For years I've tried to convince hundreds of players to play ESO. Results might surprise ZOS

FluffyBird

If any player honestly thinks that for some reason people should not play this game and they can express it without breaking forum rules - only ZOS can stop them.

If someone played five years ago, they still can voice their opinion - only ZOS can stop them.

If someone thinks that both of those players should be silenced - that person can totally demonstrate to the whole community such nonsensical and unkind ideas, and again - only ZOS can stop them.

thorwyn

In my opinion those that do not actively play should not have access to post on the forums.

Since ESO does not have a mandatory subscription: what does actively playing mean? At what point is someone considered an active player? I see your point and I've had similar thoughts in the past, but when you think about it logically, there is no way to monitor or even define activity. Trying to filter any kind of hear-say opinions is not worth the effort, because those opinions are usually being shut down by the active players and at the end of the day, the forums are just another echo chamber.

MashmalloMan

https://youtu.be/8XAm9iQ6lmc

To add to the chunkiness of this game, many players new/old probably aren't even aware of this issue. There is a hidden "mechanic" where if you spam your skill inputs too many times you get temporarily locked out of casting for a second or two. I created this vid in 2021 and linked it in the forums bugs section. Still not fixed.

It doesn't need to be the same skill either. It happens if you spam any of the skills on your bars instead of trying to time them with the 1 second GCD. You can be moving or standing still.

This issue doesn't happen with cast time skills as far as I'm aware, only instant skills.

So kinda funny. ZOS actively punishes new players who don't know the concept of weaving yet, most people would spam their inputs to cast skills then almost 5 seconds into the game think... "wait why aren't my skills working when I need them to?" It's only when you start to weave light attacks that you build a rhythm for the game that you're otherwise not used to, where you spam inputs every 0.8 seconds or so instead of continuously where this issue rears its ugly head.

SeaGtGruff

I enjoy ESO's combat system.

I seldom use LAW because I prefer to use 2H weapons in up-close melee fighting, and from the little that I've used LAW it seems to me that it works best with ranged weapons, but maybe I just haven't figured out the right way to use it in 2H-melee fighting. I couldn't even get a good, proper LAW rhythm going until I tried using it in ranged attacks with staves on my two Arcanist characters.

With 2H-melee fighting I much prefer HAW and MAW. And by the way, I've used HAW for years, long before Antiquities were added to the game, and I haven't even collected the Oakensoul antiquity yet, so I'm not talking about using some "HAW build" that players came up with in recent years and which caused such an uproar among a certain elitist gatekeeping segment of the playerbase. Players talk about "L2P," and long ago when I was just starting to play ESO and read that HAs are used for restoring resources, it seemed like such a no-brainer to me to use HAW for improved resource reserves, especially since my mains have their APs split between Health and Stamina for a bit of tankiness and I don't use potions to restore resources during fights. Often I even go without using food, because I tend to think of the Stamina buffs from my favorite food (Lava Foot Soup-and-Saltrice) to be a sort of crutch, so for a greater challenge I'll try soloing WBs without food buffs, without any potion-popping, and (on my StamSorc) without using combat pets for healing.

Note that I'm talking about PvE fights with mobs and bosses, not PvP fights with OP players who can kill me fairly quickly.

Anyway, I find ESO's combat system to be great fun, and sometimes I wish I could fight in a similar way in other Elder Scrolls games. If someone else doesn't like ESO's combat system, that's fine; their preferences are their preferences and it's not my place to try to tell them they should like something. I'm simply adding my own opinion to the discussion for balance.

Suddwrath

I have been playing since closed beta. Over the years, every single person I have recommended the game to ended up quitting after a relatively short time. All of them gave the same reason: Clunky combat. Eventually I gave up on recommending the game because I cannot think of a single person who stuck with the game for more than a couple of weeks.

Trejgon

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I enjoy ESO's combat system.

I seldom use LAW because I prefer to use 2H weapons in up-close melee fighting, and from the little that I've used LAW it seems to me that it works best with ranged weapons, but maybe I just haven't figured out the right way to use it in 2H-melee fighting. I couldn't even get a good, proper LAW rhythm going until I tried using it in ranged attacks with staves on my two Arcanist characters.

Ironically enough it has been direct oposite for me. I struggle with weaving on bows and staves, since those light attacks do not have a clearly defined part of animation that you skip with skill casts. 2h weapons on another hand have this huge overswing, so if I weave light attacks with reverce slice it looks much more like not only I get clear feedback that I did it right, but also it actually starts looking like my characters have any idea how to wield the weapon

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

With 2H-melee fighting I much prefer HAW and MAW.

I assumed LAW means Light Attack Weaving, and HAW is Heavy Attack Weaving, but what is "MAW" supposed to mean?

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

And by the way, I've used HAW for years, long before Antiquities were added to the game, and I haven't even collected the Oakensoul antiquity yet, so I'm not talking about using some "HAW build" that players came up with in recent years and which caused such an uproar among a certain elitist gatekeeping segment of the playerbase. Players talk about "L2P," and long ago when I was just starting to play ESO and read that HAs are used for restoring resources, it seemed like such a no-brainer to me to use HAW for improved resource reserves, especially since my mains have their APs split between Health and Stamina for a bit of tankiness and I don't use potions to restore resources during fights. Often I even go without using food, because I tend to think of the Stamina buffs from my favorite food (Lava Foot Soup-and-Saltrice) to be a sort of crutch, so for a greater challenge I'll try soloing WBs without food buffs, without any potion-popping, and (on my StamSorc) without using combat pets for healing.

Oh, we are looking here at serious undermining of your own ability to murder stuff Probably closer to initial intent of developpers how game is meant to be played than what meta ended up being, but still. Resource split, skipping potions and food that's alot of fighting power foregone.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Note that I'm talking about PvE fights with mobs and bosses, not PvP fights with OP players who can kill me fairly quickly.

