If you're gonna nerf Arcanist DPS...

Pixiepumpkin · February 10

Katahdin wrote: »

When they make it as easy for me on my favorite class to do the same damage, instead of being forced to play a class I dont want to play or sit on the bench, Ill be fine with it.

I was unaware that entire trials are forcing players to bring their stamina arcanists only. If that is the case, then yes nerf stamina arcanst (which I have never been against, I am against the changed affecing magicka arcanists).

But ya, if your guilds are forcing everyone to sit out because they want only stamina arcanists, then ya that is a problem.

Katahdin wrote: »

All other classes shouldn't be forced to do it while one can just have easy mode. Ill never understand why people dont get that.

I can explain why. Because of latancy differences.
I can not perform high DPS (meaning I can not enjoy the content I pay for) because of my latancy issues. Oakensoul is necessary for me. Arcanist also helps in this regard because of how the class plays.

I do not want to be benched because my simple rotation spec is underperforming, this is why I advocate for oakensoul and allowing for simple rotations like arcanist pull vet worthy DPS.

Katahdin wrote: »

You are entitled to your opinion but so are those that disagree

I never suggested otherwise.

Katahdin wrote: »

Dont get me wrong, I HATE dummy humping with a passion but I had to do it if I wanted to do the content.

Dont blame other players, blame ZoS for making weaving required for high DPS

I hate sitting at target dummies for 10 minutes as well, all it does is reaffirmd that my ping is not good enough to be able to play anything other than oakensoul.

You are lucky to be able to play the class you want, how you want. I am not afforded this luxury.

Katahdin · February 10

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

When they make it as easy for me on my favorite class to do the same damage, instead of being forced to play a class I dont want to play or sit on the bench, Ill be fine with it.

I was unaware that entire trials are forcing players to bring their stamina arcanists only. If that is the case, then yes nerf stamina arcanst (which I have never been against, I am against the changed affecing magicka arcanists).

But ya, if your guilds are forcing everyone to sit out because they want only stamina arcanists, then ya that is a problem.

You are lucky to be able to play the class you want, how you want. I am not afforded this luxury.

I havent been lucky as you say, I have had plenty of times I was told to bring another class or spec or dont bother showing up.

Its not just Arcanist, the same thing happened with Necros. Trials for a while wanted at least 6-8 necros.
For certain trials, stamina is a no-go, you MUST be on magicka. There was a time when you not only had to be magicka, you had to be a vampire as well. Nightblades, especiallly stamina night blades were once ostracized from trials and are still to some extent now even because other classes do better. Stam DK had that happen to it too.

Its been a common theme throughout the game's history, the specifics on which class/spec changes.

All most of us ask for is to make every spec (mag or stam) of every class viable for DPS, with all doing about the same amount of damage at least so that we dont have trials only wanting one class/spec for a majority of the group.
That might be a tall order but its the only way to have balance

katanagirl1 · February 10

Why nerf a certain class or build in PvE? The issues with arcanist in PvP are different, some of those guys are so tanky and can do tons of damage too. There are only a few players I have seen that can do that, though.

You are free to play whichever you want. So make a stamina arcanist and enjoy it too. No one is stopping you. It only took me a few weeks to get mine trial-ready.

EDIT: typo

jerj6925 · February 10

I have a solution, eliminate all classes, make a character and choose 3 of any skill lines you want and now no one's feeling can get hurt about another class out performing another.

Oh wait the we would all be crying about destroying skill lines. You know what just have 1 class, 3 skill lines and nothing else, now no one has to complain about another class being better than theirs.

I am beyond burned out on players destroying a game because others don't use the combat system like they do.

If ESO starts nerfing arcanist I'm done with this game, sick and tired of buying an expansion only to see what I paid for removed or changed into something that's useless.

Galeriano · February 10

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

I don't know where did You get the impression that I did not adapt. Fact that I adapted doesn't mean I don't see how overpowered arcanist is.

Because you first suggested that I did not adapt, which could just as easily be said to you.

Galeriano wrote: »

Stam arcanist is basically almost the same as mag atm. Majority of Your dmg comes from a beam which is a magic dmg skill no matter what resource You base Your dmg on. Arcanist being better does not irritate me and it is my PvE main atm so all Your assumptions about me are complete misses. I just objectively state arcanist it is leaps and bounds beyond other classes which in longer run is very unhealthy for the class balance and the game itself.

No, magicka arcanst are not at the same level. You keep using the class to justify magica nerfs, which are not necessary...that is unless you feel everything that is at magicka level also need nerfed (which in fact they are getting buffed, further pushing magicka down).

Galeriano wrote: »

Making all classes equall on both mag and stam is IMPOSSIBLE. There is too many variables at play to make everything equall at the same time. There will be always a setup that is the strongest. Making class os much stronger than everything else doesn't seem like "getting it right".

Its not impossible but it might be out of the means of zos to do so due to budget.

Galeriano wrote: »

Light attack weaving was nerfed to the point that velothi is a meta for every class right now. Simplier rotation have nothing to do with arcanist being the top at almost every leaderboard because as I already said people that are top on leaderboards have no issue with rotation on any class so it's actually raw strenght of a class itself that makes it the best for them.

Few are perfect with their rotation in trials. Target dummies are one thing, trial fights are anther and this is where arcanist shines due to the simper roation, so it is VERY much a factor.
And light attacks are still a large portion of overall DPS, enough that if not done properly you can easily see the simper rotations pull ahead.

Galeriano wrote: »

If other classes would be stronger than arcanist DPS wise with harder rotations top players would be using that other classes. There is a reason they don't do it.

But that is the point, many of them use arcanist because there still is a rotation, but its perfected without having to light weave. Not having to light weave removes any latancy issues that may exist.

Galeriano wrote: »

There was a period when stamina was held in limelight for few years. Things change and with ongoing hybrydisation the lines between mag and stam are becoming blurry. Like I already said things will never be perfectly on par. One of the main reasons behid choosing certain setup by many people is it's strenght copmpared to others.There needs to be a weaker setup for stronger setup to exist.

And stamina still generally overperformed, always has.

Galeriano wrote: »

Developer was never giving a promise or advertising game as such that whatever You choose to play will be on par with other specs in the game so Your expectations are unjistified. As a customoer You should reasonably expect that making everything equall is simply impossible and there will be always stronger and weaker builds. Choosing sub optimal setup is a personal decision on Your side.

Expectations are completely justified, its the developers responsibility to ensure that everything they are selling has equal opportunity.

And balance although not possible to make perfectly equal can in fact be brought within 5% of each other or even closer as other studios have done.

Secondly, there is no such thing as choosing a sub-optimal build. I feel like you say it this way to berrate my choices as inferior. The fact is no one knows how their class is going to perform when they start playing it unless you study 3rd party sources, which I do not as many do not. I never "chose" to play a "sub optimal build", I chose to play a magicka arcanist because I always play magicka.

Galeriano wrote: »

Arcanist overperforms in general fact that stam arcanist is stronger doesn't mean mag arcanist is weak. Beam is overpowered in general. Sure there are ways to nerf stam arcanist more than mag but it doesn't adress elephant in the room which beam is.

Beam is not the issue and magicka does not need a nerf, this has been stated like 7 times now. Magicka should not aborb an unneceesary nerf because stamina is stronger. There are other ways to achieve the end goal without making magicka arcanists inferior.
Regarding PVP, magicka arcanists are already inferior. The beam itself is inferior becasue of its lack of tracking. Right now, on live people completely tank my beam and shread me to pieces, this means they are not afraid of fatecarverer becasue its already not doing enough damage.

Galeriano wrote: »

Bottom line is that arcanist as a class needs a dmg nerf since it's currently completly destroying game balance. Making sub optimal version of it less optimal is really not that important when whole game balance is at stake.

No, the class does not need a nerf. Fatecarver is not the issue, and I already explained why, [snip].

