Please Cancel MYM Whitestrake's 2024

Aurielle · February 19

LunaFlora wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Nobody knows PvE boss mechanics till someone tells them or they look it up either.

you can figure it out without other people.
guides don't spawn out of thin air

Well then the same applies to PvP, you can also figure it out as you go.
But as most things it is best to at least make an effort to be prepared.

Learning from PvP encounters is not the same as dungeon boss encounters or other PvE encounters.
you can't just restart and learn what you did wrong because usually the opposing player has already sped off to a new target and isn't just gonna teach you.

and players are not the same every encounter unlike dungeon bosses.

That is literally what the death recap is for. If you’re on PC, addons that track combat events are also available to provide a broader overview of what occurred during an encounter. There are tools at our disposal to figure out what happened.

Sure, it is not EXACTLY the same as a dungeon encounter that is the same every time, but PVPers have predictable patterns as well. E.g. if there’s a tank that’s just letting people wail on them in close proximity to one another in an open field, then you KNOW that said tank has a pocket nightblade waiting in stealth to bomb them all with Vicious Death. If you see someone stealth in a keep that flips, you KNOW this individual will likely attempt to bomb people repairing the door. It is repeated, predictable behaviour that can be countered.

Sarannah · February 19

Aurielle wrote: »

This really isn’t difficult to do. I frankly think it’s extremely toxic of anyone who is anti-PVP to insist every year that this event shouldn’t exist — especially after all the helpful advice that has been given. I could understand getting upset if the event required you to kill another player to get event tickets, but that’s obviously not how it works. These are quick, painfully easy quests that can be done in advance in dead campaigns where your chances of running into another player are infinitesimally small.

Totally get what you are saying, and there are helpful players in PvP as well. But your advice is practically telling the largest part of the playerbase(PvE) not to play during/participate in the PvP event and do everything in advance before the event even starts.
That means four things:
1: Something is terribly wrong with the PvP event itself as most players do not want to play there. And even go out of their way not to be there, and even get advice on how not to be there.
2: Not wanting a fix for the current PvP situation, keeping PvP as small/minor as it is now. Instead of trying to get all the PvE'ers to enjoy the event(and PvP as a whole) as well.
3: Refusing to see PvP itself as a whole is broken, and most players try to avoid it by any means. Even if there are extra/double rewards! (too high barrier of entry)
4: Events(in general) should be something that draws players to the game, events are something all players should enjoy. Yet players are even giving advice on how to avoid an event entirely, and are ok with that. Not seeing how absurd that is.

This is so beyond wrong/broken! Now I'm not sure how to fix this all, but if ZOS somehow got the PvE playerbase to enjoy PvP, it would be great for everyone. PvE'ers would have more parts of the game to enjoy, and PvPers would see more active PvP and shorter queues. Maybe even more PvP content at some point.

Braffin wrote: »

React wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

This is actually a really good thread on discussing PvP, which was kind of the point behind my first controversial reply. Ofcourse I know ZOS won't cancel an event just because one idiot(me) posted he doesn't like it. But I was hoping this would atleast get a discussion going on how ZOS can better this event for everyone involved. As PvP has a too high requirement to just place people in there(event tickets) with no preparation or anything else needed.

PvP should be for everyone, and should be accessible to everyone. This is the number one major issue with PvP. And in order for PvP to grow, some major PvP things need to change. Atleast in my opinion. (If the PvP population grows with all the PvE'ers, PvP would probably also see more love and attention from ZOS, as it would then retain a steady population)

Players shouldn't die in 0.2 seconds either, this leaves no room to learn PvP on your own. Nor does this leave room to call for help, as the battle will be over before you can type "help". It just feels bad, and isn't fun. Take the PvP in other major MMO's, there players die much slower, but this is what makes it real PvP. Players in other MMO's also follow objectives, here every BG is a deathmatch for some. And then they act surprised when noone queues for BG's anymore as those players get slaughtered over and over, creating bigger and bigger queue times. Due to most players not having fun in there, even worse a horrible experience.

Ofcourse all of the above should be done without changing ESO's unique combat system. PvP should be for everyone!

PS: PvP events can sometimes be fun the first few days, when it is mostly PvE'ers vs PvE'ers, which makes for some fair fights. After that it becomes a gankfest again. PvPers ruin PvP.
PPS: To get all the event morphs and the base pet when ZOS is done with a specific event reward, you can't miss any event tickets at all. Unless you want to buy a few from the shop(which I never do).

Accessibility doesn't, and should not work the same way in PVP as it does in PVE. You cannot simply give inexperienced players tools that will balance them with experienced players, because that invalidates the thousands of hours veterans have spent honing their craft.

I agree, except your words regarding PvE. Inexperienced players shouldn't match the results of experienced players in any game-mode. This would only trivialize the game and lead to an overall decrease of skill regarding the community. That's why in PvE balance should mainly be focused around encountered content instead of fruitlessly trying to "narrow the dps-gap"

I agree tho, that PvP-gameplay is more impacted by bad design-choices (like former brokensoul for example) due to it's competitive nature.

Totally disagree. What you guys are stating is the main reason why PvP is so broken and why most players avoid it. If you take an experienced player with 100k dps and place them against a player with 10k dps... there is only one possible outcome: The 10k dps player will never touch PvP ever again. And this is exactly what this event does, highlighting all the issues that make most players avoid PvP entirely.

Just because PvP players have played/prepared/practiced thousands of hours, does not mean other players shouldn't be anywhere near their level(that is just stroking/feeding their ego). A car that cost 100k ten years ago doesn't cost 100k anymore today either. There should be a 2-5% difference tops between any player! Otherwise we get what we have now. Even an inexperienced player should have a small chance to win against the top experienced players. A 2-5% difference is already a lot in PvP, where the most experienced players will still mainly end up winning. That is the only way PvP works, if it is fair from new players to top tier players. Right now PvP in ESO isn't PvP, it's a gankfest. And these replies show why: They don't want a fair playing field in PvP, they don't want fair PvP battles, they just want to keep slaughtering other players. Even though the entire PvP community/PvP part of the game, and the game itself, suffer because of this.

