aspergalas4 wrote: »This whole philosophy of nerfing what's strong just makes the game more dull even when balance is achieved in the end, they really should just buff everything else across the board. Make every class and spell feel powerful when we are playing it, instead of every class feeling equally meh.
aspergalas4 wrote: »This whole philosophy of nerfing what's strong just makes the game more dull even when balance is achieved in the end, they really should just buff everything else across the board. Make every class and spell feel powerful when we are playing it, instead of every class feeling equally meh.
Yeah because killing everything like it's cake walk doesn't feel dull...
Overbuffing is as wrong or even worse than overnerfing stuff. If something is overperforming You don't bring everything else up to that one thing You nerf that one things to be in line with everything else.
Necrotech_Master wrote: »the current "adjustment" is barely a nerf, i dont even expect to notice the 7% drop in dmg on the beam
i think the reason why they are being cautious about the adjustment is they know that arcanist beam is the bread and butter of arcanist dps, and overall arc dps could very quickly go from OP to UP (underpowered) if the adjustment was too severe
It needs to be balanced with careful forethought. Arcanist's design itself, for DPS, is pretty obviously centered around accessibility. Fatecarver is an ability that basically makes it so you don't need to light attack weave properly. The fact that the class came out at the same time as Velothi-Ur tells me that this was an intentional design decision. Many players don't like to light attack weave, and have been enjoying heavy attack builds? Here's a class that makes it so you can do less light attack weaving, and still get end-game levels of damage.
This design comes with a flaw. It makes the class much easier than other classes. 50% of your damage comes from one skill, more than any other class. Is that really a flaw? No, but it makes the class' damage inflated. The damage floor is higher, but the ceiling isn't. You're going to be doing similar damage at end game as other classes, but it's just easier to get to that end game with arcanist, since the gear setup is just x + Deadly + Velothi + 1 pc Slimecraw. Deadly and Velothi and Slimecraw are easy to get. Then, you only need to learn the Arcanist rotation, which is pretty simple, especially when compared to other classes. Is this a bad thing? No, not at all. Sometimes I want to play something easier and fun, but still run a harder dungeon. Can't really do that with a heavy attack build, or at least for me it isn't as fun. Easier options are fine. Not every class needs to be Nightblade DPS after all.
That brings us to balancing. We can see that Arcanist is topping leaderboards, but that's not due to damage, that's due to aoe potential. The recent U41 week 1 patch notes are appropriate, the damage of Fatecarver was a bit high, and the shield it provided was too big. That's fine, but people still think the damage is too high. What can we do without jeopardizing the class itself?
1. Lower the damage of other abilities or sets that affect the class damage the most. This would be passives that are overperforming in Arcanist's kit, other skills in the kit that are pumping up the damage (Flail as an example is pretty overtuned), or Velothi-Ur. Other options would be outside sources of damage, the nerf to Hemorrhaging and Barbed Trap helps here, though this effects all classes so it won't see much of a difference by comparison. Nothing major, the class isn't doing too much damage as I stated before, but if it needs its damage lowered further, it can't be from Fatecarver, otherwise it will jeopardize the class.
2. Reduce the AOE potential of the class. Fatecarver is overperforming in leaderboards due to its AOE. So, make it so the damage goes down after the first creature, or first couple creatures, hit. You could even remove the shield from Pragmatic and make that one do full damage to enemies in an AOE, and give the damage shield in some way to Runeblades. Not an ideal solution, but it's an idea.
Do I really think Arcanist needs much of a nerf? No, not really. It feels great to use as-is, and its numbers seem to be inflated due to just how it works. But it probably shouldn't be dominating leaderboards as it is right now... But then again, if it wasn't, it would be a different class that's dominating leaderboards.
aspergalas4 wrote: »This whole philosophy of nerfing what's strong just makes the game more dull even when balance is achieved in the end, they really should just buff everything else across the board. Make every class and spell feel powerful when we are playing it, instead of every class feeling equally meh.
Necrotech_Master wrote: »the current "adjustment" is barely a nerf, i dont even expect to notice the 7% drop in dmg on the beam
i think the reason why they are being cautious about the adjustment is they know that arcanist beam is the bread and butter of arcanist dps, and overall arc dps could very quickly go from OP to UP (underpowered) if the adjustment was too severe
aspergalas4 wrote: »aspergalas4 wrote: »This whole philosophy of nerfing what's strong just makes the game more dull even when balance is achieved in the end, they really should just buff everything else across the board. Make every class and spell feel powerful when we are playing it, instead of every class feeling equally meh.
Yeah because killing everything like it's cake walk doesn't feel dull...
Overbuffing is as wrong or even worse than overnerfing stuff. If something is overperforming You don't bring everything else up to that one thing You nerf that one things to be in line with everything else.