Anyway, I find ESO's combat system to be great fun, and sometimes I wish I could fight in a similar way in other Elder Scrolls games. If someone else doesn't like ESO's combat system, that's fine; their preferences are their preferences and it's not my place to try to tell them they should like something. I'm simply adding my own opinion to the discussion for balance.

Personally from my perspective one big issue of why the combat system complains pop up so ofen (outside of issues of legitimate jank with it that is) is due to how much emphasis everyone puts on "you need to weave properly to be good" whenever new player comes into the game. From my personal experience introduction to high end optimisations is much easier when you get time to get into it without stressing about having to cancell all your animations when you are still finding your footing in the game. But that may vary from person to person.

peacenote

Ugrak wrote: »

[...] suffice it to say that the fundamental issue seems to be that the population is divided into segments with widely diverging capabilities and preferences, to the point that matching a single piece of content to them all may not be possible. Allowing players to select between options sutiable to their preferences would likely be better for both ends of the spectrum.

Your whole post is spot on but this particular point is what I'd like to build on, as I agree and I think this is the reason that this conversation has been so lively (and at times, contentious.)

The OP's post is well-written. There's really nothing to agree or disagree with, per se, in that they are just providing opinions of others based on a subset of folks in the hopes that it might be helpful. Do I "agree" to the extent that I think ZOS should make these points a priority over all other things? No. But it's an interesting read, and there could be multiple ways to solve or address the observations.

I do think, though, that ESO as a game is hard to explain, because there's nothing else quite like it and the world and features are so vast. And this results in a very diverse community, logging in every day for a wide variety of reasons, such that the internal "this is my favorite thing about ESO, the thing that keeps me here" reason per person also is much more varied across the community compared to most games. Are you here because you're an Elder Scrolls fan? Are you here because it's an MMO? Because you raid? Because you PvP? Because it's a vast world with a lot of content that is solo-able? I mean, I could go on and on.

As a result, I do think as we go out into the real world and ask our "gamer" friends to come play with us, if we just say "check out this cool game," we're not going to be as successful as if we were to explain the parts of the game that will appeal to the audience, while being somewhat apologetic for its weak points. I really feel that ESO's biggest "issue" is that it's too big and complex, such that you can't "get" it right away. People who receive recommendations often have higher expectations because of those recommendations. So if I was trying to convince a friend who has played other MMOs to play ESO, I would say something like "We all have a ton of fun on raid nights. You should join! We totally can help you power level and get you gear right away. There's a lot of other stuff to do, but be aware that the 'regular' quest content is super easy and not at all an indication of what it's like in a trial. That content is more aimed at folks who enjoy Elder Scrolls stories. I enjoy it myself, but it may not be your thing." If I was trying to convince a friend who has never played an MMO before to play, just to spend time with them, knowing they'd probably never raid, I'd say "Oh you should totally try it. For your first character, have it be an EP character... that way I can help you in PvP. I'll also start a new character with you so we can level together; it will be fun! The game has been around a long time so it can be overwhelming at first but I'll explain everything. Once you get the hang of it, there's all kinds of stuff you might enjoy on your own - there's a card game and a system for digging up treasures, or you can level up your sneakiness and try your hand at heists!"

You get the idea. Just dropping someone into ESO with no prep and without kind of curating their experience a bit is tough. I mean, I remember when I started. It was completely overwhelming. This is not a new problem with ESO. So many style materials and things I had no idea what to do with. I'd finally kill something and get, like, one gold. Buying anything seemed really out of reach for weeks if not months. There were no guides, no content creators.... I would literally get stuck on quests because they weren't always clear and I wasn't sure if they were bugged or I was missing a puzzle. I jumped into Cyro before my horse was leveled and hated it so much it's amazing anyone convinced me to ever go back. It was literally just running slowly for a long time, dying immediately, and then running slowly again. I also remember thinking it was so dumb that my horse couldn't go through even a puddle without dismounting me.

But yet, I'm still here. Because I'm the type of player that loves leveling and the expansiveness of MMOs. ESO was never meant to be a game to be conquered and captivating in five minutes. In my opinion, it was designed as a slow, grind-it-out MMO with ES lore. I mean, you used to have to level up each horse separately. And gear was character bound. With no option to transmute. And no stickerbook. It's really a cakewalk now! But I do think it's not going to have staying power for players that are quickly turned off by animations or too many things to do when they start, without an additional reason to stick with it (say, a love for ES lore or a desire to play with friends). It's a game for folks who like to uncover things, and explore, and are willing to give a game a solid chance (a few weeks of playing, or I'd say, in ESO, at least getting to 50). Now, perhaps over the years many players who have different values in a game passed through and found things to love about ESO, but I do think there is a difference between trying to make ESO appeal to "all gamers" vs. trying to improve ESO while keeping its initial charm.

Araneae6537 wrote: »

But there are areas with a lot of room for improvement, including more options for how our characters move (personalities are a great start, but I don’t think they alter running and some of the personalities are too exaggerated/ridiculous) and then changes that have been very negative for many longterm players, including templar jabs (now vampiric shovel) and grim focus (I have deleted characters because I cannot stand this irradiated eye sore). Optional updates for animations and character models might be good, but I hesitate given how bad many of the enforced changes of the past two years have been.

Yep, and, if anything, this is my fear. ZOS needs to understand the original point of my post here, building off of the quoted post, that ESO is many different things to many different people. With a game like that, it truly is hard to refresh content without alienating loyal customers. Most of you know my biggest axe to grind on that topic is AwA, but it's certainly not the only one. It was painful to watch highly anticipated ideas be executed in a way that ruins something about ESO for active players. It would take a masterful leader, indeed, to know what to tweak and what to keep, and it becomes a "should they mess with success" question for me. Would all of those people really have stayed if the animations were better? Did they give it a real shot? I'd suspect it's somewhere between not all of them to not most of them.

For fun, since this is a long post anyway, I'll give my take on each observation from the players who left, cited in the opening post.