The PvP part of the game needs to become fair: Crutch mechanics(autoweaving/autobarswapping/etc), PvP build loadouts to choose from when entering PvP, no foods/drinks, no potions, no dps gap, no add-ons, etc. Truly fairplay where everyone has a chance. Some players will always be more skilled/experienced, and that is ok, but right now this is beyond broken. And some players try to keep it that way.

In my opinion a new player should basically be able to start PvPing right away, and have fun/fair battles right away.

PS: Funny, I was totally expecting ZOS to edit my previous post because of calling someone an idiot!

Edit:

React wrote: »

Whereas in PVP we've had things like oakensoul (your example), where inexperienced players were able to output the same damage spamming one skill (molten whip on DK) with the same survivability as an experienced player doing a perfect rotation using two bars of skills. This directly impacted other players as it gave an unreasonable amount of power to inexperienced players for the effort they put in, in a competitive environment where skill and knowledge are supposed to give you an advantage.

And more players were actively playing both PvE and PvP. So this was good for the game, and all parts of the game. This is how the game and PvP should be!
Saying different is just not wanting a fair playingfield/fair PvP battles, and keeping the current gankfest/low PvP population in place.

Another thing you highlight is that players actually wanted to PvP and were in a PvP zone with those builds, as for once PvP became more fair. Still most of the time the more experienced player would win! So fair battles would grow the PvP community. You are making a point against your own argument.

Twig_Garlicshine · February 19

<<Frequently pulls out a fishing rod and joins enemies fishing in both IC and Cyro.
<<Frequently helps enemies down bosses in IC. (Hint don't Aoe)
<<Frequently destroys gank squads at quest areas when Calls for help go out (they are generally bad and/or PvEers looking for easy kills).
<<Frequently gives advice on how to get event tickets to inexperienced, or incapable PvEers.
(Including in this thread)
<<Frequently gives advice on gear, Strats, and builds to learn PvP.
To be totally honest, I find the PvE population to be more like the PvP stereotype, than the PvPers themselves.

At this point I no longer care if PvEers are encouraged to try out PvP and decide to like it.
With the continual lowering of population caps outside of the 2, repeat 2, PvP events,
this game has more serious PvP issues than getting new population in PvP,
namely KEEPING THE PVP POPULATION THAT DOES EXIST AND HAS BEEN DRIVEN AWAY.

Give the PvEers another way to get their tickets, I no care anymore.

P.S. And no this is not a conspiracy post (to the person who reports any post he doesn't like as a conspiracy theory.)

Poss · February 19

Cancel Whitestrakes????

Hell nah

Aurielle · February 19

Sarannah wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

This really isn’t difficult to do. I frankly think it’s extremely toxic of anyone who is anti-PVP to insist every year that this event shouldn’t exist — especially after all the helpful advice that has been given. I could understand getting upset if the event required you to kill another player to get event tickets, but that’s obviously not how it works. These are quick, painfully easy quests that can be done in advance in dead campaigns where your chances of running into another player are infinitesimally small.

Totally get what you are saying, and there are helpful players in PvP as well. But your advice is practically telling the largest part of the playerbase(PvE) not to play during/participate in the PvP event and do everything in advance before the event even starts.
That means four things:
1: Something is terribly wrong with the PvP event itself as most players do not want to play there. And even go out of their way not to be there, and even get advice on how not to be there.
2: Not wanting a fix for the current PvP situation, keeping PvP as small/minor as it is now. Instead of trying to get all the PvE'ers to enjoy the event(and PvP as a whole) as well.
3: Refusing to see PvP itself as a whole is broken, and most players try to avoid it by any means. Even if there are extra/double rewards! (too high barrier of entry)
4: Events(in general) should be something that draws players to the game, events are something all players should enjoy. Yet players are even giving advice on how to avoid an event entirely, and are ok with that. Not seeing how absurd that is.

This is so beyond wrong/broken! Now I'm not sure how to fix this all, but if ZOS somehow got the PvE playerbase to enjoy PvP, it would be great for everyone. PvE'ers would have more parts of the game to enjoy, and PvPers would see more active PvP and shorter queues. Maybe even more PvP content at some point.

I respectfully disagree. I’m suggesting that SOME people could complete these quests in dead campaigns before the event starts because these individuals appear terrified at the prospect of potentially even encountering another player, and are complaining every year about the event, asking for it to be cancelled, etc. Ideally, they would complete these quests in groups during the event and actually enjoy what PVP has to offer, but they refuse to, for whatever reason. Since the servers are more populated during the event, their risk of dying or getting ganked while traversing the map as a solo player increases, so they can come back to the forums and say “see? This event is unfair! I got killed going to the quest objective!” That is an individual player issue, not a PVP game mode issue. My suggestion is designed to help anti-PVP players with their own issue, so they can get their tickets, and says absolutely nothing about PVP itself.

Poss · February 19

Just read this entire thread. [snip] It’s incredible. There’s plenty of events over the course of the year where you can grind tickets. This is our event, leave it alone. We only get two each year. [snip] no one is forcing you into PvP.

Oh btw, pvpers also have to delve into pve zones to kill dragons and slay dungeon bosses for tickets too

[edited for baiting]

Braffin · February 19

@Sarannah

As usual we disagree.

That said, I'm not at all against an even and fair playing field. It isn't fair tho to invalidate experience by handing out broken builds (like brokensoul) to inexperienced players. That would only further trivialize the game for all of us.

Nobody is preventing inexperienced players to get some experience. If they aren't interested in doing so, that's their personal decision.

I wouldn't mind a "casual instance" of cyrodiil tho, offering lower rewards than the "veteran" version, to create a suitable space for inexperienced players to practice their skills.

Trivializing gamemodes and combat mechanics isn't a viable solution tho, but would only further alienate large amounts of the playerbase.

"Lower the ceiling, raise the floor" will never work, as long as raising the floor isn't done as forcefully as lowering the ceiling. It simply alienates skilled players and push them away from the game, leaving the community in a bad shape.

