Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

StaticWave

Theignson wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Idinuse



58.8k mag, 31.8k hp, 22.1k stam, 1.9k mag recov and 1k stam recov before continuous, 3.7k spell dmg before continuous (can be improved if using spell dmg glyphs), 8.6k base pen, 24k phys resist, 27k spell resist, 2.9k crit resist, 15.4k ward, 9.8k burst heal.

Like I said, magsorc is busted. These stats can let you tank up to 9k DPS and deal 4-5k DPS. Don't believe me? Try it out yourself.

Static,
Can you explain Sorc damage calculation to me? I have seen a lot of Sorc builds with what looks like mediocre spell damage. How does the Magicka compensate? Is it better than SD, or the same? What's the formulae?
Bottom line, can a Sorc with 3.5k SD do big damage if they have that 55k magicka...how does it work (the formulaes have changed since I started in 2014 but I can't keep track of it)

Yea I can.

So basically the formula is 1 spell damage = ~10.5 magicka if we account for the different tooltip scaling (the reason is because stacking magicka is also a form of sustain, so it needs to have a slightly lower modifier than spell damage). I also took this formula from Alcast’s website, and he’s a well known PvEr in the ESO community.

100 spell damage = 1050 magicka, and 1000 spell damage = 10500 magicka.

In that screenshot, I have approximately 58.8k magicka and 3.7k spell damage. A typical spell damage build has around 6.5k spell damage and 25k magicka. Using the conversion above, we can convert the magicka into spell damage as seen below:

Difference in magicka amount between spell dmg vs magicka build:

58.8k - 25k = 33.8k

When converted, we should have a little over 3.2k spell damage

Adding the converted spell damage to our current spell damage, we have:

3.7k + 3.2k = 6.9k spell damage

So basically, a 58.8k mag and 3.7k spell damage has the equivalent tooltip damage of a 25k mag and 6.9k spell damage build, with tooltip scaling already accounted for between magicka and spell damage. The deciding factor is Hardened Ward because it scales off max mag.

That’s why when people say “but spell damage is low”, I just laugh because with a 58.8k mag, I am doing just as much damage as a high spell damage build. I am also MUCH tankier because the buffed Hardened Ward allows me to face tank 9k DPS. The high mag pool also means my sustain is better as well. Even if I run 3 regen glyphs, I am still doing as much damage as a high spell damage build lol. If I want maximum damage, I can use all spell damage glyphs and will have an effective spell damage of over 7k.

Major_Toughness

Theignson wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Idinuse



58.8k mag, 31.8k hp, 22.1k stam, 1.9k mag recov and 1k stam recov before continuous, 3.7k spell dmg before continuous (can be improved if using spell dmg glyphs), 8.6k base pen, 24k phys resist, 27k spell resist, 2.9k crit resist, 15.4k ward, 9.8k burst heal.

Like I said, magsorc is busted. These stats can let you tank up to 9k DPS and deal 4-5k DPS. Don't believe me? Try it out yourself.

Static,
Can you explain Sorc damage calculation to me? I have seen a lot of Sorc builds with what looks like mediocre spell damage. How does the Magicka compensate? Is it better than SD, or the same? What's the formulae?
Bottom line, can a Sorc with 3.5k SD do big damage if they have that 55k magicka...how does it work (the formulaes have changed since I started in 2014 but I can't keep track of it)

If I remember correctly 10.5 Magicka equates to 1 spell damage.

So 10.5k Magicka equates to 1000 spell damage. Using Statics example of 55k Magicka, rather extreme, and your average build on other classes around 25k, it's safe to say the Sorc build gains almost an equivalent 2500-3000 spell damage from it's Magicka compared to other classes. Which puts it by no means at a high value but good.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Giljabrar wrote: »

70 days played on sorc, one tricked it for years. I have a lot of PvP hours, Dueling, Cyro, Battlegrounds, you name it.

I came back because of the sorcerer buffs, but just as quickly, I'm probably leaving.

Sorc has been in a poor state for a while, in terms of healing/sustain. As others have pointed out, its glaring weakness was getting out of execute range with the lack of a burst heal (outside of pet, but gross, pet).

I have no idea, how anybody can justify giving Sorc a burst heal on their best defensive GCD they have access to.

We do need access to a burst heal besides the pet! But to put it on top of our ward, was moronic. I have no good solution to this, we're already starved for skill slots as it is.

I enjoyed Sorc in cyro for a day or so, but stalemating with all of the other sorcs around the map is just getting dull and boring.

This ward should never have went to live in its current state. I fought on the forums to get Arcanist shield nerfed, it would be hypocritical not to voice my concerns with the best defensive skill, my favorite class has ever gotten.

ZoS doesn't listen to player feedback anymore in PTS cycles, and this consistently destroys my enjoyment of this game.

See you all again in a year for some other crazy update that interests me for about a week.

The funny part about this is that this is the kind of stuff I'm talking about when I say give it time. People will jump on just to test it out and some will stay but some like you will just get bored and play other classes or leave. Though yeah I'm guessing this gets nerfed next patch into some people can live with

Would be funny though if this actually lead to an all time population low in pvp. Highly doubt it will though.

Lol, the actual funny part is people were warned by PTS testers, but refused to accept it.

Why would anybody give time for something already warned to be broken to make it to live server lol. All you’re describing is just the consequence of an overperforming buff, which could have been prevented lol

Ok so you make an interesting point here. I think it's worth understanding. It's not really that I never believed this was a strong change that might over perform in something like 1v1. It's just that I knew ZOS was going.to do what they have been more and more and just release it as they care to.

So with that in mind my radar is only going to pickup something game breaking which this isn't when you look at pvp as a whole.

This isn't a good change at all if we're really talking about a well balanced game but this isn't that.

With ZOS you ask for reasonable buffs, lay out several good options and they will still just do what they've been passing around in a word doc for the past few months.

