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If you're gonna nerf Arcanist DPS...
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MidniteOwl1913✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭aspergalas4 wrote: »This whole philosophy of nerfing what's strong just makes the game more dull even when balance is achieved in the end, they really should just buff everything else across the board. Make every class and spell feel powerful when we are playing it, instead of every class feeling equally meh.
They don't and won't buff everything, after U35 I don't know why anyone could think they would. They are more worried about power creep (for reasons that aren't exactly clear) than players being happy. Sad but true...
PS5/NA3 -
MidniteOwl1913✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »[snip]I get learning to weave is hard. I worked hours and hours on a training dummy to get my dps on par for vet and HM trials.
To have a class just be able to one bar and spam 2 or 3 skills and still be able to beat out the top DPS of any other class is ridiculous. They can tank, heal and do top damage all at the same time. Other classes sit out of trials because it has to be an arcanist or nothing for many slots.
Yes I have an arcanist, and I see the damage they can do. Just like Necro before them, the newness has worn off and its time for an adjustment to put them on par with other classes.
Thank you for proving the point I have been trying to make.
But regarding "learning rotation". Not everyone has the luxury of bar swapping due to latancy/high ping which is completely (in my case) out of my control. This is where arcanist and oakensoul help players like myself enjoy the same content we pay for that you get to enjoy.
but for some reason, some people in this community just cant handle players doing just as well with simpler builds/rotations.
I will never understand this.
[edited to remove quote]
Neither will I. The "no fair!" defense always seems a little childish to me. It's a game you should do something because you enjoy it. If you don't enjoy practicing to get better at LA's then why do it? If you are just after higher DPS and there is an easier way why not use it? And it's not just I don't want to use it I don't want *you* to use it either. It makes no sense to me.
PS5/NA3 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
Zero evidence for beam overperforming? Yeah sure if by zero evidence You mean whole ESO logs website.
And magicka arcanist is doing ok.
i suggest you scroll up and read the fights. Your assertions are incorrect.
If it was the beam, as you suggest, magicka would be performing equally as well, but it does not (and magicka scales HIGHER with base attacks than stamina).
So....it can't be the beam now can it?
I did scrolls up. All data there proves what I said. Arcanist wins in single tartget, AoE, boss fights, trash fights and basically in almost everything. With all respect to @spartaxoxo he made some mistakes and wrong assumptions in his comparision.
Your assumption that if beam is strong than both types of arcanist would perform equally is completly wrong. It's like saying that magsorc should be stronger than stam because crystal frag and pets cost magicka. No, mag beam does not scale higher than stamina beam. I linked You a website with all scaling formulas and You still repeat the same incorrect informations.Edited by Galeriano on February 12, 2024 10:05PM2 -
Brakkish✭✭✭✭From a PVPrs perspective who only plays tanks and healers, I'm biased for sure but have to say; whenever I hear of damage nerfs I giggle inside with glee. My PVP Tanks get a little more powerful every time I hear the nerfbat showed up and there's even less dps to mitigate.
CP2332 +3100 hrs spent in BGs. US PS5 - Nine PVP Tanks - toons named variations of "Combat Medic" I like long walks on the beach. What's PVE? https://www.youtube.com/brakkish1 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Neither of us have any interest in stamina in ESO. The only stamina toon I have is my farmer and that is because there are no magicka stealth sets that work for his stealth sprinting build.
https://eso-sets.com/set/stormweavers-cavort
Need ring of wild hunt for the build. so no
You don't. You can reach speed cap without it.1 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
Which data excatly? Because I can provide You with a data that suggest something completly else. Actually people did it in this thread already.
Scroll up, and no, the date the other person supplied showcases that if you include mobs, then arcanist pulls ahead....but if you nerf fatecarver not only does it lose on trash but also the boss fight.
ITs a double whammy.
And yet, magicka....still not performing as well as half the builds in game. Its literally middle of the road, adn does not need a nerf.
Fatecarver is not the issue. Lets word this a different way. Nerfing Fatecarver is NOT THE SOLUTION.
If You nerf fatecarver, arcanist can switch to a single target rotation based around runeblades and tentacular dread which pulls basically the same single target DPS as beam rotation with lower AoE making arcanist more along the lines of other classes. I said it like 5 times already but You seem to be deliberately avoiding that information because You just want that sweet beam to be overperforming.
People who play mag arcanists atm are doing it mainly for fun or RP reasons. Barely anyone is picking it up unironically to pull high numbers because they can just pick stam arcanist, do the same and get more DPS which is basically what is happening for lots of classes. That results with mag arcanist being underepresented in ESO Logs data. There is usuallt over 25k logs for stam arcanist and less than 1k logs for mag. That makes data for mag arcanist unreliable since we can't know for certain how it would perform in hands of larger sample of skilled players. Ironically opposite is happening to templars which is partially why they are that high in charts.Edited by Galeriano on February 12, 2024 10:19PM1 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭
No, I have not ignored it. Its not ranged, heck fatecarver is barely ranged. I dont play melee classes.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
Which data excatly? Because I can provide You with a data that suggest something completly else. Actually people did it in this thread already.
Scroll up, and no, the date the other person supplied showcases that if you include mobs, then arcanist pulls ahead....but if you nerf fatecarver not only does it lose on trash but also the boss fight.