SerafinaWaterstar · February 19

@Tommy_The_Gun
Totally agree with your point about IC - was just over a month ago the last event that involved it ended.

Personally I like the pve side of IC [snip]

And I used to love love love Cyrodiil. Was such fun, but over the years (over 7) it has become far less engaging, sadly. It just seems to bring out the worst in people, [snip] I have better things to waste my time on.

But don’t cancel the event!

[edited for baiting]

Poss · February 19

Braffin wrote: »

@Sarannah
I wouldn't mind a "casual instance" of cyrodiil tho, offering lower rewards than the "veteran" version, to create a suitable space for inexperienced players to practice their skills.

There’s literally an under lvl 50 campaign

fizl101 · February 19

Poss wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

@Sarannah
I wouldn't mind a "casual instance" of cyrodiil tho, offering lower rewards than the "veteran" version, to create a suitable space for inexperienced players to practice their skills.

There’s literally an under lvl 50 campaign

Unfortunately though thats often dominated by people who recycle new characters through there constantly (at least as much as I've seen on PS)

JustLovely · February 19

They are doing maintenance the day before the MYM event starts this week. So maybe we'll see an increased pop cap for the event and/or maybe even increased performance as we used to see during the MYM events. Maybe.

Poss · February 19

JustLovely wrote: »

They are doing maintenance the day before the MYM event starts this week. So maybe we'll see an increased pop cap for the event and/or maybe even increased performance as we used to see during the MYM events. Maybe.

Yeh a 12 hour maintenance too. Interesting

Hea1y · February 19

Cancel Whitestrake? Leave us alone

Thanks

zaria · February 19

ComboBreaker88 wrote: »

Simply allow mounting while in combat...

Or simplify rules x10 times, you have not taken damage or done damage or heals for say 10-20 seconds allow mounting.
That group members hundreds of meter away pull npc enemies should not affect your ability to mount.

DrNukenstein · February 19

Sarannah wrote: »

Totally get what you are saying, and there are helpful players in PvP as well. But your advice is practically telling the largest part of the playerbase(PvE) not to play during/participate in the PvP event and do everything in advance before the event even starts.
That means four things:
1: Something is terribly wrong with the PvP event itself as most players do not want to play there. And even go out of their way not to be there, and even get advice on how not to be there.
2: Not wanting a fix for the current PvP situation, keeping PvP as small/minor as it is now. Instead of trying to get all the PvE'ers to enjoy the event(and PvP as a whole) as well.
3: Refusing to see PvP itself as a whole is broken, and most players try to avoid it by any means. Even if there are extra/double rewards! (too high barrier of entry)
4: Events(in general) should be something that draws players to the game, events are something all players should enjoy. Yet players are even giving advice on how to avoid an event entirely, and are ok with that. Not seeing how absurd that is.

This is so beyond wrong/broken! Now I'm not sure how to fix this all, but if ZOS somehow got the PvE playerbase to enjoy PvP, it would be great for everyone. PvE'ers would have more parts of the game to enjoy, and PvPers would see more active PvP and shorter queues. Maybe even more PvP content at some point.

I'm gonna be real with you. I have PVPed a lot in this game, like thousands of hours and I am not good. Most of us are not "good" like the content creators who most players copy.

The action economy in this game whether you do PVE or PVP is insane. I'm talking light attack, skill, block, bash, roll, sprint and you can do all of those in the same second.... and you should. Good gameplay involves making good use of this schizo action economy, and you don't get that down on your way to level 50.

Then going from PVE to PVP it's an entirely different game with different decision making and itemization. You should get absolutely smoked in PVP if you go in with a PVE mindset, because you are trying to play a different game than the game that is. Like if you're a damage dealer in PVE you just do damage, if you are a damage dealer in PVP you also heal, mitigate, and sustain at a comfortable level. Learning how to do it all at the same time takes time. And while you're learning that you should try to learn something each time you get dunked on.

And we aren't even getting into gear gaps, build choices, or meta here. That stuff comes after mindset.

KiltMaster · February 19

Sarannah wrote: »

Nah, they really shouldn't cancel MYM because of those reasons. They should cancel MYM because noone wants to PvP.

I know what I'll be doing during that event: Grab my tickets as fast as possible, be annoyed by all the delays and time wasted due to gankers/PvPers, and then log off for the rest of the day while being annoyed.

PS: Don't make us go to multiple PvP zones to get all the event tickets in PvP events, as that's even more annoying on top of PvP itself being annoying/stupid.

Found one!

Right on schedule

Araneae6537 · February 19

I’m sure it will be extra chaotic during MYM, but on the other hand, there will also be more groups to join. I’ve been going to IC to try to find the books that can drop from Scrivener’s Hall and view opposing players rather like running into Marauder Gothmau several cycles into the Infinite Archive!

At least lives are not limited in IC, and deaths to players don’t damage armor!

(Edited to fix typo)

katanagirl1 · February 19

Sarannah wrote: »

This is actually a really good thread on discussing PvP, which was kind of the point behind my first controversial reply. Ofcourse I know ZOS won't cancel an event just because one idiot(me) posted he doesn't like it. But I was hoping this would atleast get a discussion going on how ZOS can better this event for everyone involved. As PvP has a too high requirement to just place people in there(event tickets) with no preparation or anything else needed.

PvP should be for everyone, and should be accessible to everyone. This is the number one major issue with PvP. And in order for PvP to grow, some major PvP things need to change. Atleast in my opinion. (If the PvP population grows with all the PvE'ers, PvP would probably also see more love and attention from ZOS, as it would then retain a steady population)

Players shouldn't die in 0.2 seconds either, this leaves no room to learn PvP on your own. Nor does this leave room to call for help, as the battle will be over before you can type "help". It just feels bad, and isn't fun. Take the PvP in other major MMO's, there players die much slower, but this is what makes it real PvP. Players in other MMO's also follow objectives, here every BG is a deathmatch for some. And then they act surprised when noone queues for BG's anymore as those players get slaughtered over and over, creating bigger and bigger queue times. Due to most players not having fun in there, even worse a horrible experience.