I'm not saying people shouldn't complain but that to me at this point it should be apparent that this was always going to go through, we'll just have to play through it, and lastly the only thing you can count on from ZOS is that this by far won't be the last time they do this to their player base in the slightest.

So stock up on shock, dismay, outrage, and I told you so because you're going to need em when dealing with this company

Giljabrar

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Just give it a ramping cost

I voted no to that on NB so I'm going to say the same here.

I wouldn't mind a hot but I don't like how lazy healing ward 2.0 on steroids sounds. Eh I wish this had just been a more interesting buff

I would have liked to try out something that someone mentioned around the start of the PTS cycle:

Let the ward and heal equal a total value and have the ward/heal ratio adjust depending on how high or low your current health is.

e.g:
- At or above 90% its just a ward only
- At 50% its a 50/50 split
- At or below 10% its a heal only

If nothing else it would at least have been an interesting mechanic for no-pet sorcs self "burst heal"

Honestly, this feels like a good compromise

Aces-High-82

StaticWave wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Idinuse



58.8k mag, 31.8k hp, 22.1k stam, 1.9k mag recov and 1k stam recov before continuous, 3.7k spell dmg before continuous (can be improved if using spell dmg glyphs), 8.6k base pen, 24k phys resist, 27k spell resist, 2.9k crit resist, 15.4k ward, 9.8k burst heal.

Like I said, magsorc is busted. These stats can let you tank up to 9k DPS and deal 4-5k DPS. Don't believe me? Try it out yourself.

Static,
Can you explain Sorc damage calculation to me? I have seen a lot of Sorc builds with what looks like mediocre spell damage. How does the Magicka compensate? Is it better than SD, or the same? What's the formulae?
Bottom line, can a Sorc with 3.5k SD do big damage if they have that 55k magicka...how does it work (the formulaes have changed since I started in 2014 but I can't keep track of it)

Yea I can.

So basically the formula is 1 spell damage = ~10.5 magicka if we account for the different tooltip scaling (the reason is because stacking magicka is also a form of sustain, so it needs to have a slightly lower modifier than spell damage). I also took this formula from Alcast’s website, and he’s a well known PvEr in the ESO community.

100 spell damage = 1050 magicka, and 1000 spell damage = 10500 magicka.

In that screenshot, I have approximately 58.8k magicka and 3.7k spell damage. A typical spell damage build has around 6.5k spell damage and 25k magicka. Using the conversion above, we can convert the magicka into spell damage as seen below:

Difference in magicka amount between spell dmg vs magicka build:

58.8k - 25k = 33.8k

When converted, we should have a little over 3.2k spell damage

Adding the converted spell damage to our current spell damage, we have:

3.7k + 3.2k = 6.9k spell damage

So basically, a 58.8k mag and 3.7k spell damage has the equivalent tooltip damage of a 25k mag and 6.9k spell damage build, with tooltip scaling already accounted for between magicka and spell damage. The deciding factor is Hardened Ward because it scales off max mag.

That’s why when people say “but spell damage is low”, I just laugh because with a 58.8k mag, I am doing just as much damage as a high spell damage build. I am also MUCH tankier because the buffed Hardened Ward allows me to face tank 9k DPS. The high mag pool also means my sustain is better as well. Even if I run 3 regen glyphs, I am still doing as much damage as a high spell damage build lol. If I want maximum damage, I can use all spell damage glyphs and will have an effective spell damage of over 7k.

Dont skills have a different coefficient for resource and spell damage?

Araneae6537

So my old magicka-stacking Crafty Alfiq + Spinners PvP build might be viable this Update? Maybe I can work toward finally unlocking that Legate black dye…

StaticWave

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Idinuse



58.8k mag, 31.8k hp, 22.1k stam, 1.9k mag recov and 1k stam recov before continuous, 3.7k spell dmg before continuous (can be improved if using spell dmg glyphs), 8.6k base pen, 24k phys resist, 27k spell resist, 2.9k crit resist, 15.4k ward, 9.8k burst heal.

Like I said, magsorc is busted. These stats can let you tank up to 9k DPS and deal 4-5k DPS. Don't believe me? Try it out yourself.

Static,
Can you explain Sorc damage calculation to me? I have seen a lot of Sorc builds with what looks like mediocre spell damage. How does the Magicka compensate? Is it better than SD, or the same? What's the formulae?
Bottom line, can a Sorc with 3.5k SD do big damage if they have that 55k magicka...how does it work (the formulaes have changed since I started in 2014 but I can't keep track of it)

Yea I can.

So basically the formula is 1 spell damage = ~10.5 magicka if we account for the different tooltip scaling (the reason is because stacking magicka is also a form of sustain, so it needs to have a slightly lower modifier than spell damage). I also took this formula from Alcast’s website, and he’s a well known PvEr in the ESO community.

100 spell damage = 1050 magicka, and 1000 spell damage = 10500 magicka.

In that screenshot, I have approximately 58.8k magicka and 3.7k spell damage. A typical spell damage build has around 6.5k spell damage and 25k magicka. Using the conversion above, we can convert the magicka into spell damage as seen below:

Difference in magicka amount between spell dmg vs magicka build:

58.8k - 25k = 33.8k

When converted, we should have a little over 3.2k spell damage

Adding the converted spell damage to our current spell damage, we have:

3.7k + 3.2k = 6.9k spell damage

So basically, a 58.8k mag and 3.7k spell damage has the equivalent tooltip damage of a 25k mag and 6.9k spell damage build, with tooltip scaling already accounted for between magicka and spell damage. The deciding factor is Hardened Ward because it scales off max mag.

That’s why when people say “but spell damage is low”, I just laugh because with a 58.8k mag, I am doing just as much damage as a high spell damage build. I am also MUCH tankier because the buffed Hardened Ward allows me to face tank 9k DPS. The high mag pool also means my sustain is better as well. Even if I run 3 regen glyphs, I am still doing as much damage as a high spell damage build lol. If I want maximum damage, I can use all spell damage glyphs and will have an effective spell damage of over 7k.

