4 second effect on a 6 second delayed burst, what happened to standardizing timers?

xylena_lazarow · February 12

Now Templars are further nerfed by needing redundant sources of Minor Breach to line up their PvP burst. Why?

I mentioned Necro buff timers in another comment. The armor is 20 seconds, the ghost is 16 or 8 seconds, the tether is 12 seconds. Why?

Even the "easy" DK has to try to line up 15 second Flames and 24 second dots with weapon skills that last 10 or 20 seconds. Why?

MashmalloMan · February 12

This isn't a nerf, losing 2 out of 6 seconds of minor breach for everything else you gain is 100% worth it.

Sundered is a strong status effect now, not just damage it deals which has doubled, but the debuff for 3k pen and now the +100 damage added this patch.
Based on their statements, Sundered applies at the beginning and the end, so 2 guaranteed ticks of damage. It's effectively buffing the burst this skill deals.

Edit: After testing it, It's not a nerf or a buff, more neutral.. the sundered bonus doesn't work instantly on the first or last tick, so POTL now has 3k less pen for both damage instances replaced with Sundered instead.

JerBearESO · February 12

Yeah the effect should become a 4 second delay which meets its damage requirement a bit faster, though with sundered applying that may count towards it so maybe it already does a bit.

But this awkward 2s window of bleh...? Whaaaaa..... just make the timing match up

Panderbander · February 12

I like to imagine them doing this just to mess with people. Here are some more ideas on how to accomplish this:

- Make a set of neat furnishing pieces that are clearly meant to go together (like stackable totes) and then make their sizes just a few pixels off from each other.
- Make one shoulder piece of each style set a tiny bit larger than the other. Not so much as to look like it's an artistic choice, but just enough to look like it was unintentional.
- Add a slight left tilt to the direction players run so even if you're not looking left you still slowly make a large circle... that doesn't meet up with the point where it started.
- Raise all the furniture in a zone up by 7 cm. Exactly 7 cm.
- Randomly add additional spacing between words in quest text, and sometimes in the middle of words just to keep people on their toes.

I think these things will do a lot to distract from a 6 second ability applying a 4 second debuff!

MashmalloMan · February 12

JerBearESO wrote: »

Yeah the effect should become a 4 second delay which meets its damage requirement a bit faster, though with sundered applying that may count towards it so maybe it already does a bit.

But this awkward 2s window of bleh...? Whaaaaa..... just make the timing match up

Fair enough, but I don't think they were looking to rock the boat in a week 3 patch of PTS. I could see this being a possible long term change if they spend a patch on Templar's the way they focused on Sorc this patch.

The Sundered effect was tacked on last minute because they focused on Status Effect changes as whole this patch. Skills like POTL and Snipe gave minor breach instead of Sundered which does the same thing without damage, so this is a necessary buff bringing old skill designs into modern ESO.

Panderbander · February 12

MashmalloMan wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

Yeah the effect should become a 4 second delay which meets its damage requirement a bit faster, though with sundered applying that may count towards it so maybe it already does a bit.

But this awkward 2s window of bleh...? Whaaaaa..... just make the timing match up

Fair enough, but I don't think they were looking to rock the boat in a week 3 patch of PTS. I could see this being a possible long term change if they spend a patch on Templar's the way they focused on Sorc this patch.

The Sundered effect was tacked on last minute because they focused on Status Effect changes as whole this patch. Skills like POTL and Snipe gave minor breach instead of Sundered which does the same thing without damage, so this is a necessary buff bringing old skill designs into modern ESO.

I wouldn't be so sure that this is a buff. By changing a named debuff into its status effect counterpart you are now precluding it from proccing sets or abilities. For instance, the Ravager set does not proc off Sundered anymore, but if you applied minor breach directly it would. (I'm not saying this was a common use of the effect, I'm just making an example)

Cast_El · February 12

MashmalloMan wrote: »

This isn't a nerf, losing 2 out of 6 seconds of minor breach for everything else you gain is 100% worth it.
Sundered is a strong status effect now, not just damage it deals which has doubled, but the debuff for 3k pen and now the +100 damage added this patch.