ITs a double whammy.
And yet, magicka....still not performing as well as half the builds in game. Its literally middle of the road, adn does not need a nerf.
Fatecarver is not the issue. Lets word this a different way. Nerfing Fatecarver is NOT THE SOLUTION.
If You nerf fatecarver, arcanist can switch to a single target rotation based around runeblades and tentacular dread which pulls basically the same single target DPS as beam rotation with lower AoE making arcanist more along the lines of other classes. I said it like 5 times already but You seem to be deliberately avoiding that information because You just want that sweet beam to be overperforming.
"𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
PC/NA1 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
No, I have not ignored it. Its not ranged, heck fatecarver is barely ranged. I dont play melee classes.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
Which data excatly? Because I can provide You with a data that suggest something completly else. Actually people did it in this thread already.
Scroll up, and no, the date the other person supplied showcases that if you include mobs, then arcanist pulls ahead....but if you nerf fatecarver not only does it lose on trash but also the boss fight.
ITs a double whammy.
And yet, magicka....still not performing as well as half the builds in game. Its literally middle of the road, adn does not need a nerf.
Fatecarver is not the issue. Lets word this a different way. Nerfing Fatecarver is NOT THE SOLUTION.
If You nerf fatecarver, arcanist can switch to a single target rotation based around runeblades and tentacular dread which pulls basically the same single target DPS as beam rotation with lower AoE making arcanist more along the lines of other classes. I said it like 5 times already but You seem to be deliberately avoiding that information because You just want that sweet beam to be overperforming.
It's ranged. General rule is that abilities with distance higher than 7 meters are considred as ranged attacks. It's not fully ranged but still a ranged ability. And on mag build to maximize DPS You usually want to use elemental blockade which leaves You almost at the Tentacular Dread reach distance anyway. Also it's starting to become a bit silly. Basically Your opinion seem to be that anything You like and preffer to use cannot be touched and changed in any shape or form no matter what consequences it will bring to game balance. We can't have a discussion about game balance if You don't care about game balance in the first place.Edited by Galeriano on February 12, 2024 11:41PM4 -
KS_Amt38✭✭✭The Arcanist class is out of scope the most OP class in the ten year history of ESO. And that what makes this class that OP is just the Fatecarver Beam. This skill is beyond broken and have to be reworked very hard or even completely removed from the game.
Just a quick example is the Reef Guardian Fight. The best DPS Class is as follows:
Arcanist 311k
DK 179 k
Templar 175
Necro 171 k
Sorc 154 k
Warden 82 k
Nightblade 70 k
If thats not OP i dont know what is... the 7% nerf wont solve the problem a bit.
Who dont want to play a class with 100% AoE Damage Skills, with even two AoE spammables which does 100% damage to all enemies in front of you (unlike templar jabs). Its a no brainer and kills every aspect of a Challenge and class perfection in the game.2 -
merpins✭✭✭✭✭
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1. Some classes are more geared to fight certain fights. This causes them to deal significantly more damage than other classes, just because a fight is easier on said class. This happens in every mmo/game that has class choice.
2. Oh boy, the best AOE class in the game does significantly more damage against a boss with a ton of ads. I wonder why? The answer is a combination of that and Azureblight.
If you look at the damage numbers across the board, Arcanist is only performing better by a very small amount. Its AOE is super good and could be nerfed, but I think a small or medium nerf there and a more sizable buff to the AOE potential of other classes that specialize in that is more called for.Edited by merpins on February 13, 2024 1:43AM4 -
Shagreth✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am sick and tired of their design philosophy, I picked Arcanist as my main knowing all too well that it's going to get nerfed eventually, it was only a matter of time.
They are not brave with their changes, it's all too predictable. In other games every expansion gives you new tools, abilities etc. etc. in ESO they just take your power away. @ZOS_Kevin please reconsider the way you approach balance.6 -
RetPing✭✭✭✭✭MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »aspergalas4 wrote: »This whole philosophy of nerfing what's strong just makes the game more dull even when balance is achieved in the end, they really should just buff everything else across the board. Make every class and spell feel powerful when we are playing it, instead of every class feeling equally meh.
They don't and won't buff everything, after U35 I don't know why anyone could think they would. They are more worried about power creep (for reasons that aren't exactly clear) than players being happy. Sad but true...
Reason are more then clear, game is overbloated with DPS.
I'm just an average player manning a Warden as DPS, yesterday I've done a DLC dungeon in HM, two dps and one healer with no problems.
There is no need anymore to learn most mechanics, just stack and burn everything.
Game has become so easy it's a boring joke.2 -
KS_Amt38✭✭✭
We have 30 DLC Trial Bosses, there are only 3 fights in which you dont benefit from massive AoE Damage.
These are:
- Archustodian in vHoF
- Zhajassa in vMoL
- Yolnakhrin fight in vSS
Arcanist is always on top in that fights and even on single target boss dmg on top.
Other than that on 90% of all the Trials the Arcanist is benefitting from the massive AoE Damage. While others have to focus ads, Arcanist can just cleave everything.1 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am sick and tired of their design philosophy, I picked Arcanist as my main knowing all too well that it's going to get nerfed eventually, it was only a matter of time.