Dont skills have a different coefficient for resource and spell damage?

Yes, that's already included in the conversion. Easiest way to test is on Editor. Idk why I can't post any pictures here, but this is what I got for tooltip of Arterial Burst:

At 1200 spell damage and 12000 magicka, Arterial Burst has a tooltip of 2623. At 1000 spell damage and 14109 magicka, Arterial burst has a tooltip of 2624.

1200 - 1000 = 200 spell damage difference
14109 - 12000 = 2109 magicka difference

Using the conversion of 1 spell damage = 10.5 magicka, we have 200 spell damage = 2100 magicka. The test above is consistent with the conversion.

StaticWave

So I hope people understand that stacking max magicka on Sorc now is better than stacking spell damage. A 60k max magicka build with 3.5-3.7k spell damage will do just as much damage as a 25k max magicka and 7k spell damage build, but with a lot more tankiness and sustain.

Jsmalls

What isn't discussed here is the multipliers available.

I've been stacking Magicka on a Sorc for literally 6 years, it's ALWAYS been my playstyle because I'm really good with my ward (this was starting back when they changed Harness Magicka to absorb all damage types instead of just magic based attacks and I dropped Resto for S&B to get that extra magicka armor enchant for back bar wards).

Two things recently changed for this to currently be as effective as it is in the most recent patches. Bound Aegis works on both bars and the 10% increase in magicka and stamina. That was a very strong offensive buff for Sorcs and this playstyle. That being said...

Percent multipliers available:

Magicka, 1096 per item bonus

Inner light 7% (one bar)
Bound Aegis 8%
Undaunted 6%
New Passive 10%
Total: 31%

Spell damage, 129 per item bonus

Major Sorcery 20%
Sorc ability Passives ~6-8%
Minor Sorcery 10% (I recognize this isn't easy)
Continuous passive 10%
Medium armor 2-4%
Total: High side 50% Low Side 38%

Looking at it straight up, spell damage is the CLEAR winner for pure damage. Each item bonus offers at Max: 1435 Magicka or 194 spell damage
Which works out to each item bonus line being 40% stronger when it is spell damage.

This can be done on jewellery as well where your options are an additional 104 spell damage or 840 magicka (30% stronger when going infused jewelry with spell damage).

Where magicka starts catching up is Armor enchants and attribute points.

Attributes:
6400 Magicka

Armor:
4000 Magicka (if all magicka but Tri effect is more popular which would lower this to about 2500)

This works out to 10400 Stats that CAN'T be spell damage. Which the 31% multiplier will add 3200 or 305 "spell damage" but 16% of the bonuses would be on ANY Sorc build so really this is ~150 over spell damage setups.

There are 12 line set bonus (and even though I know they don't like EXACTLY up line for line but for a rough balance perspective)

Spell damage
12 x 129 = 1548
Mundus = 238
Jewelry = 104 x 3 = 312
Total: 2098 spell damage
Buffed: 3147 spell damage

Magicka
12 x 1096 = 13152
Mundus = 2023
Jewelry: 840 x 3 = 2520
Total: 17695 (1685 spell damage)
Buffed: 23180 (2208 spell damage)

So spell damage is about 45% more effective giving about 940 more spell damage over the potential magicka bonuses.

Then you'd subtract the 150 that you are getting from attributes and enchants.

So you'd see about 790 more spell damage by going the spell damage route. Versus magicka route.

So stat for stat stacking spell damage versus magicka will ALWAYS give you more damage.

But stacking magicka gives more versatility.

Bushido2513

I feel like two people just said very different things here lol. Can one of you please agree with the other so that I don't have to do my own math 😂

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

What isn't discussed here is the multipliers available.

I've been stacking Magicka on a Sorc for literally 6 years, it's ALWAYS been my playstyle because I'm really good with my ward (this was starting back when they changed Harness Magicka to absorb all damage types instead of just magic based attacks and I dropped Resto for S&B to get that extra magicka armor enchant for back bar wards).

Two things recently changed for this to currently be as effective as it is in the most recent patches. Bound Aegis works on both bars and the 10% increase in magicka and stamina. That was a very strong offensive buff for Sorcs and this playstyle. That being said...

Percent multipliers available:

Magicka, 1096 per item bonus

Inner light 7% (one bar)
Bound Aegis 8%
Undaunted 6%
New Passive 10%
Total: 31%

Spell damage, 129 per item bonus

Major Sorcery 20%
Sorc ability Passives ~6-8%
Minor Sorcery 10% (I recognize this isn't easy)
Continuous passive 10%
Medium armor 2-4%
Total: High side 50% Low Side 38%

Looking at it straight up, spell damage is the CLEAR winner for pure damage. Each item bonus offers at Max: 1435 Magicka or 194 spell damage
Which works out to each item bonus line being 40% stronger when it is spell damage.

This can be done on jewellery as well where your options are an additional 104 spell damage or 840 magicka (30% stronger when going infused jewelry with spell damage).

Where magicka starts catching up is Armor enchants and attribute points.

Attributes:
6400 Magicka

Armor:
4000 Magicka (if all magicka but Tri effect is more popular which would lower this to about 2500)

This works out to 10400 Stats that CAN'T be spell damage. Which the 31% multiplier will add 3200 or 305 "spell damage" but 16% of the bonuses would be on ANY Sorc build so really this is ~150 over spell damage setups.

There are 12 line set bonus (and even though I know they don't like EXACTLY up line for line but for a rough balance perspective)

Spell damage
12 x 129 = 1548
Mundus = 238
Jewelry = 104 x 3 = 312
Total: 2098 spell damage
Buffed: 3147 spell damage

Magicka
12 x 1096 = 13152
Mundus = 2023
Jewelry: 840 x 3 = 2520
Total: 17695 (1685 spell damage)
Buffed: 23180 (2208 spell damage)

So spell damage is about 45% more effective giving about 940 more spell damage over the potential magicka bonuses.