Take the time to read what I said again, and don't retort to comments that you haven't read properly to avoid confusion. I never even mentioned buffing so everything is a cakewalk, I said buff to make us feel more powerful. So its more FUN. I don't want my spells to feel like they barely do anything, I want them to feel engaging and useful. Which is what nerfing prevents as you have to chip away at things until you just use something else. Which if we follow the philosophy of nerfing to achieve balance will feel just as dull anyway. You mitigate things being a cakewalk by providing harder content, then we get a sense of achievement with our FUN new buffed spells/abilities. See how that works?
I'd rather feel like I'm actually powerful while I defeat that super hard boss that provided a challenge even with my super OP abilities than feel meh about defeating that middling difficulty boss that was a slog because my spells have been diluted to balance them with others to the point I just use proc sets for a little excitement.
You mentioned buffing everything to arcanist level which basically would make things like a cake walk.
katanagirl1 wrote: »Arcanist has enabled me to keep doing trials since my trials group won’t allow Oakensorc. My hands just can’t do light weaving anymore because they hurt all the time and I can get by with fewer light attacks with the arcanist.
When I started running this toon in trials and parsing I felt the rotation was just what other classes should have. Not stupidly short skills like necro blastbones that have to keep being reapplied. On arcanist I can do the buffs and switch to the dps bar and flail and beam then when I switch back to the buff bar they are ready to reapply. Every class should have this. This is what balance should be, skills that do similar damage and have similar timers.
Buff other classes, don’t nerf arcanist. All of us gamers are getting older, after all.
People saying that Arcanist damage is fine, please tell me, how did you form your opinion?
I like to look at numbers to form mine, let's just take one example, Sanity Edge.
Probably just a case, right?
Well, let's took DR.
Oh, must just be anbother case, let's look at Rockgrove
Oh, no, not again.
aspergalas4 wrote: »aspergalas4 wrote: »This whole philosophy of nerfing what's strong just makes the game more dull even when balance is achieved in the end, they really should just buff everything else across the board. Make every class and spell feel powerful when we are playing it, instead of every class feeling equally meh.
Yeah because killing everything like it's cake walk doesn't feel dull...
Overbuffing is as wrong or even worse than overnerfing stuff. If something is overperforming You don't bring everything else up to that one thing You nerf that one things to be in line with everything else.
Take the time to read what I said again, and don't retort to comments that you haven't read properly to avoid confusion. I never even mentioned buffing so everything is a cakewalk, I said buff to make us feel more powerful. So its more FUN. I don't want my spells to feel like they barely do anything, I want them to feel engaging and useful. Which is what nerfing prevents as you have to chip away at things until you just use something else. Which if we follow the philosophy of nerfing to achieve balance will feel just as dull anyway. You mitigate things being a cakewalk by providing harder content, then we get a sense of achievement with our FUN new buffed spells/abilities. See how that works?
I'd rather feel like I'm actually powerful while I defeat that super hard boss that provided a challenge even with my super OP abilities than feel meh about defeating that middling difficulty boss that was a slog because my spells have been diluted to balance them with others to the point I just use proc sets for a little excitement.
Context of my comment was pretty easy to deduce. You mentioned buffing everything to arcanist level which basically would make things like a cake walk. It's certainly how it feels when doing content on arcanist atm when compared to other classes.
'There is a difference between spell being engaging and usefull and just dishing out toons of free dmg making fights dull and not hrilling at all. For many people this is NOT FUN. Just look how often threads about veteran overland are poping up on forum. People don't like when things are too hard but also don't like when the're too easy.
Find some old footage and compare dmg, survivability and sustain in earlier days to what we have now. Despite all that nerfs we still are getting increasingly more powerfull with every year. Why? Because every nerf is just in place to slower increase of power creep that is happening due to buffs we are getting. And we are getting more buffs than nerfs, people just have the natural tendency to give way more attention to something negative than to something positive. Without nerfs in place power creep would be through the roof lonmg time ago and it's even worse for the game than being a bit hard because for many people it makes things dull, boring, uninteresting and NOT FUN.
Harder content is becoming a cakewalk lately due to how overperforming arcanist is.
You can't be powerfull if boss is super hard at the same time. One is contradicting another. Super hard boss means that You are not powerfull, being powerfull means that boss is not super hard.
Pixiepumpkin wrote: »[
What is the scale of those bars? For all we know the lowest and highest could be a 5% difference.
Arcanist is fine and the nerfs on the PTR are unwarranted.
Pixiepumpkin wrote: »[
What is the scale of those bars? For all we know the lowest and highest could be a 5% difference.
Arcanist is fine and the nerfs on the PTR are unwarranted.
you can check yourself
https://www.esologs.com/
Il will not write in this thread anymore, not interestend in arguing with people that denies direct evidence .
