If you're gonna nerf Arcanist DPS...

ceruulean · February 9

Yeah we all know it's the overturned AoE and the overturned shield that needs nerf. ZoS already nerfed the shield in PTS, but decided to nerf Fatecarver and yet still let it have its ridiculous cleave. I would rather the devs revert the 7% smg nerf but reduce AoE damage by 50% to additional enemies, just like templar's jabs. The arcanist paystyle and rotation is ok, just needs a little buff to the Runeblades + Tentacular Dread alternative so it's not only beam. Right now class is super safe and has almost no consequences for playing rambo.

Also arcanist dominates in dungeons because of its quality of life. Has extra crit DMG, DMG passives, sustain passives, too much support debuffs and buffs. It's more expensive to play templar and necro because they need pots to source Major Brutality/Sorcery whereas so many arcanists just use trash pots or flat out admit they dont use pots at all. I don't really think that's fair, but meh. Nerf the cleave first. I can live with the rest of this overloaded class.

Aa high level play, everyone uses pots so less of a concern. In a trial the buffs are shared so the DPS disparity isn't that bad. Dragonknight, sorcerer, templar can outparse single target depending on luck and other factors.

Vulkunne · February 9

Yeah and nerf Arcanist CC while we're at it. Hit the dmg and CC, get all that [snip] out of there in one fell swoop.

[edited for minor baiting]

I wish you guys covered Necromancer and Templar like you do the Arcanist. It seems no one can talk about how overpowered the damage and CC from this class really is. I'm just sick of dealing with them literally breaking down gameplay completely on things like Battlegrounds. Its just exact same thing that happened when Wardens came out, there was just no dealing with them. So between the damage, constant long and hard CC as well as all the special effects which happen and I have no idea what's going on cause I can't see my character during that time, it does leave some of us not happy with the Arcanist and even a little agitated cause they will not admit their class has its faults whenever any talk is brought up about fixing it. That to me is something more than just being 'problematic'.

Vulkunne · February 9

Jestir wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

You mentioned buffing everything to arcanist level which basically would make things like a cake walk.

Arcanist is already performing close to the other classes, so I don't agree that pushing the ones that aren't would suddenly make everything a cake walk. Necromancer doesn't just feel bad to play because it isn't as good as Arc or DK. It feels bad to play in general.

In what world arcanist is performing close to the other classes? It have on average higher single target, way higher AoE that is applied passively, better survivability, way better sustain, way simplier rotation, way higher variety of sets to pick from etc.

Arcanist has left other classes way behind. This is not a coincidence that first time in ESO history one class have similar population in all difficulty modes of group content than all the other classes combined.

Does this really sound like something that would happen when a class is "performing close to the other classes"? We always had metas and always specific class was at the top but never top class was dominating so much.

While it does significantly over perform when it comes to AOE damage and to a lesser extent survivability (combination of fate carver shield and tentacle spammable healing), it is going to be a popular pick because for the first time we finally have a class that gives an easy to understand and executable way to play.

While yes Abyssal impact needs it's power spread around elsewhere in the kit (probably into rune blades ) and rune carver needs a jabs or silver shards like less-damage-past-x-enemy those simple changes should fix both of those issues listed above.

There is no reason to completely destroy the class for the many many people who love the class. Arcanist is also probably the first time in years that a majority of people would say that the devs got something right

But your class is destroying everyone else. Like majorly.

gamergirldk · February 9

Speak about overkill, it is a minor tweak, the class will still kick ass in every aspect of the game.

merpins · February 9

gamergirldk wrote: »

Speak about overkill, it is a minor tweak, the class will still kick ass in every aspect of the game.

This thread is about future nerfs to the class, not about the 7% damage and shield nerf. I'm saying if more nerfs come in the future, it should be to its AOE potential and not to its damage. It's middle of the pack in terms of damage at end-game, but its AOE is so high that it seems like it's out performing other classes in leaderboard content, like boss damage (when it isn't). I'm worried this will translate as the class being too strong DPS wise, which many players seem to think is the case, when what's really happening is it's doing a lot of damage to multiple enemies.

Galeriano · February 9

merpins wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

[
What is the scale of those bars? For all we know the lowest and highest could be a 5% difference.
Arcanist is fine and the nerfs on the PTR are unwarranted.

you can check yourself
https://www.esologs.com/

Il will not write in this thread anymore, not interestend in arguing with people that denies direct evidence .

This site shows DPS during boss fights. It doesn't show sources of DPS, and if you're attacking more mobs than just the boss. Arcanist is performing higher than other classes due to its high AOE damage that's also its main single target spammable. If you just look at dps against single entities, you'll find it's pretty comparable. I mean obviously, the single target Nightblade isn't going to get as high of a DPS score as an arcanist during a boss that summons ads. Parses are more valuable in calculating DPS comparisons in this instance than dungeon and trial tracking data.

Look at the popular builds and their parses. Stam arcanist builds are between 130k and 140k dps, though leaning towards 130. There are other class builds that are higher than that (some significantly higher), but on average, most classes are around there. Some are a bit lower, but those need to be addressed and even buffed (necro, stam warden, magplar...). This means the DPS isn't performing higher than other classes. It's the AOE that is.

This website also have plenty of filters where You can select what do You want to see specifically including single target DPS on boss. Guess which class have overwlehming lead in single target DPS on boss in almost every fight? Suprise, suprise it's arcanist. This class in majority of boss fights still do more single target DPS just on boss than other classes, often overwhelmingly more. And don't even get me started on fights where Azureblight can be used because in those arcanist very often obliterates other classes in single target DPS. Saying that arcanist is just good because of his AoE is very inaccurate, he is holding his ground very well also in single target DPSnumbers.

I assume You are reffering to dummy parses which long ago have lost their reliability. I don't know where did You get that 140k for necromancer, currently best parsers struggle to break 130k on it. The only class that can break 140k on a dummy is sorc and it's only because of preloaded overload cheese that have no use in real content. Arcanist on a dummy is actually in the higher end. Only class that can realiably beat him (excluding cheesed sorc parse) is a templar. That is all changing in real content though due to azureblight set. This set is completly useless on a dummy but in real boss fights whenever there are additional adds. Arcanist thanks to the great synergy that beam have with this set can dish out tons of additional dmg pushing both his AoE and single target above the other classes. At the end of the day arcanist DPS is performing higher than other classes in both single target and AoE.

Just to visualize to You what I am talking about here is a single target DPS of person with top parse on last boss in vSE HM. Let me say this once again this is a pure single target DPS on boss not overall DPS including AoE on adds.

merpins · February 9

Galeriano wrote: »

Okay lol. Then what you're saying is Asureblight is overtuned, not Arcanist. "Pure single target dps" lol, azureblight proc is based on AOE, so again, this is misleading. this is also why templar is pretty high, it does good AOE damage as well and procs azureblight.

Also, Parses are fine and reliable when it comes to calculating the standard. Yes, you can cheese it and inflate numbers. But Arcanist isn't being inflated there. It's being inflated in dungeons... Because of Azureblight.

Also, I'm going to quote myself here when it comes to Necro:
"Some are a bit lower, but those need to be addressed and even buffed (necro, stam warden, magplar...)."
I didn't say Necro was performing well. I was saying necro isnt and needs a buff.

Pixiepumpkin · February 9

Galeriano wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

[
What is the scale of those bars? For all we know the lowest and highest could be a 5% difference.
Arcanist is fine and the nerfs on the PTR are unwarranted.

you can check yourself
https://www.esologs.com/

Il will not write in this thread anymore, not interestend in arguing with people that denies direct evidence .

This site shows DPS during boss fights. It doesn't show sources of DPS, and if you're attacking more mobs than just the boss. Arcanist is performing higher than other classes due to its high AOE damage that's also its main single target spammable. If you just look at dps against single entities, you'll find it's pretty comparable. I mean obviously, the single target Nightblade isn't going to get as high of a DPS score as an arcanist during a boss that summons ads. Parses are more valuable in calculating DPS comparisons in this instance than dungeon and trial tracking data.

Look at the popular builds and their parses. Stam arcanist builds are between 130k and 140k dps, though leaning towards 130. There are other class builds that are higher than that (some significantly higher), but on average, most classes are around there. Some are a bit lower, but those need to be addressed and even buffed (necro, stam warden, magplar...). This means the DPS isn't performing higher than other classes. It's the AOE that is.