Then you'd subtract the 150 that you are getting from attributes and enchants.

So you'd see about 790 more spell damage by going the spell damage route. Versus magicka route.

So stat for stat stacking spell damage versus magicka will ALWAYS give you more damage.

But stacking magicka gives more versatility.

I think you can just get on the editor, put a max spell damage build with usable sustain and defense, and compare it to a max mag build with usable sustain and defense, and then look at the tooltip difference and see which is better lol.

There is a distinct advantage of max mag stacking that you simply can’t just look at from 1 perspective. Yes, pure damage is good, but there are multiple variables on mag sorc that may not make a pure spell damage build as strong.

The best example I can think of is magsorc vs magden/dk/plar. Magden is stacking pure spell damage, but it’s never going to have the same tankiness as a magsorc simply because Hardened Ward is currently the best single target defensive ability in the game. Tanking 9k HPS in a fulll dmg build is a feat only magsorc can pull off right now, and that’s OUR advantage.

Another example is a max mag sorc with 55k mag vs a spell damage sorc at 40k mag. The spell damage sorc may have slightly more tooltip damage, but it’s never going to be as tanky. In a prolonged fight, the sorc with the bigger shield will win.

This patch, max mag build is going to be better for magsorc. I’m regularly taking 12k frags and 9-10k curses from a max mag build right now, and they are really hard to kill unless I 1 shot them.

Jsmalls

Nah I totally agree stacking magicka has much more versatility and feels better to play for this class.

The point I don't agree with is saying stacking Magicka is a full damage build. Because then what is a stacked spell damage build, a more full damage build? Or a build stacking crit chance, damage, and penetration. You get my point.

I'm just saying you are sacrificing damage by stacking magicka, statistically that can't be denied, its the way the game works. Stats are the worst source of damage bonuses.

You are also gimping your active abilities down to 8 instead of 10 (whether this is good or bad is debatable less things to keep up which is easier but also might mean less DoTs/HoTs applied).

And I disagree that the spell damage Sorc with 40k would only have slightly higher tooltips, they would probably be 10-20% higher (rough estimate).

And in group play with dedicated healers you don't want Tanky Sorcs that are wasting GCD keeping themselves up, you want a minimum health threshold with maximum damage threshold. And you don't get that by stacking magicka.

But as far as your statement about Hardened ward being the single best defense ability in the game now, I totally agree with you (when stacking magicka). Because no other ability offers a regular 20k+ "health" per cast. And I don't disagree that it needs to be adjusted at these extremes. Just hope it isn't "gutted".

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

Nah I totally agree stacking magicka has much more versatility and feels better to play for this class.

The point I don't agree with is saying stacking Magicka is a full damage build. Because then what is a stacked spell damage build, a more full damage build? Or a build stacking crit chance, damage, and penetration. You get my point.

I'm just saying you are sacrificing damage by stacking magicka, statistically that can't be denied, its the way the game works. Stats are the worst source of damage bonuses.

You are also gimping your active abilities down to 8 instead of 10 (whether this is good or bad is debatable less things to keep up which is easier but also might mean less DoTs/HoTs applied).

And I disagree that the spell damage Sorc with 40k would only have slightly higher tooltips, they would probably be 10-20% higher (rough estimate).

And in group play with dedicated healers you don't want Tanky Sorcs that are wasting GCD keeping themselves up, you want a minimum health threshold with maximum damage threshold. And you don't get that by stacking magicka.

1) 10-20% extra tooltip damage with spell dmg is an exaggeration, and I can literally verify this for you on the editor. Also, stats aren’t worse than spell damage because they scale worse (which is not even that bad because 100 spell damage = 1050 mag). They are worse because there aren’t many sources of max stat boosting modifiers.

However, you can get up to 31% max mag modifier, which is huge. It’s the equalizer for mag builds on Sorc.

2) A full damage build, by definition, is a build without defensive sets. Both max mag and max spell damage fall within this category. Whether one provides higher damage or not is irrelevant.

An easy counter argument for you would be Shattered Fete vs Order’s Wrath. Both provide only damage bonuses, but by your definition, Shattered Fete is a full damage set, and Order Wrath is not? Wrong. Both are full damage sets, and they have their distinct advantage (Shattered Fete is better vs high armor targets, and Wrath is better vs squishy targets)

3) Remember this:

The less active abilities > the less GCD you have to manage > the more you can output DPS.

Slotting Inner Light and Bound Aegis to provide 13% max mag is huge because they buff your damage AND defense. And here’s the key part: Hardened Ward’s buff allows for you to spam it as your only survivability, and I’ve demonstrated that you can tank 9k DPS with it.

It’s the fact that you don’t have to spend 3 GCDs by casting Vigor, old Ward, then Dark Conversion because 1 cast of buffed Ward gives equal survivability to 3 separate skills is huge. Those 2 GCDs can be used to go offensive.

Let’s also not forget other passives they give, like Major Savagery, Minor Protection, and Minor Resolve at all times, and 40% block mitigation and stealth reveal when you use the active part

4) In GvG, you go max HP sorc with 41-43k HP and stack spell damage with a couple HoTs. It’s just as strong.

This is all possible because of the burst heal, which was my main concern

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

1) It's worse because each line of stat is artificially lower than each line of spell damage before multipliers (129 > 104) and worse after (194 > 137 after conversion seen in other post). This is also true for the 5 piece bonuses. Crafty alfiq 2500~ x .31 = ~3300. New Moon 400 x .38 = 552 (552 > 314). War maiden 600 x .38 = 828

As far as tooltip in one versus the other....

Having trouble posting screenshots but....

