Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

RomanRex

Those scoreboards prove MY point not yours.

While the death count is low, the kills are comparable or lower than others playing. So, you can be defensive and not be the most lethal. Similarly, I see him grouped with a known OP healer in at least one of those matches which makes a big difference.

This skill change made sorcs more competitive without pets, not overpowered. Exactly as intended! Thank you ZOS!

StaticWave

Nobody has taken my challenge still. I'll repeat it once more:

1) Get on any class that isn't Sorc
2) Run a build with <30k HP and <25k resistances
3) Use only 1 burst heal and 1 HoT, you can stack as many healing/damage modifiers as you want
4) Face tank anyone in a duel that can deal 6k+ DPS
5) Use that same build in BGs and Cyrodiil

If you can complete all these challenges and post a video here, I will ask the mods to shut down this thread. None of this arguing back and forth. Just prove me wrong with that yea? After all, you guys are the ones who claim other classes can do the same?

StaticWave

RomanRex wrote: »

Those scoreboards prove MY point not yours.

While the death count is low, the kills are comparable or lower than others playing. So, you can be defensive and not be the most lethal. Similarly, I see him grouped with a known OP healer in at least one of those matches which makes a big difference.

This skill change made sorcs more competitive without pets, not overpowered. Exactly as intended! Thank you ZOS!

No, they don't prove your point lol. IncutaWolf doesn't play Sorc. You can't just hop on a new class and score more than 6 kills without dying in a high MMR BG lol.

IncultaWolf

RomanRex wrote: »

I am a sorc main with high MMR. Was in Chaosball BG group earlier today with IncultaWolf, but he dropped from team just a few minutes in and didn’t finish the match. That is to say, I see the same matches he does and don’t see what people are complaining about at all.

I don’t find a 10 second clip to be “proof”. Need to see the context of the whole match and how the sorcs on the field actually stacked up to everyone else not just in one clip of engagement.

I would provide “proof” but you can’t prove the negative, unless dying periodically despite using ward is the proof. This is a wonderful and welcomed change for non-pet sorcs!

Yeah I crashed like 4 times earlier during my battleground matches, it happens sometimes.

HowlKimchi

StaticWave wrote: »

Nobody has taken my challenge still. I'll repeat it once more:

1) Get on any class that isn't Sorc
2) Run a build with <30k HP and <25k resistances
3) Use only 1 burst heal and 1 HoT, you can stack as many healing/damage modifiers as you want
4) Face tank anyone in a duel that can deal 6k+ DPS
5) Use that same build in BGs and Cyrodiil

If you can complete all these challenges and post a video here, I will ask the mods to shut down this thread. None of this arguing back and forth. Just prove me wrong with that yea? After all, you guys are the ones who claim other classes can do the same?

Put some money into the challenge and maybe people will do it haha.

RomanRex

StaticWave wrote: »

I will ask the mods to shut down this thread. None of this arguing back and forth.

I agree with this, but your hypothetical test is niche and not needed. I feel that the reaction to this change is overblown, non-pet sorc players are immensely grateful for the change (after many, many years of waiting) and it makes them more competitive but not overpowered in PvP.

I am leaving this here. Suffice it to say, I don’t believe your claim of a unique build being god-tier because of one skill has been demonstrated. Someone else can take it up if they want.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Actually my argument is that the outcome would be the same. I've been very clear that how they get there is different but that you could fight someone and have just as hard a time killing them while they still have reasonable damage.

So you are telling me that the outcome would be the same if other classes also run a build with <25k resistances, <30k HP, and only use 1 burst heal + 1 occasional HoT? Yea right

No I'm saying that the overall outcome of the fight will look similar or the tactics I use would still apply. Like I said, yes they get there different ways, sorc uses shield with a heal, Arcanist uses shields with a heal with a minigame, warden uses a big fat health based heal, etc etc. I surely might have a hard time killing this sorc solo but I have a hard time killing many classes and players solo and it's not a big deal to to me.

What I'm saying is the particulars of the fight are always up in the air, what's important to ask and know would be is there counterplay of some sort?

In a lot of situations these days the counterplay basically is grouping up because players are just so tanky and come with heals and so on. So to me as long as this sorc cant face tank a group without trying or moving then it's similar to any other class I'll face

Tonight alone I've faced DKs, Wardens, NB,s that were hard to kill and had enough damage to possibly kill me so why would I be worried if it's a sorc on the other end as long as I have some way to kill it and it can't easily kill me?


As I've already said Procanist was one of the worst things to face in recent times because it had enough damage to kill you and was very hard to then kill but it is still killable as long as you're working in groups, that's the balance of the game. So why would I need to be concerned if sorc is doing something very similar with of course the sorc's particular kit?

The videos aren't showing anything too far away from the norm of the game in my opinion.

IncultaWolf

StaticWave wrote: »

Nobody has taken my challenge still. I'll repeat it once more:

1) Get on any class that isn't Sorc
2) Run a build with <30k HP and <25k resistances
3) Use only 1 burst heal and 1 HoT, you can stack as many healing/damage modifiers as you want
4) Face tank anyone in a duel that can deal 6k+ DPS
5) Use that same build in BGs and Cyrodiil

If you can complete all these challenges and post a video here, I will ask the mods to shut down this thread. None of this arguing back and forth. Just prove me wrong with that yea? After all, you guys are the ones who claim other classes can do the same?

Nobody will take the challenge because it's not possible, sorcerer is the only class that can do this, and it's not fair. I wish my necromancer could just press one button ability and tank out ultimates with less than 30k hp and no vigor, hots, and low resists.