They are not brave with their changes, it's all too predictable. In other games every expansion gives you new tools, abilities etc. etc. in ESO they just take your power away. @ZOS_Kevin please reconsider the way you approach balance.
Our power is increasing every year. They give us new tools like mythics, skills lines, new more powerfull sets, beneficial balance changes that increase our performance etc. It's obvious they need to also take something away because if not, today we would be just melting everything on our way.
Look at DPS numbers from few years ago and compare it to today's standards. It really doesn't look like we are getting nerfed that much. Average person with very simplistic rotation can do more DPS today than top parsing player could do couple of years ago. We are in continous steady increase of power creep.
People just like to complain when nerfs happen and are silent when buffs are occuring. LIke for example we are getting another buff to our power creep in next patch with status effect changes. Is there as many forum posts about it gloryfying it as it would be complaints if some nerf would happen?Edited by Galeriano on February 13, 2024 2:49PM2 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭
1. Some classes are more geared to fight certain fights. This causes them to deal significantly more damage than other classes, just because a fight is easier on said class. This happens in every mmo/game that has class choice.
2. Oh boy, the best AOE class in the game does significantly more damage against a boss with a ton of ads. I wonder why? The answer is a combination of that and Azureblight.
If you look at the damage numbers across the board, Arcanist is only performing better by a very small amount. Its AOE is super good and could be nerfed, but I think a small or medium nerf there and a more sizable buff to the AOE potential of other classes that specialize in that is more called for.
1. Arcanist is best geared for almost every fight in the game. Almost every fight is easier on arcanist.
2. Majority of trials boss fights in ESO have some passive AoE and in majority of those that don't arcanist is still on top. Blaming arcanist's strenght on azureblight is kinda incorrect. Every class can do lots of DPS with azureblight, thing is that arcanist will usually do the most DPS anyway so since usually 2-3 DDs in a group will be using it obviously first choice will be arcanist. If arcanist wouldn't be a meta class, azureblight would still be a meta set in trials.
If You look at the damage numbers accros the board arcanist is dominating. And because he is dominating in damage numbers he is also dominating in popularity. Why would anyone even play regular DD on a different class if arcanist just do everything better?0 -
Galiferno✭✭✭✭✭My guild does 0 portal vCR+3 runs and the logs speak for themselves. Massive arcanist dps(about 125k average) and beam, a single skill, makes up around 50% of that.0 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
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Two forum accounts or strong coincidence between names?
Also, it would be prudent to stress "stamina Arcanist", because Magicka Arcanists are middle of the road.
Edited by Pixiepumpkin on February 13, 2024 10:34PM"𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
PC/NA3 -
merpins✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭My guild does 0 portal vCR+3 runs and the logs speak for themselves. Massive arcanist dps(about 125k average) and beam, a single skill, makes up around 50% of that.
That's the point of the beam. It makes up most of your damage. If it didn't, with how long it is cast for and how it needs crux to be good and how if you get interrupted it can do 0 damage, it would be a dead skill no one uses.3 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Okay I'll try to form an opinion based on the data from PC and not just what I personally experience in console, which admittedly doesn't give me a data driven view or one that does a ton of vet trials content. This is pulled from eso logs website. As I have never used this website, I may have errors.
ParsesRanking for Top 10 Parses
Winner: Stam Sorc with 7 spots
Runner-Up: Stam Arc with 2 spots
Ranking for Top 100 Parses
Top 3 parses:
Stam Sorc: 144k
Mag Arc: 137k
Stam Sorc: 131k
Best Time: 2 minutes 25 seconds
Bottom 3 Parses in Top 100
Mag Cro 101k
Mag Plar 101k
Stam DK 101k
Worst Time: 3 Minutes 27 seconds
Time Difference between Best and Worst: 1 minute 2 seconds
Parses in General:
Stam Sorc Median: 88.54
Stam Arc Median: 83.5
Stam Plar Median: 83.37
Stam Den Median: 77.12
Mag Blade Median: 73.86
Mag Plar Median 73.5
Mag Sorc Median: 72.29
Stam DK Median: 70.68
Mag Arc Median: 70.09
Stam Blade Median: 67.85
Mag DK Median: 67.72
Mag Cro Median: 67.38
Mag Den Median: 66.85
Stam Cro Median: 63.15
Max Parses
Winner: Stam Sorc: 102.57
Runner-Up: Mag Arc: 98.12
Personal Conclusion:
The best class at the Target Dummy: Stamina Sorceror.
Stam Sorc dominated the top 10 and also had the best Median score. The median score is how most players are going to interact with the class, and at the median the difference between the top 5 classes is not crazy unless looking at Mag classes overall compared to stam classes. At that point, stam took 4/5 of the top 5 spots. And the 5th spot, the only mag class, is also the only one that doesn't round to at or above 80k. Ideally, all classes would be at 70k as that's the minimum number needed to feel decent in vet trials. 5 setups, including the entire Necromancer class, fail to meet that minimum standard, indicating that buffs are needed to underperforming classes. I remain unconvinced that any of the top classes are in need of nerfs based on this as while the minimum performance determines a player's ability to enter content, top performance on a dummy does not always translate top performance in dungeons or trials.