This website also have plenty of filters where You can select what do You want to see specifically including single target DPS on boss. Guess which class have overwlehming lead in single target DPS on boss in almost every fight? Suprise, suprise it's arcanist. This class in majority of boss fights still do more single target DPS just on boss than other classes, often overwhelmingly more. And don't even get me started on fights where Azureblight can be used because in those arcanist very often obliterates other classes in single target DPS. Saying that arcanist is just good because of his AoE is very inaccurate, he is holding his ground very well also in single target DPSnumbers.

I assume You are reffering to dummy parses which long ago have lost their reliability. I don't know where did You get that 140k for necromancer, currently best parsers struggle to break 130k on it. The only class that can break 140k on a dummy is sorc and it's only because of preloaded overload cheese that have no use in real content. Arcanist on a dummy is actually in the higher end. Only class that can realiably beat him (excluding cheesed sorc parse) is a templar. That is all changing in real content though due to azureblight set. This set is completly useless on a dummy but in real boss fights whenever there are additional adds. Arcanist thanks to the great synergy that beam have with this set can dish out tons of additional dmg pushing both his AoE and single target above the other classes. At the end of the day arcanist DPS is performing higher than other classes in both single target and AoE.

Just to visualize to You what I am talking about here is a single target DPS of person with top parse on last boss in vSE HM. Let me say this once again this is a pure single target DPS on boss not overall DPS including AoE on adds.

Now do it for magicka arcanists, not stamina.

The issue is not the class, its the synergy with medium armor, daggers, velothi ur mage. Magicka arcanists do not need a nerf but are getting the same nerf as stamina.

Pixiepumpkin · February 9

Ph1p wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

and most of that is stamina arcanist, not magicka...the nerf affects magicka as well. So, the issue can not rely solely on the class itself. If the class was the issue then magicka should be performing exactly the same or a lot better.

Well, at least we seem to finally agree that stamina Arcanists specifically are significantly stronger than any other build, including their magicka counterparts... Thanks for the discussion!

No, I never said that. As I said before, its synergy with certain gear....not the class in and of itself. If it were the class, we'd see magicka performing just as well, but its not.

Silaf · February 9

Quite francly all classes should do more or less the same dps to have a balanced game. Arcanist definitly need to be nerfed more.

The developers promised this game will not be pay to win and i'm supporting it with eso+ since beta.
Keep your promise zenimax.

Pixiepumpkin · February 9

Silaf wrote: »

Quite francly all classes should do more or less the same dps to have a balanced game. Arcanist definitly need to be nerfed more.

The developers promised this game will not be pay to win and i'm supporting it with eso+ since beta.
Keep your promise zenimax.

Correction. Velothi Ur mage, Daggers, medium armor and god knows what other set stamina run, but those are the culprits, not the class in and of itself as evidence that magicka arcanists are not doing as well and are "balanced" or worse than many other "specs" in game.

Allowing the nerf to go through might bring stamina in line, but it will move magicka farther down the pole...affirming that the decision to nerf the class, is the incorrect one.

Galeriano · February 10

merpins wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Okay lol. Then what you're saying is Asureblight is overtuned, not Arcanist. "Pure single target dps" lol, azureblight proc is based on AOE, so again, this is misleading. this is also why templar is pretty high, it does good AOE damage as well and procs azureblight.

Also, Parses are fine and reliable when it comes to calculating the standard. Yes, you can cheese it and inflate numbers. But Arcanist isn't being inflated there. It's being inflated in dungeons... Because of Azureblight.

Also, I'm going to quote myself here when it comes to Necro:
"Some are a bit lower, but those need to be addressed and even buffed (necro, stam warden, magplar...)."
I didn't say Necro was performing well. I was saying necro isnt and needs a buff.

Azureblight is not overtuned. Beam is. Single target is a single target no matter what's the source of it was. Do You also exclude all AoE abilities like blockade and sets like whorl or pillar because they're an AoE? Screen I linked still shows dmg done purely to a boss by all players. It is single target DPS fact it comes also from AoE abilities and sets really doesn't change anything. Arcanist AoE is also his single target and both are very high.

But if You have such a huge issue with azureblight You can check every fight where it cannot be used and You will still find that arcanists are usually doing the highest single target DPS on bosses just occasionally being outparsed by templars if execute phase is long enough (that is also limiting factor for how many templars can be in the group because at some point they will be stealing execute DPS from each other). Here for example is last boss in vRG HM where azureblight is not being used. That is the fastest fight registered in U40.

Oh and fastest fight ever recorded in this boss fight which happened in U39 also have arcanist at top single target DPS. Still no Azureblight.

Let's stop pretending that arcanist is just good at AoE and his single target is completly fine. It's a common misconception people are getting from looking too much into dummy parses, not understanding the difference between dummy and real content. There are still things that give arcanist slight edge in real content that won't be as noticable on a dummy. All the data available shows beyond shadow of a doubt that arcanist is also a very strong in terms of single target DPS.

If parses would be fine and reliable than bow templar should be popular because that is a setup with the highest dummy parse (excluding stamsorc cheese). Like I already said even without azureblight arcanist still dominates in single target. Making that set an escape goat argument really won't change the reality. Remove azureblight from the game and arcanist will be still a top dog and it would potentially hurt other classes that could get some reasonable DPS increase from that set.

Galeriano · February 10

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Silaf wrote: »

Quite francly all classes should do more or less the same dps to have a balanced game. Arcanist definitly need to be nerfed more.

The developers promised this game will not be pay to win and i'm supporting it with eso+ since beta.
Keep your promise zenimax.

Correction. Velothi Ur mage, Daggers, medium armor and god knows what other set stamina run, but those are the culprits, not the class in and of itself as evidence that magicka arcanists are not doing as well and are "balanced" or worse than many other "specs" in game.

Allowing the nerf to go through might bring stamina in line, but it will move magicka farther down the pole...affirming that the decision to nerf the class, is the incorrect one.

Magicka arcanist actually have alternative rotation at his disposal. It's a rotation based around runeblades and tentacular dread. It gives him similar single target as current beam rotation.

Magicka arcanist is also not an exception when it comes to mag version of a class being weaker than stam version. The issue is not class specific and is more tied to universal things like specific sets, passives etc. Generally game is favouring stamina oriented semi hybrid setups atm.

Galeriano · February 10

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

[
What is the scale of those bars? For all we know the lowest and highest could be a 5% difference.
Arcanist is fine and the nerfs on the PTR are unwarranted.

you can check yourself
https://www.esologs.com/

Il will not write in this thread anymore, not interestend in arguing with people that denies direct evidence .

This site shows DPS during boss fights. It doesn't show sources of DPS, and if you're attacking more mobs than just the boss. Arcanist is performing higher than other classes due to its high AOE damage that's also its main single target spammable. If you just look at dps against single entities, you'll find it's pretty comparable. I mean obviously, the single target Nightblade isn't going to get as high of a DPS score as an arcanist during a boss that summons ads. Parses are more valuable in calculating DPS comparisons in this instance than dungeon and trial tracking data.

Look at the popular builds and their parses. Stam arcanist builds are between 130k and 140k dps, though leaning towards 130. There are other class builds that are higher than that (some significantly higher), but on average, most classes are around there. Some are a bit lower, but those need to be addressed and even buffed (necro, stam warden, magplar...). This means the DPS isn't performing higher than other classes. It's the AOE that is.

This website also have plenty of filters where You can select what do You want to see specifically including single target DPS on boss. Guess which class have overwlehming lead in single target DPS on boss in almost every fight? Suprise, suprise it's arcanist. This class in majority of boss fights still do more single target DPS just on boss than other classes, often overwhelmingly more. And don't even get me started on fights where Azureblight can be used because in those arcanist very often obliterates other classes in single target DPS. Saying that arcanist is just good because of his AoE is very inaccurate, he is holding his ground very well also in single target DPSnumbers.

I assume You are reffering to dummy parses which long ago have lost their reliability. I don't know where did You get that 140k for necromancer, currently best parsers struggle to break 130k on it. The only class that can break 140k on a dummy is sorc and it's only because of preloaded overload cheese that have no use in real content. Arcanist on a dummy is actually in the higher end. Only class that can realiably beat him (excluding cheesed sorc parse) is a templar. That is all changing in real content though due to azureblight set. This set is completly useless on a dummy but in real boss fights whenever there are additional adds. Arcanist thanks to the great synergy that beam have with this set can dish out tons of additional dmg pushing both his AoE and single target above the other classes. At the end of the day arcanist DPS is performing higher than other classes in both single target and AoE.