Based on their statements, Sundered applies at the beginning and the end, so 2 guaranteed ticks of damage. It's effectively buffing the burst this skill deals.

Agree. A small buff is always welcome when we know how bad are templar.
100spell damage=136 spell damage for templar (with Balanced Warrior passive, minor and major sorcery)

MashmalloMan · February 12

Panderbander wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

Yeah the effect should become a 4 second delay which meets its damage requirement a bit faster, though with sundered applying that may count towards it so maybe it already does a bit.

But this awkward 2s window of bleh...? Whaaaaa..... just make the timing match up

Fair enough, but I don't think they were looking to rock the boat in a week 3 patch of PTS. I could see this being a possible long term change if they spend a patch on Templar's the way they focused on Sorc this patch.

The Sundered effect was tacked on last minute because they focused on Status Effect changes as whole this patch. Skills like POTL and Snipe gave minor breach instead of Sundered which does the same thing without damage, so this is a necessary buff bringing old skill designs into modern ESO.

I wouldn't be so sure that this is a buff. By changing a named debuff into its status effect counterpart you are now precluding it from proccing sets or abilities. For instance, the Ravager set does not proc off Sundered anymore, but if you applied minor breach directly it would. (I'm not saying this was a common use of the effect, I'm just making an example)

Sure, but in most cases, at least at base value, the skill was buffed.

Sets aren't permanent, they come and go, they fall in and out of meta's, they get buffed or nerfed, Ravager hasn't been meta for 5+ years if I'm guessing. I would never want them to not buff a skill just because a set has a specific interaction with a skill. The skills should be balanced around each other.

Although, since we're on the topic.. adding 2 ticks to a skill that already deals 2 ticks is a buff for sets like Dragon's Appetite or MA 2H. With Jabs as a multi hit spammable and burning light.. I bet damage done bonuses from sets or DK's stagger feel good for Templar.

This is assuming damage done bonuses effect status effects and burning light. I'm personally not sure, haven't tested it.

Edit: They do. MA 2H buffs Burning Light and Sundered.

Panderbander · February 12

True, if you're not using a set that procs off named debuffs or armor reduction then you'll maybe see a slight buff but if you were using a set like Wretched Vitality you can no longer use PotL to proc the minor part of the recoveries offered by the set. That set, I know, is a very commonly used set on Plar, and could theoretically have a negative impact on its effectiveness.

My own personal preference would be to have abilities apply the actual minor debuff to have that extra flexibility than apply the status effect considering the relative weakness of the damage of effects like Sundered even after the buff.

MashmalloMan · February 12

Panderbander wrote: »

True, if you're not using a set that procs off named debuffs or armor reduction then you'll maybe see a slight buff but if you were using a set like Wretched Vitality you can no longer use PotL to proc the minor part of the recoveries offered by the set. That set, I know, is a very commonly used set on Plar, and could theoretically have a negative impact on its effectiveness.

My own personal preference would be to have abilities apply the actual minor debuff to have that extra flexibility than apply the status effect considering the relative weakness of the damage of effects like Sundered even after the buff.

Wouldn't you get the minor portion from a set like Wretched from Spear Wall passives 6s of minor protection anyway?

VinnyGambini · February 12

This is the worst buff I've seen since I play eso.

xylena_lazarow · February 12

MashmalloMan wrote: »

This isn't a nerf, losing 2 out of 6 seconds of minor breach for everything else you gain is 100% worth it.

Maybe, but those 2 seconds are right when you usually want to drop your burst, losing 3k pen from that hurts.

I'm probably still just salty over the u35 "we're gonna standardize timers" and all they did was ruin PvP class dots.

MashmalloMan · February 12

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

This isn't a nerf, losing 2 out of 6 seconds of minor breach for everything else you gain is 100% worth it.