TrialsI am going to ignore the little dots and instead look at the max on the bar. I am doing this because I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) that's based on the highest individual parse noted, while the max bar is more so an aggregate score. If that is indeed the case, it should be excluded as too low a sample size. If I'm correct, then even the person who did it, it might be a personal best for them and not typical of their performance.
Sanity's Edge:
Median for Top 5 dps
Stam Arc: 54.89
Mag DK 54.17
Stam Plar: 54.50
Mag Plar 53.32
Mag Arc: 52.54
Winner: Stam Arc
Runner-Up: Mag Plar (by a hair)
Conclusion: The median score for the top 5 dps classes are all fairly close to one another. They are performing very closely. The top scores are fairly large in difference. Arcanist is heavily favored to be brought into the trials, which could be a factor in this discrepancy. But the difference in their performance at the Median does not justify such heavy favoring. The Median performance is a good class performance indicator as it's the least effected by perceptions of the top guilds and exceptionally talented individuals. Also, anyone able to do vet sanity's edge is a reasonably skilled player. However, the large discrepancy in top performance shouldn't be ignored. Stam Arc is quite ahead of the pack on this trial.
Dreadsail Reef
Median for Top 5 dps
Stamplar: 61.68
Stam Arc: 52.59
Mag Plar: 48.11
Mag DK: 48.71
Stam DK: 44.39
Winner: Stam Arc
Runner-Up: Stam Plar
Conclusion: The median score the top 5 dps aren't as close as before. The clear winner at the median range is the Stamina Templar. It pulls out significantly ahead of the next 4 dps. As for at the max, the winner becomes Stam Arc. And again, this is not close. It pulls way ahead of even the Stamplar, which is itself way ahead of all other classes. I listed Stam Arc as the winner here because of it dominating the max category, but for the median role, it's actually Stam Plar.
RockgroveMedian for Top 5 dps
Stam Arc: 72.18
Stam Plar: 64.37
Mag Plar: 64.49
Mag DK: 62.76
Mag Arc: 59.29
Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc
Conclusion: The median score is once again not as close as in Sanity's edge. That trial is looking more and more balanced well for different classes to shine the more I look at these LOL. Stam Arc both sits at the top again, and also is significantly ahead of the other 4. Once again, Stam Arc and Stam Plar pull significantly ahead of the rest in the top 5 max. This time, it is Stam Plar that is significantly ahead of Stam Arc.
Kyne's Aegis
Median
Stam Plar: 75.20
Mag Plar: 64.44
Stam Arc: 62.78
Stam Sorc: 58.24
Stam DK: 55.43
Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc
Conclusion: Stamina Templar is the clear winner of this trial in terms of data captured. It had a median score well above the median scores of other classes, and also had a significantly better score at the max as well. Once again at the max, the second best was Stam Arc. When looking at the medium, Mag Plar pulls a bit ahead. This seems like a good trial for Templars based purely on this data (I am not going by personal experience in these trials, just by what the data is showing for damage to bosses in particular as of update 40).
Sunspire
Median
Stam Plar: 73.88
Stam Arc: 71.60
Mag Plar: 71.22
Mag DK: 62.09
Stam Sorc: 61.48
Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc
Conclusion: At the median, the Top 3 are pretty close, and then performance goes significantly down. This time the difference between runner-up and winner was not as pronounced. In general the top 3 perform notably better than the rest.
Cloud Rest +3
Median
Stam Plar: 43.56
Stam Arc: 41.67
Stam Cro: 40.38
Mag DK: 40.13
Stam Sorc: 37.94
Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc
Conclusion: At the median the class performance is again reasonably close between the top 5 classes. At the top, Stam plar outshines everything by quite a bit. Again, yes, I'm ignoring the dots.
Asylum Sanctorum
Median
Stam Plar: 55.02
Stam Arc: 49.61
Stam Sorc: 40.09
Stam DK: 37.67
Stam Blade: 37.38
Winner: Stam Arc
Runner-Up: Stam Blade
Conclusion: I only included this trial because its notable for having less adds than other trials. So, I wanted to see if it would be the case that Stam Arc dropped out of being such a top performing class. It did not. I don't think the adds have anything to do with. Top 5 at the median is again all over the place. Stam Arc is the best at the max and it's not close.
Trial RankingsWhile this is a small sample size of players, it helps to see what the very best of the game looks at when determining how balanced a class is. I couldn't figure out how to view this as aggregate damage to bosses like with AS and CR. But I did notice that scoreboards in general had stam sorc overrepresented.
Cloud Rest
Top 10: 9 spots are Stam Arc, 9th place is a Mag Plar
Asylum Sanctorum
Top 10: All spots are Stam Arc
Overall, I see Stam Arc as consistently finding itself as a top performer, but that difference is not as large as it made it out to be in terms of actual performance. In fact, in some cases, Stam Templar did better. The top rankings and number of parses told a different story though. While the performance in the median and max were closer, Stam Arc dominated the rankings. But, also had way more opportunities to do so as it was heavily favored to be brought into trials. It reminds me of something a developer said in another game, to paraphrase, "Sometimes the perception of balance is more important than the actual balance itself."
I think the nerf is a good thing because Stam Arc is overperforming though. Mag Arc is not.