1- PvP: The summary was pretty much perfect and I really wish PvP would get some attention. I think a common misconception is that there are PvE players or PvP players. But that's not always true... often people play both!!! So even if you personally do not PvP, an investment in PvP will revitalize the whole community. PvP players participate in events, quest, hang around towns, sell stuff in guilds, and play in dungeons and trials. Not all of them do everything, but there's this weird "vs." mentality that gets amplified on the forums, mostly due to people getting upset during PvP events, that makes it seem like the state of PvP doesn't impact all of us. But, it definitely does. And I wish it could be made #1 priority for a while, personally.

2- Inventory: Or perhaps this could really be "difficulty doing basic things while learning." I think we wouldn't lose too much ESO charm if there was a basic acknowledgement that there is so much to do in game that the early grind is no longer necessary and more of a nuisance. Allowing the first characters of new players to, say, have their horse half leveled, and half of their bag upgrades automatically applied, wouldn't hurt anything. Give 3 months of ESO plus to all new accounts. Whatever would help. I've been in ESO from the beginning. But I remembering joining WoW to play with friends when it was well underway. I wouldn't have done it if I couldn't have gotten that level 50 DK to start... I felt too far behind everyone else leveling a character from scratch. The vast amount of content in ESO is good. But, the large hurdles in the beginning to be functional as a player may no longer be needed. If people want to bypass them, let them bypass them. It won't keep them in the game longer at this point. There's YEARS of content if they enjoy the game. YEARS and YEARS.

I also think the inventory situation in general needs improvement for all players. But I've written about that in lots of other places.

3- Too much content: Sorry, I just can't agree that ZOS should stop prioritizing the addition of new zones, or that the appeal of new zones can be boiled down to "another 100 quests." Nor do I think veteran versions of current zones would satisfy the need for new content that current players have. They are all different needs. I think if new players are overwhelmed with all the content, that better tutorials, and additional improvements on herding new players through the game would be best, and there have been many excellent suggestions on the forums along these lines. ZOS tried a while back to work on this but I don't think it was enough. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and all that. I agree that the experience likely is overwhelming for new players, but I don't agree with the conclusion that this means new content should or could stop and we'd be better off.

4- Graphics and animation: Tread carefully! Improvements that, say, 99% of the community will enjoy (I mean, there's always SOMEONE who doesn't like even the most popular change)... that would be great. But there were some recent animation changes that received extremely mixed reviews, causing some folks to abandon characters or quit, because they now hated their only character and didn't want to level a new one. Is it possible to refresh animations in a positive way? I'm sure it's possible. But... I definitely think it's a tread carefully situation.

TL:DR: Great opening post. Great conversations. IMO, if ZOS tries to update ESO to be more appealing to newer players, and enticing them to stick around, they need to be careful not to ruin what they have and/or alienate current players as they attempt this. I think there are some things that could be done in a risk-free way, but for a game where some folks have multiple accounts because they are so into character creation, role playing, and/or the "feel" of the game, caution is warranted.

Surgee

SilverBride wrote: »

I play pvp mainly.

I've played the MMOs you listed and combat in ESO is the best for me because of the high ceiling. Sure it's janky as *** but that's what i love about it. Light attack weaving, dodge roll cancelling, weapon swap cancelling, and even sheathing your weapon before opening a door when being chased by a zerg, knowing which rocks/areas can be used to LOS, etc.

All those things you've mentioned contribute greatly to people hating the combat, especially PVP, which then leads to player number drops and PVP not getting support from the devs.

When you must use glitches, abuse engine limitations, and do some over-the-top tricks that aren't an intended part of the game design just to have a fighting chance, you'll only have "sweaty elite" left playing. It's simply not fun for most players to play like this. Many new players have no clue that it's even a thing and get obliterated. This glitching (like animation canceling) creates such a massive power gap that casual gamers, who usually drive the sales, get completely steamrolled, quit PVP all together, and focus on PVP. Game devs check the data and see that there are no high-value customers in the PVP and drop the support. That's exactly what's happening right now with PVP in ESO.

So next time anyone defends animation canceling and other similar "tricks" as an integral and necessary part of the game - consider that you're contributing that way to the death of the very thing you love - PVP. Hell, even in PVE it's hard to keep up with the group without doing all these glitches.

First and foremost the combat is supposed to be FUN. It must be enjoyable to slay enemies and see how they interact with your skills. As much as I love Elder Scrolls, for me there's literally nothing fun about the combat. It works, but it gives zero satisfaction. Just lots of math and brain work to optimize a character and then watch the numbers.

My friend gave it a try recently (and managed to play for 5 days before giving up). In other games, she right away gets into the combat and goes like "Woah look what I just did! This is so cool! It's so fun killing them!". When she tried ESO she said it feels like trying to operate an airplane rather than having fun. Just trying to memorize what button to press when and watch numbers without excitement, visual pleasure, or impact.

Adremal

SilverBride wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

SomeoneSo the opinion of someone who watches a streamer or has friends who still play the game is invalid, and asking questions is strictly forbidden (questions that might help them getting a more accurate picture of the situation). But hey, let's implement a system that gives more relevance to posts the more hours a user put into the game while we're at it, why not?

That is not what I said. A former player may certainly ask friends and even watch streamers for information because they are getting it first hand from those that are still playing. And they can come to the forums and read active players' current feedback. But a former player then coming to the forums and passing on second hand information is heresay.

It's actually exactly what you said. It's all quoted. And you're reiterating it with this post with your wording - they can read, but. That's now how any game forum that I know of works, thankfully, as it would be both detrimental to the community and to the game itself.
And at any rate, feedback from people who have left even years ago is still viable because the issues that led them to leave are still here - and you might not want to read negative feedback, even if it's constructive, but that's how you make a game better. There are many current example of this, notably two ARPGs, one by a small indie company and the other by a huge conglomerate. The former takes feedback to heart and engages a lot, to the point of holding surveys; the latter is a laughingstock. I wish ZOS would engage more with the playerbase when it come to feedback, and I play the game. Others who don't play the game wish for the exact same thing. Why should they be unable to say so?

