own then, again as in art, then personally I can't say I could be moved to bother about it.

Yes, you're right in your concerns but from experience people doing that are a tiny minority and restricting the functionality of an essential feature of EHT imho is a nogo unless it can be applied to visitors which I think is not doable with the structure of EHT given. That's why I voted for more coolness in handling undesired side effects until a certain etiquette has re-established. My attempt of polishing the feeling of seeing ones work copied and in comparison might have gone wrong tho verbally. What I meant bases on my experience when I saw parts of my houses copied. It took me a while to accept it but eventually it was not that hard because I think simple copies are a marginal phenomenon. Most of the community spirit is sharing, proud of inspiration and their own creations.

Regarding your explanation of copyrights I agree, moreover I am not fond of but used to every creation being protected by and attributed to authorship by default. You may read the following translated from german

Copyright law refers to an area of law in the United States for the protection of intellectual property. It is similar to German copyright law, but differs in key respects. The approach is already different: while German copyright law focuses on the author as creator and his idealistic relationship to the work, US copyright emphasizes the economic aspect. In contrast to continental European copyright law, in the American legal system the decision-making and exploitation rights over a work are often not granted to the author (e.g. the artist), but to the commercial rights exploiters, for example the publisher. The author then retains limited veto rights, which are intended to prevent misuse of the copyright by the rights exploiters.

~wikipedia

therefore my suggestion of using Creative Commons if really needed. Another option: Some software or services show a little popup before installing or using them defining the fair use of the tool. Maybe that was something to start with - sad because artists usually act that way by heart but maybe it helps.

ReeceLavellan

nathamarath wrote: »

I think housers could be more open on this matter. As with every art there will people who cover your art. Look at music and imagine singers forbidding others to sing their songs. Also, I find -with all respect- some copies are great as well, sometimes even better, sometimes worse, sometimes, well, copies. We can learn from the ones we inspire and vice versa.

As a compromise one could enhance the ingame housing tours with the opportunity of CCs in which you can state that you do not wish your work to be copied at all, or not for contests, or copied with naming you, or copied with naming you and allowing them to further use and modify the build, and so on.. this may also protect and promote the not so well known builds. In addition, there could be a housing hub site, where people show off their builds including a furniture list, which could demonstrate respect to the first creators on one side and the learning creators on the other - advantaging both, PC and consoles housers

I think someone singing a song for their own private pleasure, or even uploading themselves singing it on YouTube is very different to trying to publish said song as their own creation and convince others that they made it. I think learning from each other and inspiring each other is very important and a big part of the housing community, but outright copying isn’t learning, not without express permission. I think that’s the thing that irks me most, not the concept of if it’s right or wrong to copy, but to do it without asking (and in some cases, asking, then being politely denied, then copying anyway!).

It should be the default that builds aren’t allowed to be copied unless the original owner expressly says otherwise or the other person gets written permission from them. Creators shouldn’t have to note every house they publish with “please don’t copy”. As for contests I don’t think personally that copied work should be allowed at all even with permission from the original owner. This could be used to cheat in competitions by 1 person entering multiple houses under different names or having deals with the copiers that they get a share of the winnings if they win, while also winning their own prize by entering their own entry.

I think copying small cobbles is a different matter but it’s generally accepted, especially if whoever copies it puts a bit of variation on said cobble. I don’t even think copying the styles (by hand, without EHT) of smaller custom buildings is bad providing it’s in a different house from the original, because when done by hand it will always look slightly different from the original (especially if some different materials/furnishings are used).

Mloking

nathamarath wrote: »

I think housers could be more open on this matter. As with every art there will people who cover your art. Look at music and imagine singers forbidding others to sing their songs. Also, I find -with all respect- some copies are great as well, sometimes even better, sometimes worse, sometimes, well, copies. We can learn from the ones we inspire and vice versa.

As a compromise one could enhance the ingame housing tours with the opportunity of CCs in which you can state that you do not wish your work to be copied at all, or not for contests, or copied with naming you, or copied with naming you and allowing them to further use and modify the build, and so on.. this may also protect and promote the not so well known builds. In addition, there could be a housing hub site, where people show off their builds including a furniture list, which could demonstrate respect to the first creators on one side and the learning creators on the other - advantaging both, PC and consoles housers

If you read my first post you will see that its not the point of why im posting this. I know people will copy and i dont mind it that much anymore as there is nothing much i can do with it. The point of this post is theres an unintentional feature in an add-on that allows players to make an instant copy of any house they want, without any effort of trying to recreate the original house. Also i dont understand the need to post copies publicly, i expect people copy for personal or roleplaying needs, which does not require to post it to public and claim as their own design..

EHT should just not allow people to make a blueprint in other people's homes, if you want one, the owner can make a doc file with it for you.