And "game balance" is not at stake. No one is having less fun becasue the boss goes down slightly faster. In fact, everyone champions the bosses going down faster.....this is proven through the fact that vet trials will not bring along sub-par specs.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

No it couldn't be as easily said to me. Ther is no direct paralel between base for Your and my opinion. I do not demand from developer for every build to be equall.

I never said mag and stam arcanist are on the same level DPS wise. I said they're pretty much the same when it comes to rotation and type of dmg done. I would ask You to read my comments and check the context of Your messages they're responding to more carefully because lots of Your comments is driven by lack of understanding of what I said. As for arcanist class needs nerf. Fact that nerf will touch magicka arcanist is not a argument to stop nerfs to beam. That ability is just overloaded no matter mag or stam version of it. There is like 20+ different versions of class DD builds and You want for one of them to hold whole game balance a hostage? That sounds completly irrational.

It is impossible. The only ways that could make it remotely possible would kill the game in longer run.

In top leaderboard scores everyone is perfect or near perfect in his rotation. Otherwise he wouldn't be sitting at the top. [snip]
Like I already said in higher end runs, easier rotation on arcanist is not a important factor. This is why You will see lots of the same people at the top no matter what current meta class is. And belive me LA weaving is not that hard to do for everyone in higher end. It's becoming a habit that You don't even think about. Plenty of people can do it efficiently.

Light attacks are now laughable portion of overall DPS compared to what they used to achieve. Their base dmg was nerfed, empower was nerfed, dmg scaling was capped, maesltrom destro reworked. People seem to not understand how producing DPS works. Assuming that theoretically there would be 2 players both being able to perfectly keep uptimes of every skill and use skill ideally withing GCD but one of them would be perfect at LA and other would be missing most of his LA, the difference in DPS between those two players would be like 4%. This is why every DD is now using velothi, because DPS gain from light attacks without velothi is noticably lower than DPS gain from wearing velothi. And just for the record arcanist is not free from LA weaving. For mastering the rotation he still needs it and if velothi wouldn't be a meta LA weaving would be a thing on every class including arcanist.

Stamina DDs were not even a thing worth considering in 1st year of game existance. There were many patches where magicka was dominating. Overall in 10 years long history of ESO I would say the time of stamina vs magicka reign in group PvE is split almost 50/50 with magicka setups taking the slight lead.

No, developer have no obligation to make everything equally strong. There is no law or rule that says he should and basic logic suggest that it's impossible.

In oder to achieve that 5% balance margin one of the things that needs to be done is hefty nerf to beam.

Choosing a sub optimal build is a thing. Like if You would run naked and with bare knuckles You would still claim it's optimal? It seems like You have issue with accepting the fact that magicka arcanist is sub optimal version of a class. Fact that You pick some setup when starting the game doesn't mean You can't optimise it later on to make it stronger when You get more knowledge. There is nothing wrong in running in sub optimal setup and it's not an insult for setup to be called sub optimal it's pretty logical that certain setups will be more optimal and certain ones won't. It's up to You wheter You want to optimise Your setup or not. Fact that You play mag arcanist because it's magicka doesn't change the fact that magicka arcanist is sub optimal version of a class. Literally every class have optimal and sub optimal version.

Beam is an issue. Having an chanelled ranged AoE DoT ability that deals more dmg than single target ability combined with DoT tick while also being less than half of spammable ability cost is an issue. Magicka arcanist is already inferior to stamina arcanist. Nerf to beam can actually change that because then mag arcanist can start using runeblades+tentacular dread rotation that stam arcanist can't use. ZoS can even sweaten the deal and buff tentacular dread to make this rotation stronger than it is already although it's pretty strong anyway.

PvP is more about hybrids these days. Also I don't know why we are suddenly switching the goal post to PvP. Arcanist is doing pretty well there and he doesn't need a beam to be doing good. And properly build beam arcanist can demolish people in PvP if he knows how to find an opportunity to do so. From what I've seen in Your other thread about being taken down by nb in 3 seonds You don't seem to have lot of PvP experience yet so don't expect be doing extremly well in PvP. Everybody had to start somwhere.

yes class needs a nerf, fatecarver is an issue and I have data to support my claims. Personal opinions have hard time competing with statistics and data.

If one class out of 7 have 50% population in group PvE, than yeah, game balance is at stake. Right now PvE can be basically described as arcanist vs rest of the world. Belive me I would find plenty people who have less fun because boss fights are getting faster and more trivial. In fact this is one of the reasons group PvE is loosing popularity. Faster fights means less challenge. Less challenge means less room to mistakes and less room tomistakes means less room to improve and feel rewarded at the end. Fights are getting dull and boring especially when played with a class such as arcanist where You stand still and beam for majority of fight. Some people find everything being simplified and handled to them as fun, some people don't. Devs job is to find balance between those two groups.

[edited for minor baiting]

Galeriano · February 10

Katahdin wrote: »

Dont blame other players, blame ZoS for making weaving required for high DPS

I dont know why this misconception still exists. Perfect LA weaving is not required to reach high DPS. It wasn't for a long time. It is required to reach maximum DPS possible but not to just achieve high DPS.

Pixiepumpkin · February 11

Galeriano wrote: »

No it couldn't be as easily said to me. Ther is no direct paralel between base for Your and my opinion. I do not demand from developer for every build to be equall.

I never demanded it, but its a rightful expectation from a customer.

When ones purchases an MMORPG and there are 20 specilizations to play in game, there is a rightful expectation by the cutomer that regardless of what class they choose to play, that it will be useful while leveling, in PVP and PVE endgame.
That is no different than a customer having a rightful expection that their food will be cooked thoroughly and warm/hot.
That is no different than a customer having a rightful expectation that their brand new car will work 1 year from now....and in fact there are laws to ensure businesses do so. Just because those laws have not caught up with the video game industry does not mean the core tennant of the ideas changes.
As customers, we all purchase the game for the same cost, be it retail or on sale which are set by ZOS. We have a rightful expectation that our excperineces in game will be met on par with our peers.

Galeriano wrote: »

Magicka arcanist actually have alternative rotation at his disposal. It's a rotation based around runeblades and tentacular dread. It gives him similar single target as current beam rotation.

I never said mag and stam arcanist are on the same level DPS wise. I said they're pretty much the same when it comes to rotation and type of dmg done.
[/quote]
Outside of this quote, the crux of my argument in this entire conversation is that magicka does not deserve the nerf that is being applied to fatecarver because stamina is over performing. This has been the core of my conversation and yet in just about every instance of this discussion, you keep doubling down on the entire class NEEDING nerfed, when this is not the case for magicka.

Galeriano wrote: »

I would ask You to read my comments and check the context of Your messages they're responding to more carefully because lots of Your comments is driven by lack of understanding of what I said. As for arcanist class needs nerf.

I have read them thoroughly and I am in no misunderstadning. The fact is, MAGICKA Arcanist does not deserve the same nerf that is being applied to stamina arcanist. Magicka is not overperforming and in some cases its lower DPS than templar. In PVP, magicka arcanist is not even remotely close to being strong compared to nightlade, DK, templar, sorcs or warden.

Galeriano wrote: »

Fact that nerf will touch magicka arcanist is not a argument to stop nerfs to beam. That ability is just overloaded no matter mag or stam version of it. There is like 20+ different versions of class DD builds and You want for one of them to hold whole game balance a hostage? That sounds completly irrational.

And this is where I completely disagree. Magicka does not deserve the same nerf. ZOS is taking a scorched earth approach to this nerf vs a more creative approach and due to this Magicka arcanists are going to suffer.

As I have stated about 5 times now. The issue is not the arcanist class in and of itself. Its the pairing, the synergy between fatecarver, MEDIUM armor, STAMINA scaling, VELOTHI UR MAGE, DAGGERS, and the fact that the rotation is simple due to NO LIGHT ATTACK WEAVING.
The common denominator is stamina, not fatecarver. If that WAS the case (and its not) then magicka would be performing equally as well and yet it doesnt...and magicka has HIGHER scaling with base damage tooltip on the arcanist.

So if the base damage on the arcanist scales higher with magicka, and yet fatefarver does better with stamina, what does that mean?
It means that fatecarver is not the issue. Its the associated gear and synergy afforded by not having to weave.