TaSheen

peacenote wrote: »

Ugrak wrote: »

[...] suffice it to say that the fundamental issue seems to be that the population is divided into segments with widely diverging capabilities and preferences, to the point that matching a single piece of content to them all may not be possible. Allowing players to select between options sutiable to their preferences would likely be better for both ends of the spectrum.

Your whole post is spot on but this particular point is what I'd like to build on, as I agree and I think this is the reason that this conversation has been so lively (and at times, contentious.)

The OP's post is well-written. There's really nothing to agree or disagree with, per se, in that they are just providing opinions of others based on a subset of folks in the hopes that it might be helpful. Do I "agree" to the extent that I think ZOS should make these points a priority over all other things? No. But it's an interesting read, and there could be multiple ways to solve or address the observations.

I do think, though, that ESO as a game is hard to explain, because there's nothing else quite like it and the world and features are so vast. And this results in a very diverse community, logging in every day for a wide variety of reasons, such that the internal "this is my favorite thing about ESO, the thing that keeps me here" reason per person also is much more varied across the community compared to most games. Are you here because you're an Elder Scrolls fan? Are you here because it's an MMO? Because you raid? Because you PvP? Because it's a vast world with a lot of content that is solo-able? I mean, I could go on and on.

As a result, I do think as we go out into the real world and ask our "gamer" friends to come play with us, if we just say "check out this cool game," we're not going to be as successful as if we were to explain the parts of the game that will appeal to the audience, while being somewhat apologetic for its weak points. I really feel that ESO's biggest "issue" is that it's too big and complex, such that you can't "get" it right away. People who receive recommendations often have higher expectations because of those recommendations. So if I was trying to convince a friend who has played other MMOs to play ESO, I would say something like "We all have a ton of fun on raid nights. You should join! We totally can help you power level and get you gear right away. There's a lot of other stuff to do, but be aware that the 'regular' quest content is super easy and not at all an indication of what it's like in a trial. That content is more aimed at folks who enjoy Elder Scrolls stories. I enjoy it myself, but it may not be your thing." If I was trying to convince a friend who has never played an MMO before to play, just to spend time with them, knowing they'd probably never raid, I'd say "Oh you should totally try it. For your first character, have it be an EP character... that way I can help you in PvP. I'll also start a new character with you so we can level together; it will be fun! The game has been around a long time so it can be overwhelming at first but I'll explain everything. Once you get the hang of it, there's all kinds of stuff you might enjoy on your own - there's a card game and a system for digging up treasures, or you can level up your sneakiness and try your hand at heists!"

You get the idea. Just dropping someone into ESO with no prep and without kind of curating their experience a bit is tough. I mean, I remember when I started. It was completely overwhelming. This is not a new problem with ESO. So many style materials and things I had no idea what to do with. I'd finally kill something and get, like, one gold. Buying anything seemed really out of reach for weeks if not months. There were no guides, no content creators.... I would literally get stuck on quests because they weren't always clear and I wasn't sure if they were bugged or I was missing a puzzle. I jumped into Cyro before my horse was leveled and hated it so much it's amazing anyone convinced me to ever go back. It was literally just running slowly for a long time, dying immediately, and then running slowly again. I also remember thinking it was so dumb that my horse couldn't go through even a puddle without dismounting me.

But yet, I'm still here. Because I'm the type of player that loves leveling and the expansiveness of MMOs. ESO was never meant to be a game to be conquered and captivating in five minutes. In my opinion, it was designed as a slow, grind-it-out MMO with ES lore. I mean, you used to have to level up each horse separately. And gear was character bound. With no option to transmute. And no stickerbook. It's really a cakewalk now! But I do think it's not going to have staying power for players that are quickly turned off by animations or too many things to do when they start, without an additional reason to stick with it (say, a love for ES lore or a desire to play with friends). It's a game for folks who like to uncover things, and explore, and are willing to give a game a solid chance (a few weeks of playing, or I'd say, in ESO, at least getting to 50). Now, perhaps over the years many players who have different values in a game passed through and found things to love about ESO, but I do think there is a difference between trying to make ESO appeal to "all gamers" vs. trying to improve ESO while keeping its initial charm.

Araneae6537 wrote: »

But there are areas with a lot of room for improvement, including more options for how our characters move (personalities are a great start, but I don’t think they alter running and some of the personalities are too exaggerated/ridiculous) and then changes that have been very negative for many longterm players, including templar jabs (now vampiric shovel) and grim focus (I have deleted characters because I cannot stand this irradiated eye sore). Optional updates for animations and character models might be good, but I hesitate given how bad many of the enforced changes of the past two years have been.

Yep, and, if anything, this is my fear. ZOS needs to understand the original point of my post here, building off of the quoted post, that ESO is many different things to many different people. With a game like that, it truly is hard to refresh content without alienating loyal customers. Most of you know my biggest axe to grind on that topic is AwA, but it's certainly not the only one. It was painful to watch highly anticipated ideas be executed in a way that ruins something about ESO for active players. It would take a masterful leader, indeed, to know what to tweak and what to keep, and it becomes a "should they mess with success" question for me. Would all of those people really have stayed if the animations were better? Did they give it a real shot? I'd suspect it's somewhere between not all of them to not most of them.

For fun, since this is a long post anyway, I'll give my take on each observation from the players who left, cited in the opening post.

1- PvP: The summary was pretty much perfect and I really wish PvP would get some attention. I think a common misconception is that there are PvE players or PvP players. But that's not always true... often people play both!!! So even if you personally do not PvP, an investment in PvP will revitalize the whole community. PvP players participate in events, quest, hang around towns, sell stuff in guilds, and play in dungeons and trials. Not all of them do everything, but there's this weird "vs." mentality that gets amplified on the forums, mostly due to people getting upset during PvP events, that makes it seem like the state of PvP doesn't impact all of us. But, it definitely does. And I wish it could be made #1 priority for a while, personally.