(And ill ignore what you said about a copy being sometimes better, its never an excuse if you dont consult with the person who came up with it first.)

MoonPile

To say it briefly, I fully agree with Mloking that there needs to be a way to limit this functionality for visitors within EHT.

Because I'm certain this issue isn't helped by Home Tours opening creations to a larger audience many of whom may not be housers/builders/artists in any way and would have zero moral or other qualms about fully copy-pasting.

onyxorb

I would love to see if @ZOS_Kevin or anyone else could offer an update on this?

The Housing Community is one of the few communities that still seems to be strong in the game right now.
However, seeing builds you worked so hard on being so easily copied and used by others is really disheartening.

It's even to the point where people are entering these copies into Housing Contests, which is about as demoralizing as it gets for a builder. Not to mention it causes extra work for the organizers who now gave ti do extra research to determine if a home is copied or not.

Also, I still believe this is not an EHT thing, but a base game issue. I use another addon that lets me save and load information.

Please consider allowing only those with 'Decorator' privs to have access to the item placement information?

Spell-Slinger

ThelerisTelvanni wrote: »

Well to be honest I do not see any problem with copying a build, as long as it is for private use.

Maybe a RP player likes a build but has never done housing. A coppy simply gives the RP player the opportunity to do his RP in the wanted location. Yes the other players that do RP with that player will see the build but to be honest, I do not see any harm done in that scenario. In fact the opposite! A player or rather a group of players got enabled to enjoy the game more.

Where I see a problem indeed is when it comes to contests. If you have to make your home open to everyone so it can be copyed. But the simple solution to that is that you give a list of all the judges and streamer to everyone that takes part. That way only those that actually need to get into the house, can get the right to visit and no one can copy your build you made for that contest.

To me the inspection mode was a welcome addition and cutting it off, since some prominent builders feel butt hurt, feels wrong. What do you want housing DRM? I totally understand that you dislike it when someone else is taking credit for your creative work. I'd probably be pissed too. But at the end of the day it is just a game! It is supposed to be fun! If you are doing housing not because you have fun decorating, but instead because you want the fame, that is probably the wrong motivation. I simply want to create a nice place when I build something and in most cases I do so for myself.

Yet if for some reason someone were to copy your work and after you were showing it around that person was claiming to be the original creator, at that point I'd agree we'd have a problem.

But how do you want to prevent it? Cutting off inspection mode? Prohibiting the save build function of the addon? Do you expect ZOS to implement a tool that scans/recognizes all builds ever made on every server and when someone copys a build, it makes a big "copyed from XYZ" tag on the house whenever someone visits? As a form of DRM? And how much server capacity is it supposed to cost?

I think the easiest way is to limit the access to the houses in question, that you want no one to copy, to those you trust.

If you love something to the extent that you get a copy of it for yourself, I do (in most scenarios) not see a problem. And to some extent it is flattering that someone liked my build to the extent that they copyed it.

To me it seems there is no easy solution by side the one mentioned to this problem. Unless you want usability to be reduced for everyone. So better calm down a little and be less butt hurt and moderete the access to your homes.

You do not need to agree with my opinion, but I hope you can respect me stating it.

So I disagree with pretty much everything said here. As a roleplayer myself, why would I need to underhandedly COPY a build I enjoy, instead of just roleplaying inside the orignial build (though you might want to ask permission first to avoid potential awkwardness)? And if I for some reason feel the need to get a copy, the obvious decent thing to do is, again, ask permission from the original creator. It really isn't that hard. Before I got heavily into housing myself, that is exactly what I did - I asked permission, and then copied a build made by another person. I ended up later deleting that build simply because people would visit and just assume that it was my original work, and having to constantly correct people was uncomfortable enough for me.

The "it's just a game" argument is also fundamentally flawed. It's not very respectful or constructive to basically disparage people for caring about their creative work.

I don't think anyone expects ZOS to implement housing DRM as described above. However, there is a solid argument that inspect mode was a mistake and makes it far too easy for these bad actors to directly copy a home. People have already mentioned it in the thread, but yes it IS different to look at a thing with your eyes and make an attempt to do your own personal take on it, vs just letting an addon make an exact pixel by pixel carbon copy. The former is looking at the Mona Lisa and trying to paint your own; the latter is taking a photograph.

The last point I want to touch on here is the suggestion that people should just limit access to their homes if they don't want them to get stolen. That's exactly what I'm afraid is going to happen if nothing gets done. I'm unfortunately not a personal friend with every amazing houser in ESO, so in this case there would probably be countless great homes I'd never even learn existed, much less have the opportunity to visit. That, I think, would be a huge loss to all of us - far greater than the minor inconvenience of not having unmitigated access to inspect mode.

CatoUnchained

Mloking wrote: »

Greetings players and admins.