If one class gets a lot more synergy out of sets or mythics, then the class should be adjusted down, not the gear. Otherwise that would negatively impact every other class as well.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »So nerf stamina arcanist, not magicka. But is this function solely due to a stamina arcanist, or the synergy with specifc gear sets? (Velothi-Ur cough cough)
(Stamina) Arcanists dominate across almost all trials, difficulty levels, and player percentiles. It's not just at the top of the leaderboards, where skill would be a valid argument. Even the average Arcanist numbers are higher than the average for other classes. Given that Arcanists are often recommended to and used by players with disabilities and less experience, it's safe to say that this is not just a skill gap.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »How much the damage you show is due to player skill vs less skilled players?
The exact scale differs from trial to trial, but they are not hiding a tiny difference. I had a systematic look at the numbers a few months ago and it's not a mere 5% difference between top and bottom. Even just between Arcanist and 2nd place, there was more than 10% difference in median damage on regular veteran difficulty. Between Arcanist and 5th place, it could be well above 30%.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »What is the scale of those bars? For all we know the lowest and highest could be a 5% difference.
Those are damage statistics across boss fights.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »How much of that is AOE vs boss fight? Arcanist definitely do well with AOE, no question and its due to fatecarver not tracking mobs which is also its bane (cant hit anything in PVP).
Every data point shows that Arcanist damage dealers do significantly better than every other class, regardless of trial, difficulty level, or player ability/experience. Besides, the upcoming nerf is 7% of beam damage, which is maybe 40-50% of overall damage output, so Arcanists are losing perhaps 3-4% in actual content... Hardly a nerf hammer that will gut the class.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Arcanist is fine and the nerfs on the PTR are unwarranted.
If one class gets a lot more synergy out of sets or mythics, then the class should be adjusted down, not the gear. Otherwise that would negatively impact every other class as well.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »So nerf stamina arcanist, not magicka. But is this function solely due to a stamina arcanist, or the synergy with specifc gear sets? (Velothi-Ur cough cough)(Stamina) Arcanists dominate across almost all trials, difficulty levels, and player percentiles. It's not just at the top of the leaderboards, where skill would be a valid argument. Even the average Arcanist numbers are higher than the average for other classes. Given that Arcanists are often recommended to and used by players with disabilities and less experience, it's safe to say that this is not just a skill gap.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »How much the damage you show is due to player skill vs less skilled players?The exact scale differs from trial to trial, but they are not hiding a tiny difference. I had a systematic look at the numbers a few months ago and it's not a mere 5% difference between top and bottom. Even just between Arcanist and 2nd place, there was more than 10% difference in median damage on regular veteran difficulty. Between Arcanist and 5th place, it could be well above 30%.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »What is the scale of those bars? For all we know the lowest and highest could be a 5% difference.Those are damage statistics across boss fights.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »How much of that is AOE vs boss fight? Arcanist definitely do well with AOE, no question and its due to fatecarver not tracking mobs which is also its bane (cant hit anything in PVP).Every data point shows that Arcanist damage dealers do significantly better than every other class, regardless of trial, difficulty level, or player ability/experience. Besides, the upcoming nerf is 7% of beam damage, which is maybe 40-50% of overall damage output, so Arcanists are losing perhaps 3-4% in actual content... Hardly a nerf hammer that will gut the class.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Arcanist is fine and the nerfs on the PTR are unwarranted.
One caveat though, that does have to be looked at: All those arguments above relate to PVE. I don't know about PVP so won't comment there.
Pixiepumpkin wrote: »and most of that is stamina arcanist, not magicka...the nerf affects magicka as well. So, the issue can not rely solely on the class itself. If the class was the issue then magicka should be performing exactly the same or a lot better.
spartaxoxo wrote: »You mentioned buffing everything to arcanist level which basically would make things like a cake walk.
Arcanist is already performing close to the other classes, so I don't agree that pushing the ones that aren't would suddenly make everything a cake walk. Necromancer doesn't just feel bad to play because it isn't as good as Arc or DK. It feels bad to play in general.
spartaxoxo wrote: »You mentioned buffing everything to arcanist level which basically would make things like a cake walk.
Arcanist is already performing close to the other classes, so I don't agree that pushing the ones that aren't would suddenly make everything a cake walk. Necromancer doesn't just feel bad to play because it isn't as good as Arc or DK. It feels bad to play in general.
In what world arcanist is performing close to the other classes? It have on average higher single target, way higher AoE that is applied passively, better survivability, way better sustain, way simplier rotation, way higher variety of sets to pick from etc.
Arcanist has left other classes way behind. This is not a coincidence that first time in ESO history one class have similar population in all difficulty modes of group content than all the other classes combined.
Does this really sound like something that would happen when a class is "performing close to the other classes"? We always had metas and always specific class was at the top but never top class was dominating so much.
Pixiepumpkin wrote: »[
What is the scale of those bars? For all we know the lowest and highest could be a 5% difference.
Arcanist is fine and the nerfs on the PTR are unwarranted.
you can check yourself
https://www.esologs.com/
Il will not write in this thread anymore, not interestend in arguing with people that denies direct evidence .