Again, I dueled a corrosive dragonknight and just spammed hardened ward until their ult was up, what other class can do that with one button?! When I'm on any other class I have to block, cast my heals, vigor, and line of sight sometimes to survive, on sorc, press one skill and that's it

Sucks to hop on this class and feel like I am cheating compared to what I usually play. I just wish the combat/class balance was better.

StaticWave

RomanRex wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I will ask the mods to shut down this thread. None of this arguing back and forth.

I agree with this, but your hypothetical test is niche and not needed. I feel that the reaction to this change is overblown, non-pet sorc players are immensely grateful for the change (after many, many years of waiting) and it makes them more competitive but not overpowered in PvP.

I am leaving this here. Suffice it to say, I don’t believe your claim of a unique build being god-tier because of one skill has been demonstrated. Someone else can take it up if they want.

Why would it be niche? Sorc is currently the only class that can pull that off, and I've already discussed the massive advantages Sorc has over other classes with this change in terms of GCD cost. If you refuse to understand this then I'm sorry but we aren't speaking on common grounds.

StaticWave

IncultaWolf wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Nobody has taken my challenge still. I'll repeat it once more:

1) Get on any class that isn't Sorc
2) Run a build with <30k HP and <25k resistances
3) Use only 1 burst heal and 1 HoT, you can stack as many healing/damage modifiers as you want
4) Face tank anyone in a duel that can deal 6k+ DPS
5) Use that same build in BGs and Cyrodiil

If you can complete all these challenges and post a video here, I will ask the mods to shut down this thread. None of this arguing back and forth. Just prove me wrong with that yea? After all, you guys are the ones who claim other classes can do the same?

Nobody will take the challenge because it's not possible, sorcerer is the only class that can do this, and it's not fair. I wish my necromancer could just press one button ability and tank out ultimates with less than 30k hp and no vigor, hots, and low resists.

Again, I dueled a corrosive dragonknight and just spammed hardened ward until their ult was up, what other class can do that with one button?! When I'm on any other class I have to block, cast my heals, vigor, and line of sight sometimes to survive, on sorc, press one skill and that's it

Sucks to hop on this class and feel like I am cheating compared to what I usually play. I just wish the combat/class balance was better.

Right. Even though other classes are also tanky, they still need to have a sufficient amount of resistances, crit resistance, several HoTs, and a decent amount of block casting to be tanky. This class just does it in a full damage build with sub 25k resistances and 1 skill for defense. I regularly hit them for 7-8k spammables but they just don't die lol. Regular classes would die in a heart beat if they took that amount of damage.

A wizard that can teleport and also face tank while having insane burst. Something is wrong here

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

HowlKimchi wrote: »

I gotta say, I commend you for continuing this discussion with Bushido who keeps moving the goalpost and has long statements but actually has little substance. Meanwhile you've been concise the whole time. A bit aggressive, but at least you have direct to the point statements.

Here's what it went, chronologically:

- I and several people raised concern about Ward overperforming 1st day on PTS ===> Bushido and other guys disagreed.
- Patch dropped and people who didn't participate in PTS also agreed Ward overperforms ===> Bushido and other guys still disagreed because "people are still excited about the meta and overreact".
- I posted clips and screenshots of Sorc tanking 6-9k DPS in a full damage build with 1 unreliable HoT and Ward ===> Bushido and other guys disagreed, saying "other classes can do it too" and "the game isn't balanced around 1v1s".
- There are people who commented on this thread saying they tried Sorc for the first time or dusted off the class, took it to Cyrodiil and did really well with it ===> Bushido and other guys said "other classes can do it too"
- I asked for evidence to prove other classes can do the same, with the same resistances, same amount of healing ===> Nothing from them, but they keep arguing.

All of that arguing, while almost none of them haven't participated in a single PTS cycle. It almost seems like people who didn't participate shouldn't have an opinion on how a skill is or is not overperforming....

My opinion is simply that what I'm seeing and hearing doesn't sound that different then what the spirit of the game already is overall and that I don't see a clear issue here.

But I'm not going by something I've never seen. I'm watching others that are playing on PC who don't seem to think it's a big deal

Malcom, who is a much better mag sorc main then myself and who is playing on pc even said that he just think sorc is up there with the rest of the classes now. Though he did say he wanted to give things some time to see where they go.

So it's not just me the person that isn't on PC that's saying hey this doesn't look so bad. I was watching a stream that Jensen recorded and he seemed pretty ok with just playing sorc. In general I've watched a few players that don't really seem to think the sorc change seems to be all that.

I'm not discounting what you or others here are saying just saying that there are people on both sides who I think genuinely do and don't think this change is ok.


I'll give you a difference that I don't notice here. When Arcanist was everywhere with proc sets people just became sic of seeing them and the garbage of them being tanky and having damage and stuns/roots that might actually kill you.

Sorc change hasn't been in place all that long but I'm not hearing anyone really talk the same way or get all upset when they see a sorc. Now yes people do notice a lot more sorcs around and that is what it is but generally I don't hear a lot of people complaining about it as they play the game. That might change with time but for now I'm just not seeing a bunch of signals that says this is a horrible change that has produced unkillable mobile nuclear silos.

Aces-High-82

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Okay, only took a couple battlegrounds to get a funny clip of me standing still spamming hardened ward and face tanking multiple ultimates before rolling away and popping a potion, streaking, and moving on with the match.