Ofcourse all of the above should be done without changing ESO's unique combat system. PvP should be for everyone!

PS: PvP events can sometimes be fun the first few days, when it is mostly PvE'ers vs PvE'ers, which makes for some fair fights. After that it becomes a gankfest again. PvPers ruin PvP.
PPS: To get all the event morphs and the base pet when ZOS is done with a specific event reward, you can't miss any event tickets at all. Unless you want to buy a few from the shop(which I never do).

I’m not quite sure how to address this, and I am a player coming from strictly PvE until I had to go to Cyrodiil to unlock Vigor for my stamblade years ago. I now love PvP, but it is different and expecting it to be like PvE is the main mistake most players make. The other is being so afraid of dying. Everyone dies in Cyrodiil, even the best players. They just die less often.

Most of the PvE complaints come from those who are used to not dying if they are good in PvE, and until you get a good build (both the right gear and skills) and work on a dynamic rotation instead of the static rotation you are used to in PvE, it’s going to be rough. Each battle is a learning opportunity though.

So if you’re PvE I would recommend doing what I did in my first MYM, run with the Zerg, get killed, wait for someone to revive you or respawn at the nearest keep, and rinse and repeat. As I always say do not do the Cyrodiil town quests if you do not want to get ganked because you surely will be at the quest turn-in locations.

PvP is for everyone and is accessible to everyone, but it’s like going into trials. Ideally you would not just run any gear and any skills and have no knowledge of mechanics or you will not be successful. You have to adapt to the situation and not insist that it be changed to suit you. I hope you take this as me saying it in the nicest way, which I am trying to do.

Vulkunne · February 20

React wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

React wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

This is actually a really good thread on discussing PvP, which was kind of the point behind my first controversial reply. Ofcourse I know ZOS won't cancel an event just because one idiot(me) posted he doesn't like it. But I was hoping this would atleast get a discussion going on how ZOS can better this event for everyone involved. As PvP has a too high requirement to just place people in there(event tickets) with no preparation or anything else needed.

PvP should be for everyone, and should be accessible to everyone. This is the number one major issue with PvP. And in order for PvP to grow, some major PvP things need to change. Atleast in my opinion. (If the PvP population grows with all the PvE'ers, PvP would probably also see more love and attention from ZOS, as it would then retain a steady population)

Players shouldn't die in 0.2 seconds either, this leaves no room to learn PvP on your own. Nor does this leave room to call for help, as the battle will be over before you can type "help". It just feels bad, and isn't fun. Take the PvP in other major MMO's, there players die much slower, but this is what makes it real PvP. Players in other MMO's also follow objectives, here every BG is a deathmatch for some. And then they act surprised when noone queues for BG's anymore as those players get slaughtered over and over, creating bigger and bigger queue times. Due to most players not having fun in there, even worse a horrible experience.

Ofcourse all of the above should be done without changing ESO's unique combat system. PvP should be for everyone!

PS: PvP events can sometimes be fun the first few days, when it is mostly PvE'ers vs PvE'ers, which makes for some fair fights. After that it becomes a gankfest again. PvPers ruin PvP.
PPS: To get all the event morphs and the base pet when ZOS is done with a specific event reward, you can't miss any event tickets at all. Unless you want to buy a few from the shop(which I never do).

Accessibility doesn't, and should not work the same way in PVP as it does in PVE. You cannot simply give inexperienced players tools that will balance them with experienced players, because that invalidates the thousands of hours veterans have spent honing their craft.

I agree, except your words regarding PvE. Inexperienced players shouldn't match the results of experienced players in any game-mode. This would only trivialize the game and lead to an overall decrease of skill regarding the community. That's why in PvE balance should mainly be focused around encountered content instead of fruitlessly trying to "narrow the dps-gap"

I agree tho, that PvP-gameplay is more impacted by bad design-choices (like former brokensoul for example) due to it's competitive nature.

Oh I totally agree, and I think most of the endgame community does as evidenced by the mass exodus following U35. I just meant that in PVE it doesn't particularly harm other players as there isn't as much direct competition apart from the top end score pushing groups, and no level of accessibility is going to allow inexperienced players to jump to that level.

Whereas in PVP we've had things like oakensoul (your example), where inexperienced players were able to output the same damage spamming one skill (molten whip on DK) with the same survivability as an experienced player doing a perfect rotation using two bars of skills. This directly impacted other players as it gave an unreasonable amount of power to inexperienced players for the effort they put in, in a competitive environment where skill and knowledge are supposed to give you an advantage.

Just wanted to comment on what you were saying about rotation and so forth. Could it be, that in this current PvP experience we have actually reached the point where mythic sets aren't as much op as much as they have actually become the solution to gameplay breaking annoyances? For example, never mind Midyears for a moment, in any casual day in Cyrodiil we have to deal with things like lag, d-sync, ball groups, skills not working, gap closer anomalies, proc set abilies *not* firing at all, people just healing thru most damage, perma-block tanks, sometimes constant CC abuse to the point the game is unplayable (especially Arcanist CC) and Emps who refuse to abdicate (yet don't play on the server anymore) and so forth. These are some of the many problematic things that work against the flow of a normal PvP experience.

Now you stated you didn't care for how oak was tipping the scales. Ok, but in what we consider a normal day in Cyrodiil, chances are great you're not always going to get that perfect rotation anyways for reasons I indicated previously. So call it a veteran or an elite, call it what you will, these days everyone is having trouble now of some kind and it doesn't matter who you are if nothing works. That said, I think if some mythics provide us with even a little relief then that IS progress. That's what it looks like because the server cannot handle the stress of people doing full rotations and doing rain-dances and so forth. Its not that vets are worth less its that we're in a meta now where less is more. And the new people are wise enough to not only pick up on this concept from other games, such as New World, and then also because of the Cyrodiil ailments, this is coming together like the perfect storm and putting us in a new meta based more on skill and less on exhaustive, heavy-handed rotations, which won't do much for you anyways because the ball groups seem to have a monopoly on that, bringing the lag therein with them when they come around.