Galeriano wrote: »

It is impossible. The only ways that could make it remotely possible would kill the game in longer run.

I see no evidence to back up this claim.

Galeriano wrote: »

In top leaderboard scores everyone is perfect or near perfect in his rotation. Otherwise he wouldn't be sitting at the top. [snip]

Not in combat. No one has a perfect rotation while dodging walls of fire and 1 shot mechanics, unless they are using macors which is a bannable offense.
BUT, if there are a small handful of players who play flawlessly, perfectly every time, every day, every encounter they represent less than .01% of tthe population and no game that ever balanced around the .01% ever did good.

It is better for arcanist to perform as it is (regarding magicka, I agree that daggers, medium armor, velothi ur mage need nerfed which will tone down stamina) for the disabled players, players with high ping etc. Becasue at the end of the day this game is about making money and you can rest asured that there is more money in casuals playing arcanist than hardcore playing arcanist.

In this regard, for the health of the game it would be foolish to nerf MAGICA arcanist.

Galeriano wrote: »

Like I already said in higher end runs, easier rotation on arcanist is not a important factor. This is why You will see lots of the same people at the top no matter what current meta class is. And belive me LA weaving is not that hard to do for everyone in higher end. It's becoming a habit that You don't even think about. Plenty of people can do it efficiently.

The vast majority of the time, a simper rotation is going to perform better. Very very few, if any are perfect with their weaving on vet hard mode boss fights. Any time weaving and a simpler rotation is implemented, you will see those people perform even better than they ususally do.

Galeriano wrote: »

Light attacks are now laughable portion of overall DPS compared to what they used to achieve. Their base dmg was nerfed, empower was nerfed, dmg scaling was capped, maesltrom destro reworked. People seem to not understand how producing DPS works. Assuming that theoretically there would be 2 players both being able to perfectly keep uptimes of every skill and use skill ideally withing GCD but one of them would be perfect at LA and other would be missing most of his LA, the difference in DPS between those two players would be like 4%. This is why every DD is now using velothi, because DPS gain from light attacks without velothi is noticably lower than DPS gain from wearing velothi. And just for the record arcanist is not free from LA weaving. For mastering the rotation he still needs it and if velothi wouldn't be a meta LA weaving would be a thing on every class including arcanist.

Fatecarver gets in the way of light attack weaving, you will lose DPS if you try weave with fatecarver unless you have a 10ms ping or are playing on a LAN.

Galeriano wrote: »

Stamina DDs were not even a thing worth considering in 1st year of game existance. There were many patches where magicka was dominating. Overall in 10 years long history of ESO I would say the time of stamina vs magicka reign in group PvE is split almost 50/50 with magicka setups taking the slight lead.

That is not my experience. Its been stamina dominated for the majority of its time in PVE and PVP.

Galeriano wrote: »

No, developer have no obligation to make everything equally strong. There is no law or rule that says he should and basic logic suggest that it's impossible.

This could be argued in court. And there are laws in other industries to ensure customers get the same value as other customers of the same product. Just because the video game industry has skirted around these laws (like gamble crates) does not mean they do not exist or that the fundamentals are not there.

Galeriano wrote: »

In oder to achieve that 5% balance margin one of the things that needs to be done is hefty nerf to beam.

Not for magicka arcanists. There is no reason for magicka arcanists to take this nerf.

Galeriano wrote: »

Choosing a sub optimal build is a thing. Like if You would run naked and with bare knuckles You would still claim it's optimal? It seems like You have issue with accepting the fact that magicka arcanist is sub optimal version of a class. Fact that You pick some setup when starting the game doesn't mean You can't optimise it later on to make it stronger when You get more knowledge. There is nothing wrong in running in sub optimal setup and it's not an insult for setup to be called sub optimal it's pretty logical that certain setups will be more optimal and certain ones won't. It's up to You wheter You want to optimise Your setup or not. Fact that You play mag arcanist because it's magicka doesn't change the fact that magicka arcanist is sub optimal version of a class. Literally every class have optimal and sub optimal version.

As a customer, someone who pays to access this product, I have, everyone has a rightful expectation that the class they choose to play will perform. This is not up for debate.

Galeriano wrote: »

Beam is an issue. Having an chanelled ranged AoE DoT ability that deals more dmg than single target ability combined with DoT tick while also being less than half of spammable ability cost is an issue. Magicka arcanist is already inferior to stamina arcanist. Nerf to beam can actually change that because then mag arcanist can start using runeblades+tentacular dread rotation that stam arcanist can't use. ZoS can even sweaten the deal and buff tentacular dread to make this rotation stronger than it is already although it's pretty strong anyway.

Not everyone wants to play melee. I play magicka for ranged and I play magicka because I hate stamina, I literally HATE the word stamina and the green bar. They do ZERO for me.
Magicka is offered as a different way to play and that is how I choose to play. Players who play magicka should be given the same level of respect as players who play stamina. The fact that ranged magicka has one weapon is indication enough that magicka players have been on the back burner for 10 years now.

Galeriano wrote: »

PvP is more about hybrids these days. Also I don't know why we are suddenly switching the goal post to PvP. Arcanist is doing pretty well there and he doesn't need a beam to be doing good. And properly build beam arcanist can demolish people in PvP if he knows how to find an opportunity to do so. From what I've seen in Your other thread about being taken down by nb in 3 seonds You don't seem to have lot of PvP experience yet so don't expect be doing extremly well in PvP. Everybody had to start somwhere.

I have massive amounts of PVP experience and frankly I am tired of you attacking me personally. And no, magicka arcanist are not doing well. Even Deltia and other PVP centric players say this with video evidence backing it up, and they do not recommend the playstyle and its becasue fatecarver does not hit the targets due to netcode/ping. WHICH is EXACTLY why nerfing fatecarver is not the solution, because it makes an already weak ability in pvp, weaker.

Galeriano wrote: »

yes class is a nerf, fatecarver is an issue and I have data to support my claims. Personal opinions have hard time competing with statistics and data.

No, daggers velothi ur mage, medium armor and stamina scaling is the issue. Without those, fatecarver does not perform well.

Galeriano wrote: »

If one class out of 7 have 50% population in group PvE, than yeah, game balance is at stake. Right now PvE can be basically described as arcanist vs rest of the world.

I ran 3 trials yesterday, theree was ONE arcanist out of the entire three runs. I rarely see them in PVP. PVP is dominated by templars, nightlbades, nightblades, nightblades, nightblades, sorcs and dragon knights.

Galeriano wrote: »

Belive me I would find plenty people who have less fun because boss fights are getting faster and more trivial. In fact this is one of the reasons group PvE is loosing popularity. Faster fights means less challenge. Less challenge means less room to mistakes and less room tomistakes means less room to improve and feel rewarded at the end. Fights are getting dull and boring especially when played with a class such as arcanist where You stand still and beam for majority of fight. Some people find everything being simplified and handled to them as fun, some people don't. Devs job is to find balance between those two groups.

This makes zero sense. The fact that people always want the meta classes, linking achievements before you get invited, require a certain amount of CP, etc etc etc etc etc all indicate that players are looking to down content as fast and as easy as possible.

[edited to remove quote]

Pixiepumpkin · February 11

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Why nerf a certain class or build in PvE? The issues with arcanist in PvP are different, some of those guys are so tanky and can do tons of damage too. There are only a few players I have seen that can do that, though.

You are free to play whichever you want. So make a stamina arcanist and enjoy it too. No one is stopping you. It only took me a few weeks to get mine trial-ready.

EDIT: typo

If you are replying to me (I am not sure), its because I simply can't stand stamina. Like, I have a legit aversion to stamina.

I hated rage classes in WOW, I have RARELY enjoyed melee classes and I was decimated when hunters went from mana to focus in wow.

I have never liked red resourse bars, yellow resource bars, or anything other than some version of blue. I like playing fantasy games as a magic damage dealer, magic tank or magic healer.