Maybe, but those 2 seconds are right when you usually want to drop your burst, losing 3k pen from that hurts.

I'm probably still just salty over the u35 "we're gonna standardize timers" and all they did was ruin PvP class dots.

Trust, I know how you feel. Still wondering why Molten Armaments, Channeled Acceleration, and Lotus Flower were changed to 60s long, but Critical Surge is an awkward 33 seconds despite being functionally similar to all 3 of the above skills.

Or why it's so hard for them to understand how to fix no pet sorc, when they're the one's who broke them in the first place and then overbuffed Daedric Prey so hard it's the only right way to play. It's not rocket science.

xylena_lazarow · February 12

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Or why it's so hard for them to understand how to fix no pet sorc, when they're the one's who broke them in the first place and then overbuffed Daedric Prey so hard it's the only right way to play. It's not rocket science.

Meanwhile all PvP Sorc really needed was Major Savagery on a class skill, instead we get a million other changes nobody needed, wanted, or asked for. Also what's up with taking away 8% max hp from non-pet Sorc? Another lol why...

MashmalloMan · February 12

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Or why it's so hard for them to understand how to fix no pet sorc, when they're the one's who broke them in the first place and then overbuffed Daedric Prey so hard it's the only right way to play. It's not rocket science.

Meanwhile all PvP Sorc really needed was Major Savagery on a class skill, instead we get a million other changes nobody needed, wanted, or asked for. Also what's up with taking away 8% max hp from non-pet Sorc? Another lol why...

Pretty much.

I support the passive change though, mag/stam is flexible, hp is not. If you want more hp in pvp, you can just adjust your characters 64 points.

For pve, you can't convert that extra HP in any way, so it was a dead passive for damage dealers.

Giving innate mag scaling also helps close a big gap mag sorcs had by stacking max mag seeing as max mag scales much worse than damage bonuses from stats, while being lesser in quality from the sets that are available. Crafty Alfiq for example is much less potent than the numerous Weapon/Spell Damage sets available... but I mean, why do shields scale from max mag in the first place? Resto shield scales from damage/resources. Sad to see them double down on this.

It won't effect stam sorc in any way other than giving them a tiny bit more wiggle room for their mag skills which is decent. You'll still aim for 30-35k hp and 23-26k stam.

xylena_lazarow · February 12

MashmalloMan wrote: »

For pve, you can't convert that extra HP in any way, so it was a dead passive for damage dealers... It won't effect stam sorc in anyway other than giving them a tiny bit more wiggle room for their mag skills which is decent. You'll still aim for 30-35k hp and 23-26k stam.

Someone told me the change is a nerf to PvE Sorc tanks?

The margins for surviving PvP bursts are pretty narrow in that 30-35k hp range depending on several other variables, so losing 8% max hp is definitely something you'll feel, and potentially need to adjust your build for. Obviously not unmanageable, but still a weird thing to nerf, and an even weirder way to go about nerfing it.

MashmalloMan · February 12

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

For pve, you can't convert that extra HP in any way, so it was a dead passive for damage dealers... It won't effect stam sorc in anyway other than giving them a tiny bit more wiggle room for their mag skills which is decent. You'll still aim for 30-35k hp and 23-26k stam.

Someone told me the change is a nerf to PvE Sorc tanks?

The margins for surviving PvP bursts are pretty narrow in that 30-35k hp range depending on several other variables, so losing 8% max hp is definitely something you'll feel, and potentially need to adjust your build for. Obviously not unmanageable, but still a weird thing to nerf, and an even weirder way to go about nerfing it.

My point is, if you had 35k hp and 24k stam before, your 24k stam is going to become 26k, the 35k hp is going to become 33k. You can easily just swap the stats on your characters 64 points to get a similar balance you had before, the lost 8% HP is replaced with 10% mag/stam. The stat difference will be negligible at best for common Stam Sorcs builds. Obviously a HP stacking Sorc is gonna feel the change without a pet, but their a bit less common and rather new to the game.