2- Inventory: Or perhaps this could really be "difficulty doing basic things while learning." I think we wouldn't lose too much ESO charm if there was a basic acknowledgement that there is so much to do in game that the early grind is no longer necessary and more of a nuisance. Allowing the first characters of new players to, say, have their horse half leveled, and half of their bag upgrades automatically applied, wouldn't hurt anything. Give 3 months of ESO plus to all new accounts. Whatever would help. I've been in ESO from the beginning. But I remembering joining WoW to play with friends when it was well underway. I wouldn't have done it if I couldn't have gotten that level 50 DK to start... I felt too far behind everyone else leveling a character from scratch. The vast amount of content in ESO is good. But, the large hurdles in the beginning to be functional as a player may no longer be needed. If people want to bypass them, let them bypass them. It won't keep them in the game longer at this point. There's YEARS of content if they enjoy the game. YEARS and YEARS.

I also think the inventory situation in general needs improvement for all players. But I've written about that in lots of other places.

3- Too much content: Sorry, I just can't agree that ZOS should stop prioritizing the addition of new zones, or that the appeal of new zones can be boiled down to "another 100 quests." Nor do I think veteran versions of current zones would satisfy the need for new content that current players have. They are all different needs. I think if new players are overwhelmed with all the content, that better tutorials, and additional improvements on herding new players through the game would be best, and there have been many excellent suggestions on the forums along these lines. ZOS tried a while back to work on this but I don't think it was enough. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and all that. I agree that the experience likely is overwhelming for new players, but I don't agree with the conclusion that this means new content should or could stop and we'd be better off.

4- Graphics and animation: Tread carefully! Improvements that, say, 99% of the community will enjoy (I mean, there's always SOMEONE who doesn't like even the most popular change)... that would be great. But there were some recent animation changes that received extremely mixed reviews, causing some folks to abandon characters or quit, because they now hated their only character and didn't want to level a new one. Is it possible to refresh animations in a positive way? I'm sure it's possible. But... I definitely think it's a tread carefully situation.

TL:DR: Great opening post. Great conversations. IMO, if ZOS tries to update ESO to be more appealing to newer players, and enticing them to stick around, they need to be careful not to ruin what they have and/or alienate current players as they attempt this. I think there are some things that could be done in a risk-free way, but for a game where some folks have multiple accounts because they are so into character creation, role playing, and/or the "feel" of the game, caution is warranted.

This.... this is the most cogent post I've ever read on this forum. Thanks for your post @peacenote - that's a pretty masterful summation of the sort of "fighting amongst ourselves" issues that we (well.... I at least) have.

In general, I'm perfectly happy with the game. ESO is a breath of fresh air for me after WoW and RIFT (though I'm in process of regaining my main accounts in RIFT - after losing all the info needed to just log in.... major balls-up, don't ask - just so I can go back to housing that's superlative). I am only a PVE solo player - I don't have any reaction at all to the rest of the game; people play what suits them in a game like this one, and I started with this franchise at Arena's release in 1994.

The things I don't like so much are minor - so minor that I can't even articulate one of them at this point. I have lots of alts, always someone to play; many on both PC megaservers. I happily sub 3 accounts annually. And.... I also still play Oblivion and Skyrim - so yes. I'm a TES junkie....

My problem always is that people who don't seem to have played for long come into this forum and want extravagant changes - because some other game "does it this way and it's better". Aside from changing characters ("updating the graphics") which I've already been through in other games, and which led directly to me canceling accounts and never playing the games again - I'm not really averse to updates to zones, unless (considering the current reduced state of content release) that means that we have less content in order to enable graphics updates to zones....

In other words, I'm on a plethora of "fences" right now. I'm having so much fun in game, I want it to just go on this way forever.

But I also understand that there are many people who think anyone have 80+ characters on 3 accounts across both PC megaservers is a real problem.

Mostly, I just want things to not change in ways that will make me leave this game because it's no longer my girls, or my fun....

vsrs_au

Shagreth wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

...just a few unhappy mainly ex-players on a forum...

This brings up a point I wish they would address.

In my opinion those that do not actively play should not have access to post on the forums. No one can have an accurate view of how the game is today if they haven't experienced it in its current form, and those posts bring nothing constructive to the discussion. I don't know how they would enforce this since a subscription isn't required to play, but I'm sure there could be a way.

In my opinion, anyone that has given money to ZOS at any point can be considered a costumer and should have the right to speak, you'd be surprised how many people are not actively playing but still care for the direction of the game and/or are waiting for the right change to come back. They should have the right to speak and read the forums.

Maybe you are thinking that they may be paid by WoW devs to spread chaos etc. (using this as a silly example) I get that, it's a competitive market and shady stuff like that definitely happen, but not everyone is a paid actor, so I say let them speak.

Agreed. Anyone who isn't an active player (for whatever reason) should definitely still have forum access if they want it. What if they need to ask the active players about the current state of the game, or request information about recent releases and patches?

SilverBride

Adremal wrote: »

...feedback from people who have left even years ago is still viable because the issues that led them to leave are still here...

.... I wish ZOS would engage more with the playerbase when it come to feedback, and I play the game. Others who don't play the game wish for the exact same thing. Why should they be unable to say so?

If an ex player posts "I stopped playing 2 years ago because this was broken" then that was their experience. But to go on and make complaints about how this change and that change since they last played are all bad, then give advice for what the game needs now has no basis if they haven't experienced the current state of the game for themselves.

Adremal

SilverBride wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

...feedback from people who have left even years ago is still viable because the issues that led them to leave are still here...

.... I wish ZOS would engage more with the playerbase when it come to feedback, and I play the game. Others who don't play the game wish for the exact same thing. Why should they be unable to say so?