For War Maiden, Imperial Wrath, and Rallying cry and spell damage monster sitting at a Haunting curse Tooltip of 20307.

For Crafty alfiq, ancient grace, 2x trainee, swarm mother and domihaus the Haunting curse Tooltip is 18281.

This is a 11% damage difference. This is missing minor Sorcery for the spell damage setup which is a HUGE difference for these two setups (roughly 300-350 spell damage versus the magicka build). The magicka setup is at 31% increased magicka, the max possible. So 15% is likely very accurate.

2) Who is making these definitions? I wouldn't call crafty alfiq a damage set it's a hybrid damage, defense, and sustain. And really the ONLY class that benefits from it is Sorc due to Bound Aegis and 10% passive.

Shattered fate and Orders wrath are definitely damage sets. Although I would argue Orders wrath is also a strong healing set as well so has hybrid factors. But both of these sets FAR out perform Crafty alfiq when it comes to dealing damage. They simply can't be put in the same class of "damage sets". You know that you're just trying to have a bias towards your side of the argument. Crafty alfiq offers versatility not full damage plain and simple. I would categorize it with Rallying Cry a set that offers good damage and great defense.

3) Less damage skills (more so DoTs, mean less active pressure) so lower sustained DPS. I'm not arguing with you that Ward is strong now, we agree, the conversation is stacking Magicka is less effective than stacking other sources of damage. And the 13% magicka gives about 6-7k magicka, which isn't going to supplement two DoTs worth of DPS. Once again these passive abilities are chosen for their versatility (defense and offense) rather than strictly their damage buffs (no one is running without Major Prophecy, you'll get it from a potion before giving it up entirely).

4) We're in agreeance, once again because spell damage / crit is more effective for damage AND cross heals.

Running full magicka is not running full offensive sets. It's running a "balanced" build (too strong defensively because of the change).

Is it the best way to play a Sorc? Probably. But if you want to hit harder you wouldn't play that setup.

Turtle_Bot

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

1) It's worse because each line of stat is artificially lower than each line of spell damage before multipliers (129 > 104) and worse after (194 > 137 after conversion seen in other post). This is also true for the 5 piece bonuses. Crafty alfiq 2500~ x .31 = ~3300. New Moon 400 x .38 = 552 (552 > 314). War maiden 600 x .38 = 828

As far as tooltip in one versus the other....

Having trouble posting screenshots but....

For War Maiden, Imperial Wrath, and Rallying cry and spell damage monster sitting at a Haunting curse Tooltip of 20307.

For Crafty alfiq, ancient grace, 2x trainee, swarm mother and domihaus the Haunting curse Tooltip is 18281.

This is a 11% damage difference. This is missing minor Sorcery for the spell damage setup which is a HUGE difference for these two setups (roughly 300-350 spell damage versus the magicka build). The magicka setup is at 31% increased magicka, the max possible. So 15% is likely very accurate.

2) Who is making these definitions? I wouldn't call crafty alfiq a damage set it's a hybrid damage, defense, and sustain. And really the ONLY class that benefits from it is Sorc due to Bound Aegis and 10% passive.

Shattered fate and Orders wrath are definitely damage sets. Although I would argue Orders wrath is also a strong healing set as well so has hybrid factors. But both of these sets FAR out perform Crafty alfiq when it comes to dealing damage. They simply can't be put in the same class of "damage sets". You know that you're just trying to have a bias towards your side of the argument. Crafty alfiq offers versatility not full damage plain and simple. I would categorize it with Rallying Cry a set that offers good damage and great defense.

3) Less damage skills (more so DoTs, mean less active pressure) so lower sustained DPS. I'm not arguing with you that Ward is strong now, we agree, the conversation is stacking Magicka is less effective than stacking other sources of damage. And the 13% magicka gives about 6-7k magicka, which isn't going to supplement two DoTs worth of DPS. Once again these passive abilities are chosen for their versatility (defense and offense) rather than strictly their damage buffs (no one is running without Major Prophecy, you'll get it from a potion before giving it up entirely).

4) We're in agreeance, once again because spell damage / crit is more effective for damage AND cross heals.

Running full magicka is not running full offensive sets. It's running a "balanced" build (too strong defensively because of the change).

Is it the best way to play a Sorc? Probably. But if you want to hit harder you wouldn't play that setup.

Was going to post my comparison as well, but you beat me to it.
I'll spoiler it I guess for anyone interested:

10% damage difference is 100% feasible between stacking raw damage and max mag. It's just purely down to how many modifiers there are for raw damage compared to mag stacking. It's not to say that stacking mag doesn't have damage, but stacking damage will always give more damage/healing than stacking max mag can give, even for sorc that has the most max mag modifiers in the game.

For some reason, its not letting me upload screenshots, but I did a quick build editor comparison:

Raw damage build with the following sets:

NMA (front), Wretched (back), SSC + zoals (this was very similar to the build I ran back in U33).
Orzorgas bear haunch food, 3 infused damage glyphs, 1 blue defensive CP, race is dark elf
3k mag recovery, 2.6k stam recovery, 22k max mag, 8.4k spell damage, 8.6k base pen, 24/26k res back bar, 22% crit chance, 68% crit damage.
2/4/1 L/M/H armor

The the buffed frags (non-proc) tooltip for this build is 16.8k, which roughly lines up with the frags damage I was getting back in U33 where the frags proc would hit mender guards for ~23k and hit for 38k if it crit.

Tried this with Rallying cry in place of wretched on the back bar, frags (non-proc) tooltip is just under 17.4k

Max mag build with the following sets:

Chudan, alfiq, ancient grace, DDF, all damage outside of chudan.
Sugar skulls food, 3 arcane damage jewelry, 1 blue defensive CP, race is dark elf
1.5k mag recovery, 800 stam recovery, 60k max mag 5.2k spell damage, 5.4k base pen, 24/27 back bar res, 34% crit chance, 62% crit damage
5/1/1 L/M/H armor

The buffed frags proc is 16.4k

The raw damage tooltip with full damage build (i.e. rallying on back bar) is 6% higher. So yes, technically if we only look at the builds themselves and no external factors, it is a slight exaggeration (4%), but it is 100% possible to get that 10-20% difference with 2 minor additions outlined in the following paragraph.