And this is why the blanket nerf to fatecarver is unneccessary, the issues lie in daggers, velothi ur mage, stamina scaling, whatever the BIS trial gear set is and its synergy with stamina arcanist.
If this nerf goes through, which it probably will, magicka arcanist is going to be close to bottom of the barrel when you consider all the other classes are getting buffed.
@Galeriano You should study these numbers. HARD PROOF that magicka arcanist does not need a nerf, as I have been saying for post after post after post.
Those things you want to nerf? Daggers, velothi, medium armor, etc? Those are used by every single class and would result in a blanket nerf across the board of all specs. I use them on my magdk!0 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just realized this while watching an old trials replay so I wanted to ask:
You guys remember how they nerfed Templar jabs right? I remember lots of people complaining about how it over performed and this that, lots of reasons they wanted it nerfed. So lemme just ask an Arcanist... can you please tell me what the proverbial difference is between repeating jabs causing massive dmg, (which now they've nerfed that some so its slow with this harrible animation) and the Arcanist Fate Carver Beamer skill basically achieving a similar if not greater result?
Cause from where I'm standing it seems Fatecarever is not just over-performing, its out-doing pre-nerf jabs like majorly. Why should it not be taken into hand? What it makes it so special aside from the fact that lots of you have adopted it as your thing?
I mean to be real about this you have bombers now wiping out entire groups using this skill by itself and as I see it, no metrics, none of that required when you have one skill doing most of the work, continually inflicting mass-casualties with little effort and in many instances no real rotation required that I could see, just like... pre-nerf templar jabs used to do. I'd love an answer as to why we're punishing templars but rewarding this other class which is basically doing the exact same thing and prospering from it like crazy.Edited by Vulkunne on February 14, 2024 6:37AM"I know that someday that sun is bound to shine." -Ella Fitzgerald1 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭My guild does 0 portal vCR+3 runs and the logs speak for themselves. Massive arcanist dps(about 125k average) and beam, a single skill, makes up around 50% of that.
That's the point of the beam. It makes up most of your damage. If it didn't, with how long it is cast for and how it needs crux to be good and how if you get interrupted it can do 0 damage, it would be a dead skill no one uses.
Whole point of the beam is to be highly overperforming? And argument that it can be interrupted is pretty weak. Overwhelming majority od casts wont be interrupted and those that will barely cause a flinch in DPS. There is plenty of ways to redesign it to more balanced ability that would be still in use but not way too strong like it is right now.0 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭My guild does 0 portal vCR+3 runs and the logs speak for themselves. Massive arcanist dps(about 125k average) and beam, a single skill, makes up around 50% of that.
What is more funny is that if You have to send someone for the portals in +3, arcanist is miles ahead of other classes. You can destroy multiple crystals at once with a beam, sometimes basically making solo downstairs feel like a cake walk when on other classes for years it was considered a big feat.1 -
Kalle_Demos✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Okay I'll try to form an opinion based on the data from PC and not just what I personally experience in console, which admittedly doesn't give me a data driven view or one that does a ton of vet trials content. This is pulled from eso logs website. As I have never used this website, I may have errors.
ParsesRanking for Top 10 Parses
Winner: Stam Sorc with 7 spots
Runner-Up: Stam Arc with 2 spots
Ranking for Top 100 Parses
Top 3 parses:
Stam Sorc: 144k
Mag Arc: 137k
Stam Sorc: 131k
Best Time: 2 minutes 25 seconds
Bottom 3 Parses in Top 100
Mag Cro 101k
Mag Plar 101k
Stam DK 101k
Worst Time: 3 Minutes 27 seconds
Time Difference between Best and Worst: 1 minute 2 seconds
Parses in General:
Stam Sorc Median: 88.54
Stam Arc Median: 83.5
Stam Plar Median: 83.37
Stam Den Median: 77.12
Mag Blade Median: 73.86
Mag Plar Median 73.5
Mag Sorc Median: 72.29
Stam DK Median: 70.68
Mag Arc Median: 70.09
Stam Blade Median: 67.85
Mag DK Median: 67.72
Mag Cro Median: 67.38
Mag Den Median: 66.85
Stam Cro Median: 63.15
Max Parses
Winner: Stam Sorc: 102.57
Runner-Up: Mag Arc: 98.12
Personal Conclusion:
The best class at the Target Dummy: Stamina Sorceror.
Stam Sorc dominated the top 10 and also had the best Median score. The median score is how most players are going to interact with the class, and at the median the difference between the top 5 classes is not crazy unless looking at Mag classes overall compared to stam classes. At that point, stam took 4/5 of the top 5 spots. And the 5th spot, the only mag class, is also the only one that doesn't round to at or above 80k. Ideally, all classes would be at 70k as that's the minimum number needed to feel decent in vet trials. 5 setups, including the entire Necromancer class, fail to meet that minimum standard, indicating that buffs are needed to underperforming classes. I remain unconvinced that any of the top classes are in need of nerfs based on this as while the minimum performance determines a player's ability to enter content, top performance on a dummy does not always translate top performance in dungeons or trials.