If an ex player posts "I stopped playing 2 years ago because this was broken" then that was their experience. But to go on and make complaints about how this change and that change since they last played are all bad, then give advice for what the game needs now has no basis if they haven't experienced the current state of the game for themselves.

And you'd want to silence them along with anyone who doesn't currently play, I get it already. Still not a good reason to silence them, by the by, having playing the current state of the game doesn't really correlate to being able to come up with sound ideas. On the other hand someone who left and found something better and would want ESO to also be better should be able to come here and post about it. What's the worse that could happen? I also saw a lot of players with pretty much the same ideas regardless of whether they're actively playing or not. You'd also have them silenced for not playing, despite their ideas being nigh-identical to those of people who do play.

SilverBride

Adremal wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

...feedback from people who have left even years ago is still viable because the issues that led them to leave are still here...

.... I wish ZOS would engage more with the playerbase when it come to feedback, and I play the game. Others who don't play the game wish for the exact same thing. Why should they be unable to say so?

If an ex player posts "I stopped playing 2 years ago because this was broken" then that was their experience. But to go on and make complaints about how this change and that change since they last played are all bad, then give advice for what the game needs now has no basis if they haven't experienced the current state of the game for themselves.

And you'd want to silence them along with anyone who doesn't currently play, I get it already. Still not a good reason to silence them, by the by, having playing the current state of the game doesn't really correlate to being able to come up with sound ideas. On the other hand someone who left and found something better and would want ESO to also be better should be able to come here and post about it. What's the worse that could happen? I also saw a lot of players with pretty much the same ideas regardless of whether they're actively playing or not. You'd also have them silenced for not playing, despite their ideas being nigh-identical to those of people who do play.

The forums should be for active players to discuss the game they are playing and have first hand knowledge of.

[Edited to clarify]

Adremal

SilverBride wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

...feedback from people who have left even years ago is still viable because the issues that led them to leave are still here...

.... I wish ZOS would engage more with the playerbase when it come to feedback, and I play the game. Others who don't play the game wish for the exact same thing. Why should they be unable to say so?

If an ex player posts "I stopped playing 2 years ago because this was broken" then that was their experience. But to go on and make complaints about how this change and that change since they last played are all bad, then give advice for what the game needs now has no basis if they haven't experienced the current state of the game for themselves.

And you'd want to silence them along with anyone who doesn't currently play, I get it already. Still not a good reason to silence them, by the by, having playing the current state of the game doesn't really correlate to being able to come up with sound ideas. On the other hand someone who left and found something better and would want ESO to also be better should be able to come here and post about it. What's the worse that could happen? I also saw a lot of players with pretty much the same ideas regardless of whether they're actively playing or not. You'd also have them silenced for not playing, despite their ideas being nigh-identical to those of people who do play.

The forums should be for active players to discuss the game they are playing and the game they have first hand knowledge of. Someone that left the game shouldn't be telling those of us who are playing what this game needs.

[Edited to clarify]

I for one I'm glad ZOS disagrees with your stance and allows players taking a break to share their point of view, which is in some cases less informed, in some cases equally valid and in some cases even more insightful than that of those who play (who might only be playing ESO and thus have less insights when it comes to alternatives). ESO doesn't exist in a vacuum.

HowlKimchi

SilverBride wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

...feedback from people who have left even years ago is still viable because the issues that led them to leave are still here...

.... I wish ZOS would engage more with the playerbase when it come to feedback, and I play the game. Others who don't play the game wish for the exact same thing. Why should they be unable to say so?

If an ex player posts "I stopped playing 2 years ago because this was broken" then that was their experience. But to go on and make complaints about how this change and that change since they last played are all bad, then give advice for what the game needs now has no basis if they haven't experienced the current state of the game for themselves.

And you'd want to silence them along with anyone who doesn't currently play, I get it already. Still not a good reason to silence them, by the by, having playing the current state of the game doesn't really correlate to being able to come up with sound ideas. On the other hand someone who left and found something better and would want ESO to also be better should be able to come here and post about it. What's the worse that could happen? I also saw a lot of players with pretty much the same ideas regardless of whether they're actively playing or not. You'd also have them silenced for not playing, despite their ideas being nigh-identical to those of people who do play.

The forums should be for active players to discuss the game they are playing and the game they have first hand knowledge of. Someone that left the game shouldn't be telling those of us who are playing what this game needs.

[Edited to clarify]

The forums are for anyone with an account who cares enough to come and voice their opinions. There are no right or wrong opinions. Someone who left can definitely say why they left. They can even convince people to quit the game if they wanted.

Actually, there are probably 2 types of people who visit forums. Those who really like the game, and those who really hate or are disappointed in the game. And both have something in common. They are passionate enough to voice out their opinions. Those who are enjoying the game or disliked the game and quit but are more chill about it, would never visit the forums.

SilverBride

Adremal wrote: »

I for one I'm glad ZOS disagrees with your stance and allows players taking a break to share their point of view, which is in some cases less informed, in some cases equally valid and in some cases even more insightful than that of those who play (who might only be playing ESO and thus have less insights when it comes to alternatives). ESO doesn't exist in a vacuum.

ZoS hasn't said whether they agree or not. Just because this hasn't been changed yet doesn't mean it never will.

I stand by my opinion and hope ZoS will take it under consideration.

Adremal

SilverBride wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

I for one I'm glad ZOS disagrees with your stance and allows players taking a break to share their point of view, which is in some cases less informed, in some cases equally valid and in some cases even more insightful than that of those who play (who might only be playing ESO and thus have less insights when it comes to alternatives). ESO doesn't exist in a vacuum.

ZoS hasn't said whether they agree or not. Just because this hasn't been changed yet doesn't mean it never will.

I stand by my opinion and hope ZoS will take it under consideration.