Added bonus, you get more of your off resource, my 15k mag will become 16-17k.

For pve dps, you can't convert the original 8% HP you had before since everyone already goes 100% into their main resource as 64/64 points. It was a dead passive. The new setup is fexible enough for every build...

...
..

Except tank yeah lol.. If you were getting the 8% HP from Bound Aegis or Hardened Ward before, you can't now. You need to add in Clanfear for the 2 slots or a set like Maw, Engine Guardian, Chokethorn, or Shadowrend. Kinda sucks, but it does bump up to 10% and the other roles get a lot of positives in place of this 1 negative.

Iuppiterr · February 12

So to get back into the topic: I tested a lil bit and you do better numbers on targets where ur not ther person who has to bing minor breach ot the table but the numbers are kinda the same when you dont have this debuff provided from someone else and on top of that you lose 2 seconds (the most notably seconds) of minor breach in a pvp burst combo. God bless did they nerf pvp templar they got out of crontrol with doing 5K damage with a full combo proc of potl

Turtle_Bot · February 13

Seems to me the issue is that it procs on cast and at the end, leaving that downtime and not guaranteeing the sundered procs get counted into the copied damage.

Why not change it to proc sundered on cast and again after 4 seconds.

This keeps the status effect (and its bonuses) up for the full 6s duration of PotL (+2 additional seconds after), which allows it to have minor breach + 100 weapon/spell damage for when the ability actually procs its copied damage. This would also guarantee minimum of 1 proc of sundered is counted towards PotL copied damage.

Also seems like it would be a super simple change to make, since it should just be reducing the delay timer between the procs of sundered from 6 seconds to 4 seconds. Or involves removing the second proc of sunder (if it's triggered off dealing damage with PotL) and adding a repeat proc once clause with a delay that repeats the sundered proc 1 time after 4 seconds (this code already exists in the game with ele sus and would only need some some minor number tweaks to set the delay to 4 seconds instead of 7.5s and repeat only once, should only be like an hour of work max for this change).

TechMaybeHic · February 13

A shift, maybe. Maybe even more total damage. But the problem with templar is low burst which is needed in pvp, and missing the penetration at the actual burst hurts effectiveness even more.

xylena_lazarow · February 13

MashmalloMan wrote: »

My point is

I do understand you can get back similar stats by moving some attributes around, but like, why does pet Sorc get the buff while non-pet Sorc doesn't? That makes no sense, aren't we supposed to be getting rid of the pet divide?

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Why not change it to proc sundered on cast and again after 4 seconds

Makes too much sense.

SirLeeMinion · February 13

Panderbander wrote: »

I like to imagine them doing this just to mess with people. Here are some more ideas on how to accomplish this ...

All of these are excellent suggestions. Let us know if you get a job offer.

Hottytotz · February 14

Yet another change I dont get. The only delayed burst skill in the game you can really screw up if you dont dps non-stop. Also we dont get minor breach for the actual damage pop? What?

Billium813 · February 14

It just seems sooo bizarre to me that ZOS is making this change to Power of the Light, and to Minor Breach. They are taking a very clean Minor Breach Skill debuff, with a duration that can be controlled to match the Skill, and are instead burying this effect inside a status effect?!? I could totally see ZOS making the exact opposite change in PTS patch notes...

Developer Comments:

We are cleaning up status effects as they apply debuffs since status effects do not proc procs on applying their debuffs and status effect debuff durations are not cleanly matching the design of the Skills that are applying them.
...
Instead of applying guaranteed Sunder, we are adding Minor Breach, for the entire duration of the Skill, back to the Skill.

In the past, ZOS would look at this Power of the Light, applying two Sunder effects to get two 4 second windows of Minor Breach, on a 6 second duration Skill, and would clean this implementation up.

I'm just really baffled by this whole design.