Just to visualize to You what I am talking about here is a single target DPS of person with top parse on last boss in vSE HM. Let me say this once again this is a pure single target DPS on boss not overall DPS including AoE on adds.

Now do it for magicka arcanists, not stamina.

The issue is not the class, its the synergy with medium armor, daggers, velothi ur mage. Magicka arcanists do not need a nerf but are getting the same nerf as stamina.

The issue is the class. Every class have acces to the same gear, weapons and mythics and somehow it's arcanist that is dominating almost everywhere.

Almost every class right now have a mag version weaker than stamina oriented hybrid, arcanist is not some single exception here.

katanagirl1 · February 10

LouisaB75 wrote: »

I am one of those who does not like weaving and love playing my arcanist. I finally felt useful in groups and not worried I was being carried and not pulling my weight.

I used armour sets to generate ultimate and my rotation consisted of rune blades, beam and the occasional heal, armour refresh and an interrupt.

My mythic alternates between the amulet, oakensoul and pale order, depending on what I am doing.

Right now my arcanist can just... and only just... manage vet Maelstrom Arena. I strongly suspect that when the nerf hammer hits I will be failing it repeatedly. Which is why I am grinding for the perfected items while I still can.

I am totally gutted that they are nerfing it, though I can't honestly say I am surprised.

Oh I took my arcanist to vMA…couldn’t get past round 3 from all the incoming damage. I can just barely get my Oakensorc to complete it.

It takes me a while for my hand to recover from even the Oakensorc runs, and all the other content that I do, so I will probably never complete the stickerbook.

Sakiri · February 10

Tell that to trials groups that only want arcanist dps.

I agree, buff oakensorc.

Pixiepumpkin · February 10

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

[
What is the scale of those bars? For all we know the lowest and highest could be a 5% difference.
Arcanist is fine and the nerfs on the PTR are unwarranted.

you can check yourself
https://www.esologs.com/

Il will not write in this thread anymore, not interestend in arguing with people that denies direct evidence .

This site shows DPS during boss fights. It doesn't show sources of DPS, and if you're attacking more mobs than just the boss. Arcanist is performing higher than other classes due to its high AOE damage that's also its main single target spammable. If you just look at dps against single entities, you'll find it's pretty comparable. I mean obviously, the single target Nightblade isn't going to get as high of a DPS score as an arcanist during a boss that summons ads. Parses are more valuable in calculating DPS comparisons in this instance than dungeon and trial tracking data.

Look at the popular builds and their parses. Stam arcanist builds are between 130k and 140k dps, though leaning towards 130. There are other class builds that are higher than that (some significantly higher), but on average, most classes are around there. Some are a bit lower, but those need to be addressed and even buffed (necro, stam warden, magplar...). This means the DPS isn't performing higher than other classes. It's the AOE that is.

This website also have plenty of filters where You can select what do You want to see specifically including single target DPS on boss. Guess which class have overwlehming lead in single target DPS on boss in almost every fight? Suprise, suprise it's arcanist. This class in majority of boss fights still do more single target DPS just on boss than other classes, often overwhelmingly more. And don't even get me started on fights where Azureblight can be used because in those arcanist very often obliterates other classes in single target DPS. Saying that arcanist is just good because of his AoE is very inaccurate, he is holding his ground very well also in single target DPSnumbers.

I assume You are reffering to dummy parses which long ago have lost their reliability. I don't know where did You get that 140k for necromancer, currently best parsers struggle to break 130k on it. The only class that can break 140k on a dummy is sorc and it's only because of preloaded overload cheese that have no use in real content. Arcanist on a dummy is actually in the higher end. Only class that can realiably beat him (excluding cheesed sorc parse) is a templar. That is all changing in real content though due to azureblight set. This set is completly useless on a dummy but in real boss fights whenever there are additional adds. Arcanist thanks to the great synergy that beam have with this set can dish out tons of additional dmg pushing both his AoE and single target above the other classes. At the end of the day arcanist DPS is performing higher than other classes in both single target and AoE.

Just to visualize to You what I am talking about here is a single target DPS of person with top parse on last boss in vSE HM. Let me say this once again this is a pure single target DPS on boss not overall DPS including AoE on adds.

Now do it for magicka arcanists, not stamina.

The issue is not the class, its the synergy with medium armor, daggers, velothi ur mage. Magicka arcanists do not need a nerf but are getting the same nerf as stamina.

The issue is the class. Every class have acces to the same gear, weapons and mythics and somehow it's arcanist that is dominating almost everywhere.

Almost every class right now have a mag version weaker than stamina oriented hybrid, arcanist is not some single exception here.

Which is proof that the issue is stamina gear, mythics, etc etc. Stamina in and of itself is overtuned.

But the reason so many arcanist pull ahead is not because of the inherent damage, its the fact that people do not have to weave light attacks which are harmed by ping. Simpler rotations (like the arcanist has) will just about always do better becasue there is less chance for error.

Same with HA builds, same with jesus beam.

Galeriano · February 10

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

[
What is the scale of those bars? For all we know the lowest and highest could be a 5% difference.
Arcanist is fine and the nerfs on the PTR are unwarranted.

you can check yourself
https://www.esologs.com/

Il will not write in this thread anymore, not interestend in arguing with people that denies direct evidence .

This site shows DPS during boss fights. It doesn't show sources of DPS, and if you're attacking more mobs than just the boss. Arcanist is performing higher than other classes due to its high AOE damage that's also its main single target spammable. If you just look at dps against single entities, you'll find it's pretty comparable. I mean obviously, the single target Nightblade isn't going to get as high of a DPS score as an arcanist during a boss that summons ads. Parses are more valuable in calculating DPS comparisons in this instance than dungeon and trial tracking data.

Look at the popular builds and their parses. Stam arcanist builds are between 130k and 140k dps, though leaning towards 130. There are other class builds that are higher than that (some significantly higher), but on average, most classes are around there. Some are a bit lower, but those need to be addressed and even buffed (necro, stam warden, magplar...). This means the DPS isn't performing higher than other classes. It's the AOE that is.

This website also have plenty of filters where You can select what do You want to see specifically including single target DPS on boss. Guess which class have overwlehming lead in single target DPS on boss in almost every fight? Suprise, suprise it's arcanist. This class in majority of boss fights still do more single target DPS just on boss than other classes, often overwhelmingly more. And don't even get me started on fights where Azureblight can be used because in those arcanist very often obliterates other classes in single target DPS. Saying that arcanist is just good because of his AoE is very inaccurate, he is holding his ground very well also in single target DPSnumbers.

I assume You are reffering to dummy parses which long ago have lost their reliability. I don't know where did You get that 140k for necromancer, currently best parsers struggle to break 130k on it. The only class that can break 140k on a dummy is sorc and it's only because of preloaded overload cheese that have no use in real content. Arcanist on a dummy is actually in the higher end. Only class that can realiably beat him (excluding cheesed sorc parse) is a templar. That is all changing in real content though due to azureblight set. This set is completly useless on a dummy but in real boss fights whenever there are additional adds. Arcanist thanks to the great synergy that beam have with this set can dish out tons of additional dmg pushing both his AoE and single target above the other classes. At the end of the day arcanist DPS is performing higher than other classes in both single target and AoE.

Just to visualize to You what I am talking about here is a single target DPS of person with top parse on last boss in vSE HM. Let me say this once again this is a pure single target DPS on boss not overall DPS including AoE on adds.

Now do it for magicka arcanists, not stamina.

The issue is not the class, its the synergy with medium armor, daggers, velothi ur mage. Magicka arcanists do not need a nerf but are getting the same nerf as stamina.

The issue is the class. Every class have acces to the same gear, weapons and mythics and somehow it's arcanist that is dominating almost everywhere.

Almost every class right now have a mag version weaker than stamina oriented hybrid, arcanist is not some single exception here.

Which is proof that the issue is stamina gear, mythics, etc etc. Stamina in and of itself is overtuned.

But the reason so many arcanist pull ahead is not because of the inherent damage, its the fact that people do not have to weave light attacks which are harmed by ping. Simpler rotations (like the arcanist has) will just about always do better becasue there is less chance for error.

Same with HA builds, same with jesus beam.

Take away all that gear, mythics etc and arcanist will still be dominating among all the classes since all the classes are using the same stuff. Arcanist is just the strongest in itself.