Quackery · February 20

Just visit Uncle Sheo and problem solved. OR you can try to light attack a tree. It sometimes gets you out of the battle-mode briefly so make sure to be quick to mount.

Sarannah · February 20

Braffin wrote: »

@Sarannah

As usual we disagree.

That said, I'm not at all against an even and fair playing field. It isn't fair tho to invalidate experience by handing out broken builds (like brokensoul) to inexperienced players. That would only further trivialize the game for all of us.

Nobody is preventing inexperienced players to get some experience. If they aren't interested in doing so, that's their personal decision.

I wouldn't mind a "casual instance" of cyrodiil tho, offering lower rewards than the "veteran" version, to create a suitable space for inexperienced players to practice their skills.

Trivializing gamemodes and combat mechanics isn't a viable solution tho, but would only further alienate large amounts of the playerbase.

"Lower the ceiling, raise the floor" will never work, as long as raising the floor isn't done as forcefully as lowering the ceiling. It simply alienates skilled players and push them away from the game, leaving the community in a bad shape.

Yes, we actually disagree quite a bit. But there have also been times where I clicked agree on your posts as I agreed with them! But those times aren't as obvious as a full blown discussion on the forums(forum PvP!

).

Noone ever asked for a lower ceiling, but only for a raised floor. Not sure where you saw that. Something which oakensoul did, as it raised the floor from 10k to 70k dps and granted some survivability for players. And as usual, PvPers didn't like more fair fights with players who were on their level. So oakensoul got nerfed. All the while 2 bar weaving players were still quite a bit better than oakensoul users. So in my opinion the nerf was uncalled for.
You think oakensoul was a problem, I feel oakensoul was actually a solution to real PvP only accessible for diehard PvPers being the problem.
But let's just agree to disagree on this.

And I agree with you that the unique combat system of ESO shouldn't be changed and the ceiling shouldn't be lowered, but there does need to be a way for inexperienced, incapable, or otherwise being unable to perform that combat system type players to have something to rely on. I don't think anyone wants ESO's unique combat system changed, not even me!

Personally I love seeing discussions such as this one, because it is good hearing/seeing all sides and all arguments for and against. This also helps ZOS form an opinion on things like this. None of us know what ZOS thinks or looks for when seeing discussions like this though. As they look at it very differently than we do, and with the ESO sourcecode in mind on what is possible or not, and with an eye on what might already be coming to ESO in the future.

PS: ZOS could actually test my theory. By making a test BG where all players are naked, no CP,, no skillpoints, no gear, have 20k hp(example), and max everyone's dps to 1k tops. Just to see how players like fair PvP. Maybe even a version where playes have 100k hp and 1k dps tops, to test how longer battles feel to players. While ofcourse getting everyone to try it.
PPS: I see someone posted about Cyrodiil server issues and how oakensoul somewhat relieved that server stress. Which is also a good point!

React · February 20

Sarannah wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

@Sarannah

As usual we disagree.

That said, I'm not at all against an even and fair playing field. It isn't fair tho to invalidate experience by handing out broken builds (like brokensoul) to inexperienced players. That would only further trivialize the game for all of us.

Nobody is preventing inexperienced players to get some experience. If they aren't interested in doing so, that's their personal decision.

I wouldn't mind a "casual instance" of cyrodiil tho, offering lower rewards than the "veteran" version, to create a suitable space for inexperienced players to practice their skills.

Trivializing gamemodes and combat mechanics isn't a viable solution tho, but would only further alienate large amounts of the playerbase.

"Lower the ceiling, raise the floor" will never work, as long as raising the floor isn't done as forcefully as lowering the ceiling. It simply alienates skilled players and push them away from the game, leaving the community in a bad shape.

Yes, we actually disagree quite a bit. But there have also been times where I clicked agree on your posts as I agreed with them! But those times aren't as obvious as a full blown discussion on the forums(forum PvP! ).

Noone ever asked for a lower ceiling, but only for a raised floor. Not sure where you saw that. Something which oakensoul did, as it raised the floor from 10k to 70k dps and granted some survivability for players. And as usual, PvPers didn't like more fair fights with players who were on their level. So oakensoul got nerfed. All the while 2 bar weaving players were still quite a bit better than oakensoul users. So in my opinion the nerf was uncalled for.
You think oakensoul was a problem, I feel oakensoul was actually a solution to real PvP only accessible for diehard PvPers being the problem.
But let's just agree to disagree on this.

And I agree with you that the unique combat system of ESO shouldn't be changed and the ceiling shouldn't be lowered, but there does need to be a way for inexperienced, incapable, or otherwise being unable to perform that combat system type players to have something to rely on. I don't think anyone wants ESO's unique combat system changed, not even me!

Personally I love seeing discussions such as this one, because it is good hearing/seeing all sides and all arguments for and against. This also helps ZOS form an opinion on things like this. None of us know what ZOS thinks or looks for when seeing discussions like this though. As they look at it very differently than we do, and with the ESO sourcecode in mind on what is possible or not, and with an eye on what might already be coming to ESO in the future.

PS: ZOS could actually test my theory. By making a test BG where all players are naked, no CP,, no skillpoints, no gear, have 20k hp(example), and max everyone's dps to 1k tops. Just to see how players like fair PvP. Maybe even a version where playes have 100k hp and 1k dps tops, to test how longer battles feel to players. While ofcourse getting everyone to try it.
PPS: I see someone posted about Cyrodiil server issues and how oakensoul somewhat relieved that server stress. Which is also a good point!

I don't know where you're getting these dps numbers from - 5k DPS sustained in PVP is considered high, with 7-8k being the outter limit of what is possible by any current build or player. 10k DPS would be beyond extreme, and unsurviveable by a normal build. An environment where "everybody does 1k dps tops" would be one where we all tickle each other with feathers until we get bored and log out.