And I legitimately can't stand the color of the stamina bar. I know that sounds odd, but I just get icky feels when looking at it.

Funnily enough, my wife feels the same way. Neither of us have any interest in stamina in ESO. The only stamina toon I have is my farmer and that is because there are no magicka stealth sets that work for his stealth sprinting build.

katanagirl1 · February 11

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Why nerf a certain class or build in PvE? The issues with arcanist in PvP are different, some of those guys are so tanky and can do tons of damage too. There are only a few players I have seen that can do that, though.

You are free to play whichever you want. So make a stamina arcanist and enjoy it too. No one is stopping you. It only took me a few weeks to get mine trial-ready.

EDIT: typo

If you are replying to me (I am not sure), its because I simply can't stand stamina. Like, I have a legit aversion to stamina.

I hated rage classes in WOW, I have RARELY enjoyed melee classes and I was decimated when hunters went from mana to focus in wow.

I have never liked red resourse bars, yellow resource bars, or anything other than some version of blue. I like playing fantasy games as a magic damage dealer, magic tank or magic healer.

And I legitimately can't stand the color of the stamina bar. I know that sounds odd, but I just get icky feels when looking at it.

Funnily enough, my wife feels the same way. Neither of us have any interest in stamina in ESO. The only stamina toon I have is my farmer and that is because there are no magicka stealth sets that work for his stealth sprinting build.

No, it was a general comment, but still applies nonetheless.

I prefer stamina builds but I still have to use a staff backbar if I want max dps.

spartaxoxo · February 12

Okay I'll try to form an opinion based on the data from PC and not just what I personally experience in console, which admittedly doesn't give me a data driven view or one that does a ton of vet trials content. This is pulled from eso logs website. As I have never used this website, I may have errors.

Parses

Ranking for Top 10 Parses

Winner: Stam Sorc with 7 spots
Runner-Up: Stam Arc with 2 spots

Ranking for Top 100 Parses

Top 3 parses:
Stam Sorc: 144k
Mag Arc: 137k
Stam Sorc: 131k

Best Time: 2 minutes 25 seconds

Bottom 3 Parses in Top 100

Mag Cro 101k
Mag Plar 101k
Stam DK 101k

Worst Time: 3 Minutes 27 seconds

Time Difference between Best and Worst: 1 minute 2 seconds

Parses in General:

Stam Sorc Median: 88.54
Stam Arc Median: 83.5
Stam Plar Median: 83.37
Stam Den Median: 77.12
Mag Blade Median: 73.86
Mag Plar Median 73.5
Mag Sorc Median: 72.29
Stam DK Median: 70.68
Mag Arc Median: 70.09
Stam Blade Median: 67.85
Mag DK Median: 67.72
Mag Cro Median: 67.38
Mag Den Median: 66.85
Stam Cro Median: 63.15

Max Parses

Winner: Stam Sorc: 102.57
Runner-Up: Mag Arc: 98.12

Personal Conclusion:

The best class at the Target Dummy: Stamina Sorceror.

Stam Sorc dominated the top 10 and also had the best Median score. The median score is how most players are going to interact with the class, and at the median the difference between the top 5 classes is not crazy unless looking at Mag classes overall compared to stam classes. At that point, stam took 4/5 of the top 5 spots. And the 5th spot, the only mag class, is also the only one that doesn't round to at or above 80k. Ideally, all classes would be at 70k as that's the minimum number needed to feel decent in vet trials. 5 setups, including the entire Necromancer class, fail to meet that minimum standard, indicating that buffs are needed to underperforming classes. I remain unconvinced that any of the top classes are in need of nerfs based on this as while the minimum performance determines a player's ability to enter content, top performance on a dummy does not always translate top performance in dungeons or trials.

Trials

I am going to ignore the little dots and instead look at the max on the bar. I am doing this because I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) that's based on the highest individual parse noted, while the max bar is more so an aggregate score. If that is indeed the case, it should be excluded as too low a sample size. If I'm correct, then even the person who did it, it might be a personal best for them and not typical of their performance.

Sanity's Edge:

Median for Top 5 dps

Stam Arc: 54.89
Mag DK 54.17
Stam Plar: 54.50
Mag Plar 53.32
Mag Arc: 52.54

Winner: Stam Arc
Runner-Up: Mag Plar (by a hair)

Conclusion: The median score for the top 5 dps classes are all fairly close to one another. They are performing very closely. The top scores are fairly large in difference. Arcanist is heavily favored to be brought into the trials, which could be a factor in this discrepancy. But the difference in their performance at the Median does not justify such heavy favoring. The Median performance is a good class performance indicator as it's the least effected by perceptions of the top guilds and exceptionally talented individuals. Also, anyone able to do vet sanity's edge is a reasonably skilled player. However, the large discrepancy in top performance shouldn't be ignored. Stam Arc is quite ahead of the pack on this trial.

Dreadsail Reef

Median for Top 5 dps

Stamplar: 61.68
Stam Arc: 52.59
Mag Plar: 48.11
Mag DK: 48.71
Stam DK: 44.39

Winner: Stam Arc
Runner-Up: Stam Plar

Conclusion: The median score the top 5 dps aren't as close as before. The clear winner at the median range is the Stamina Templar. It pulls out significantly ahead of the next 4 dps. As for at the max, the winner becomes Stam Arc. And again, this is not close. It pulls way ahead of even the Stamplar, which is itself way ahead of all other classes. I listed Stam Arc as the winner here because of it dominating the max category, but for the median role, it's actually Stam Plar.

Rockgrove

Median for Top 5 dps

Stam Arc: 72.18
Stam Plar: 64.37
Mag Plar: 64.49
Mag DK: 62.76
Mag Arc: 59.29

Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc

Conclusion: The median score is once again not as close as in Sanity's edge. That trial is looking more and more balanced well for different classes to shine the more I look at these LOL. Stam Arc both sits at the top again, and also is significantly ahead of the other 4. Once again, Stam Arc and Stam Plar pull significantly ahead of the rest in the top 5 max. This time, it is Stam Plar that is significantly ahead of Stam Arc.

Kyne's Aegis

Median

Stam Plar: 75.20
Mag Plar: 64.44
Stam Arc: 62.78
Stam Sorc: 58.24
Stam DK: 55.43

Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc

Conclusion: Stamina Templar is the clear winner of this trial in terms of data captured. It had a median score well above the median scores of other classes, and also had a significantly better score at the max as well. Once again at the max, the second best was Stam Arc. When looking at the medium, Mag Plar pulls a bit ahead. This seems like a good trial for Templars based purely on this data (I am not going by personal experience in these trials, just by what the data is showing for damage to bosses in particular as of update 40).

Sunspire

Median

Stam Plar: 73.88
Stam Arc: 71.60
Mag Plar: 71.22
Mag DK: 62.09
Stam Sorc: 61.48

Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc

Conclusion: At the median, the Top 3 are pretty close, and then performance goes significantly down. This time the difference between runner-up and winner was not as pronounced. In general the top 3 perform notably better than the rest.

Cloud Rest +3

Median

Stam Plar: 43.56
Stam Arc: 41.67
Stam Cro: 40.38
Mag DK: 40.13
Stam Sorc: 37.94

Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc

Conclusion: At the median the class performance is again reasonably close between the top 5 classes. At the top, Stam plar outshines everything by quite a bit. Again, yes, I'm ignoring the dots.

Asylum Sanctorum

Median

Stam Plar: 55.02
Stam Arc: 49.61
Stam Sorc: 40.09
Stam DK: 37.67
Stam Blade: 37.38

Winner: Stam Arc
Runner-Up: Stam Blade

Conclusion: I only included this trial because its notable for having less adds than other trials. So, I wanted to see if it would be the case that Stam Arc dropped out of being such a top performing class. It did not. I don't think the adds have anything to do with. Top 5 at the median is again all over the place. Stam Arc is the best at the max and it's not close.

Trial Rankings

While this is a small sample size of players, it helps to see what the very best of the game looks at when determining how balanced a class is. I couldn't figure out how to view this as aggregate damage to bosses like with AS and CR. But I did notice that scoreboards in general had stam sorc overrepresented.