If we look at external buffs to raw damage such as minor sorcery/brutality (plar/DK) and minor courage, adding those 2 named minor buffs to the damage build puts frags up to a 19k tooltip or nearly 16% more damage than the max mag stacking build. Giving the damage build sugar skulls over bear haunch puts the tooltip to just under 20k fully buffed.

Note: I have not included any other unique buffs that there are for raw damage such as PA, spaulder, scorion's feast, etc or max mag such as warhorn as those buffs would only really come from highly coordinated and organized groups where as minor courage/brutality are very possible to get randomly, or in unorganized groups.

Yes, sorc can get good damage by stacking max mag thanks to Bound Aegis and Expert Summoner, but raw damage just has so many more modifiers for it that it will always have a higher ceiling than stacking for max mag has, even for sorcs that have the most ways to stack max mag in the game.

Looking at the defensive aspects to these builds:

Blessings of restoration with that level of spell damage is a 21k large AoE heal, vigor is 41k over 5 seconds, radiating is 27.5k over 10 seconds and Live giver (resto ulti) is 23k (+ casts of radiating + blessings + healing ward on cast). This 1000% exceeds what even hardened ward can achieve with over 64k max mag (that I could see from my testing on the PTS) and this is with post U34 resto staff nerfs.
The only defensive downside for the raw damage build is that it cannot temporarily increase its max health (above its 30k) while the max mag build can due to the ward size to temporarily sit at roughly 45k+ effective health to survive gank/bomb attempts, but the HoTs more than make up for this outside of specifically getting 1 shot by a NB gank/bomb.

TL//DR:
I had the same conclusion as you, even using old, more generic and weaker damage sets than what you used. Going full damage by stacking damage modifiers is just objectively more damage than stacking max magicka and it's purely down to the sheer number of ways to buff raw damage.
This isn't to say that stacking mag has zero damage, but it will never match the same damage that stacking damage can get.

I also decided to do some quick comparisons on healing since that is the way max damage builds defend themselves and the results are just as obnoxious as being able to stack max mag for wards. 19-21k tooltip blessings is no joke when most will agree that that particular heal is mediocre at best. 41k resolving vigor tooltip is just plain obnoxious too when stacking that much damage, that's an 8k passive burst heal every second for 5 seconds (no mending, vitality or powered trait). Mender got gutted for having barely half that healing. Lastly, Resto ult was a 23k per second heal that also cast rapid + blessings + healing ward.

I'll repeat what I said before:

Being able to stack things to such a degree that is the issue that needs to be fixed, be it max mag (wards), raw damage (NB/healing), max health (Warden), healing over time (ball groups), damage over time, procs, delayed bursts (sorc), ultimates, shields (ball groups), mitigation (blocking/percent) etc.
There's 3 ways to go about trying to get this issue fixed:
1. We could fixate on 1 particular ability at a time and get it nerfed into the ground for everyone (including those playing more reasonable/fair builds) instead of addressing the 1 build that is making the ability in question an issue.
2. We could just accept that ZOS will ignore us and do whatever ZOS does, and make every class over time into this mobile juggernaut that can't be killed and kills everything (disclaimer: necro not included, sorry necro).
3. We could instead focus on the real issue at hand (the ability to stack stats to levels that are out of control) and create better overall balance.

At the moment, majority are just repeating option 1 every single patch the same thing the majority have been doing for the past decade now, completely ruining peoples off meta builds that were not overtuned or imbalanced in any way and we have a few that are at point 2 and just accept that this is the game now and that's it. And we wonder why balance is so dead in this game.

The only games I've seen things be allowed to stack as many times as they can be in ESO is in literal fan made custom games. There's a reason stacking things is always limited (and fixed as soon as it pops up) and why ZOS in the past tried to switch more things to be named buffs/debuffs.

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

completely ruining peoples off meta builds that were not overtuned or imbalanced in any way

This seems like strange logic to me. Okay so you can take a broken overpowered game element, pair it with useless garbage, and the end result is not overtuned or imbalanced. Old Sloads was fine alongside Mad Tinkerer, bring it back!

BetweenMidgets

Ward has such a short duration, I'm not surprised that there was a high heal rate in the logs. It's something sorcs need to keep up basically 100% of the time.

I think there are decent trade offs here, like building that heavy into magicka pools, and its short duration, that I personally feel its no more "broken" than some tools that DKs, NBs, and Arcs have access to.

StaticWave

@Jsmalls @Turtle_Bot

I’ll address both of your points below:

1) I agree with spell damage being higher, but I I’ve also stated that on Magsorc specifically, it is not a huge factor because the class has more stat modifiers than other classes.

2) I’ve also stated that max mag build is better on magsorc because of how strong Hardened Ward is right now.

3) I’ve also stated that pvp in this game is more than just stacking pure damage. There’s also sustain and bar space efficiency.

All these 3 points are true because you can literally just look at max HP melee sorc vs max mag melee Sorc. I’m using max HP Sorc right now with 41k HP, 23k stam, 22k mag, 6.5k weapon damage, and 111% crit damage. On my max mag build, I have 31k HP, 58.8k mag, 22k stam, 4.3k spell damage, and 90% crit dmg. Both specs use Chudan for monster set.

Damage is still lower on the max HP Sorc because I’m missing 13k potential stamina, and I also have to rotate Vigor + Shield. My mag pool is also much lower, meaning less shield casts. On the max mag Sorc, I only have to use Shield, so 1 GCD is freed up for offense. My mag pool is also higher, meaning more Streaks and Shield casts.