This is a high mmr battleground, no CP enabled, with multiple good 5 star rank pvpers parsing on me. I don't have vigor, or any heals other than hardened ward here, and I have less than 30k hp. What other class can do this? It's pretty silly. Corrosive dragonknights? Naah not even a threat anymore just press the button and sit there and laugh. Reminder that I don't even play sorcerer that much and this is an argonian lol. I also have really high damage and constantly get the highest kdr in my matches.

https://youtu.be/zPcrUAdJ1nQ?si=T95y_rIeazzkDQ8_

As soon as you got focused you had to dodge and break los. Nothing special to see here....

StaticWave

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Okay, only took a couple battlegrounds to get a funny clip of me standing still spamming hardened ward and face tanking multiple ultimates before rolling away and popping a potion, streaking, and moving on with the match.

This is a high mmr battleground, no CP enabled, with multiple good 5 star rank pvpers parsing on me. I don't have vigor, or any heals other than hardened ward here, and I have less than 30k hp. What other class can do this? It's pretty silly. Corrosive dragonknights? Naah not even a threat anymore just press the button and sit there and laugh. Reminder that I don't even play sorcerer that much and this is an argonian lol. I also have really high damage and constantly get the highest kdr in my matches.

https://youtu.be/zPcrUAdJ1nQ?si=T95y_rIeazzkDQ8_

As soon as you got focused you had to dodge and break los. Nothing special to see here....

He's not proccing Crit Surge though. Shield can mitigate maybe up to 4.5k DPS but he still needs a HoT to complement lol.

IncultaWolf

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Okay, only took a couple battlegrounds to get a funny clip of me standing still spamming hardened ward and face tanking multiple ultimates before rolling away and popping a potion, streaking, and moving on with the match.

This is a high mmr battleground, no CP enabled, with multiple good 5 star rank pvpers parsing on me. I don't have vigor, or any heals other than hardened ward here, and I have less than 30k hp. What other class can do this? It's pretty silly. Corrosive dragonknights? Naah not even a threat anymore just press the button and sit there and laugh. Reminder that I don't even play sorcerer that much and this is an argonian lol. I also have really high damage and constantly get the highest kdr in my matches.

https://youtu.be/zPcrUAdJ1nQ?si=T95y_rIeazzkDQ8_

As soon as you got focused you had to dodge and break los. Nothing special to see here....

Absorbing 3 ults with one button is fair right? I had no hots, no vigor, no crit surge, and 29k hp, all I did was press hardened ward and it did all of that. Now imagine if I had crit surge and vigor up, I could have sat there for way longer, the point of the video was to show just how strong the shield itself is. NO OTHER CLASS CAN DO THIS, please prove me wrong.

Zabagad

StaticWave wrote: »

2) Run a build with <30k HP and <25k resistances

I see no reason at all for a condition like that.
I'm not able to do your challange anyway, but that condition makes no sence.
You say that condition is, because Sorc can do that - but then I make a challange to you with:
1) Get on any other class then NB
2) Go invisible on will minimum every 10s
....

My point and my opinion - that limitation should be changed to do X damage with a spammable like CS or whatever.
So - other builds with 40K+ health and stacked wpn damage are not excluded - even if they could do the same damage output. I cannot do that - but maybe a warden or arc are able to do it then?

I already asked 3-4 days ago for looking for the right values/nerfs - but instead you all are still doing senceless back and force.
And I'm pretty sure - even if they make a
a) HoT instead - you and others will claim "Sorc still can outheal X DPS"
and even better
b) no heal at all - you and/or others will claim "Sorc still can outheal X+2 DPS with 2 skills" (Ward and Vigor)

So - I still wait for a discussion/solution where Sorc is not OP anymore - within the same argumentation.
And again - I'm ok with a reasonably nerf, but the argumentation looks strange sometimes for me....
(btw you claim now again sorc has the best mobility - even if you said otherwise during U39-U40)

StaticWave

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

2) Run a build with <30k HP and <25k resistances

I see no reason at all for a condition like that.
I'm not able to do your challange anyway, but that condition makes no sence.
You say that condition is, because Sorc can do that - but then I make a challange to you with:
1) Get on any other class then NB
2) Go invisible on will minimum every 10s

Lol, you are not using the correct condition. Hardened Ward = Healthy Offering, not Hardened Ward = Cloak. Streak = Cloak would be more appropriate.

So my condition is still valid. I'm claiming that no class in the game other than Sorc can tank with just a burst heal and 1 HoT. Bringing Cloak into the equation is irrelevant.

Bushido2513

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Okay, only took a couple battlegrounds to get a funny clip of me standing still spamming hardened ward and face tanking multiple ultimates before rolling away and popping a potion, streaking, and moving on with the match.

This is a high mmr battleground, no CP enabled, with multiple good 5 star rank pvpers parsing on me. I don't have vigor, or any heals other than hardened ward here, and I have less than 30k hp. What other class can do this? It's pretty silly. Corrosive dragonknights? Naah not even a threat anymore just press the button and sit there and laugh. Reminder that I don't even play sorcerer that much and this is an argonian lol. I also have really high damage and constantly get the highest kdr in my matches.

https://youtu.be/zPcrUAdJ1nQ?si=T95y_rIeazzkDQ8_

As soon as you got focused you had to dodge and break los. Nothing special to see here....

Absorbing 3 ults with one button is fair right? I had no hots, no vigor, no crit surge, and 29k hp, all I did was press hardened ward and it did all of that. Now imagine if I had crit surge and vigor up, I could have sat there for way longer, the point of the video was to show just how strong the shield itself is. NO OTHER CLASS CAN DO THIS, please prove me wrong.

You popped s potion on an argonian so some of the time you took damage was allowed by that. If you had vigor up you'd be then layering which is what most classes do..