I stand by mine and advise you not to hold your breath. It'd be a PR suicide. Glad nothing points at them going for such an unheard of draconian restriction.

evymyu233

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Fact is, ESO running animations are simply bad looking. You might like it, good for you. But they keep many players from engaging further than an hours log in becasue like you said, people play games for enjoyment and there is no enjoyment in experiencing bad running animations (and ESo Mounts REALLY take the cake here).

guar running and jumping is cute.i love watch guars

Pelanora

SilverBride wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

Why on Earth would you suggest such a totalitarian restriction is frankly beyond me.

Because it makes sense. How can a poster give feedback on something they haven't experienced themselves? Playing even a year ago is not the same as playing today so all feedback given by these posters would be based on an outdated experience.

I don't understand why a poster that has left the game and moved on is still posting.

I don't understand why a discussion on a forum should be taken so personally.

If the thread is of no interest, or does not accord with how someone plays the game..... why keep posting in the thread?

I think asking for someone to get kicked off a forum, or saying who should never get to post, is pretty extreme.

HowlKimchi

SilverBride wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

I for one I'm glad ZOS disagrees with your stance and allows players taking a break to share their point of view, which is in some cases less informed, in some cases equally valid and in some cases even more insightful than that of those who play (who might only be playing ESO and thus have less insights when it comes to alternatives). ESO doesn't exist in a vacuum.

ZoS hasn't said whether they agree or not. Just because this hasn't been changed yet doesn't mean it never will.

I stand by my opinion and hope ZoS will take it under consideration.

I'm pretty confident that ZoS agrees and encourages old players to look at and comment on the game. Their goal is to grow the playerbase, why would they do anything that could discourage potential returning players, such as censoring them? It's more like "hey old player, come check out the game now we made it better!"

I've been playing on and off since before launch. I've been frustrated at the game and all that. And on more than one occasion, a trip to the forums is what made me start playing again.

SeaGtGruff

With respect to negative feedback, as well as comments from past users who left the game some time ago, I suspect that ZOS is definitely interested in hearing that.

Consider the story that Rich once told about how he first got into this line of work many years ago. In brief, he went to some kind of job application where he was asked to play a game and then give feedback about it. If I remember the tale correctly, he ended up filling the notebook he'd been provided. I'm pretty sure it wasn't all just glowing praise for the game, but instead was page after page of criticisms and suggestions about changes. And that is what got him hired, because that was exactly the kind of thing the game company was looking for.

Consider all of the negative and critical posts which the moderators allow in this forum. Some people like to claim that any sort of criticism will end up getting a post deleted or edited, or will result in the poster getting a ban or time-out, but as far as I've seen that only happens with posts that go too far in crossing certain lines, as long as it isn't slanderous or bashing the devs personally then negative criticism is appreciated I think.

SydneyGrey

I think they really need to update the textures in the base game zones. When a person is coming from a game that has truly great graphics, zones like Auridon or Alik'r won't seem quite as pretty as what they're used to. It's off-putting for some people.

Tandor

peacenote wrote: »

<snip> I do think, though, that ESO as a game is hard to explain, because there's nothing else quite like it and the world and features are so vast. And this results in a very diverse community, logging in every day for a wide variety of reasons, such that the internal "this is my favorite thing about ESO, the thing that keeps me here" reason per person also is much more varied across the community compared to most games. Are you here because you're an Elder Scrolls fan? Are you here because it's an MMO? Because you raid? Because you PvP? Because it's a vast world with a lot of content that is solo-able? I mean, I could go on and on. <snip>

This is why I have previously suggested that it's impossible to consider the reasons given by players' friends on trying out the game without knowing their gaming background - and therefore what they were looking for in ESO. I suspect that a lot of the criticisms of ESO and its combat system come from PvPers, which is absolutely fine but we know that PvP is the weakest part of the game and in need of the most improvement, not least in respect of server performance with lag likely to be a massive factor in assessing the "clunkiness" of combat, so it wouldn't be surprising if those particular friends were put off by the PvP as well as finding the PvE content overwhelming when that's not what they were interested in.

Foxxal

I've had the same issue with animations. I tried to onboard 20 people the past 2 years, none of them are playing now. The number one complaint was weapon animations, "the greatsword feels floaty", "my fire staff has a broken animation when I heavy attack", and "why do the arrows clip through my quiver when I draw one". A few liked the story but couldn't get past the animation issues and it broke their immersion and roleplaying. The swords and back weapons floating off your character randomly when using a lot of shoulder motifs also didn't help.

Pelanora

^^ yea, and the fire staff animation and sound is like the most pathetic firecracker. Embarrasing thing to fire off.

shmity72

Surgee wrote: »

Let me start off by saying that I'm a big ESO fan. Despite its issues, I think it's the best MMORPG Sandbox out there. I've played it since beta on PC, and moved to Xbox on console release. There are not many games that can compete with ESO but the player base is still far from where it should be, considering how massive the game is. So of course, because of how much I like the game, I always try to get my friends or relatives to play it. The results are not surprising to me, but might be surprising to ZOS because at least from my experience, it shows the money is put into the wrong place. I'll put it in bullet points to make it easy to digest, with the most mentioned to the least mentioned.

It's important to note that ALL of the people I asked showed interest in trying the game and did give it a shot.

Reasons why the people I ask didn't stay with the game for long or don't want to return:

The animations are awful, especially the running animation

Yep! This is the number one reason. This was mentioned by almost every single person that tried the game. You might think that' its a non-issue, but you' be surprised how many people don't want to play ESO just because they can't stand looking at their character run. It's especially stark when you come right away from a different game. There's a very good reason companies focus now on the presentation of the playable character. I think just redoing some major animations that players spend looking at 90% of their play time, such as walking or running, would make a massive difference and YES it would bring some people to the game.

The graphics are bad

2nd most mentioned reason. I think It's a pretty MMORPG, but I agree some things such as lighting can be improved. I believe most of the comments about graphics were a result of bad animations though. World of Warcraft has fantastic animations and that's what makes it look "nicer" compared to ESO. Anyway, whether you like it or not, visual presentation is what makes people try the game, and content is what makes them stick around.