I'm making this post because some people, who spend a lot of time creating houses in this game, are tired of the EASY posibility of copying creations with a certain add-on - Essential Housing Tools (EHT).

To make it clear, I do NOT want this add-on to be disabled. It has a lot of very useful features, including the posibility for players to show off their homes to other people.
EHT has been working without major issues fine until approx. December 2022, when housing inspection mode was introduced. Before this update, people could make blueprints of their creations, or other people's creations WHEN they had permission as a decorator. After mentioned update, there were no limitations. People are now able to make blueprints of any accessible house.

Me and my dear friend Ayalockheart have found this feature at the very beginning. I contacted the admin of the add-on - @Cardinal05 - about this issue. I got a reply, which was most likely a misunderstanding, saying that this feature was for harmless intent, not understanding what I was trying to say. I do not remember if I sent another mail, was quite a long time ago, but I did try to contact Cardinal later on via mail (full inbox) and discord (no reply).

Not sure how often people make copies of other people's houses, players with sense will not make them public. BUT some people do make them public without a mention of the original designer - seeming as if they made it. And it just sucks.

Yes, copying will always be an unavoidable thing, but why make it easier?

The housing community is very close to each other, so we inform others about public copies. My houses have been copied in a way where people tried to recreate to the detail, which you can see when it is "handmade", or a way where a person just makes a blueprint with EHT of my build and pops it into their house - it is very obvious - pixel perfect.

I really just want to bring attention to this issue, and asking Cardinal05 or Architectura to look into this and fix it, thank you.

Everything anyone does in ESO is the property of Zenimax to do wish as they please. Players don't "own" anything in game; not their houses, not their builds, not their crowns, not their gold, not their inventory, nothing. ZOS owns everything game related no matter how proud of their creations the players may be.

Take a close look at the ToS is you don't believe me.

Thysbe

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Everything anyone does in ESO is the property of Zenimax to do wish as they please. Players don't "own" anything in game; not their houses, not their builds, not their crowns, not their gold, not their inventory, nothing. ZOS owns everything game related no matter how proud of their creations the players may be.

Take a close look at the ToS is you don't believe me.

all creators are asking for is ways of preventing direct 2 cklick copy/paste copies of our builds like the system is preventing me from taking your gold or items from your bank - since Zenimax owns it all you wouldnt mind that, ist just virtual stuff anyways, isnt it?

LikiLoki

People who have put a lot of effort and talent into their work do not deserve to be robbed. I used this feature to move a building from one of my houses to another, but I never took someone else's.
I don't see a way to fix the problem, game technology is still too primitive to label unique houses with a "sign of uniqueness". The legal field is still at the beginning of the path towards recognizing gaming values as personal property protected by law, and even then, only in certain countries.
upd/ This cannot be compared to copying classes build. Home building in teso is an art

PrincessOfThieves

LikiLoki wrote: »

People who have put a lot of effort and talent into their work do not deserve to be robbed. I used this feature to move a building from one of my houses to another, but I never took someone else's.
I don't see a way to fix the problem, game technology is still too primitive to label unique houses with a "sign of uniqueness". The legal field is still at the beginning of the path towards recognizing gaming values as personal property protected by law, and even then, only in certain countries.
upd/ This cannot be compared to copying classes build. Home building in teso is an art

It's pretty easy to fix this, just disable inspection mode for limited visitors. Copying other people's houses was not possible before they introduced this feature.

Mloking

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Mloking wrote: »

Greetings players and admins.

I'm making this post because some people, who spend a lot of time creating houses in this game, are tired of the EASY posibility of copying creations with a certain add-on - Essential Housing Tools (EHT).

To make it clear, I do NOT want this add-on to be disabled. It has a lot of very useful features, including the posibility for players to show off their homes to other people.
EHT has been working without major issues fine until approx. December 2022, when housing inspection mode was introduced. Before this update, people could make blueprints of their creations, or other people's creations WHEN they had permission as a decorator. After mentioned update, there were no limitations. People are now able to make blueprints of any accessible house.

Me and my dear friend Ayalockheart have found this feature at the very beginning. I contacted the admin of the add-on - @Cardinal05 - about this issue. I got a reply, which was most likely a misunderstanding, saying that this feature was for harmless intent, not understanding what I was trying to say. I do not remember if I sent another mail, was quite a long time ago, but I did try to contact Cardinal later on via mail (full inbox) and discord (no reply).

Not sure how often people make copies of other people's houses, players with sense will not make them public. BUT some people do make them public without a mention of the original designer - seeming as if they made it. And it just sucks.

Yes, copying will always be an unavoidable thing, but why make it easier?

The housing community is very close to each other, so we inform others about public copies. My houses have been copied in a way where people tried to recreate to the detail, which you can see when it is "handmade", or a way where a person just makes a blueprint with EHT of my build and pops it into their house - it is very obvious - pixel perfect.