You're not understanding that there is supposed to be a skill gap in a competitive PVP settings. When a single item narrows the skill gap as drastically as oakensoul did without the players themselves doing anything at all to improve their gameplay (and in fact doing less, as oakensoul removed buff management and barswapping from the equation) that is in no way healthy for the game. You mention fairness, but there is nothing fair about invalidating the time and effort veterans have spent honing their craft by introducing a single equippable item that brings brand new players up to their level of effectiveness.

An environment where everyone uses the same sets could be cool, but wouldn't work in practice. ESO isn't balanced in a way where you can put crafted sets or similar on every class and have it work well for everybody. This is evidenced by no-proc, where a couple classes are completely dominant and nobody wants to play because the build options are so drastically limited. Build craft is a huge part of ESO pvp after all, and always has been.

Braffin · February 20

Sarannah wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

@Sarannah

As usual we disagree.

That said, I'm not at all against an even and fair playing field. It isn't fair tho to invalidate experience by handing out broken builds (like brokensoul) to inexperienced players. That would only further trivialize the game for all of us.

Nobody is preventing inexperienced players to get some experience. If they aren't interested in doing so, that's their personal decision.

I wouldn't mind a "casual instance" of cyrodiil tho, offering lower rewards than the "veteran" version, to create a suitable space for inexperienced players to practice their skills.

Trivializing gamemodes and combat mechanics isn't a viable solution tho, but would only further alienate large amounts of the playerbase.

"Lower the ceiling, raise the floor" will never work, as long as raising the floor isn't done as forcefully as lowering the ceiling. It simply alienates skilled players and push them away from the game, leaving the community in a bad shape.

Yes, we actually disagree quite a bit. But there have also been times where I clicked agree on your posts as I agreed with them! But those times aren't as obvious as a full blown discussion on the forums(forum PvP! ).

Noone ever asked for a lower ceiling, but only for a raised floor. Not sure where you saw that. Something which oakensoul did, as it raised the floor from 10k to 70k dps and granted some survivability for players. And as usual, PvPers didn't like more fair fights with players who were on their level. So oakensoul got nerfed. All the while 2 bar weaving players were still quite a bit better than oakensoul users. So in my opinion the nerf was uncalled for.
You think oakensoul was a problem, I feel oakensoul was actually a solution to real PvP only accessible for diehard PvPers being the problem.
But let's just agree to disagree on this.

And I agree with you that the unique combat system of ESO shouldn't be changed and the ceiling shouldn't be lowered, but there does need to be a way for inexperienced, incapable, or otherwise being unable to perform that combat system type players to have something to rely on. I don't think anyone wants ESO's unique combat system changed, not even me!

Personally I love seeing discussions such as this one, because it is good hearing/seeing all sides and all arguments for and against. This also helps ZOS form an opinion on things like this. None of us know what ZOS thinks or looks for when seeing discussions like this though. As they look at it very differently than we do, and with the ESO sourcecode in mind on what is possible or not, and with an eye on what might already be coming to ESO in the future.

PS: ZOS could actually test my theory. By making a test BG where all players are naked, no CP,, no skillpoints, no gear, have 20k hp(example), and max everyone's dps to 1k tops. Just to see how players like fair PvP. Maybe even a version where playes have 100k hp and 1k dps tops, to test how longer battles feel to players. While ofcourse getting everyone to try it.
PPS: I see someone posted about Cyrodiil server issues and how oakensoul somewhat relieved that server stress. Which is also a good point!

You are basically asking for changing the current gear-based and skill-based PvP-system into a mainly skill-based PvP-system (player-skill, not skills in-game) like they are usual for multiplayer FPS.

Now, while I don't want to see Cyrodiil, IC or BGs changed in that manner (it would delete completely viable playstyles), I wouldn't mind an additional game-mode for PvP, which is catering to this style.

I don't think tho said mode would show the results you are expecting from it. In my personal impression (and I played a lot of FPS over the years) it's significantly harder to compete against other players in an skill-based environment (where only things like general experience, ability to LoS, movement and dexterity count), than it is to do so in gear-based scenarios.

It would basically be a competitive "ranked" mode.

Solutions like zos tried with brokensoul don't solve anything tho. In a competitive envirmonment most players will always choose the most effective tactics available (we see this currently with MDW/vate-meta in PvP), leaving other builds mainly unused outside of niche usage (which is again something more viable for experienced players). Offering an easy mode (like brokensoul was) will achieve nothing but extinct build diversity.

That's why a lot of PvPers asked for nerfs: Not because they intended to keep their "elitist playground", but to prevent an already overpowered gearing option to become the only viable one.

All players have access to the very same gear at present (excluding questions regarding DLC-access here), that's fair. The difference between various player experiences in PvP isn't based on gear, but skill itself. That's why I recommend to split the playerbase by skill level, so everyone can have fun by fighting against approximately equal enemies.

Concrete solutions for each game mode:
1) BGs - An easy one: Just fix the currently broken matchmaking system by making it account-wide.
2) Cyro - Set either a veteran campaign with increased rewards or a casual campaign with reduced rewards to create space for inexperienced but interested players.
3) IC - The most tricky part due to mixed PvPvE and somewhat costly deaths. But incentivizing general PvP in there would surely help with reducing the amount of gankers, which are solely after easy kills against PvEers.

Additionally, let's hope for meaningful PvP-additions during Q4. I personally wouldn't mind a more skill-based approach for that content, although eso isn't really built for this type of play imo.

Aurielle · February 20

Braffin wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

@Sarannah

As usual we disagree.

That said, I'm not at all against an even and fair playing field. It isn't fair tho to invalidate experience by handing out broken builds (like brokensoul) to inexperienced players. That would only further trivialize the game for all of us.

Nobody is preventing inexperienced players to get some experience. If they aren't interested in doing so, that's their personal decision.

I wouldn't mind a "casual instance" of cyrodiil tho, offering lower rewards than the "veteran" version, to create a suitable space for inexperienced players to practice their skills.

Trivializing gamemodes and combat mechanics isn't a viable solution tho, but would only further alienate large amounts of the playerbase.