At this point, can we just remove Minor Breach from Sunder and just put Minor Breach on more Skills where ZOS wants it to proc? The only reason to have Status Effects is to introduce RNG. Making that RNG guaranteed totally circumvents the WHOLE POINT OF STATUS EFFECT DESIGN! ZOS, you're muddying the water and it doesn't make sense. If you're gonna do Status Effects with percentage chance of applying, THEN DO THAT! Feels like too many cooks in the kitchen here.

Galeriano · February 15

Dekrypted wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

This is the worst buff I've seen since I play eso.

That's because its not a buff. It's just a "shift in the gameplay" quoting those who told me the class didn't get nerfed

PvE wise it's definietly a buff, PvP wise it depends.

Tyrant_Tim · February 15

Galeriano wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

This is the worst buff I've seen since I play eso.

That's because its not a buff. It's just a "shift in the gameplay" quoting those who told me the class didn't get nerfed

PvE wise it's definietly a buff, PvP wise it depends.

Yeah, it depends on whether or not you have an Arcanist or Warden in group applying it, or whether you have someone running Pierce Armor.

Every other scenario is a flat out nerf in PvP. Solo/Small Scale Templar got nerfed in PvP for Templar DDs to get more power when no matter how much power they get, they will never rival the cleave of Arcanist. It’s pointless.

Galeriano · February 15

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

This is the worst buff I've seen since I play eso.

That's because its not a buff. It's just a "shift in the gameplay" quoting those who told me the class didn't get nerfed

PvE wise it's definietly a buff, PvP wise it depends.

Yeah, it depends on whether or not you have an Arcanist or Warden in group applying it, or whether you have someone running Pierce Armor.

Every other scenario is a flat out nerf in PvP. Solo/Small Scale Templar got nerfed in PvP for Templar DDs to get more power when no matter how much power they get, they will never rival the cleave of Arcanist. It’s pointless.

There is more options for minor breach to be active on the enemy. For example in next patch due to changes to some status effects certain setups may benefit from using serpent's disdian set which makes all status effects last for 20 seconds.

TechMaybeHic · March 6

They can do this change, but can we get Major breech on the base ability? The burst is already weaker and hard to fill. Just give it that baseline so it's worth a slot

xylena_lazarow · March 6

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

They can do this change, but can we get Major breech on the base ability? The burst is already weaker and hard to fill. Just give it that baseline so it's worth a slot

More sources of class Major Breach would be amazing, it would diversify the meta without needing to nerf Ele Sus.

TechMaybeHic · March 6

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

They can do this change, but can we get Major breech on the base ability? The burst is already weaker and hard to fill. Just give it that baseline so it's worth a slot

More sources of class Major Breach would be amazing, it would diversify the meta without needing to nerf Ele Sus.

Lol that's what I was looking at with my templar for bar space. There's some ok things, even great things with living dark and RO; but having a great spammable used to make up for unreliable burst (enen though it was too big when it hit right). With neither, it's hard to secure kills even with that execute short of pressure from others or procs these days

Billium813 · March 6

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

They can do this change, but can we get Major breech on the base ability? The burst is already weaker and hard to fill. Just give it that baseline so it's worth a slot

More sources of class Major Breach would be amazing, it would diversify the meta without needing to nerf Ele Sus.

Lol that's what I was looking at with my templar for bar space. There's some ok things, even great things with living dark and RO; but having a great spammable used to make up for unreliable burst (enen though it was too big when it hit right). With neither, it's hard to secure kills even with that execute short of pressure from others or procs these days

It's true. More often then not, I'm not able to kill them, but they are not able to kill me either. We spend 5 minutes dueling, only to eventually stop and part ways. It's only when other players show up that the situation changes, for good or bad.

I'm really not a fan of this change to PotL. It sucks that it no long procs Snake in the Stars. Now, I guess I HAVE to use Dark Flare? That's not a very good burst skill though. It's just a bad change for no upside at all.