Imperial City needs a refresh, Cyrodil needs a refresh

This comes from the PVP players that quit, or PVP-focused players in general and that player base is massive in any game that respects PVP. Cyrodil is boring, There's no attachment to castles. It's just constant running from castle to castle without caring if you'll lose it or not. Black Desert Online has much more interesting systems that keeps players involved. Imperial City is great but depressing and needs a rework. Arenas are great, but matchmaking is awful. People sometimes wait few hours for a single match. Some love for PVP would bring a lot of players.

Why they keep adding new zones and quests? It's overwhelming already!

Ok, now this is a massive issue and I share that view. The game has so much PVE content (and most of it behind a paywall) that new players are right away overwhelmed. And you know what? Adding even more zones and quests is ZOS's absolute focus. It honestly scares every single person I talked with. People are mind-blown that this is where most of the money goes. And it doesn't help that the zones are extremely boring because of lack of challenge. You do this super long questline to defeat a boss that dies from a slap in the face. Many suggested VETERAN VERSION OF ZONES. The same zone, veteran server, much harder and requires a group like in a dungeon, but rewards are of much much better quality. This would make it exciting to explore a new zone in a group.

In the 1st hour of gameplay i don't have space in my inventory...This game is a chore! Oh wait.. I have to buy a subscription

We know it won't go away, but new players being greeted with inventory management within the 1st hour of the game is not great. It really discourages people from continuing before they discover what the game really is.

Conclusion:

So here it is. I know that this will not align with the opinions of the majority on these forums. You are on these forums because for the most part I assume you like and play the game. The opinions I've listed were gathered over the years by me from people who quit the game or gave up after a short run. I agree with most of it and it made me realize that some general improvements to the game's presentation and mechanics would bring much more players than adding another 100 quests. There was not a single person who complained that they don't play ESO because there's not enough content. It's the opposite. It's too much.

Anyway, I don't want to argue on whether this is right or wrong. I simply gathered some opinions directly and wanted to share my findings. I hope this will be useful to ZOS and they'll consider it, when planning the future of ESO.

shmity72

TBH there are many PPL coming back to the game. ZOS has done a LOT to enhance graphics in the game, while keeping the system specs available to many who have computers that cannot process these extra graphical enhancements. PPL are coming back BECAUSE of the graphical improvements, as well as many other changes. Have you seen the mouth movements when an NPC talks? Here is one fan film that we are currently making:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/654939/eso-fan-fiction-movie-godslayer#latest

Because of this graphical power in Elder Scrolls, our team of volunteers and I are able to create such works. I hope this helps you see the promise that this game has for it's loyal fanbase.

Sincerely, Shmity

P.S. There are also a number of other films that may be found on fanfarepassionprojects which you may enjoy.

heaven13

Surgee wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

It's a subjective view always, but I don't consider the animations to be awful or the graphics bad, some of that may depend on your specs and settings, but every game has its detractors and its supporters where graphics and animations are concerned.

The base game graphics are extremely dated compared to the newer chapter graphics. This could be one of the issues. I know it pulls me out of the game. Meaning while I am running around in high isle I am loving my time, the second I port to glenumbra, auridon or any base zone, all bets are off (deshan and stonefalls being the worst).

As far as animations. I think that one is harder to quantify because you have to first be in a place of coming from a game where the animations were done extemely well (wow is a shining example of this). WoWs character and mount animations feel extremely connected to the ground, either while running, mounted or in combat. This was the FIRST thing I noticed when coming to ESO. I actually laughed at contrast between the games. SWTOR animal mounts are the same, they feel bad. Speeders float so...meh no real animation happening there.

As time goes on, you get used to it and accept it for what it is but there is definitely a disconnect between the mount and player animations in this game vs her contemporatries.

On a personal note. I also hate that everyone runs the same. I miss that male taurens and female taurens have different run animations vs male and female humans or male and female gnomes or elves or orcs or trolls or goblins, or panderans and on and on.

It always felt cheap to me, like a develoment shortcut. I won't presume that was or is the case, but it has been done in other games so food for thought.

IYou're looking at it from a perspective of person coming to ESO from another MMO. The thing is, they either come from Skyrim (which still is heaps better) or other games that aren't MMOS. I play quite a bit of Conan exiles which is a very old game, and still the animations look generations ahead of ESO. The sprinting animation is just so bad it hurts to look at. I understand that for many here ESO is the only game you play, so you're used to it, but someone that launches the game for the first time gets automatically put off by the animations and visual presentation.

Actually, my girlfriend got into gaming a month ago. She played some single player games and then got totally sucked into Conan Exiles. She can't stop playing this game and loves looking at her characters animation and physics. I made her try ESO in hopes she likes it as she loves fantasy stuff. The first thing she said when the tutorial loaded is "oh my god she runs so awful...this is so bad". Then she proceeded to say the same thing every 2 minutes until she said she can't look at it anymore. "It's horrible". Her words.

Anyway, there's no excuse to not have better animations. MMO or not. I can't think of a single MMO or online RPG game with worse or similarly bad animations.

Hello fellow Exile! I recently came back to ESO after a lot of CE binging and both mount movement and character movement really felt off compared to the other. I played ESO for quite some time so it didn't take too long to adjust back but it is quite the stark contrast for sure.

ADarklore

TBH, if someone leaves ESO because of them claiming it being due to 'animation' or 'graphics', then clearly they really weren't into the game in the first place and are just using that as an excuse. Perhaps they were just 'being nice' to the person who invited them to play ESO, instead of outright insulting the game they were invited to play. I've had many co-workers say they started ESO but just 'couldn't get into it'... which is fair. Not all games can appeal to all people, but I think nit-picking graphics or animations in ESO is a bridge too far IMO. I think you could almost call those players 'high maintenance', and there are probably few games they will actually like.

I've played numerous games, from MMOs to single player games, and ESO's graphics and animations are perfectly fine in comparison. Sure, some games are better, but some are also far worse. Just my two cents.