"Lower the ceiling, raise the floor" will never work, as long as raising the floor isn't done as forcefully as lowering the ceiling. It simply alienates skilled players and push them away from the game, leaving the community in a bad shape.

Yes, we actually disagree quite a bit. But there have also been times where I clicked agree on your posts as I agreed with them! But those times aren't as obvious as a full blown discussion on the forums(forum PvP! ).

Noone ever asked for a lower ceiling, but only for a raised floor. Not sure where you saw that. Something which oakensoul did, as it raised the floor from 10k to 70k dps and granted some survivability for players. And as usual, PvPers didn't like more fair fights with players who were on their level. So oakensoul got nerfed. All the while 2 bar weaving players were still quite a bit better than oakensoul users. So in my opinion the nerf was uncalled for.
You think oakensoul was a problem, I feel oakensoul was actually a solution to real PvP only accessible for diehard PvPers being the problem.
But let's just agree to disagree on this.

And I agree with you that the unique combat system of ESO shouldn't be changed and the ceiling shouldn't be lowered, but there does need to be a way for inexperienced, incapable, or otherwise being unable to perform that combat system type players to have something to rely on. I don't think anyone wants ESO's unique combat system changed, not even me!

Personally I love seeing discussions such as this one, because it is good hearing/seeing all sides and all arguments for and against. This also helps ZOS form an opinion on things like this. None of us know what ZOS thinks or looks for when seeing discussions like this though. As they look at it very differently than we do, and with the ESO sourcecode in mind on what is possible or not, and with an eye on what might already be coming to ESO in the future.

PS: ZOS could actually test my theory. By making a test BG where all players are naked, no CP,, no skillpoints, no gear, have 20k hp(example), and max everyone's dps to 1k tops. Just to see how players like fair PvP. Maybe even a version where playes have 100k hp and 1k dps tops, to test how longer battles feel to players. While ofcourse getting everyone to try it.
PPS: I see someone posted about Cyrodiil server issues and how oakensoul somewhat relieved that server stress. Which is also a good point!

You are basically asking for changing the current gear-based and skill-based PvP-system into a mainly skill-based PvP-system (player-skill, not skills in-game) like they are usual for multiplayer FPS.

Now, while I don't want to see Cyrodiil, IC or BGs changed in that manner (it would delete completely viable playstyles), I wouldn't mind an additional game-mode for PvP, which is catering to this style.

I don't think tho said mode would show the results you are expecting from it. In my personal impression (and I played a lot of FPS over the years) it's significantly harder to compete against other players in an skill-based environment (where only things like general experience, ability to LoS, movement and dexterity count), than it is to do so in gear-based scenarios.

It would basically be a competitive "ranked" mode.

You and Sarannah reminded me of a suggestion I made a few years ago, that was also inspired by FPS games: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/514471/reinventing-large-scale-pvp-in-eso

There are a lot of flaws with what I was suggesting back then (Cyrodiil is in a much better place than it was four years ago after the server upgrades, for one thing, and I no longer like the idea of eliminating Cyrodiil as we know it), but it's possible that something like this could be implemented for a new region of the game as a separate PVP game mode. Disallow sets and CP, but allow players to choose/earn weapons specific to that particular PVP mode that they can level up (as is the case in many FPS games). Put siege weapons (which would be on a different skill wheel, not an item you carry) on a cool down, so that strategic choices need to be made by groups re: when to deploy siege and what kinds of siege weapons to deploy. You'd earn ranks and get matched with players of similar rank. It would be a mix of pure skill and siege/objective capture strategy, with some basic gear levelling incorporated. Could be interesting. I'd certainly play it!

Stanx · February 20

I don't like to PVP either but I have earned my tickets for the many MYM / Whitestrakes over the years by playing purely PVE. I'll log into a campaign with a low population and complete quests in Bruma or Cropsford. I'll sneak and make sure the coast is clear. It takes me about 10 minutes at most to get my tickets at get out.

It sounds pretty unfair to try and rob PVP'ers of the only two events they get in the year because PVP isn't a preferred playstyle when you don't even have to PVP to get the tickets. Sometimes I'll get PVP'd but I'll just respawn and try again or I'll switch from Cyrodil to IC and try my luck there.

Adremal · February 20

Aurielle wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

No, it is not "the same" for PvP, unless you compare that to Trials, which some of us will never do. I can't even do some group dungeons.

Having the eye-finger coordination is much harder for some. Doable enough for much PvE content, but impossible when going against players that can take a full massive hit and get 0 damage, then 1-shot me. I am not in proper PvP gear, but really?

Getting ganked 5 times in a row (last time I tried during an event) killed the idea of trying to run some of the quests.

Those of you who love ganking need to learn that the ganked will stop being your targets when it is useless to even try.

It would be much better if I played against others with my skill, but nothing enforces that now, something many here miss.

It’s absolutely true that different people struggle with content that others find easy in this game. But that doesn’t mean an entire event should not exist... You wouldn’t cancel dungeon events because some people struggle to complete dungeons on normal difficulty. Similarly, PVP events should not be cancelled because some PVEers don’t like PVP.

As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, you can pre-load MYM quests, complete them in dead campaigns before the event when there’s no one around (see: no CP campaign) and turn them in during the event without ever having to encounter another player at a quest objective. Heck, even I am pre-loading the quests, and I’m a PVPer! I’d much rather spend my time earning double AP during the event, not doing quests.

This really isn’t difficult to do. I frankly think it’s extremely toxic of anyone who is anti-PVP to insist every year that this event shouldn’t exist — especially after all the helpful advice that has been given. I could understand getting upset if the event required you to kill another player to get event tickets, but that’s obviously not how it works. These are quick, painfully easy quests that can be done in advance in dead campaigns where your chances of running into another player are infinitesimally small.

The pre-loading method only works if you know about it, if you have enough alts and if you can avoid people who actively hunt pre-loaders down (yes they are thing). Other than that sure, that's an option and I use it myself in case I'll have to be offline for some days, but it's telling of how sorry the state of PvP is. I bet there are gonna be people, like many other times, who'd rather skip the event. Especially since not much seems to have been fixed in the last couple of years (such was the length of the break I took and I didn't stay up to date, but I'm seeing "more of the same").