The only benefit to running a HP Sorc is having the ability to drop Chudan for Balorgh, and gaining more speed with Hurricane. That’s it. You can also run a burst heal and put 64 pts into stam, but it’s a lot squishier than a shielding Sorc.

So like I said, stacking max damage is good in some cases, like memeing in a duel, but it’s not as good as shield Sorc, and I’ve always argued about shield Sorc vs shieldless Sorc. I don’t care if you get 11% more max dmg. If you can’t survive to utilize it, then it’s wasted dmg. By that logic, then a full dmg gank NB is better than a brawler NB right? No, because the brawler NB can tank better while still doing good enough dmg to kill.

And for your point about pressure @Turtle_Bot. Magsorc 100% has pressure. Their burst isn’t like NB. It is layered burst, which will translate to pressure. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be doing 4k-4.5k DPS in a prolonged fight on every CMX report lol

Alchimiste1

We all know the new hardened ward is overturned, if you can't see that there is definitely some bias.

I actually proposed a similar solution than what was implemented on the pts forums. To buffing msorc I mean. I stated giving hardened ward a small heal could benefit it, but you had to be careful of the size. Which I still agree with. But more than that what hardened ward really needs is a cooldown.

In particular it should be something like if cast under say 35% health the shield is cast with a burst heal of X-amount (like on live). This effect can occur once every 10 seconds .
That bold part is important. It allowed magsorc to recover after taking a big burst if they play well but also makes it so they can't just spam it to escape execute range. In order to recover you'll still need to break distance/roll/block.

Another solution is to just give it a flat cooldown, but I honestly think having it activate only under 35% health which actually contribute more to their defense.
Alternatively, you could also turn it into a hot but I'm not too sure. ( not a big fan of this idea.)

THAT BEING SAID.
Skill and balance in this game has long gone out the window so at this point I just think who cares, let the magsorcs enjoy being OP for at least a patch and this coming from a nb main.

Aces-High-82

Yeah, lets put a cooldown on offering!?
Maybe ramping cost to shadowy too?!

AndreNoir

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'd understand more in seeing a thread than that said burst heals, tankiness, vamp, etc is overtuned but just targeting sorc for joining the op club seems less than news worthy to me.

Sorc and NB were already "op" for players who took the time to learn survival with mobility and hots rather than burst heals

Never been. Stam used Rally and Vigor and never had a problems with healing. Mag on other hand has been pinned to restro staff and all time before Offering's change was jast a gimmick. And even after all changes the most profit got stamina builds

Bushido2513

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

We all know the new hardened ward is overturned, if you can't see that there is definitely some bias.

I actually proposed a similar solution than what was implemented on the pts forums. To buffing msorc I mean. I stated giving hardened ward a small heal could benefit it, but you had to be careful of the size. Which I still agree with. But more than that what hardened ward really needs is a cooldown.

In particular it should be something like if cast under say 35% health the shield is cast with a burst heal of X-amount (like on live). This effect can occur once every 10 seconds .
That bold part is important. It allowed magsorc to recover after taking a big burst if they play well but also makes it so they can't just spam it to escape execute range. In order to recover you'll still need to break distance/roll/block.

Another solution is to just give it a flat cooldown, but I honestly think having it activate only under 35% health which actually contribute more to their defense.
Alternatively, you could also turn it into a hot but I'm not too sure. ( not a big fan of this idea.)

THAT BEING SAID.
Skill and balance in this game has long gone out the window so at this point I just think who cares, let the magsorcs enjoy being OP for at least a patch and this coming from a nb main.

Thanks for at least looking at both sides of the things. While I'm still holding my opinion on if it's overtuned in the bigger sense of the have and what's already out there I am also considering well maybe if the value was changed slightly or a cap was added that wouldn't be too terrible. I mean as long as it matches the current offerings to other classes I'd be ok. To be fair I'd easily trade the heal for one or two other changes but if this is what we're getting then yeah I can understand slight tweaks later

Major_Toughness

"Hardened Ward and max Magicka builds aren't good."
- Sorc logo profile pic


Hmm.

HiImRex

@StaticWave was going to log in today and play a couple BGs but thanks for dissuading me lol

For everyone else making useless arguments about max mag vs. full damage, this is a pvp forum no?

You can't go full damage build in pvp unless you're zerging with tons of support because you'll die instantly. Unless your can get 90% of the damage while becoming the tankiest build in the game atm

end of discussion.

StaticWave

HiImRex wrote: »

@StaticWave was going to log in today and play a couple BGs but thanks for dissuading me lol

For everyone else making useless arguments about max mag vs. full damage, this is a pvp forum no?

You can't go full damage build in pvp unless you're zerging with tons of support because you'll die instantly. Unless your can get 90% of the damage while becoming the tankiest build in the game atm

end of discussion.

Which only magSorc can achieve that rn lol.

xylena_lazarow

The archetype I see most commonly used is something like Chudan/Alfiq/Wretched/DDF or Roksa/Alfiq/Rallying/DDF. There are probably better sets than Alfiq but it's convenient and does the job for the average player. This archetype can be tuned a variety of ways and is more than capable of dealing threatening levels of ranged damage (was seeing 11k Overloads from this sort of Sorc yesterday) while face tanking multiples thanks to one single spammable skill.

As obnoxious as Polar Wind, Healthy Offering, and Coagulating Blood are, none of them are enabling this level of survivability on their own, all need to be layered with Vigor and other hots that require upkeep, resources, and GCDs. Ward requires no such active support, only needing synergistic passives that enable it to do everything in one GCD. It's overloaded, overpowered, and enables "tanks that do damage" to a degree the now nerfed MDW never did.

StaticWave

Btw, I wanted to verify what @Jsmalls and @Turtle_Bot said about spell damage vs max mag. Even though we all agree that spell damage has the potential to give more maximum damage, I wanted to demonstrate that the difference is smaller than you think.