Arcanist is leading in every trial leaderboard. In top leaderboard scores it doesnt matter how simple or hard rotations are since people in that bracket can master any rotations no matter the difficulty so the leading class will be just a class with the most "inherent dmg". Yes arcanist have the highest dmg floor due to easier rotations but it also have the highest dmg ceiling due to being the strongest class.

Alharion · February 10

I think the devs forgot that this was an MMORPG and not a hack'n'slash, personally this class made the game clearly indigestible in PVP!

I've had enough of Zenimax's practice of making one class abusive just to sell it, while others suffer from a relentless balancing error...

Pixiepumpkin · February 10

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

[
What is the scale of those bars? For all we know the lowest and highest could be a 5% difference.
Arcanist is fine and the nerfs on the PTR are unwarranted.

you can check yourself
https://www.esologs.com/

Il will not write in this thread anymore, not interestend in arguing with people that denies direct evidence .

This site shows DPS during boss fights. It doesn't show sources of DPS, and if you're attacking more mobs than just the boss. Arcanist is performing higher than other classes due to its high AOE damage that's also its main single target spammable. If you just look at dps against single entities, you'll find it's pretty comparable. I mean obviously, the single target Nightblade isn't going to get as high of a DPS score as an arcanist during a boss that summons ads. Parses are more valuable in calculating DPS comparisons in this instance than dungeon and trial tracking data.

Look at the popular builds and their parses. Stam arcanist builds are between 130k and 140k dps, though leaning towards 130. There are other class builds that are higher than that (some significantly higher), but on average, most classes are around there. Some are a bit lower, but those need to be addressed and even buffed (necro, stam warden, magplar...). This means the DPS isn't performing higher than other classes. It's the AOE that is.

This website also have plenty of filters where You can select what do You want to see specifically including single target DPS on boss. Guess which class have overwlehming lead in single target DPS on boss in almost every fight? Suprise, suprise it's arcanist. This class in majority of boss fights still do more single target DPS just on boss than other classes, often overwhelmingly more. And don't even get me started on fights where Azureblight can be used because in those arcanist very often obliterates other classes in single target DPS. Saying that arcanist is just good because of his AoE is very inaccurate, he is holding his ground very well also in single target DPSnumbers.

I assume You are reffering to dummy parses which long ago have lost their reliability. I don't know where did You get that 140k for necromancer, currently best parsers struggle to break 130k on it. The only class that can break 140k on a dummy is sorc and it's only because of preloaded overload cheese that have no use in real content. Arcanist on a dummy is actually in the higher end. Only class that can realiably beat him (excluding cheesed sorc parse) is a templar. That is all changing in real content though due to azureblight set. This set is completly useless on a dummy but in real boss fights whenever there are additional adds. Arcanist thanks to the great synergy that beam have with this set can dish out tons of additional dmg pushing both his AoE and single target above the other classes. At the end of the day arcanist DPS is performing higher than other classes in both single target and AoE.

Just to visualize to You what I am talking about here is a single target DPS of person with top parse on last boss in vSE HM. Let me say this once again this is a pure single target DPS on boss not overall DPS including AoE on adds.

Now do it for magicka arcanists, not stamina.

The issue is not the class, its the synergy with medium armor, daggers, velothi ur mage. Magicka arcanists do not need a nerf but are getting the same nerf as stamina.

The issue is the class. Every class have acces to the same gear, weapons and mythics and somehow it's arcanist that is dominating almost everywhere.

Almost every class right now have a mag version weaker than stamina oriented hybrid, arcanist is not some single exception here.

Which is proof that the issue is stamina gear, mythics, etc etc. Stamina in and of itself is overtuned.

But the reason so many arcanist pull ahead is not because of the inherent damage, its the fact that people do not have to weave light attacks which are harmed by ping. Simpler rotations (like the arcanist has) will just about always do better becasue there is less chance for error.

Same with HA builds, same with jesus beam.

Take away all that gear, mythics etc and arcanist will still be dominating among all the classes since all the classes are using the same stuff. Arcanist is just the strongest in itself.

Arcanist is leading in every trial leaderboard. In top leaderboard scores it doesnt matter how simple or hard rotations are since people in that bracket can master any rotations no matter the difficulty so the leading class will be just a class with the most "inherent dmg". Yes arcanist have the highest dmg floor due to easier rotations but it also have the highest dmg ceiling due to being the strongest class.

Not magicka, the issue is stamina, this has already been explained (and its synergy with velothi)

There is no reason for magicka arcanists to suffer the same nerfs as stamina, and yet they are.

Galeriano · February 10

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

[
What is the scale of those bars? For all we know the lowest and highest could be a 5% difference.
Arcanist is fine and the nerfs on the PTR are unwarranted.

you can check yourself
https://www.esologs.com/

Il will not write in this thread anymore, not interestend in arguing with people that denies direct evidence .

This site shows DPS during boss fights. It doesn't show sources of DPS, and if you're attacking more mobs than just the boss. Arcanist is performing higher than other classes due to its high AOE damage that's also its main single target spammable. If you just look at dps against single entities, you'll find it's pretty comparable. I mean obviously, the single target Nightblade isn't going to get as high of a DPS score as an arcanist during a boss that summons ads. Parses are more valuable in calculating DPS comparisons in this instance than dungeon and trial tracking data.

Look at the popular builds and their parses. Stam arcanist builds are between 130k and 140k dps, though leaning towards 130. There are other class builds that are higher than that (some significantly higher), but on average, most classes are around there. Some are a bit lower, but those need to be addressed and even buffed (necro, stam warden, magplar...). This means the DPS isn't performing higher than other classes. It's the AOE that is.

This website also have plenty of filters where You can select what do You want to see specifically including single target DPS on boss. Guess which class have overwlehming lead in single target DPS on boss in almost every fight? Suprise, suprise it's arcanist. This class in majority of boss fights still do more single target DPS just on boss than other classes, often overwhelmingly more. And don't even get me started on fights where Azureblight can be used because in those arcanist very often obliterates other classes in single target DPS. Saying that arcanist is just good because of his AoE is very inaccurate, he is holding his ground very well also in single target DPSnumbers.

I assume You are reffering to dummy parses which long ago have lost their reliability. I don't know where did You get that 140k for necromancer, currently best parsers struggle to break 130k on it. The only class that can break 140k on a dummy is sorc and it's only because of preloaded overload cheese that have no use in real content. Arcanist on a dummy is actually in the higher end. Only class that can realiably beat him (excluding cheesed sorc parse) is a templar. That is all changing in real content though due to azureblight set. This set is completly useless on a dummy but in real boss fights whenever there are additional adds. Arcanist thanks to the great synergy that beam have with this set can dish out tons of additional dmg pushing both his AoE and single target above the other classes. At the end of the day arcanist DPS is performing higher than other classes in both single target and AoE.

Just to visualize to You what I am talking about here is a single target DPS of person with top parse on last boss in vSE HM. Let me say this once again this is a pure single target DPS on boss not overall DPS including AoE on adds.

Now do it for magicka arcanists, not stamina.

The issue is not the class, its the synergy with medium armor, daggers, velothi ur mage. Magicka arcanists do not need a nerf but are getting the same nerf as stamina.

The issue is the class. Every class have acces to the same gear, weapons and mythics and somehow it's arcanist that is dominating almost everywhere.

Almost every class right now have a mag version weaker than stamina oriented hybrid, arcanist is not some single exception here.

Which is proof that the issue is stamina gear, mythics, etc etc. Stamina in and of itself is overtuned.

But the reason so many arcanist pull ahead is not because of the inherent damage, its the fact that people do not have to weave light attacks which are harmed by ping. Simpler rotations (like the arcanist has) will just about always do better becasue there is less chance for error.

Same with HA builds, same with jesus beam.

Take away all that gear, mythics etc and arcanist will still be dominating among all the classes since all the classes are using the same stuff. Arcanist is just the strongest in itself.

Arcanist is leading in every trial leaderboard. In top leaderboard scores it doesnt matter how simple or hard rotations are since people in that bracket can master any rotations no matter the difficulty so the leading class will be just a class with the most "inherent dmg". Yes arcanist have the highest dmg floor due to easier rotations but it also have the highest dmg ceiling due to being the strongest class.

Not magicka, the issue is stamina, this has already been explained (and its synergy with velothi)

There is no reason for magicka arcanists to suffer the same nerfs as stamina, and yet they are.