The constraints required to make this test run don't even really fit the spirit of what group pvp really is.

I'm starting to think that even if nobody can do it on another class it's not that important because you were still going to die when people focused you and that's fair enough.

Yes you could streak away and reset but everyone can run and that's fine too.

You could live longer if you added heals but that's every player so again that's fair.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

2) Run a build with <30k HP and <25k resistances

I see no reason at all for a condition like that.
I'm not able to do your challange anyway, but that condition makes no sence.
You say that condition is, because Sorc can do that - but then I make a challange to you with:
1) Get on any other class then NB
2) Go invisible on will minimum every 10s

Lol, you are not using the correct condition. Hardened Ward = Healthy Offering, not Hardened Ward = Cloak. Streak = Cloak would be more appropriate.

So my condition is still valid. I'm claiming that no class in the game other than Sorc can tank with just a burst heal and 1 HoT. Bringing Cloak into the equation is irrelevant.

And so what if they can't? The only place that's any more relevant in the game is really dueling.

I've been watching people run similar builds and from what I can see some can still die 1v1 and all can be focused down. So what makes this a special case then?

You can say 1 skill but like I said the build still dies one skill or not.

Yes we can say what about gcd differences but again, the build still seems to die as much as other classes that can take a hit.

Sure you're in two damage sets but again what does that even matter being that most players that aren't potatoes have builds that can survive just fine or at least to enough degree that this build isn't going to result in everyone being able to suddenly get an x.



I'm saying your math is right and I don't know if anyone could complete your challenge but with all of that being said I'm not hearing or seeing that the majority so far find this change to be all that bad. Now this may change over time I admit but so far reactions seem about 50/50 or less being in favor of people being ok mostly with the change.


I'm still keeping an open mind as I think this needs time to be observed one way or another but for now yeah I'm not seeing a big problem in the greater scope of PVP

Zabagad

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

2) Run a build with <30k HP and <25k resistances

I see no reason at all for a condition like that.
I'm not able to do your challange anyway, but that condition makes no sence.
You say that condition is, because Sorc can do that - but then I make a challange to you with:
1) Get on any other class then NB
2) Go invisible on will minimum every 10s

Lol, you are not using the correct condition. Hardened Ward = Healthy Offering, not Hardened Ward = Cloak. Streak = Cloak would be more appropriate.

So my condition is still valid. I'm claiming that no class in the game other than Sorc can tank with just a burst heal and 1 HoT. Bringing Cloak into the equation is irrelevant.

Lol - I guess you didn't get my point(s)...
Hint: It wasn't about cloak vs. ward at all...

And even more important that you refused to give any answer to my real point again...

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

And so what if they can't? The only place that's any more relevant in the game is really dueling.

But it isn't. I can just as easily slot Vigor instead of Bound Aegis, and still be over 50k magicka, which is where it all starts to become super aids to fight against (Even 45-48k mag is super aids to fight against if you slot Rallying Cry), and gain another strong HoT.

So take this build for example:

- Chudan/Crafty/Wretched/DDF, Mage Mundus, HP + Mag food, Dark Elf race. This is what many people are currently using for OW.

I still have 30k HP, 50k max mag, and 20k+ stam even if I don't slot Bound Aegis. It'd be 53.8k if I slot it, but that's irrelevant for now.

So now I still have a strong shield, good HP, and Vigor with a 25k tooltip on back bar in No CP. That's 2 HoTs + a shield and burst heal. How do you expect to kill me lol? My stamSorc literally has the same abilities. I have Surge, Vigor, Dark Deal/Conversion, and a burst heal. Literally the same as magSorc, but I'm not as tanky because no 13k ward and 8k heal tooltip .

I know you're going to say something along the lines of "other classes can do the same" or "you won't have enough damage", but that's false. I still land 12k frags on squishies and 9k frags on properly built players. Sorc damage has not changed much other than the extra 10% mag, but it's gotten overly tanky with the Ward change, and that is mainly what I'm concerned about, especially when it also has Streak.

xylena_lazarow

RomanRex wrote: »

I am a sorc main with high MMR... This is a wonderful and welcomed change for non-pet sorcs

High MMR comes from playtime, not win rate. Playtime often correlates with win rate, but not always. If you were a high MMR player struggling to survive on sorc before u41, that's a skill issue on your part, not a game imbalance.

StaticWave

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

2) Run a build with <30k HP and <25k resistances

I see no reason at all for a condition like that.
I'm not able to do your challange anyway, but that condition makes no sence.
You say that condition is, because Sorc can do that - but then I make a challange to you with:
1) Get on any other class then NB
2) Go invisible on will minimum every 10s

Lol, you are not using the correct condition. Hardened Ward = Healthy Offering, not Hardened Ward = Cloak. Streak = Cloak would be more appropriate.

So my condition is still valid. I'm claiming that no class in the game other than Sorc can tank with just a burst heal and 1 HoT. Bringing Cloak into the equation is irrelevant.

Lol - I guess you didn't get my point(s)...
Hint: It wasn't about cloak vs. ward at all...

And even more important that you refused to give any answer to my real point again...

Your point didn't make sense, that's why I refuted it. You were comparing apples and oranges.

And as for your questions. You can make Sorc good defensively without over-buffing, such as:

1) Remove the cast time of 1 morph of Dark Exchange, reduce the cost slightly, keep the non-scalable tooltip, and greatly reduce the resource return. Make the other morph return both stam and mag for a reduced value to bring Sorc up-to-date with hybridization.