I really just want to bring attention to this issue, and asking Cardinal05 or Architectura to look into this and fix it, thank you.

Everything anyone does in ESO is the property of Zenimax to do wish as they please. Players don't "own" anything in game; not their houses, not their builds, not their crowns, not their gold, not their inventory, nothing. ZOS owns everything game related no matter how proud of their creations the players may be.

Take a close look at the ToS is you don't believe me.

Cool, i dont care if zenimax owns it or not, i just dont want a toxic add on to exist.

WolfStar07

Despite saying this isn't about EHT and not wanting it disabled, there's still a lot of dumping on it in this thread. I use the copy feature of this addon pretty frequently for my own builds. Sometimes I stage in one house and move it to another, sometimes I like a feature I made for 1 house and want to duplicate it in another, and sometimes I'm just making multiple of whatever it is in that same house and don't want to fuss with hand placing each one trying to get it exact. There are good uses for this feature, and as pointed out up thread, the people who are using it for nefarious means are in the minority.

Nerouyn

For those suggesting that EHT just disable or limit this feature, that might temporarily slow down this flood but the game necessarily loads all of the furnishing placement data onto any visitor's machines.

There's no way to prevent this info from going client-side.

That means it will always be prone to capture by any potential addon.

If there's a demand for being able to copy then someone else will come along and create an addon to do it.

LikiLoki wrote: »

I don't see a way to fix the problem, game technology is still too primitive to label unique houses with a "sign of uniqueness".

It's all just numbers in a database.

An exact copy of anyone's home would be easily detectable by ZO from running a simple database search. Even slight variations attempting to evade such searches wouldn't be super hard to detect.

The difficulty is that copying isn't against the rules or any laws and that would also pick up many false positives in instances of genuine sharing.

Some players sell their decorating services.

Perhaps what ZO should do is allow players to officially register their creations and set an optional modest fee for copies. Anyone detected as being too close to one would have the option to make changes or cough up the gold.

Limit the number of registrations to prevent anyone from going nuts and just registering everything imaginable.

And the game could clearly mark copies as such so they could be easily disqualified from competitions.

Amottica

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Mloking wrote: »

Greetings players and admins.

I'm making this post because some people, who spend a lot of time creating houses in this game, are tired of the EASY posibility of copying creations with a certain add-on - Essential Housing Tools (EHT).

To make it clear, I do NOT want this add-on to be disabled. It has a lot of very useful features, including the posibility for players to show off their homes to other people.
EHT has been working without major issues fine until approx. December 2022, when housing inspection mode was introduced. Before this update, people could make blueprints of their creations, or other people's creations WHEN they had permission as a decorator. After mentioned update, there were no limitations. People are now able to make blueprints of any accessible house.

Me and my dear friend Ayalockheart have found this feature at the very beginning. I contacted the admin of the add-on - @Cardinal05 - about this issue. I got a reply, which was most likely a misunderstanding, saying that this feature was for harmless intent, not understanding what I was trying to say. I do not remember if I sent another mail, was quite a long time ago, but I did try to contact Cardinal later on via mail (full inbox) and discord (no reply).

Not sure how often people make copies of other people's houses, players with sense will not make them public. BUT some people do make them public without a mention of the original designer - seeming as if they made it. And it just sucks.

Yes, copying will always be an unavoidable thing, but why make it easier?

The housing community is very close to each other, so we inform others about public copies. My houses have been copied in a way where people tried to recreate to the detail, which you can see when it is "handmade", or a way where a person just makes a blueprint with EHT of my build and pops it into their house - it is very obvious - pixel perfect.

I really just want to bring attention to this issue, and asking Cardinal05 or Architectura to look into this and fix it, thank you.

Everything anyone does in ESO is the property of Zenimax to do wish as they please. Players don't "own" anything in game; not their houses, not their builds, not their crowns, not their gold, not their inventory, nothing. ZOS owns everything game related no matter how proud of their creations the players may be.

Take a close look at the ToS is you don't believe me.

I am pretty sure the OP is aware that we do not own anything in this game; it is all owned by Zenimax. This is not about that. It is about the level of access another player has to the creation someone has made in their home, and the OP's statement is very clear about that.

Amottica

Nerouyn wrote: »

For those suggesting that EHT just disable or limit this feature, that might temporarily slow down this flood but the game necessarily loads all of the furnishing placement data onto any visitor's machines.

There's no way to prevent this info from going client-side.

That means it will always be prone to capture by any potential addon.

If there's a demand for being able to copy then someone else will come along and create an addon to do it.

This would not be correct. Zenimax has control over what data is available via the API.

Sure, someone could take meticulous notes, requiring hours of their time to determine the design in another home, and then spend hours upon hours recreating it manually and maybe getting it someone close, but again, this is not about that based on what the OP has said.