The issue is arcanist class. Using mag arcanist as an escape goat argument really doesn't cut it. Mag arcanist is still among the strongest mag setups.

As I already explained magicka arcanist is covered by alternative rotation with tentacular dread.

Arcanist is overperforming and it needs a nerf. It's as simple as that. Nobody is forcing You to play mag arcanist. Mag and stam are played basically the same atm, You stack crux and than cast beam while keeping rest of the DoTs running. The only difference is basically using runeblades instead of Flail to stack crux.

Pixiepumpkin · February 10

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

[
What is the scale of those bars? For all we know the lowest and highest could be a 5% difference.
Arcanist is fine and the nerfs on the PTR are unwarranted.

you can check yourself
https://www.esologs.com/

Il will not write in this thread anymore, not interestend in arguing with people that denies direct evidence .

This site shows DPS during boss fights. It doesn't show sources of DPS, and if you're attacking more mobs than just the boss. Arcanist is performing higher than other classes due to its high AOE damage that's also its main single target spammable. If you just look at dps against single entities, you'll find it's pretty comparable. I mean obviously, the single target Nightblade isn't going to get as high of a DPS score as an arcanist during a boss that summons ads. Parses are more valuable in calculating DPS comparisons in this instance than dungeon and trial tracking data.

Look at the popular builds and their parses. Stam arcanist builds are between 130k and 140k dps, though leaning towards 130. There are other class builds that are higher than that (some significantly higher), but on average, most classes are around there. Some are a bit lower, but those need to be addressed and even buffed (necro, stam warden, magplar...). This means the DPS isn't performing higher than other classes. It's the AOE that is.

This website also have plenty of filters where You can select what do You want to see specifically including single target DPS on boss. Guess which class have overwlehming lead in single target DPS on boss in almost every fight? Suprise, suprise it's arcanist. This class in majority of boss fights still do more single target DPS just on boss than other classes, often overwhelmingly more. And don't even get me started on fights where Azureblight can be used because in those arcanist very often obliterates other classes in single target DPS. Saying that arcanist is just good because of his AoE is very inaccurate, he is holding his ground very well also in single target DPSnumbers.

I assume You are reffering to dummy parses which long ago have lost their reliability. I don't know where did You get that 140k for necromancer, currently best parsers struggle to break 130k on it. The only class that can break 140k on a dummy is sorc and it's only because of preloaded overload cheese that have no use in real content. Arcanist on a dummy is actually in the higher end. Only class that can realiably beat him (excluding cheesed sorc parse) is a templar. That is all changing in real content though due to azureblight set. This set is completly useless on a dummy but in real boss fights whenever there are additional adds. Arcanist thanks to the great synergy that beam have with this set can dish out tons of additional dmg pushing both his AoE and single target above the other classes. At the end of the day arcanist DPS is performing higher than other classes in both single target and AoE.

Just to visualize to You what I am talking about here is a single target DPS of person with top parse on last boss in vSE HM. Let me say this once again this is a pure single target DPS on boss not overall DPS including AoE on adds.

Now do it for magicka arcanists, not stamina.

The issue is not the class, its the synergy with medium armor, daggers, velothi ur mage. Magicka arcanists do not need a nerf but are getting the same nerf as stamina.

The issue is the class. Every class have acces to the same gear, weapons and mythics and somehow it's arcanist that is dominating almost everywhere.

Almost every class right now have a mag version weaker than stamina oriented hybrid, arcanist is not some single exception here.

Which is proof that the issue is stamina gear, mythics, etc etc. Stamina in and of itself is overtuned.

But the reason so many arcanist pull ahead is not because of the inherent damage, its the fact that people do not have to weave light attacks which are harmed by ping. Simpler rotations (like the arcanist has) will just about always do better becasue there is less chance for error.

Same with HA builds, same with jesus beam.

Take away all that gear, mythics etc and arcanist will still be dominating among all the classes since all the classes are using the same stuff. Arcanist is just the strongest in itself.

Arcanist is leading in every trial leaderboard. In top leaderboard scores it doesnt matter how simple or hard rotations are since people in that bracket can master any rotations no matter the difficulty so the leading class will be just a class with the most "inherent dmg". Yes arcanist have the highest dmg floor due to easier rotations but it also have the highest dmg ceiling due to being the strongest class.

Not magicka, the issue is stamina, this has already been explained (and its synergy with velothi)

There is no reason for magicka arcanists to suffer the same nerfs as stamina, and yet they are.

The issue is arcanist class. Using mag arcanist as an escape goat argument really doesn't cut it.

As I already explained magicka arcanist is covered by alternative rotation with tentacular dread.

Arcanist is overperforming and it needs a nerf. It's as simple as that. Magicka arcanist would still be one of the strongest among all magicka versions of the classes if arcanist would be nerfed. Also nobody is forcing You to play mag arcanist. Mag and stam are played basically the same atm, You stack crux and than cast beam while keeping rest of the DoTs running.

I CHOOSE to play magicka and this is my right as a player/customer per ZOS

Secondly, contrary to your assertion, magicka arcanist are not performing as well as you say. if they were, we'd see a heck of a lot more of them.

Daggers, Medium Armor, Velothi Ur Mage are the issues. There is a reason everyone runs "Meta" builds, its because they are the top performing regardless of the class.

Nerfing stamina arcanist is only going to hurt magicka arcanist and magicka arcanist do not need a nerf in anyway shape or form. Not in PVE, not in PVP.

Galeriano · February 10

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

[
What is the scale of those bars? For all we know the lowest and highest could be a 5% difference.
Arcanist is fine and the nerfs on the PTR are unwarranted.

you can check yourself
https://www.esologs.com/

Il will not write in this thread anymore, not interestend in arguing with people that denies direct evidence .

This site shows DPS during boss fights. It doesn't show sources of DPS, and if you're attacking more mobs than just the boss. Arcanist is performing higher than other classes due to its high AOE damage that's also its main single target spammable. If you just look at dps against single entities, you'll find it's pretty comparable. I mean obviously, the single target Nightblade isn't going to get as high of a DPS score as an arcanist during a boss that summons ads. Parses are more valuable in calculating DPS comparisons in this instance than dungeon and trial tracking data.

Look at the popular builds and their parses. Stam arcanist builds are between 130k and 140k dps, though leaning towards 130. There are other class builds that are higher than that (some significantly higher), but on average, most classes are around there. Some are a bit lower, but those need to be addressed and even buffed (necro, stam warden, magplar...). This means the DPS isn't performing higher than other classes. It's the AOE that is.

This website also have plenty of filters where You can select what do You want to see specifically including single target DPS on boss. Guess which class have overwlehming lead in single target DPS on boss in almost every fight? Suprise, suprise it's arcanist. This class in majority of boss fights still do more single target DPS just on boss than other classes, often overwhelmingly more. And don't even get me started on fights where Azureblight can be used because in those arcanist very often obliterates other classes in single target DPS. Saying that arcanist is just good because of his AoE is very inaccurate, he is holding his ground very well also in single target DPSnumbers.

I assume You are reffering to dummy parses which long ago have lost their reliability. I don't know where did You get that 140k for necromancer, currently best parsers struggle to break 130k on it. The only class that can break 140k on a dummy is sorc and it's only because of preloaded overload cheese that have no use in real content. Arcanist on a dummy is actually in the higher end. Only class that can realiably beat him (excluding cheesed sorc parse) is a templar. That is all changing in real content though due to azureblight set. This set is completly useless on a dummy but in real boss fights whenever there are additional adds. Arcanist thanks to the great synergy that beam have with this set can dish out tons of additional dmg pushing both his AoE and single target above the other classes. At the end of the day arcanist DPS is performing higher than other classes in both single target and AoE.

Just to visualize to You what I am talking about here is a single target DPS of person with top parse on last boss in vSE HM. Let me say this once again this is a pure single target DPS on boss not overall DPS including AoE on adds.

Now do it for magicka arcanists, not stamina.

The issue is not the class, its the synergy with medium armor, daggers, velothi ur mage. Magicka arcanists do not need a nerf but are getting the same nerf as stamina.

The issue is the class. Every class have acces to the same gear, weapons and mythics and somehow it's arcanist that is dominating almost everywhere.

Almost every class right now have a mag version weaker than stamina oriented hybrid, arcanist is not some single exception here.

Which is proof that the issue is stamina gear, mythics, etc etc. Stamina in and of itself is overtuned.