This will ensure that Sorc still has a burst heal to use when they are low, and the tooltip is equivalent to Hardened Ward's burst heal when you stack over 55k max mag. The main difference is Sorc will have to expend an extra GCD, which will allow for counter play

2) Rework Crit Surge to be a passive HoT that doesn't require critting, which will allow it to be a reliable HoT. It should heal for around 1k/s non crit, which I think is reasonable considering other classes have similar HoTs. This will allow the Sorc to heal up with the shield

3) Turn the heal of Hardened Ward into a HoT. So instead of burst healing for 3-4k in PvP, have that heal for 3-4k over 3 seconds. That's 1k-1.3k HPS, which is good enough to help Sorc get out of execute range without compromising the nature of shielding

4) Make Blood Magic passive scale with max mag or stam instead of max HP. At 30k HP, the tooltip of Blood Magic is around 3k. At 40k HP, the tooltip of Blood Magic is around 4k. We could change it to scale with max mag or stam instead, and suddenly you will have a very strong offensive HoT. Stack 50-55k mag/stam, and you will see a 5-6k tooltip for Blood Magic, which will equate to around 2.5k-3k non crit heal whenever it procs, which is PLENTY when you combine with Ward and Surge.

You don't have to do all of them, but even just one is huge.

Zabagad

StaticWave wrote: »

3) Turn the heal of Hardened Ward into a HoT. So instead of burst healing for 3-4k in PvP, have that heal for 3-4k over 3 seconds. That's 1k-1.3k HPS, which is good enough to help Sorc get out of execute range without compromising the nature of shielding

My point was just to illustrate, that your point 2) Run a build with <30k HP and <25k resistances makes no sence to me and excludes builds which may are comparable healing and damagewise... (But I don't care about your challenge too much)

But back to my real point - ty for your answer and I like to take point 3.
My preanswer was "you and others will claim "Sorc still can outheal X DPS""
If ZOS would do exactly your point 3 (as I said multiple times - thats totaly fine for me) - but I don't see any way, why the "Sorc OP" discussion should stop then, as you still get almost the same situations: "only one button" and "heal vs. X dps".

So were you satisfied and stop complaining "Sorc OP" if ZOS would change ward exactly like in your point 3???

StaticWave

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

3) Turn the heal of Hardened Ward into a HoT. So instead of burst healing for 3-4k in PvP, have that heal for 3-4k over 3 seconds. That's 1k-1.3k HPS, which is good enough to help Sorc get out of execute range without compromising the nature of shielding

My point was just to illustrate, that your point 2) Run a build with <30k HP and <25k resistances makes no sence to me and excludes builds which may are comparable healing and damagewise... (But I don't care about your challenge too much)

But back to my real point - ty for your answer and I like to take point 3.
My preanswer was "you and others will claim "Sorc still can outheal X DPS""
If ZOS would do exactly your point 3 (as I said multiple times - thats totaly fine for me) - but I don't see any way, why the "Sorc OP" discussion should stop then, as you still get almost the same situations: "only one button" and "heal vs. X dps".

So were you satisfied and stop complaining "Sorc OP" if ZOS would change ward exactly like in your point 3???

Actually, turning Hardened Ward’s burst heal into a HoT would stop all “Sorc OP” discussions, and I will explain why. But first, I will provide some technical explanation for people who may not understand yet. You can ignore it if you already know.

There are 3 mehods to kill a player:

1) Burst - you chain multiple hard hitting attacks or multiple instances of damage within 1-2 GCDs to kill someone before they can use their burst heal
2) Pressure - you stack multiple instances of damage per second to overwhelm their healing per second
3) High APM - you chain multiple hard hitting attacks over several GCDs to create a "pressure" effect

Every class can kill using one of these methods, but some classes are better at one method than others. For example, NB, Sorc, Warden, and Necro are better at bursting down opponents, while DKs, Arcanist, and Templar are better at pressuring down opponents. Some classes like NB and Sorc can use their burst abilities off cooldown to achieve a "pressure" effect.

Generally, HoTs are better at mitigating pressure, and shields are better at mitigating burst. Why is that? HoTs essentially cancel multiple instances of damage you're taking, and preemptive shielding prevents your actual HP from taking a burst combo. A burst heal by itself doesn't really mitigate pressure or burst. It's mainly used to get you out of execute range, or to cancel incoming burst if you block cast it. That's why most classes combine HoTs with a burst heal to survive. They use HoTs to cancel the DoT effects, and burst heal with block cast to cancel incoming burst.

I've stated that shields are better at mitigating burst, but it's a bit more complicated than that. When you get shields to a high enough value, they are also good at mitigating pressure. A 10k shield can be good at mitigating burst, but not so much against pressure if you don't have complementing HoTs. However, a 14-15k shield can be good at mitigating both burst and pressure. Without a burst heal underneath, it's fine and balanced. You can still be killed if there's enough pressure to chip away at your shield. However, there's a problem when you add a burst heal underneath. Now suddenly you're extremely hard to kill because not only do they have to get through your 14-15k shield, but they also have to get through another 3-4k (5-6k crit) healing. There is essentially no weakness for the shield anymore. You can mitigate a lot of pressure, you can also mitigate a lot of burst, and you can also get out of execute range. There's practically zero counterplay if you are a decent magsorc who keeps a high uptime on shield to prevent getting 1-shotted.

By turning the burst heal into a HoT, you've reintroduced counterplay. You will still be hard to kill for pressure builds, but you are less likely to get out of execute range, and that's counterplay!

Jsmalls

@IncultaWolf
@StaticWave

I actually also played BGs a lot yesterday, 5-7 matches, was in Rallying Cry and SPC for most matches.