Cloud Rest

Top 10: 9 spots are Stam Arc, 9th place is a Mag Plar

Asylum Sanctorum

Top 10: All spots are Stam Arc

Overall, I see Stam Arc as consistently finding itself as a top performer, but that difference is not as large as it made it out to be in terms of actual performance. In fact, in some cases, Stam Templar did better. The top rankings and number of parses told a different story though. While the performance in the median and max were closer, Stam Arc dominated the rankings. But, also had way more opportunities to do so as it was heavily favored to be brought into trials. It reminds me of something a developer said in another game, to paraphrase, "Sometimes the perception of balance is more important than the actual balance itself."

I think the nerf is a good thing because Stam Arc is overperforming though. Mag Arc is not.

merpins · February 12

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Well made, thoughtful analysis. As I surmised, Arcanist isn't far ahead of other classes, and though its numbers may be slightly inflated, it's overall just favoritism. People like it, people are playing it, and so it's showing up everywhere. The new hotness that people like is being played. Is it overtuned? Very slightly. But it doesn't need a large nerf

Pixiepumpkin · February 12

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Okay I'll try to form an opinion based on the data from PC and not just what I personally experience in console, which admittedly doesn't give me a data driven view or one that does a ton of vet trials content. This is pulled from eso logs website. As I have never used this website, I may have errors.

Parses
Ranking for Top 10 Parses

Winner: Stam Sorc with 7 spots
Runner-Up: Stam Arc with 2 spots

Ranking for Top 100 Parses

Top 3 parses:
Stam Sorc: 144k
Mag Arc: 137k
Stam Sorc: 131k

Best Time: 2 minutes 25 seconds

Bottom 3 Parses in Top 100

Mag Cro 101k
Mag Plar 101k
Stam DK 101k

Worst Time: 3 Minutes 27 seconds

Time Difference between Best and Worst: 1 minute 2 seconds

Parses in General:

Stam Sorc Median: 88.54
Stam Arc Median: 83.5
Stam Plar Median: 83.37
Stam Den Median: 77.12
Mag Blade Median: 73.86
Mag Plar Median 73.5
Mag Sorc Median: 72.29
Stam DK Median: 70.68
Mag Arc Median: 70.09
Stam Blade Median: 67.85
Mag DK Median: 67.72
Mag Cro Median: 67.38
Mag Den Median: 66.85
Stam Cro Median: 63.15

Max Parses

Winner: Stam Sorc: 102.57
Runner-Up: Mag Arc: 98.12

Personal Conclusion:

The best class at the Target Dummy: Stamina Sorceror.

Stam Sorc dominated the top 10 and also had the best Median score. The median score is how most players are going to interact with the class, and at the median the difference between the top 5 classes is not crazy unless looking at Mag classes overall compared to stam classes. At that point, stam took 4/5 of the top 5 spots. And the 5th spot, the only mag class, is also the only one that doesn't round to at or above 80k. Ideally, all classes would be at 70k as that's the minimum number needed to feel decent in vet trials. 5 setups, including the entire Necromancer class, fail to meet that minimum standard, indicating that buffs are needed to underperforming classes. I remain unconvinced that any of the top classes are in need of nerfs based on this as while the minimum performance determines a player's ability to enter content, top performance on a dummy does not always translate top performance in dungeons or trials.

Trials
I am going to ignore the little dots and instead look at the max on the bar. I am doing this because I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) that's based on the highest individual parse noted, while the max bar is more so an aggregate score. If that is indeed the case, it should be excluded as too low a sample size. If I'm correct, then even the person who did it, it might be a personal best for them and not typical of their performance.

Sanity's Edge:

Median for Top 5 dps

Stam Arc: 54.89
Mag DK 54.17
Stam Plar: 54.50
Mag Plar 53.32
Mag Arc: 52.54

Winner: Stam Arc
Runner-Up: Mag Plar (by a hair)

Conclusion: The median score for the top 5 dps classes are all fairly close to one another. They are performing very closely. The top scores are fairly large in difference. Arcanist is heavily favored to be brought into the trials, which could be a factor in this discrepancy. But the difference in their performance at the Median does not justify such heavy favoring. The Median performance is a good class performance indicator as it's the least effected by perceptions of the top guilds and exceptionally talented individuals. Also, anyone able to do vet sanity's edge is a reasonably skilled player. However, the large discrepancy in top performance shouldn't be ignored. Stam Arc is quite ahead of the pack on this trial.

Dreadsail Reef

Median for Top 5 dps

Stamplar: 61.68
Stam Arc: 52.59
Mag Plar: 48.11
Mag DK: 48.71
Stam DK: 44.39

Winner: Stam Arc
Runner-Up: Stam Plar

Conclusion: The median score the top 5 dps aren't as close as before. The clear winner at the median range is the Stamina Templar. It pulls out significantly ahead of the next 4 dps. As for at the max, the winner becomes Stam Arc. And again, this is not close. It pulls way ahead of even the Stamplar, which is itself way ahead of all other classes. I listed Stam Arc as the winner here because of it dominating the max category, but for the median role, it's actually Stam Plar.

Rockgrove
Median for Top 5 dps

Stam Arc: 72.18
Stam Plar: 64.37
Mag Plar: 64.49
Mag DK: 62.76
Mag Arc: 59.29

Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc

Conclusion: The median score is once again not as close as in Sanity's edge. That trial is looking more and more balanced well for different classes to shine the more I look at these LOL. Stam Arc both sits at the top again, and also is significantly ahead of the other 4. Once again, Stam Arc and Stam Plar pull significantly ahead of the rest in the top 5 max. This time, it is Stam Plar that is significantly ahead of Stam Arc.

Kyne's Aegis

Median

Stam Plar: 75.20
Mag Plar: 64.44
Stam Arc: 62.78
Stam Sorc: 58.24
Stam DK: 55.43

Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc

Conclusion: Stamina Templar is the clear winner of this trial in terms of data captured. It had a median score well above the median scores of other classes, and also had a significantly better score at the max as well. Once again at the max, the second best was Stam Arc. When looking at the medium, Mag Plar pulls a bit ahead. This seems like a good trial for Templars based purely on this data (I am not going by personal experience in these trials, just by what the data is showing for damage to bosses in particular as of update 40).

Sunspire

Median

Stam Plar: 73.88
Stam Arc: 71.60
Mag Plar: 71.22
Mag DK: 62.09
Stam Sorc: 61.48

Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc

Conclusion: At the median, the Top 3 are pretty close, and then performance goes significantly down. This time the difference between runner-up and winner was not as pronounced. In general the top 3 perform notably better than the rest.

Cloud Rest +3

Median

Stam Plar: 43.56
Stam Arc: 41.67
Stam Cro: 40.38
Mag DK: 40.13
Stam Sorc: 37.94

Winner: Stam Plar
Runner-Up: Stam Arc

Conclusion: At the median the class performance is again reasonably close between the top 5 classes. At the top, Stam plar outshines everything by quite a bit. Again, yes, I'm ignoring the dots.

Asylum Sanctorum

Median

Stam Plar: 55.02
Stam Arc: 49.61
Stam Sorc: 40.09
Stam DK: 37.67
Stam Blade: 37.38

Winner: Stam Arc
Runner-Up: Stam Blade

Conclusion: I only included this trial because its notable for having less adds than other trials. So, I wanted to see if it would be the case that Stam Arc dropped out of being such a top performing class. It did not. I don't think the adds have anything to do with. Top 5 at the median is again all over the place. Stam Arc is the best at the max and it's not close.

Trial Rankings
While this is a small sample size of players, it helps to see what the very best of the game looks at when determining how balanced a class is. I couldn't figure out how to view this as aggregate damage to bosses like with AS and CR. But I did notice that scoreboards in general had stam sorc overrepresented.