But the reason so many arcanist pull ahead is not because of the inherent damage, its the fact that people do not have to weave light attacks which are harmed by ping. Simpler rotations (like the arcanist has) will just about always do better becasue there is less chance for error.

Same with HA builds, same with jesus beam.

Take away all that gear, mythics etc and arcanist will still be dominating among all the classes since all the classes are using the same stuff. Arcanist is just the strongest in itself.

Arcanist is leading in every trial leaderboard. In top leaderboard scores it doesnt matter how simple or hard rotations are since people in that bracket can master any rotations no matter the difficulty so the leading class will be just a class with the most "inherent dmg". Yes arcanist have the highest dmg floor due to easier rotations but it also have the highest dmg ceiling due to being the strongest class.

Not magicka, the issue is stamina, this has already been explained (and its synergy with velothi)

There is no reason for magicka arcanists to suffer the same nerfs as stamina, and yet they are.

The issue is arcanist class. Using mag arcanist as an escape goat argument really doesn't cut it.

As I already explained magicka arcanist is covered by alternative rotation with tentacular dread.

Arcanist is overperforming and it needs a nerf. It's as simple as that. Magicka arcanist would still be one of the strongest among all magicka versions of the classes if arcanist would be nerfed. Also nobody is forcing You to play mag arcanist. Mag and stam are played basically the same atm, You stack crux and than cast beam while keeping rest of the DoTs running.

I CHOOSE to play magicka and this is my right as a player/customer per ZOS

Secondly, contrary to your assertion, magicka arcanist are not performing as well as you say. if they were, we'd see a heck of a lot more of them.

Daggers, Medium Armor, Velothi Ur Mage are the issues. There is a reason everyone runs "Meta" builds, its because they are the top performing regardless of the class.

Nerfing stamina arcanist is only going to hurt magicka arcanist and magicka arcanist do not need a nerf in anyway shape or form. Not in PVE, not in PVP.

So You choose to play inferior version. Thats Your decision and You indeed have right to it. Your decision though cannot stop whole game balance simply because it's inconvinient for You to adapt.

Magicka arcanist is really decent, there simply isn't any logical reason to pick it up over stam arcanist because stam simply performs better while basically doing even easier rotation. Why would anyone in their right mind choose inferior version of a class? The only reason to do it is pure RP.

Like I said multiple times already. Everyone have acces to daggers, velothi and medium armor and it's still arcanist that performs the best while wearing it, leaving other classes far behind because arcanist have simply more raw power than everything else. Everyone runs meta builds because they're usually the strongest. There was a time when magicka was meta also.

Like I also already said multiple times magicka arcanist have alternative rotation without beam and flail he can use that produces single target DPS similar to rotation with beam. If You want to play inferior version of a class that's on You but don't expect for whole game balance of to be hold in place simply because of Your refusal to adapt. If certain class is highly overperforming in content than it's getting nerf. It's as simple as that. Specific off meta inferior version of a class doesn't matter when whole game balance of 7 classes is at stake. If mag arcanist is going to recive a nerf for the sake of better balancing all 7 classes than so be it.

Pixiepumpkin · February 10

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

[
What is the scale of those bars? For all we know the lowest and highest could be a 5% difference.
Arcanist is fine and the nerfs on the PTR are unwarranted.

you can check yourself
https://www.esologs.com/

Il will not write in this thread anymore, not interestend in arguing with people that denies direct evidence .

This site shows DPS during boss fights. It doesn't show sources of DPS, and if you're attacking more mobs than just the boss. Arcanist is performing higher than other classes due to its high AOE damage that's also its main single target spammable. If you just look at dps against single entities, you'll find it's pretty comparable. I mean obviously, the single target Nightblade isn't going to get as high of a DPS score as an arcanist during a boss that summons ads. Parses are more valuable in calculating DPS comparisons in this instance than dungeon and trial tracking data.

Look at the popular builds and their parses. Stam arcanist builds are between 130k and 140k dps, though leaning towards 130. There are other class builds that are higher than that (some significantly higher), but on average, most classes are around there. Some are a bit lower, but those need to be addressed and even buffed (necro, stam warden, magplar...). This means the DPS isn't performing higher than other classes. It's the AOE that is.

This website also have plenty of filters where You can select what do You want to see specifically including single target DPS on boss. Guess which class have overwlehming lead in single target DPS on boss in almost every fight? Suprise, suprise it's arcanist. This class in majority of boss fights still do more single target DPS just on boss than other classes, often overwhelmingly more. And don't even get me started on fights where Azureblight can be used because in those arcanist very often obliterates other classes in single target DPS. Saying that arcanist is just good because of his AoE is very inaccurate, he is holding his ground very well also in single target DPSnumbers.

I assume You are reffering to dummy parses which long ago have lost their reliability. I don't know where did You get that 140k for necromancer, currently best parsers struggle to break 130k on it. The only class that can break 140k on a dummy is sorc and it's only because of preloaded overload cheese that have no use in real content. Arcanist on a dummy is actually in the higher end. Only class that can realiably beat him (excluding cheesed sorc parse) is a templar. That is all changing in real content though due to azureblight set. This set is completly useless on a dummy but in real boss fights whenever there are additional adds. Arcanist thanks to the great synergy that beam have with this set can dish out tons of additional dmg pushing both his AoE and single target above the other classes. At the end of the day arcanist DPS is performing higher than other classes in both single target and AoE.

Just to visualize to You what I am talking about here is a single target DPS of person with top parse on last boss in vSE HM. Let me say this once again this is a pure single target DPS on boss not overall DPS including AoE on adds.

Now do it for magicka arcanists, not stamina.

The issue is not the class, its the synergy with medium armor, daggers, velothi ur mage. Magicka arcanists do not need a nerf but are getting the same nerf as stamina.

The issue is the class. Every class have acces to the same gear, weapons and mythics and somehow it's arcanist that is dominating almost everywhere.

Almost every class right now have a mag version weaker than stamina oriented hybrid, arcanist is not some single exception here.

Which is proof that the issue is stamina gear, mythics, etc etc. Stamina in and of itself is overtuned.

But the reason so many arcanist pull ahead is not because of the inherent damage, its the fact that people do not have to weave light attacks which are harmed by ping. Simpler rotations (like the arcanist has) will just about always do better becasue there is less chance for error.

Same with HA builds, same with jesus beam.

Take away all that gear, mythics etc and arcanist will still be dominating among all the classes since all the classes are using the same stuff. Arcanist is just the strongest in itself.

Arcanist is leading in every trial leaderboard. In top leaderboard scores it doesnt matter how simple or hard rotations are since people in that bracket can master any rotations no matter the difficulty so the leading class will be just a class with the most "inherent dmg". Yes arcanist have the highest dmg floor due to easier rotations but it also have the highest dmg ceiling due to being the strongest class.

Not magicka, the issue is stamina, this has already been explained (and its synergy with velothi)

There is no reason for magicka arcanists to suffer the same nerfs as stamina, and yet they are.

The issue is arcanist class. Using mag arcanist as an escape goat argument really doesn't cut it.

As I already explained magicka arcanist is covered by alternative rotation with tentacular dread.

Arcanist is overperforming and it needs a nerf. It's as simple as that. Magicka arcanist would still be one of the strongest among all magicka versions of the classes if arcanist would be nerfed. Also nobody is forcing You to play mag arcanist. Mag and stam are played basically the same atm, You stack crux and than cast beam while keeping rest of the DoTs running.

I CHOOSE to play magicka and this is my right as a player/customer per ZOS

Secondly, contrary to your assertion, magicka arcanist are not performing as well as you say. if they were, we'd see a heck of a lot more of them.

Daggers, Medium Armor, Velothi Ur Mage are the issues. There is a reason everyone runs "Meta" builds, its because they are the top performing regardless of the class.

Nerfing stamina arcanist is only going to hurt magicka arcanist and magicka arcanist do not need a nerf in anyway shape or form. Not in PVE, not in PVP.

So You choose to play inferior version. Thats Your decision and You indeed have right to it. Your decision though cannot stop whole game balance simply because it's inconvinient for You to adapt.

And I could say the same to you, stop trying to get arcanists nerfed becasue you have not adapted.
Fact is, I am trying to keep magica from being nerfed, becasue it DOES NOT NEED IT.