DrNukenstein · February 20

"Forthed Peeveepee"

Auldwulfe · February 20

Adremal wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

No, it is not "the same" for PvP, unless you compare that to Trials, which some of us will never do. I can't even do some group dungeons.

Having the eye-finger coordination is much harder for some. Doable enough for much PvE content, but impossible when going against players that can take a full massive hit and get 0 damage, then 1-shot me. I am not in proper PvP gear, but really?

Getting ganked 5 times in a row (last time I tried during an event) killed the idea of trying to run some of the quests.

Those of you who love ganking need to learn that the ganked will stop being your targets when it is useless to even try.

It would be much better if I played against others with my skill, but nothing enforces that now, something many here miss.

It’s absolutely true that different people struggle with content that others find easy in this game. But that doesn’t mean an entire event should not exist... You wouldn’t cancel dungeon events because some people struggle to complete dungeons on normal difficulty. Similarly, PVP events should not be cancelled because some PVEers don’t like PVP.

As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, you can pre-load MYM quests, complete them in dead campaigns before the event when there’s no one around (see: no CP campaign) and turn them in during the event without ever having to encounter another player at a quest objective. Heck, even I am pre-loading the quests, and I’m a PVPer! I’d much rather spend my time earning double AP during the event, not doing quests.

This really isn’t difficult to do. I frankly think it’s extremely toxic of anyone who is anti-PVP to insist every year that this event shouldn’t exist — especially after all the helpful advice that has been given. I could understand getting upset if the event required you to kill another player to get event tickets, but that’s obviously not how it works. These are quick, painfully easy quests that can be done in advance in dead campaigns where your chances of running into another player are infinitesimally small.

The pre-loading method only works if you know about it, if you have enough alts and if you can avoid people who actively hunt pre-loaders down (yes they are thing). Other than that sure, that's an option and I use it myself in case I'll have to be offline for some days, but it's telling of how sorry the state of PvP is. I bet there are gonna be people, like many other times, who'd rather skip the event. Especially since not much seems to have been fixed in the last couple of years (such was the length of the break I took and I didn't stay up to date, but I'm seeing "more of the same").

I do have to agree --- the very fact that we NEED to create guides and offer advice to people on how to do an event without doing the core part of that event, screams that there are issues with that activity. I tend to just use low level alts with things like steed mundus, cp's for mount speed and stamina, and making sure I have continuous attack, so that I can get scouts done in a reasonable time frame ---

For in city, if I feel I need those tickets, I go with a vampire NB built with as much stealth as I can, and sneak around.....
Most of them, I can finish without ever being seen.... and I tend towards the arena one, as I can, if I feel like waiting for respawn times, do it without ever leaving the platform......

However, again, the fact that we are creating strategies, rather than just having fun at the event, shows how UNFUN the PVP has become for a VERY large part of the population......

Auldwulfe

Vulkunne · February 20

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

No, it is not "the same" for PvP, unless you compare that to Trials, which some of us will never do. I can't even do some group dungeons.

Having the eye-finger coordination is much harder for some. Doable enough for much PvE content, but impossible when going against players that can take a full massive hit and get 0 damage, then 1-shot me. I am not in proper PvP gear, but really?

Getting ganked 5 times in a row (last time I tried during an event) killed the idea of trying to run some of the quests.

Those of you who love ganking need to learn that the ganked will stop being your targets when it is useless to even try.

It would be much better if I played against others with my skill, but nothing enforces that now, something many here miss.

It’s absolutely true that different people struggle with content that others find easy in this game. But that doesn’t mean an entire event should not exist... You wouldn’t cancel dungeon events because some people struggle to complete dungeons on normal difficulty. Similarly, PVP events should not be cancelled because some PVEers don’t like PVP.

As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, you can pre-load MYM quests, complete them in dead campaigns before the event when there’s no one around (see: no CP campaign) and turn them in during the event without ever having to encounter another player at a quest objective. Heck, even I am pre-loading the quests, and I’m a PVPer! I’d much rather spend my time earning double AP during the event, not doing quests.

This really isn’t difficult to do. I frankly think it’s extremely toxic of anyone who is anti-PVP to insist every year that this event shouldn’t exist — especially after all the helpful advice that has been given. I could understand getting upset if the event required you to kill another player to get event tickets, but that’s obviously not how it works. These are quick, painfully easy quests that can be done in advance in dead campaigns where your chances of running into another player are infinitesimally small.

The pre-loading method only works if you know about it, if you have enough alts and if you can avoid people who actively hunt pre-loaders down (yes they are thing). Other than that sure, that's an option and I use it myself in case I'll have to be offline for some days, but it's telling of how sorry the state of PvP is. I bet there are gonna be people, like many other times, who'd rather skip the event. Especially since not much seems to have been fixed in the last couple of years (such was the length of the break I took and I didn't stay up to date, but I'm seeing "more of the same").

I do have to agree --- the very fact that we NEED to create guides and offer advice to people on how to do an event without doing the core part of that event, screams that there are issues with that activity. I tend to just use low level alts with things like steed mundus, cp's for mount speed and stamina, and making sure I have continuous attack, so that I can get scouts done in a reasonable time frame ---

For in city, if I feel I need those tickets, I go with a vampire NB built with as much stealth as I can, and sneak around.....
Most of them, I can finish without ever being seen.... and I tend towards the arena one, as I can, if I feel like waiting for respawn times, do it without ever leaving the platform......

However, again, the fact that we are creating strategies, rather than just having fun at the event, shows how UNFUN the PVP has become for a VERY large part of the population......

Auldwulfe

To me that is fun... creating strategies. That's part of the fun of it and dare I say, part of the heart of it. The only really bad thing as I see it is the login wait times and lag.

I mean... would ya really want to be running around in places like Imperial City without a plan?

sharquez · February 20

ESO wouldn't be fun by itself it if was just a straight up-and-down stat check, Creative solutions are part of the fun.