TrialsI am going to ignore the little dots and instead look at the max on the bar. I am doing this because I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) that's based on the highest individual parse noted, while the max bar is more so an aggregate score. If that is indeed the case, it should be excluded as too low a sample size. If I'm correct, then even the person who did it, it might be a personal best for them and not typical of their performance.
Sanity's Edge:
Median for Top 5 dps
Stam Arc: 54.89
Mag DK 54.17
Stam Plar: 54.50
Mag Plar 53.32
Mag Arc: 52.54
Winner: Stam Arc
Runner-Up: Mag Plar (by a hair)
Conclusion: The median score for the top 5 dps classes are all fairly close to one another. They are performing very closely. The top scores are fairly large in difference. Arcanist is heavily favored to be brought into the trials, which could be a factor in this discrepancy. But the difference in their performance at the Median does not justify such heavy favoring. The Median performance is a good class performance indicator as it's the least effected by perceptions of the top guilds and exceptionally talented individuals. Also, anyone able to do vet sanity's edge is a reasonably skilled player. However, the large discrepancy in top performance shouldn't be ignored. Stam Arc is quite ahead of the pack on this trial.
Dreadsail Reef
Median for Top 5 dps
Stamplar: 61.68
Stam Arc: 52.59
Mag Plar: 48.11
Mag DK: 48.71
Stam DK: 44.39
Winner: Stam Arc
Runner-Up: Stam Plar
Conclusion: The median score the top 5 dps aren't as close as before. The clear winner at the median range is the Stamina Templar. It pulls out significantly ahead of the next 4 dps. As for at the max, the winner becomes Stam Arc. And again, this is not close. It pulls way ahead of even the Stamplar, which is itself way ahead of all other classes. I listed Stam Arc as the winner here because of it dominating the max category, but for the median role, it's actually Stam Plar.
RockgroveMedian for Top 5 dps
Stam Arc: 72.18
Stam Plar: 64.37
Mag Plar: 64.49
Mag DK: 62.76
Mag Arc: 59.29
Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc
Conclusion: The median score is once again not as close as in Sanity's edge. That trial is looking more and more balanced well for different classes to shine the more I look at these LOL. Stam Arc both sits at the top again, and also is significantly ahead of the other 4. Once again, Stam Arc and Stam Plar pull significantly ahead of the rest in the top 5 max. This time, it is Stam Plar that is significantly ahead of Stam Arc.
Kyne's Aegis
Median
Stam Plar: 75.20
Mag Plar: 64.44
Stam Arc: 62.78
Stam Sorc: 58.24
Stam DK: 55.43
Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc
Conclusion: Stamina Templar is the clear winner of this trial in terms of data captured. It had a median score well above the median scores of other classes, and also had a significantly better score at the max as well. Once again at the max, the second best was Stam Arc. When looking at the medium, Mag Plar pulls a bit ahead. This seems like a good trial for Templars based purely on this data (I am not going by personal experience in these trials, just by what the data is showing for damage to bosses in particular as of update 40).
Sunspire
Median
Stam Plar: 73.88
Stam Arc: 71.60
Mag Plar: 71.22
Mag DK: 62.09
Stam Sorc: 61.48
Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc
Conclusion: At the median, the Top 3 are pretty close, and then performance goes significantly down. This time the difference between runner-up and winner was not as pronounced. In general the top 3 perform notably better than the rest.
Cloud Rest +3
Median
Stam Plar: 43.56
Stam Arc: 41.67
Stam Cro: 40.38
Mag DK: 40.13
Stam Sorc: 37.94
Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc
Conclusion: At the median the class performance is again reasonably close between the top 5 classes. At the top, Stam plar outshines everything by quite a bit. Again, yes, I'm ignoring the dots.
Asylum Sanctorum
Median
Stam Plar: 55.02
Stam Arc: 49.61
Stam Sorc: 40.09
Stam DK: 37.67
Stam Blade: 37.38
Winner: Stam Arc
Runner-Up: Stam Blade
Conclusion: I only included this trial because its notable for having less adds than other trials. So, I wanted to see if it would be the case that Stam Arc dropped out of being such a top performing class. It did not. I don't think the adds have anything to do with. Top 5 at the median is again all over the place. Stam Arc is the best at the max and it's not close.
Trial RankingsWhile this is a small sample size of players, it helps to see what the very best of the game looks at when determining how balanced a class is. I couldn't figure out how to view this as aggregate damage to bosses like with AS and CR. But I did notice that scoreboards in general had stam sorc overrepresented.
Cloud Rest
Top 10: 9 spots are Stam Arc, 9th place is a Mag Plar
Asylum Sanctorum
Top 10: All spots are Stam Arc
Overall, I see Stam Arc as consistently finding itself as a top performer, but that difference is not as large as it made it out to be in terms of actual performance. In fact, in some cases, Stam Templar did better. The top rankings and number of parses told a different story though. While the performance in the median and max were closer, Stam Arc dominated the rankings. But, also had way more opportunities to do so as it was heavily favored to be brought into trials. It reminds me of something a developer said in another game, to paraphrase, "Sometimes the perception of balance is more important than the actual balance itself."
I think the nerf is a good thing because Stam Arc is overperforming though. Mag Arc is not.