May have had a match where I didn't die but I play Very aggressively and had PLENTY of deaths.

Most notably a Proc Blade with tarnished and anthelmirs from stealth with Incap that would appear during a fight and hit me for 20k+. He probably got me 5 times that match.

Then id have a 2-3 man turn and focus me and put me down pretty often.

All in all the floor was brought up, but in No CP battlegrounds without Bastion... Ward does not feel completely out of place. 11.5k ward with roughly a 4k heal. Nothing too crazy there.

One thing that was consistent was I was the top damage dealer every match I played (all but one where a 40k health Arcanist did 2.5 million and went 9/1, I was that 1 ). Averaged 1.5 - 2 million for the longer matches.

Also what's with the healing numbers on most of your matches? You had 150k, 427k, 149k, 120k.
Using only ward and crit surge you should have no group healing at all.... So something is off about that, unless it's something I'm not thinking of, don't think group synergies would do that much.

Im also assuming this was Solo Que? I wouldn't put High MMR and Solo Que in the same sentence. You get a CRAZY variety in solo que, and assuming he picked out games he didn't die to post....

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

I know you're going to say something along the lines of "other classes can do the same" or "you won't have enough damage", but that's false. I still land 12k frags on squishies and 9k frags on properly built players. Sorc damage has not changed much other than the extra 10% mag, but it's gotten overly tanky with the Ward change, and that is mainly what I'm concerned about, especially when it also has Streak.

I totally agree that damage isn't an issue at all and so yeah you're concerned about the tankiness and I would argue that you've easily shown the issue in 1v1 so I'm with you there.

Where we start to diverge is when we talk open world meaning cyro and IC. I don't count bgs because while it's gvg unlike open world the scripted nature of the encounter allows for being too easily skewed with simple factors like 1 healer, the particular objective, stacked teams, etc.


This is vs say the more popular CP cyro where the encounter can be much more varied in how many and what you're dealing with.


Now I'm not going to say these clips don't already exist but what I have yet to see is open world sorc doing things other players are just unable to easily like getting a 1vx against decent players.


Everyone can be tanky and everyone can run around and not die easily. Some do it and also have more damage than you'd expect. Yes this still makes for a garbage experience sometimes but hey the game is the game.


I think over time we're just going to have to see if people accept the change or find it really annoying. I'm still waiting to see how the other changes like vitality and status effects builds do and don't affect the game and sorc as different people try different things.

Personally I really like the change but I'm open to adjustments if the community as a whole doesn't

Turtle_Bot

Calculating each class's effective health gain per second using only 1 HoT + a burst heal:

All classes have the same build with the following stats:

- ~60-65k health and 30k mag/stam (using vamp ultimate for this particular build as it is something that I am currently theorycrafting).
- All the same race (dark elf)
- 2.4k up to 3.6k recoveries (only arcanist gets over 3k with NB in second at 2.9k)
- All classes have an approx effective power of 9-9.5k except necro that sits at 6.2k and NB that sits at 9.8k)
- All classes have an approx 12-13k tooltip on arterial burst (except necro that has 9k)
- All classes have between 13 and 18k "delayed burst" (except for NB that has a 24k MR). Note: Although it is unrealistic for plars to reach their 15k Potl tooltip, it still technically tooltips within that 13-18k range of the other classes (at ~15k) and as such fits within the range across the classes for delayed burst with this build.
- All classes have approx 30k resistances
- All total "healing" values are taken to account for having 1 HoT tick and casting the "burst heal" to give a total healing per second value.
- Additional calcs were done to account for battle spirit effect on healing received (-55%) and then calculate an effective health gain that accounts for block casting the heals taking the average block mitigation of my given build which sat around 70% (give or take a couple of percent).
- The calcs do not take into account critically casting heals (which wards cannot do and as such would raise the effective health gain per second significantly for classes that have heals and not wards) as that would take significantly more time and effort than what I currently have available.

Forums are not letting me upload screenshots unfortunately...
However, here's the calcs behind the health gain per second for each class using 1 burst heal and 1 (the best) HoT) that is using the tooltips from my tanky brawler build that has the stats outlined above:

Necro:

Resistant flesh = 15848 healing tooltip
Vigor = 24k over 5 seconds = 4.8k/sec
Total healing per second tooltip using only 1 burst heal and 1 HoT = 20,648
With Battle Spirit active 20,648 x 0.45 = 9291 healing per second.
Accounting for block mitigation that is an effective health gain per second of 15,794

Plar:

HtD = 19797 healing tooltip
Bubble = 5454 healing per second (2727 per half second) for 12 seconds (vigor is 28104 or 5620 per second)
Total healing tooltip using 1 burst heal and 1 HoT (bubble) = 25,251
With Battle spirit active 25,251 x 0.45 = 11,362 healing per second
Accounting for block mitigation that is an effective health gain per second of 19,315

Sorc:

Hardened Ward = 13940 Shield + 5015 heal = 18955 tooltip per cast (this is health based shield so the builder does actually scale the shield value here).
Crit surge = 4026 x 0.2 (only 18.4% crit chance for this specific build rounded up to 20% for ease of calcs) = 805 healing per second on average.
Total "healing" tooltip using 1 burst heal and 1 HoT = 19760
With Battle spirit active 5k + 400 heal + 14k temporary health = 19,400 "healing" per second
With block mitigation that is an effective health gain per second of 9.4k + 14k = 23.4k, 14k of which is not part of the actual health bar and falls off after 6 seconds.