Galeriano wrote: »

Magicka arcanist is really decent, there simply isn't any logical reason to pick it up over stam arcanist because stam simply performs better while basically doing even easier rotation. Why would anyone in their right mind choose inferior version of a class? The only reason to do it is pure RP.

Because I don't play stamina toons at all. I dont like "rage" "stamina" or any "physical" based damage classes. I have always played ranged and always played casters "magicka", "mana" etc.
Classes should be equally balanced for all playstyles, which is why I am against the nerf because it nerfs magica which does not need it.
Your approach to the game is min max and for some reason arcanists being better than your main has irritated you. Most players do not, I play for fun...IMO the arcanist is the FIRST class that ZOS has gotten right. Its the first class since I started playing that I really enjoy, because I do not have to use weapon or guild abilities to do well, nerfing fatecarver is going to change that, especially on one bar builds.

Galeriano wrote: »

[
Like I said multiple times already. Everyone have acces to daggers, velothi and medium armor and it's still arcanist that performs the best while wearing it, leaving other classes far behind because arcanist have simply more raw power than everything else

Incorrect. Its becasue the arcanist as a class is the best suited to NOT weaving due to fatecarver. This is why they pull ahead becasue of gear (velothi) and a simpler rotation, I already explained this. Other classes will not synergise as well.

. Everyone r

Galeriano wrote: »

[uns meta builds because they're usually the strongest. There was a time when magicka was meta also.

Magicka has not held the limelight for strongest builds for long whenver it does, but this is neither here nor there. There is ZERO reason why magicka should not be on par with stamina. If a player chooses to play a magicka characterr, they should not be looked down upon/relegated to being bench warmers while their stamina counterparts get to have fun in vet trials.

First and foremost players of this game are customers, and as a customer I have a rightful expectation that the developer of a game is going to do everything in their power to ensure that regardless of what I choose to play, that the spec is strong enough to be considerd in the hardest content. Magicka arcanists are about where they need to be, the nerf is not warranted for magicka especially when otehr classes are getting BUFFED and already pull ahead of magicka arcanists.

Galeriano wrote: »

[
Like I also already said multiple times magicka arcanist have alternative rotation without beam and flail he can use that produces single target DPS similar to rotation with beam. If You want to play inferior version of a class that's on You but don't expect for whole game balance of to be hold in place simply because of Your refusal to adapt. If class is highly overperforming in content thatn it's getting nerf. Specific off meta inferior version of a class doesn't matter when whole game balance of 7 classes is at stake. If mag arcanist is going to recive a nerf for the sake of better balancing all 7 classes than so be it.

Read my previous reply. This has nothing to do with adapting. I, as a customer have a rightful expectation that what I choose to play wiill be on par with other specs in game. So, I am voicing my concern on this which is my right. There are other ways to tame stamina arcanists without hurting magicka and this should be done instead of taking an easy approach that nerfs both specs.

Bottom line is that magicka arcanists do not need a nerf, in anyway shape or form.

LadyAstrum · February 10

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

My fear is using this in PVP. Fatecarver is already lack luster because it does not lock to the target like jesus beam or lightning heavy attack or the soul ultimate. This is just going to make it useless in pvp.

Very much agree with this. Also, agree that just because some people choose to play stamina it doesn't mean it's okay for the magicka version of the class to suffer any nerfs.

Galeriano · February 10

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

[
What is the scale of those bars? For all we know the lowest and highest could be a 5% difference.
Arcanist is fine and the nerfs on the PTR are unwarranted.

you can check yourself
https://www.esologs.com/

Il will not write in this thread anymore, not interestend in arguing with people that denies direct evidence .

This site shows DPS during boss fights. It doesn't show sources of DPS, and if you're attacking more mobs than just the boss. Arcanist is performing higher than other classes due to its high AOE damage that's also its main single target spammable. If you just look at dps against single entities, you'll find it's pretty comparable. I mean obviously, the single target Nightblade isn't going to get as high of a DPS score as an arcanist during a boss that summons ads. Parses are more valuable in calculating DPS comparisons in this instance than dungeon and trial tracking data.

Look at the popular builds and their parses. Stam arcanist builds are between 130k and 140k dps, though leaning towards 130. There are other class builds that are higher than that (some significantly higher), but on average, most classes are around there. Some are a bit lower, but those need to be addressed and even buffed (necro, stam warden, magplar...). This means the DPS isn't performing higher than other classes. It's the AOE that is.

This website also have plenty of filters where You can select what do You want to see specifically including single target DPS on boss. Guess which class have overwlehming lead in single target DPS on boss in almost every fight? Suprise, suprise it's arcanist. This class in majority of boss fights still do more single target DPS just on boss than other classes, often overwhelmingly more. And don't even get me started on fights where Azureblight can be used because in those arcanist very often obliterates other classes in single target DPS. Saying that arcanist is just good because of his AoE is very inaccurate, he is holding his ground very well also in single target DPSnumbers.

I assume You are reffering to dummy parses which long ago have lost their reliability. I don't know where did You get that 140k for necromancer, currently best parsers struggle to break 130k on it. The only class that can break 140k on a dummy is sorc and it's only because of preloaded overload cheese that have no use in real content. Arcanist on a dummy is actually in the higher end. Only class that can realiably beat him (excluding cheesed sorc parse) is a templar. That is all changing in real content though due to azureblight set. This set is completly useless on a dummy but in real boss fights whenever there are additional adds. Arcanist thanks to the great synergy that beam have with this set can dish out tons of additional dmg pushing both his AoE and single target above the other classes. At the end of the day arcanist DPS is performing higher than other classes in both single target and AoE.

Just to visualize to You what I am talking about here is a single target DPS of person with top parse on last boss in vSE HM. Let me say this once again this is a pure single target DPS on boss not overall DPS including AoE on adds.

Now do it for magicka arcanists, not stamina.

The issue is not the class, its the synergy with medium armor, daggers, velothi ur mage. Magicka arcanists do not need a nerf but are getting the same nerf as stamina.

The issue is the class. Every class have acces to the same gear, weapons and mythics and somehow it's arcanist that is dominating almost everywhere.

Almost every class right now have a mag version weaker than stamina oriented hybrid, arcanist is not some single exception here.

Which is proof that the issue is stamina gear, mythics, etc etc. Stamina in and of itself is overtuned.

But the reason so many arcanist pull ahead is not because of the inherent damage, its the fact that people do not have to weave light attacks which are harmed by ping. Simpler rotations (like the arcanist has) will just about always do better becasue there is less chance for error.

Same with HA builds, same with jesus beam.

Take away all that gear, mythics etc and arcanist will still be dominating among all the classes since all the classes are using the same stuff. Arcanist is just the strongest in itself.

Arcanist is leading in every trial leaderboard. In top leaderboard scores it doesnt matter how simple or hard rotations are since people in that bracket can master any rotations no matter the difficulty so the leading class will be just a class with the most "inherent dmg". Yes arcanist have the highest dmg floor due to easier rotations but it also have the highest dmg ceiling due to being the strongest class.

Not magicka, the issue is stamina, this has already been explained (and its synergy with velothi)

There is no reason for magicka arcanists to suffer the same nerfs as stamina, and yet they are.

The issue is arcanist class. Using mag arcanist as an escape goat argument really doesn't cut it.

As I already explained magicka arcanist is covered by alternative rotation with tentacular dread.

Arcanist is overperforming and it needs a nerf. It's as simple as that. Magicka arcanist would still be one of the strongest among all magicka versions of the classes if arcanist would be nerfed. Also nobody is forcing You to play mag arcanist. Mag and stam are played basically the same atm, You stack crux and than cast beam while keeping rest of the DoTs running.

I CHOOSE to play magicka and this is my right as a player/customer per ZOS

Secondly, contrary to your assertion, magicka arcanist are not performing as well as you say. if they were, we'd see a heck of a lot more of them.

Daggers, Medium Armor, Velothi Ur Mage are the issues. There is a reason everyone runs "Meta" builds, its because they are the top performing regardless of the class.

Nerfing stamina arcanist is only going to hurt magicka arcanist and magicka arcanist do not need a nerf in anyway shape or form. Not in PVE, not in PVP.

So You choose to play inferior version. Thats Your decision and You indeed have right to it. Your decision though cannot stop whole game balance simply because it's inconvinient for You to adapt.

And I could say the same to you, stop trying to get arcanists nerfed becasue you have not adapted.
Fact is, I am trying to keep magica from being nerfed, becasue it DOES NOT NEED IT.