Cloud Rest

Top 10: 9 spots are Stam Arc, 9th place is a Mag Plar

Asylum Sanctorum

Top 10: All spots are Stam Arc

Overall, I see Stam Arc as consistently finding itself as a top performer, but that difference is not as large as it made it out to be in terms of actual performance. In fact, in some cases, Stam Templar did better. The top rankings and number of parses told a different story though. While the performance in the median and max were closer, Stam Arc dominated the rankings. But, also had way more opportunities to do so as it was heavily favored to be brought into trials. It reminds me of something a developer said in another game, to paraphrase, "Sometimes the perception of balance is more important than the actual balance itself."

I think the nerf is a good thing because Stam Arc is overperforming though. Mag Arc is not.

And this is why the blanket nerf to fatecarver is unneccessary, the issues lie in daggers, velothi ur mage, stamina scaling, whatever the BIS trial gear set is and its synergy with stamina arcanist.

If this nerf goes through, which it probably will, magicka arcanist is going to be close to bottom of the barrel when you consider all the other classes are getting buffed.

@Galeriano You should study these numbers. HARD PROOF that magicka arcanist does not need a nerf, as I have been saying for post after post after post.

Pixiepumpkin · February 12

merpins wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Well made, thoughtful analysis. As I surmised, Arcanist isn't far ahead of other classes, and though its numbers may be slightly inflated, it's overall just favoritism. People like it, people are playing it, and so it's showing up everywhere. The new hotness that people like is being played. Is it overtuned? Very slightly. But it doesn't need a large nerf

And not just that, magicka does not deserve a nerf at all, especially knowing all the other classes are getting buffed.

This is going to make magicka arcainsts close to last in trials.

So much for "playing it your way".....

Galeriano · February 12

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

No it couldn't be as easily said to me. Ther is no direct paralel between base for Your and my opinion. I do not demand from developer for every build to be equall.

I never demanded it, but its a rightful expectation from a customer.

When ones purchases an MMORPG and there are 20 specilizations to play in game, there is a rightful expectation by the cutomer that regardless of what class they choose to play, that it will be useful while leveling, in PVP and PVE endgame.
That is no different than a customer having a rightful expection that their food will be cooked thoroughly and warm/hot.
That is no different than a customer having a rightful expectation that their brand new car will work 1 year from now....and in fact there are laws to ensure businesses do so. Just because those laws have not caught up with the video game industry does not mean the core tennant of the ideas changes.
As customers, we all purchase the game for the same cost, be it retail or on sale which are set by ZOS. We have a rightful expectation that our excperineces in game will be met on par with our peers.

Galeriano wrote: »

Magicka arcanist actually have alternative rotation at his disposal. It's a rotation based around runeblades and tentacular dread. It gives him similar single target as current beam rotation.

I never said mag and stam arcanist are on the same level DPS wise. I said they're pretty much the same when it comes to rotation and type of dmg done.

Outside of this quote, the crux of my argument in this entire conversation is that magicka does not deserve the nerf that is being applied to fatecarver because stamina is over performing. This has been the core of my conversation and yet in just about every instance of this discussion, you keep doubling down on the entire class NEEDING nerfed, when this is not the case for magicka.

Galeriano wrote: »

I would ask You to read my comments and check the context of Your messages they're responding to more carefully because lots of Your comments is driven by lack of understanding of what I said. As for arcanist class needs nerf.

I have read them thoroughly and I am in no misunderstadning. The fact is, MAGICKA Arcanist does not deserve the same nerf that is being applied to stamina arcanist. Magicka is not overperforming and in some cases its lower DPS than templar. In PVP, magicka arcanist is not even remotely close to being strong compared to nightlade, DK, templar, sorcs or warden.

Galeriano wrote: »

Fact that nerf will touch magicka arcanist is not a argument to stop nerfs to beam. That ability is just overloaded no matter mag or stam version of it. There is like 20+ different versions of class DD builds and You want for one of them to hold whole game balance a hostage? That sounds completly irrational.

And this is where I completely disagree. Magicka does not deserve the same nerf. ZOS is taking a scorched earth approach to this nerf vs a more creative approach and due to this Magicka arcanists are going to suffer.

As I have stated about 5 times now. The issue is not the arcanist class in and of itself. Its the pairing, the synergy between fatecarver, MEDIUM armor, STAMINA scaling, VELOTHI UR MAGE, DAGGERS, and the fact that the rotation is simple due to NO LIGHT ATTACK WEAVING.
The common denominator is stamina, not fatecarver. If that WAS the case (and its not) then magicka would be performing equally as well and yet it doesnt...and magicka has HIGHER scaling with base damage tooltip on the arcanist.

So if the base damage on the arcanist scales higher with magicka, and yet fatefarver does better with stamina, what does that mean?
It means that fatecarver is not the issue. Its the associated gear and synergy afforded by not having to weave.

Galeriano wrote: »

It is impossible. The only ways that could make it remotely possible would kill the game in longer run.

I see no evidence to back up this claim.

Galeriano wrote: »

In top leaderboard scores everyone is perfect or near perfect in his rotation. Otherwise he wouldn't be sitting at the top. [snip]

Not in combat. No one has a perfect rotation while dodging walls of fire and 1 shot mechanics, unless they are using macors which is a bannable offense.
BUT, if there are a small handful of players who play flawlessly, perfectly every time, every day, every encounter they represent less than .01% of tthe population and no game that ever balanced around the .01% ever did good.

It is better for arcanist to perform as it is (regarding magicka, I agree that daggers, medium armor, velothi ur mage need nerfed which will tone down stamina) for the disabled players, players with high ping etc. Becasue at the end of the day this game is about making money and you can rest asured that there is more money in casuals playing arcanist than hardcore playing arcanist.

In this regard, for the health of the game it would be foolish to nerf MAGICA arcanist.

Galeriano wrote: »

Like I already said in higher end runs, easier rotation on arcanist is not a important factor. This is why You will see lots of the same people at the top no matter what current meta class is. And belive me LA weaving is not that hard to do for everyone in higher end. It's becoming a habit that You don't even think about. Plenty of people can do it efficiently.

The vast majority of the time, a simper rotation is going to perform better. Very very few, if any are perfect with their weaving on vet hard mode boss fights. Any time weaving and a simpler rotation is implemented, you will see those people perform even better than they ususally do.

Galeriano wrote: »

Light attacks are now laughable portion of overall DPS compared to what they used to achieve. Their base dmg was nerfed, empower was nerfed, dmg scaling was capped, maesltrom destro reworked. People seem to not understand how producing DPS works. Assuming that theoretically there would be 2 players both being able to perfectly keep uptimes of every skill and use skill ideally withing GCD but one of them would be perfect at LA and other would be missing most of his LA, the difference in DPS between those two players would be like 4%. This is why every DD is now using velothi, because DPS gain from light attacks without velothi is noticably lower than DPS gain from wearing velothi. And just for the record arcanist is not free from LA weaving. For mastering the rotation he still needs it and if velothi wouldn't be a meta LA weaving would be a thing on every class including arcanist.

Fatecarver gets in the way of light attack weaving, you will lose DPS if you try weave with fatecarver unless you have a 10ms ping or are playing on a LAN.

Galeriano wrote: »

Stamina DDs were not even a thing worth considering in 1st year of game existance. There were many patches where magicka was dominating. Overall in 10 years long history of ESO I would say the time of stamina vs magicka reign in group PvE is split almost 50/50 with magicka setups taking the slight lead.

That is not my experience. Its been stamina dominated for the majority of its time in PVE and PVP.

Galeriano wrote: »

No, developer have no obligation to make everything equally strong. There is no law or rule that says he should and basic logic suggest that it's impossible.

This could be argued in court. And there are laws in other industries to ensure customers get the same value as other customers of the same product. Just because the video game industry has skirted around these laws (like gamble crates) does not mean they do not exist or that the fundamentals are not there.

Galeriano wrote: »

In oder to achieve that 5% balance margin one of the things that needs to be done is hefty nerf to beam.

Not for magicka arcanists. There is no reason for magicka arcanists to take this nerf.