NB:

Offering = 18.5k healing tooltip
Dark Cloak (heal morph) = 4.4k up to 11k per second if standing still (vigor = 5.6k per second)
Total healing tooltip using 1 burst heal and 1 HoT = 22900 up to 29500 (or 24.6k if vigor instead of dark cloak)
With battle spirit active 22900 x 0.45 = 10305 up to 13275 (11,070 with vigor)
With block mitigation that is an effective health gain per second of 17,518 up to 22,567 (18,819 with vigor)

Arcanist:

Impervious = 19k ward + 3330 heal = 22330 tooltip per cast (this ignores the 6.5k damage this abilities also does)
Vigor = 25788 over 5 seconds = 5.15k healing per second tooltip
Total "healing" tooltip using 1 burst heal and 1 HoT = 27480
With Battle Spirit active 22330 + (5150 x 0.45) = 24647 healing per second
With block mitigation that is an effective health gain per second of 5.6k + 19k = 24.6k, 9.5k of which falls off after 1 second and the remaining 9.5k falls off after 5 seconds. This does not include the 6.5k damage impervious also deals.

DK:

Coag = 14.5k up to 21.75k healing tooltip
Vigor = 26k over 5 seconds = 5.2k per second
Total healing tooltip using 1 burst heal + 1 HoT = 19.7k up to 26.95k
With Battle Spirit active 19.7 x 0.45 = 8.8k up to 12.13k healing per second
With block mitigation that is an effective health gain per second of 14,960 up to 20,621.

Warden (Polar):

Polar = 29778 + 7381 = 37159 healing tooltip (this only accounts for the first tick of the polar HoT)
Vigor = 29184 over 5 seconds = 5836 healing per second
Total healing tooltip using 1 burst heal and 1 HoT = 42,995
With Battle Spirit active 42,995 x 0.45 = 19,348 healing per second
With block mitigation that is an effective health gain of 32,891.

Warden (Arctic):

Arctic = 15699 healing tooltip (this doesn't account for the DoT or stun)
Vigor = as above = 5836 healing per second
Total healing tooltip using 1 burst heal and 1 HoT = 21,535
With Battle Spirit active 21,535 x 0.45 = 9690 healing per second
With block mitigation that is an effective health gain per second of 16,474.

TL//DR:
The total effective health gain per second factoring in block casting of 1 burst heal and passively gaining 1 tick of the given HoT for each class is as follows:
Necro = 15,794 health gain per second
Plar = 19,315 health gain per second
Sorc = 23,400, only 9400 of which is actual health gain with 14k being temporary buffer
NB = 17518 up to 22,567 (or 18,819 with vigor instead) health gain per second
Arc = 24,600, only 5600 of which is actual health gain with 19k being temporary buffer
DK = 14,960 up to 20,621 health gain per second
Warden (Polar) = 32,891 health gain per second
Warden (Arctic) = 16,474 health gain per second

There are 3 outliers here:
Necro on the low end with under 16k
Arctic on the low end at just over 16k but this has a stun and a very nice DoT that wasn't factored in
Polar on the high end where you could remove vigor entirely and still have a 28,426 effective health gain per second. This is THE true 1 button heal that is out of line with everything else.

Once again, this is not like that warden build lacks in other areas with:
- a 13k (18k on the second hit) tooltip deep-fissure
- a 12k tooltip arterial burst
- a 4k/sec tooltip vamp ult
- free dps from ele sus + hemorrhaging statuses
- all the bonuses warden has to chilled and frost staff
- mobility + snare immunity + berserk from wings
- free cleanse + sustain from netch
- additional HoT + major prophecy/savagery from lotus
- Major defile + minor cowardice + a 20k delayed burst heal from corrupting pollen
- 52k slab shield that has a 6k damage tooltip that also stuns

Sorc is slightly above the other classes by about 10-15% on average with this build that is favouring sorcs shields over other classes heals, but this additional effective health gain is more than made up for by the other classes once we account for the additional HoTs or delayed heals that other classes have in their kits that would be slotted and used in place of bound aegis/inner light. Hots such as:
- sprit guardian or coil (necro)
- ritual, rune or vigor (plar)
- refreshing path, siphoning attacks or vigor (NB)
- reconstructed domain or runeguard of freedom (delayed burst heal) or sanctum of abyssal (Arcanist)
- Cinder storm, cauterize, shattering rocks, battle roar and potentially burning embers (DK)
- Corrupting pollen, lotus, trellis, tree ult, bond with nature (passive) (warden)
- Sorc has blood magic (passive) and technically heal morph of negate (200+ ultimate for a 2.2k heal that you have to sit inside of...)

All of sorcs other heal abilities require separate individual casts and don't have a delayed or over time heal to allow them to tick while casting other abilities, which means that sorc is not casting hardened ward when using those other heals (dark deal, pets, vibrant) while the other classes can cast their burst heals while their other HoTs/delayed heals are ticking or counting down.

Note: this was with a tank set (3 piece heavy armor + 2 lines of health) on the body, you could just as easily switch that tank set for rallying cry front bar and while losing ~6-7k health (45-50k without vamp ult, 55-60k health with vamp ult), you would gain an insane amount of additional raw damage which would buff up the health gain per second values of plar, NB, DK, Necro and Warden (Arctic) while running that damage set equates to a significant drop in effective health gain per second for sorcs and their hardened ward that puts hardened ward smack bang in the middle of the other classes effective health gain per second.