For some reason, I can't post any screenshots here, so I'll have to describe my build and tooltip for max spell damage vs max mag build:

Spell damage build:

Sets: 2x Balorgh, 1x Trainee, 5x Rallying Cry front bar, 5x Clever Alchemist back bar, SSC mythic
Armor weight & weapon type: 5 medium 1 light 1 heavy. DW maces/Ice
Traits: 1x Reinforced chest, 6 impen body, 3x infused jewelries, 1x nirnhoned and 1x harp front bar, defending back bar
Glyphs: Full prismatic body, 3x weapon damage jewelries, double dot poisons front bar, berserker back bar
Mundus, race, food and attributes: Shadow, Khajiit, Smoke Bear Haunch and 64 stam
Skills front bar: Arterial Burst, Cfrag, Curse, Streak, Hurricane
Skills back bar: Encase, Dark Deal, Vigor, Elesus, Surge

Tooltip for Curse: 17497
Tooltip for Arterial Burst: 13997

Max mag build:

Sets: 2x Chudan, 1x Trainee, 5x Crafty front bar, 5x Rallying Cry back bar, DDF mythic
Armor weight & weapon type: 5 light 1 medium 1 heavy. DW axes/Ice
Traits: 1x Reinforced chest, 6 impen body, 3x arcane jewelries, 1x nirnhoned and 1x sharp front bar, defending back bar
Glyphs: Full prismatic body, 3x weapon damage jewelries, double dot poisons front bar, berserker back bar
Mundus, race, and attributes: Shadow, Khajiit, Sugar Skull and 64 stam
Skills front bar: Arterial Burst, Cfrag, Streak, Ward, Inner Light
Skills back bar: Curse, Dark Deal, Bound Aegis, Elesus, Surge

Tooltip for Curse: 15215
Tooltip for Arterial Burst: 12173

So yes, while there is a 13% tooltip difference between the max spell damage vs max mag build, the biggest contributing factor to that difference was Major Berserk and Major Courage. By replacing DDF with SSC, my tooltip for Curse and Arterial Burst increased to 17025 and 13619, respectively. My max mag is still 47.6k when fully buffed, but I can increase that further by dropping Shadow for Mage, bumping that number to 50.2k.

While you may think the tooltips are still lower for the max mag build despite having SSC, the effective power for the max mag build is HIGHER. This is because the max mag build has 4k more pen and 3% more crit rate from using 5 light armor pieces. The only way for the max spell damage build to have a higher effective power is through Balorgh stacks. However, the change to Hardened Ward allows the class to tank up to 9k DPS while fully penned. This means you could in fact drop Chudan because it's not really needed, and run another damage monster set OR stack even more max mag with 1x Domihaus + 1x Swarm Mother. This willl greatly increase the effective power of the max mag build.

So in conclusion, it's actually better to diversify your offensive stats rather than going either full max mag or full spell damage. If you go full spell damage, you're not going to be as tanky as a full max mag build. If you go full max mag build, then you won't have the maximum potential damage. However, if I were to choose between giving up 13% tooltip difference to tank 9k DPS, I would choose the latter ALL THE TIME. Having that survivability means you can be offensive better (because you're not stuck on back bar), which translates to better DPS.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

As obnoxious as Polar Wind, Healthy Offering, and Coagulating Blood are, none of them are enabling this level of survivability on their own, all need to be layered with Vigor and other hots that require upkeep, resources, and GCDs. Ward requires no such active support, only needing synergistic passives that enable it to do everything in one GCD. It's overloaded, overpowered, and enables "tanks that do damage" to a degree the now nerfed MDW never did.

This. This is what most people defending Ward don't get. You have to layer several HoTs on most classes to decently heal through damage. For example:

Warden: Vigor, Vines, Minor Lifesteal, Bond with Nature passive, Artic Blast
DK: Vigor, Embers, Cinder Storm, Coag
NB: Vigor, Path, Siphoning Strikes, Offering
Necro: Vigor, Spirit Guardian, Coil, Resistant Flesh
Templar: Vigor, Rune, Ritual, Bubble
Shieldless Sorc: Vigor, Surge, Blood Magic, Dark Deal, Encase
Arcanist: Vigor, Runemend, 3x Crux Impervious Ward

Notice how every class requires slotting Vigor? That's because it's the strongest HoT in the game. If any class drops Vigor, it's not going to survive 4k DPS from 1 person, let alone several players lol. Guess what class can? That's right, it's magSorc. The new Hardened Ward is so ridiculous that Sorc can literally tank up to 9k DPS with just Surge and Hardened Ward. No class in the history of this game has been able to achieve that feat in a FULL damage build.

The fact that Sorc doesn’t need to layer 3-4 HoTs means it frees up several GCDs for its defensive rotation, resulting in more offensive uptime. It's the same reason why Warden's DPS increased so much in PvE when they added a second burst to Deep Fissure. Freeing up 1 GCD meant it could use its spammable more, which over the course of a long fight increased its DPS by 7-8k.

This is why I've repeatedly said in other threads that balancing Sorc needs to be done carefully. The class can be broken so easily if you just throw buffs at it without considering the fact that it has the potential to be extremely strong with minor buffs. Giving Ward a burst heal was a big mistake, and it needs to be modified if people don't want to see a meta full of Sorcs that are unkillable.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

This is what most people defending Ward don't get.

They don't seem to get PvP dps numbers, GCDs, bar slots, or the concept of opportunity cost in general.

I don't think it's worth trying to explain, but it's definitely worth continuing to post evidence of how broken Ward is.

TechMaybeHic

There was a chart at one point around peak Oakensoul that really demonstrated how the opportunity cost of not having to buff made a cyclical impact. Yet somehow then, people still would focus on peak numbers that will just support their argument rather than look at the entire picture. I doubt it will change here