This. People are confusing popularity for power. The Arcanist doesn't need more nerfs, adjustments sure but it's fun and in a good spot, underperforming Classes need buffs. The notion that the popular and fun Class needs to be nerfed so that others can shine is exactly how the Necromancer got to the sad state it's in now. The last thing the game needs is yet another broken Class that people bought and are unhappy with, that is incapable of meeting minimum requirements for certain content. Play your way, right? It shouldn't matter how popular any Class is, they should all be hitting the same thresholds. Crippling Classes so that players are forced to use others is not balance.
"If I am to be Queen, I must look fear in the face and conquer it. How can I ask my people to have faith in me if I don't have faith in myself?" - Queen Ayrenn2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kalle_Demos wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Okay I'll try to form an opinion based on the data from PC and not just what I personally experience in console, which admittedly doesn't give me a data driven view or one that does a ton of vet trials content. This is pulled from eso logs website. As I have never used this website, I may have errors.
ParsesRanking for Top 10 Parses
Winner: Stam Sorc with 7 spots
Runner-Up: Stam Arc with 2 spots
Ranking for Top 100 Parses
Top 3 parses:
Stam Sorc: 144k
Mag Arc: 137k
Stam Sorc: 131k
Best Time: 2 minutes 25 seconds
Bottom 3 Parses in Top 100
Mag Cro 101k
Mag Plar 101k
Stam DK 101k
Worst Time: 3 Minutes 27 seconds
Time Difference between Best and Worst: 1 minute 2 seconds
Parses in General:
Stam Sorc Median: 88.54
Stam Arc Median: 83.5
Stam Plar Median: 83.37
Stam Den Median: 77.12
Mag Blade Median: 73.86
Mag Plar Median 73.5
Mag Sorc Median: 72.29
Stam DK Median: 70.68
Mag Arc Median: 70.09
Stam Blade Median: 67.85
Mag DK Median: 67.72
Mag Cro Median: 67.38
Mag Den Median: 66.85
Stam Cro Median: 63.15
Max Parses
Winner: Stam Sorc: 102.57
Runner-Up: Mag Arc: 98.12
Personal Conclusion:
The best class at the Target Dummy: Stamina Sorceror.
Stam Sorc dominated the top 10 and also had the best Median score. The median score is how most players are going to interact with the class, and at the median the difference between the top 5 classes is not crazy unless looking at Mag classes overall compared to stam classes. At that point, stam took 4/5 of the top 5 spots. And the 5th spot, the only mag class, is also the only one that doesn't round to at or above 80k. Ideally, all classes would be at 70k as that's the minimum number needed to feel decent in vet trials. 5 setups, including the entire Necromancer class, fail to meet that minimum standard, indicating that buffs are needed to underperforming classes. I remain unconvinced that any of the top classes are in need of nerfs based on this as while the minimum performance determines a player's ability to enter content, top performance on a dummy does not always translate top performance in dungeons or trials.
TrialsI am going to ignore the little dots and instead look at the max on the bar. I am doing this because I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) that's based on the highest individual parse noted, while the max bar is more so an aggregate score. If that is indeed the case, it should be excluded as too low a sample size. If I'm correct, then even the person who did it, it might be a personal best for them and not typical of their performance.
Sanity's Edge:
Median for Top 5 dps
Stam Arc: 54.89
Mag DK 54.17
Stam Plar: 54.50
Mag Plar 53.32
Mag Arc: 52.54
Winner: Stam Arc
Runner-Up: Mag Plar (by a hair)
Conclusion: The median score for the top 5 dps classes are all fairly close to one another. They are performing very closely. The top scores are fairly large in difference. Arcanist is heavily favored to be brought into the trials, which could be a factor in this discrepancy. But the difference in their performance at the Median does not justify such heavy favoring. The Median performance is a good class performance indicator as it's the least effected by perceptions of the top guilds and exceptionally talented individuals. Also, anyone able to do vet sanity's edge is a reasonably skilled player. However, the large discrepancy in top performance shouldn't be ignored. Stam Arc is quite ahead of the pack on this trial.
Dreadsail Reef
Median for Top 5 dps
Stamplar: 61.68
Stam Arc: 52.59
Mag Plar: 48.11
Mag DK: 48.71
Stam DK: 44.39
Winner: Stam Arc
Runner-Up: Stam Plar
Conclusion: The median score the top 5 dps aren't as close as before. The clear winner at the median range is the Stamina Templar. It pulls out significantly ahead of the next 4 dps. As for at the max, the winner becomes Stam Arc. And again, this is not close. It pulls way ahead of even the Stamplar, which is itself way ahead of all other classes. I listed Stam Arc as the winner here because of it dominating the max category, but for the median role, it's actually Stam Plar.
RockgroveMedian for Top 5 dps
Stam Arc: 72.18
Stam Plar: 64.37
Mag Plar: 64.49
Mag DK: 62.76
Mag Arc: 59.29
Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc
Conclusion: The median score is once again not as close as in Sanity's edge. That trial is looking more and more balanced well for different classes to shine the more I look at these LOL. Stam Arc both sits at the top again, and also is significantly ahead of the other 4. Once again, Stam Arc and Stam Plar pull significantly ahead of the rest in the top 5 max. This time, it is Stam Plar that is significantly ahead of Stam Arc.