Galeriano wrote: »

Choosing a sub optimal build is a thing. Like if You would run naked and with bare knuckles You would still claim it's optimal? It seems like You have issue with accepting the fact that magicka arcanist is sub optimal version of a class. Fact that You pick some setup when starting the game doesn't mean You can't optimise it later on to make it stronger when You get more knowledge. There is nothing wrong in running in sub optimal setup and it's not an insult for setup to be called sub optimal it's pretty logical that certain setups will be more optimal and certain ones won't. It's up to You wheter You want to optimise Your setup or not. Fact that You play mag arcanist because it's magicka doesn't change the fact that magicka arcanist is sub optimal version of a class. Literally every class have optimal and sub optimal version.

As a customer, someone who pays to access this product, I have, everyone has a rightful expectation that the class they choose to play will perform. This is not up for debate.

Galeriano wrote: »

Beam is an issue. Having an chanelled ranged AoE DoT ability that deals more dmg than single target ability combined with DoT tick while also being less than half of spammable ability cost is an issue. Magicka arcanist is already inferior to stamina arcanist. Nerf to beam can actually change that because then mag arcanist can start using runeblades+tentacular dread rotation that stam arcanist can't use. ZoS can even sweaten the deal and buff tentacular dread to make this rotation stronger than it is already although it's pretty strong anyway.

Not everyone wants to play melee. I play magicka for ranged and I play magicka because I hate stamina, I literally HATE the word stamina and the green bar. They do ZERO for me.
Magicka is offered as a different way to play and that is how I choose to play. Players who play magicka should be given the same level of respect as players who play stamina. The fact that ranged magicka has one weapon is indication enough that magicka players have been on the back burner for 10 years now.

Galeriano wrote: »

PvP is more about hybrids these days. Also I don't know why we are suddenly switching the goal post to PvP. Arcanist is doing pretty well there and he doesn't need a beam to be doing good. And properly build beam arcanist can demolish people in PvP if he knows how to find an opportunity to do so. From what I've seen in Your other thread about being taken down by nb in 3 seonds You don't seem to have lot of PvP experience yet so don't expect be doing extremly well in PvP. Everybody had to start somwhere.

I have massive amounts of PVP experience and frankly I am tired of you attacking me personally. And no, magicka arcanist are not doing well. Even Deltia and other PVP centric players say this with video evidence backing it up, and they do not recommend the playstyle and its becasue fatecarver does not hit the targets due to netcode/ping. WHICH is EXACTLY why nerfing fatecarver is not the solution, because it makes an already weak ability in pvp, weaker.

Galeriano wrote: »

yes class is a nerf, fatecarver is an issue and I have data to support my claims. Personal opinions have hard time competing with statistics and data.

No, daggers velothi ur mage, medium armor and stamina scaling is the issue. Without those, fatecarver does not perform well.

Galeriano wrote: »

If one class out of 7 have 50% population in group PvE, than yeah, game balance is at stake. Right now PvE can be basically described as arcanist vs rest of the world.

I ran 3 trials yesterday, theree was ONE arcanist out of the entire three runs. I rarely see them in PVP. PVP is dominated by templars, nightlbades, nightblades, nightblades, nightblades, sorcs and dragon knights.

Galeriano wrote: »

Belive me I would find plenty people who have less fun because boss fights are getting faster and more trivial. In fact this is one of the reasons group PvE is loosing popularity. Faster fights means less challenge. Less challenge means less room to mistakes and less room tomistakes means less room to improve and feel rewarded at the end. Fights are getting dull and boring especially when played with a class such as arcanist where You stand still and beam for majority of fight. Some people find everything being simplified and handled to them as fun, some people don't. Devs job is to find balance between those two groups.

This makes zero sense. The fact that people always want the meta classes, linking achievements before you get invited, require a certain amount of CP, etc etc etc etc etc all indicate that players are looking to down content as fast and as easy as possible.

[edited to remove quote][/quote]

Yeah and all classes are usefull while leveling. Don't expecty them to be equal in game end though. It's kinda common sense. Should I expect for running naked with bare knuckes be equall to evertyhing else?

Arcanist deserve a nerf beam specifically. That's it end of story. Making long arguments that it would hurt mag arcanist won't change reality.

You are misunderstanding some of my comment. Once again, arcanist deserves a nerf, beam specifically. Argument about mag arcanist reciving a nerf in the procces changes nothing.

Like I said multiple times mag arcanist have perfectly viable non beam rotation so even after beam nerf mag arcanist can still perform same numbers as he does right now just with lower AoE which is not a bad thing because AoE is too high on both mag and stam arcanist.

As I stated multiple time arcanist class is the issue with beam specifically. Every class have a good synergy with medium armor, dual wield, velothi etc. There is still LA weaving on arcanist. I reccomend You to watch any video from parse or trial. You will notice people that play arcanist are still light attack weave between every ability. Even with beam and velothi You still need to LA weave to maximize Your DPS. Not using weapon attacks in Your rotation is always a DPS loss. Weapon attacks are not just doing dmg they have also other functions like proccing enchantments and charging ultimate.

Common denominator is not stamina. It's a fact that medium armor have better passives for content than light armor and it goes from there. Scaling on abilities is the same for magicka and stamina. You can check all ability scaling here https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php

I see no evidence that it would be otherwise.

Yes also in combat. You would be suprised how many people is capable to still keep perfect weaving in real content and to still LA weave inbetween every ability cast. Like I said at some point it just becomes a habit You don't even think about to the poijt it's becoming hard not to do it. Of course if there are mechanics that cause You to stop parsing than You stop parsing but that does not mean You don't have perfect weaving throughout the fight.

You misunderstood what I said. I did not bring people from top of the leaderboardsa as a base to balance game around. I gave them as example that contradicts Your theory that arcanist is only strong because of simple rotation. Even people who can master any rotation and transfer it to real content choose arcanist simply because it's the strongest class in terms of raw power.

Even if ZoS would remove daggers, medium armor passives and velothi from the game arcanist would remain top class. He is just the strongest in terms of raw power.

In regard of the health of the game it's needed to nerf arcanist.

Saying that arcanist is strong in top leaderboard runs just because of his simple rotation is highly incorrect. Class is overloaded with strong secondary effects and passives and it have the strongest ability to ever exist in the form of fatecarver.

You will not loose DPS if trying to LA weave on arcanist. To maximize Your DPS You have to light attack weave even on arcanist with beam.

It's wierd because Your account info shows joining in october 2020 which is excatly when magicka regained domination in PvE from stamina setups mainly necros and was dominating for almost 2 years up to the middle of 2022. And than year 2022-2023 was basically stamina slowly taking over with mag DK still being the meta benefiting from hybrydisation and it's only after arcanist release when full blown stamina setups took over. Overall in ESO 10 years long history in PvE magicka was meta for longer than stamina.

You are free to sue ZoS to see wheter You're right or not.

There is a reason for a fatecarver to take a nerf, no matter magicka or stamina scaled one.

You kinda don't. You accepted terms of service which basically say that ZoS can do whatever they want to the game and Your account. The only thing You can expect is that ZoS is giving You acces to the game as long as they see fit.

That's Your personal preferences they have nopthing to do with overall state of game balance. Fact that You preffer some setup doesn't mean it cannot be touched by developer.

Am I not attacking You I just honestly don't see massive amount of PvP expereince in dying repeatedly to a nb spamming arterial burst which You were complaining about in other thread. I view myself as someone with somewhat decent PvP experience and I can easily deal with said nightblades so someone with massive amount of PvP experience in my eyes should be doing better than me. I never said magicka arcanist are doing great in PvP, currently in PvP lines between mag and stam are blurry due to hybrydisation. Deltia is more casual friendly focused so of course he won't be reccomending a playstyle that requires higher levels of practice and experience to be effective. Beam can be really strong in PvP when used properly.

Without daggers, velothi and medium armor fatecarver is still by far the strongest ability to ever exist in ESO. I have a challenge for You. Show me atleast one ability that can come close to fatecarver and I will admit that it's not as strong as I thought. For ability to be as strong as fatecarver it needs to be and AoE, ranged, very low cost, have a damage per second similar to a regular spammable, light attack and DoT tick combined and it needs to be able to be responsible for 40-50% overall single target DPS in a rotation that competes with other top DPS rotation. That's it. Just show me one other ability that can do it and I will admit beam is not that strong.