Giving these builds the powerful assault buff to simulate for rallying crys 300 weapon/spell damage we get the following effective health gain per second for classes whos heals scale with raw damage:
- Warden (Arctic) = 17,341
- Necro = 16,721
- DK = 15,853 up to 21,683
- NB = 17,788 up to 22,447 with dark cloak (19,084 with vigor)
- Plar = 20,180 with bubble (20,533 with vigor)
- Sorc = 20,571 only 8186 of which is actual health gain with 12.3k being a temporary buffer that is unaffected by block mitigation and cannot crit
- Warden (Polar) = 30,450 (25,881 if we exclude vigor and only run Polar)
For fun, I decided to calculate clanfear as sorcs burst heal (since its a health based heal):
Clanfear = 25,910 healing tooltip
Vigor = 26,358 over 5 seconds = 5,271
Total healing tooltip using 1 burst heal and 1 HoT = 31,181
With Battle Spirit active 31,181 x 0.45 = 14,031 healing per second
With block mitigation that is an effective health gain per second of 23,853.
This puts clanfear on par hardened ward as effective health gain but instead of being mostly temporary health that falls away even if the incoming damage stops, it is all actual health gain that is buffed by block mitigation (too bad the pets are horrible to use in PvP).

Once again, the only outlier here is polar wardens with their near 30k effective health gain per second where all the other classes sit around 20k give or take a couple of thousand.

TL//DR for the TL//DR:
In terms of peak effective health gain per second from block casting 1 HoT + 1 Burst heal, the classes rank as follows
1. Warden (Polar, including vigor) at 32,891 effective health gain per second
2. Warden (Polar, no other HoT) at 28,426 effective health gain per second
3. Arcanist at 24,600 effective health gain per second
4. Sorc at 23,400 effective health gain per second
5. NB (with dark cloak) at 22,567 effective health gain per second
6. DK at 20,621 effective health gain per second
7. Plar at 19,315 effective health gain per second
8. NB (with vigor) at 18,819 effective health gain per second
9. Warden (Arctic) at 16,474 effective health gain per second
10. Necro at 15,794 effective health gain per second

All this isn't to say that Hardened ward wasn't made into a really strong ability that could use some SMALL adjustments when looking specifically at the 60k+ max mag builds or the 60k+ health builds and how well max stats can be stacked, but when looking at the kits of all the classes as a whole, it is very easy to build any class to be insanely tanky, with huge health pools, similar effective health gain per second to hardened ward with just as few button presses, good damage, very high sustain and good mobility.

The only exceptions to this are Plar (lacking damage) which would be right up there too if it was significantly easier to actually reach that max tooltip on PotL and Necro which everyone agrees needs a lot of help for everything.

Interesting note from the calcs: The only extreme outlier of all of the classes currently is specifically Polar Wardens that have 40% or more higher health gain per second over every single other class, including hardened ward sorcerers (and over double of necro) and is still well and truly above all the other classes even if we remove vigor from the calculations and had polar winds as the ONLY healing ability being used, and that build still has good damage, decent mobility and significantly more group utility as well, oh and just for fun, Polar winds can also heal others too, something that hardened ward cannot do and wardens naturally counter sorcs thanks to crystaline slab, netch and wings.
That healing from polar is absolutely absurd, and a big part of the reason why despite agreeing that ward needs some small adjustments to tone down its peaks, it's not that big of an issue considering everything else currently in the game as its not that far out of line as many are claiming.

As for that 10s clip, guarantee that a polar warden would've just as easily of stood in that same area for over twice as long as that clip lasted, shrugging off that damage like it was troll tanks flinging their wet noodles at it.
I have seen that polar build in action so many times now and suffice to say that if a single polar warden can force a ball group to give up trying to kill a small group of solo players and a duo/trio of those wardens are literally unkillable outside of specifically a ball faction stack, that is more than enough proof to me that there are much more pressing issues regarding the healing/tank meta we are currently in than what hardened ward is right now (again, this is not that ward doesn't need some small adjustments, but it's nowhere near as out of line as people are claiming and definitely nowhere near the most obnoxious tank/healing issue in the game currently).

Bashev

@Turtle_Bot
What a strange way to calculate with 60-65k health for a PvP builds.

But if you do so then why didn't you included Summon Unstable Clannfear?

Zabagad

StaticWave wrote: »

Actually, turning Hardened Ward’s burst heal into a HoT would stop all “Sorc OP” discussions, and I will explain why.

Ty for your view.
Let's hope ZOS is doing that as soon as possible

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

@IncultaWolf
@StaticWave

I actually also played BGs a lot yesterday, 5-7 matches, was in Rallying Cry and SPC for most matches.

May have had a match where I didn't die but I play Very aggressively and had PLENTY of deaths.

Most notably a Proc Blade with tarnished and anthelmirs from stealth with Incap that would appear during a fight and hit me for 20k+. He probably got me 5 times that match.

Then id have a 2-3 man turn and focus me and put me down pretty often.

All in all the floor was brought up, but in No CP battlegrounds without Bastion... Ward does not feel completely out of place. 11.5k ward with roughly a 4k heal. Nothing too crazy there.

One thing that was consistent was I was the top damage dealer every match I played (all but one where a 40k health Arcanist did 2.5 million and went 9/1, I was that 1 ). Averaged 1.5 - 2 million for the longer matches.

Also what's with the healing numbers on most of your matches? You had 150k, 427k, 149k, 120k.
Using only ward and crit surge you should have no group healing at all.... So something is off about that, unless it's something I'm not thinking of, don't think group synergies would do that much.

Im also assuming this was Solo Que? I wouldn't put High MMR and Solo Que in the same sentence. You get a CRAZY variety in solo que, and assuming he picked out games he didn't die to post....

He was using Almalexia for group utility. That’s why he had those group heal numbers.