Kyne's Aegis
Median
Stam Plar: 75.20
Mag Plar: 64.44
Stam Arc: 62.78
Stam Sorc: 58.24
Stam DK: 55.43
Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc
Conclusion: Stamina Templar is the clear winner of this trial in terms of data captured. It had a median score well above the median scores of other classes, and also had a significantly better score at the max as well. Once again at the max, the second best was Stam Arc. When looking at the medium, Mag Plar pulls a bit ahead. This seems like a good trial for Templars based purely on this data (I am not going by personal experience in these trials, just by what the data is showing for damage to bosses in particular as of update 40).
Sunspire
Median
Stam Plar: 73.88
Stam Arc: 71.60
Mag Plar: 71.22
Mag DK: 62.09
Stam Sorc: 61.48
Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc
Conclusion: At the median, the Top 3 are pretty close, and then performance goes significantly down. This time the difference between runner-up and winner was not as pronounced. In general the top 3 perform notably better than the rest.
Cloud Rest +3
Median
Stam Plar: 43.56
Stam Arc: 41.67
Stam Cro: 40.38
Mag DK: 40.13
Stam Sorc: 37.94
Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc
Conclusion: At the median the class performance is again reasonably close between the top 5 classes. At the top, Stam plar outshines everything by quite a bit. Again, yes, I'm ignoring the dots.
Asylum Sanctorum
Median
Stam Plar: 55.02
Stam Arc: 49.61
Stam Sorc: 40.09
Stam DK: 37.67
Stam Blade: 37.38
Winner: Stam Arc
Runner-Up: Stam Blade
Conclusion: I only included this trial because its notable for having less adds than other trials. So, I wanted to see if it would be the case that Stam Arc dropped out of being such a top performing class. It did not. I don't think the adds have anything to do with. Top 5 at the median is again all over the place. Stam Arc is the best at the max and it's not close.
Trial RankingsWhile this is a small sample size of players, it helps to see what the very best of the game looks at when determining how balanced a class is. I couldn't figure out how to view this as aggregate damage to bosses like with AS and CR. But I did notice that scoreboards in general had stam sorc overrepresented.
Cloud Rest
Top 10: 9 spots are Stam Arc, 9th place is a Mag Plar
Asylum Sanctorum
Top 10: All spots are Stam Arc
Overall, I see Stam Arc as consistently finding itself as a top performer, but that difference is not as large as it made it out to be in terms of actual performance. In fact, in some cases, Stam Templar did better. The top rankings and number of parses told a different story though. While the performance in the median and max were closer, Stam Arc dominated the rankings. But, also had way more opportunities to do so as it was heavily favored to be brought into trials. It reminds me of something a developer said in another game, to paraphrase, "Sometimes the perception of balance is more important than the actual balance itself."
I think the nerf is a good thing because Stam Arc is overperforming though. Mag Arc is not.
This. People are confusing popularity for power. The Arcanist doesn't need more nerfs, adjustments sure but it's fun and in a good spot, underperforming Classes need buffs. The notion that the popular and fun Class needs to be nerfed so that others can shine is exactly how the Necromancer got to the sad state it's in now. The last thing the game needs is yet another broken Class that people bought and are unhappy with, that is incapable of meeting minimum requirements for certain content. Play your way, right? It shouldn't matter how popular any Class is, they should all be hitting the same thresholds. Crippling Classes so that players are forced to use others is not balance.
I do think the Arcanist needs nerfs based on that information. Perhaps not as big of ones as some others in this thread, but I do think that shows they are overperforming and need nerfs. There are also classes that need buffs. The lowest performers are not doing well in general.
Mag Sorc, Nightblade, Necromancers, and Wardens could all use buffs.Edited by spartaxoxo on February 14, 2024 10:44AM1 -
RetPing✭✭✭✭✭Wanted to ask to people saying that Arcanisty don't need nerf but other classes need buff, in your opinion vet Trial/Dungeon should become like overland PvE?
Because this is where the game is going with your idea.Already you can skip most mechanics by stacking and burning everything.
2 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Wanted to ask to people saying that Arcanisty don't need nerf but other classes need buff, in your opinion vet Trial/Dungeon should become like overland PvE?
Because this is where the game is going with your idea.Already you can skip most mechanics by stacking and burning everything.
Yes, that's exactly the agenda of this game's entitlelists.
They try to trivialize challenging content for literally 10 years now. Asking for increased power creep for the "fun" of mindlessly nuking otherwise difficult encounters is rather usual for this type of player.
Is pairing well with their demands to nerf content down to overland "difficulty" and forcing us into running at their speed in groups.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wanted to ask to people saying that Arcanisty don't need nerf but other classes need buff, in your opinion vet Trial/Dungeon should become like overland PvE?
Because this is where the game is going with your idea.Already you can skip most mechanics by stacking and burning everything.
No. I wouldn't want the entire game to be overland. Are you saying Vet Rock Grove is easy as overland for a Templar?
Because if it a challenge for Templar, then making Warden perform the same as the Templar, would mean it is still a challenge for the Warden too.
Edit
Why should the best mag Sorc at Kyne's Aegis do worse than a mid Stam Templar?
That's not acceptable level of performance difference.Edited by spartaxoxo on February 14, 2024 12:19PM1