And I've been in 10 trials in last week and like 70-80% people in them were arcanists. Both Your story and mine bring nothing to the discussion contrary to larger sample on ESO logs which shows that arcanist have dominated PvE population. You rarely see arcanists in PvP? Interresting.

Or it suggest that people don't want to spend hours per week on teaching others basics that they could learn elsewhere before joining the trial. It may also suggest that the more boring game becomes the faster people who are participating in raids want to be done with it so they want to increase their chance to just get in and out without issues. Also there is a difference between farm run and progression run.

Galeriano · February 12

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Neither of us have any interest in stamina in ESO. The only stamina toon I have is my farmer and that is because there are no magicka stealth sets that work for his stealth sprinting build.

https://eso-sets.com/set/stormweavers-cavort

Ph1p · February 12

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Okay I'll try to form an opinion based on the data from PC and not just what I personally experience in console, which admittedly doesn't give me a data driven view or one that does a ton of vet trials content. This is pulled from eso logs website. As I have never used this website, I may have errors.

Hi spartaxoxo, very nice analysis and thanks for sharing! I would invite you to change the category from "Damage to bosses" to just plain "Damage" and check if the numbers change. As both sides of the argument have pointed out, Arcanists don't shine in single-target DPS against a single boss, but with their cleave/AOE potential against multiple targets. Since most bosses have adds, I think that would be a more accurate depiction of combat performance.

Here are the median numbers for Sanity's Edge across all difficulty levels, for example:

Veteran hard mode: Stan Arcanist is 6% higher than Magplar

Regular veteran: Stam Arcanist is 19% higher than Magplar

Normal: Stam Arcanist is 30% higher than Magden

Pixiepumpkin · February 12

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Neither of us have any interest in stamina in ESO. The only stamina toon I have is my farmer and that is because there are no magicka stealth sets that work for his stealth sprinting build.

https://eso-sets.com/set/stormweavers-cavort

Need ring of wild hunt for the build. so no

Pixiepumpkin · February 12

Galeriano wrote: »

Arcanist deserve a nerf beam specifically.

The data suggests otherwise, you can read it above.

Galeriano · February 12

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

@Galeriano You should study these numbers. HARD PROOF that magicka arcanist does not need a nerf, as I have been saying for post after post after post.

OP should study them more carefully in the first place. LIke dummy parse comparision is completly pointless since all sorcs out there are using preloaded overload cheese, arcanist that have the highest spot was cheesing vamp ulti in a house that makes it last forever and in genera succesfull parsers are not uploading their dummy parses. Also one thing is looking at data and the other is understanding why it looks the way it does.

The only thing that has been proven is that arcanist needs a nerf to beam specifically.

AnduinTryggva · February 12

RetPing wrote: »

People saying that Arcanist damage is fine, please tell me, how did you form your opinion?

I like to look at numbers to form mine, let's just take one example, Sanity Edge.

Probably just a case, right?
Well, let's took DR.

Oh, must just be anbother case, let's look at Rockgrove

Oh, no, not again.

And nightblades seem not even worth to mention in this kind of display. Wonder why.

Pixiepumpkin · February 12

Galeriano wrote: »

The only thing that has been proven is that arcanist needs a nerf to beam specifically.

Nope, ZERO evidence of it. If the core of the issue was the beam, as you suggest, then magicka would be doing AOK...and yet we see, that is not the case.

subarctic · February 12

“Yeah because killing everything like it's cake walk doesn't feel dull...”

Solution: make the hardmode version of vet content harder, so that normal vet DLCs are more accessible while Skinny Cheeks etc can enjoy HM and +1 to +3 in trials.

The rewards for completing the hardest content should be millions of gold, so that the best gamers can buy stuff in the crown store. Not that many +3 gamers in trials, so this will not ruin the business model of ESO.

Alternatively and much better: let the hardest content be accessible for average gamers if they have 10x more champion points than what Skinny Cheeks needs to finish the most difficult content.

LouisaB75 · February 12

I started with magicka arcanist and then stamina arcanist. I MUCH prefer magicka. I was constantly having resource issues with stamina, even with every point in stamina. I am going to keep at it since they are separate characters so it isn't a case of respeccing. Probably just my not being used to playing a stamina character. But I doubt I will ever not prefer my magicka arcanist.

If playing magicka arcanist locks me out of vet trials etc then so be it. Being hard of hearing and struggling with voice chat locks me out of even some normal ones anyway so what is another barrier thrown in my way?

vsrs_au · February 12

If anything should be nerfed for arcanist class, it's those overblown visual effects.

Pixiepumpkin · February 12

vsrs_au wrote: »

If anything should be nerfed for arcanist class, it's those overblown visual effects.

Agreed those could be toned down some. Its hard for me to even see what I am targeting with the blinding beam at times.

Daoin · February 12

LouisaB75 wrote: »

I am one of those who does not like weaving and love playing my arcanist. I finally felt useful in groups and not worried I was being carried and not pulling my weight.

I used armour sets to generate ultimate and my rotation consisted of rune blades, beam and the occasional heal, armour refresh and an interrupt.

My mythic alternates between the amulet, oakensoul and pale order, depending on what I am doing.

Right now my arcanist can just... and only just... manage vet Maelstrom Arena. I strongly suspect that when the nerf hammer hits I will be failing it repeatedly. Which is why I am grinding for the perfected items while I still can.

I am totally gutted that they are nerfing it, though I can't honestly say I am surprised.

from the little i read about the change (and dont PTS) all i see that needs to be done is put the cp to increase damage shield 15% back up to its former after change as i never cp'ed that but will now and with scribing however maybe something comes to just add the 7% straight back too. i dont really like spoilers but looking ahead i imagine adding scribing to the game is going to be very difficult for them, so far i see a stronger arcanist after the update in full than it is now, but if they would dumb down the amulets 99% loss on normal attack damgage to something like 75% would appreciate that

not even the dullest blade in the universe does 99% less damage than a sharp one and elements are well...always just elememts

Galeriano · February 12

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

The only thing that has been proven is that arcanist needs a nerf to beam specifically.

Nope, ZERO evidence of it. If the core of the issue was the beam, as you suggest, then magicka would be doing AOK...and yet we see, that is not the case.

Zero evidence for beam overperforming? Yeah sure if by zero evidence You mean whole ESO logs website.

And magicka arcanist is doing ok.

Pixiepumpkin · February 12

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

The only thing that has been proven is that arcanist needs a nerf to beam specifically.

Nope, ZERO evidence of it. If the core of the issue was the beam, as you suggest, then magicka would be doing AOK...and yet we see, that is not the case.

Zero evidence for beam overperforming? Yeah sure if by zero evidence You mean whole ESO logs website.

And magicka arcanist is doing ok.

i suggest you scroll up and read the fights. Your assertions are incorrect.
If it was the beam, as you suggest, magicka would be performing equally as well, but it does not (and magicka scales HIGHER with base attacks than stamina).

So....it can't be the beam now can it?

Galeriano · February 12

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Arcanist deserve a nerf beam specifically.

The data suggests otherwise, you can read it above.

Which data excatly? Because I can provide You with a data that suggest something completly else. Actually people did it in this thread already.

Pixiepumpkin · February 12

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Arcanist deserve a nerf beam specifically.

The data suggests otherwise, you can read it above.

Which data excatly? Because I can provide You with a data that suggest something completly else. Actually people did it in this thread already.

Scroll up, and no, the date the other person supplied showcases that if you include mobs, then arcanist pulls ahead....but if you nerf fatecarver not only does it lose on trash but also the boss fight.

ITs a double whammy.

And yet, magicka....still not performing as well as half the builds in game. Its literally middle of the road, adn does not need a nerf.

Fatecarver is not the issue. Lets word this a different way. Nerfing Fatecarver is NOT THE SOLUTION.