Galeriano wrote: »

Magicka arcanist is really decent, there simply isn't any logical reason to pick it up over stam arcanist because stam simply performs better while basically doing even easier rotation. Why would anyone in their right mind choose inferior version of a class? The only reason to do it is pure RP.

Because I don't play stamina toons at all. I dont like "rage" "stamina" or any "physical" based damage classes. I have always played ranged and always played casters "magicka", "mana" etc.
Classes should be equally balanced for all playstyles, which is why I am against the nerf because it nerfs magica which does not need it.
Your approach to the game is min max and for some reason arcanists being better than your main has irritated you. Most players do not, I play for fun...IMO the arcanist is the FIRST class that ZOS has gotten right. Its the first class since I started playing that I really enjoy, because I do not have to use weapon or guild abilities to do well, nerfing fatecarver is going to change that, especially on one bar builds.

Galeriano wrote: »

[
Like I said multiple times already. Everyone have acces to daggers, velothi and medium armor and it's still arcanist that performs the best while wearing it, leaving other classes far behind because arcanist have simply more raw power than everything else

Incorrect. Its becasue the arcanist as a class is the best suited to NOT weaving due to fatecarver. This is why they pull ahead becasue of gear (velothi) and a simpler rotation, I already explained this. Other classes will not synergise as well.

. Everyone r

Galeriano wrote: »

[uns meta builds because they're usually the strongest. There was a time when magicka was meta also.

Magicka has not held the limelight for strongest builds for long whenver it does, but this is neither here nor there. There is ZERO reason why magicka should not be on par with stamina. If a player chooses to play a magicka characterr, they should not be looked down upon/relegated to being bench warmers while their stamina counterparts get to have fun in vet trials.

First and foremost players of this game are customers, and as a customer I have a rightful expectation that the developer of a game is going to do everything in their power to ensure that regardless of what I choose to play, that the spec is strong enough to be considerd in the hardest content. Magicka arcanists are about where they need to be, the nerf is not warranted for magicka especially when otehr classes are getting BUFFED and already pull ahead of magicka arcanists.

Galeriano wrote: »

[
Like I also already said multiple times magicka arcanist have alternative rotation without beam and flail he can use that produces single target DPS similar to rotation with beam. If You want to play inferior version of a class that's on You but don't expect for whole game balance of to be hold in place simply because of Your refusal to adapt. If class is highly overperforming in content thatn it's getting nerf. Specific off meta inferior version of a class doesn't matter when whole game balance of 7 classes is at stake. If mag arcanist is going to recive a nerf for the sake of better balancing all 7 classes than so be it.

Read my previous reply. This has nothing to do with adapting. I, as a customer have a rightful expectation that what I choose to play wiill be on par with other specs in game. So, I am voicing my concern on this which is my right. There are other ways to tame stamina arcanists without hurting magicka and this should be done instead of taking an easy approach that nerfs both specs.

Bottom line is that magicka arcanists do not need a nerf, in anyway shape or form.

I don't know where did You get the impression that I did not adapt. Fact that I adapted doesn't mean I don't see how overpowered arcanist is.

Stam arcanist is basically almost the same as mag atm. Majority of Your dmg comes from a beam which is a magic dmg skill no matter what resource You base Your dmg on. Arcanist being better does not irritate me and it is my PvE main atm so all Your assumptions about me are complete misses. I just objectively state arcanist it is leaps and bounds beyond other classes which in longer run is very unhealthy for the class balance and the game itself. Making all classes equall on both mag and stam is IMPOSSIBLE. There is too many variables at play to make everything equall at the same time. There will be always a setup that is the strongest. Making class os much stronger than everything else doesn't seem like "getting it right".

Light attack weaving was nerfed to the point that velothi is a meta for every class right now. Simplier rotation have nothing to do with arcanist being the top at almost every leaderboard because as I already said people that are top on leaderboards have no issue with rotation on any class so it's actually raw strenght of a class itself that makes it the best for them. If other classes would be stronger than arcanist DPS wise with harder rotations top players would be using that other classes. There is a reason they don't do it.

There was a period when stamina was held in limelight for few years. Things change and with ongoing hybrydisation the lines between mag and stam are becoming blurry. Like I already said things will never be perfectly on par. One of the main reasons behid choosing certain setup by many people is it's strenght copmpared to others.There needs to be a weaker setup for stronger setup to exist.

Developer is not obliged in any shape or form to make every setup work in hardest content. Hardest content by its design is all about optimisation. Making everything workl in hardest content pretty much goes against every standard established in online gaming. Should we be also able to clear all HMs naked and with bare knuckles or just with LA spam? You can choose wheter You want to optimise and participate in hardest content or not. Nerf is warranted to whole arcanist class.

Developer was never giving a promise or advertising game as such that whatever You choose to play will be on par with other specs in the game so Your expectations are unjistified. As a customoer You should reasonably expect that making everything equall is simply impossible and there will be always stronger and weaker builds. Choosing sub optimal setup is a personal decision on Your side.

Arcanist overperforms in general fact that stam arcanist is stronger doesn't mean mag arcanist is weak. Beam is overpowered in general. Sure there are ways to nerf stam arcanist more than mag but it doesn't adress elephant in the room which beam is.

Bottom line is that arcanist as a class needs a dmg nerf since it's currently completly destroying game balance. Making sub optimal version of it less optimal is really not that important when whole game balance is at stake.

Pixiepumpkin · February 10

Galeriano wrote: »

I don't know where did You get the impression that I did not adapt. Fact that I adapted doesn't mean I don't see how overpowered arcanist is.

Because you first suggested that I did not adapt, which could just as easily be said to you.

Galeriano wrote: »

Stam arcanist is basically almost the same as mag atm. Majority of Your dmg comes from a beam which is a magic dmg skill no matter what resource You base Your dmg on. Arcanist being better does not irritate me and it is my PvE main atm so all Your assumptions about me are complete misses. I just objectively state arcanist it is leaps and bounds beyond other classes which in longer run is very unhealthy for the class balance and the game itself.

No, magicka arcanst are not at the same level. You keep using the class to justify magica nerfs, which are not necessary...that is unless you feel everything that is at magicka level also need nerfed (which in fact they are getting buffed, further pushing magicka down).

Galeriano wrote: »

Making all classes equall on both mag and stam is IMPOSSIBLE. There is too many variables at play to make everything equall at the same time. There will be always a setup that is the strongest. Making class os much stronger than everything else doesn't seem like "getting it right".

Its not impossible but it might be out of the means of zos to do so due to budget.

Galeriano wrote: »

Light attack weaving was nerfed to the point that velothi is a meta for every class right now. Simplier rotation have nothing to do with arcanist being the top at almost every leaderboard because as I already said people that are top on leaderboards have no issue with rotation on any class so it's actually raw strenght of a class itself that makes it the best for them.

Few are perfect with their rotation in trials. Target dummies are one thing, trial fights are anther and this is where arcanist shines due to the simper roation, so it is VERY much a factor.
And light attacks are still a large portion of overall DPS, enough that if not done properly you can easily see the simper rotations pull ahead.

Galeriano wrote: »

If other classes would be stronger than arcanist DPS wise with harder rotations top players would be using that other classes. There is a reason they don't do it.

But that is the point, many of them use arcanist because there still is a rotation, but its perfected without having to light weave. Not having to light weave removes any latancy issues that may exist.

Galeriano wrote: »

There was a period when stamina was held in limelight for few years. Things change and with ongoing hybrydisation the lines between mag and stam are becoming blurry. Like I already said things will never be perfectly on par. One of the main reasons behid choosing certain setup by many people is it's strenght copmpared to others.There needs to be a weaker setup for stronger setup to exist.

And stamina still generally overperformed, always has.

Galeriano wrote: »

Developer was never giving a promise or advertising game as such that whatever You choose to play will be on par with other specs in the game so Your expectations are unjistified. As a customoer You should reasonably expect that making everything equall is simply impossible and there will be always stronger and weaker builds. Choosing sub optimal setup is a personal decision on Your side.

Expectations are completely justified, its the developers responsibility to ensure that everything they are selling has equal opportunity.

And balance although not possible to make perfectly equal can in fact be brought within 5% of each other or even closer as other studios have done.

Secondly, there is no such thing as choosing a sub-optimal build. I feel like you say it this way to berrate my choices as inferior. The fact is no one knows how their class is going to perform when they start playing it unless you study 3rd party sources, which I do not as many do not. I never "chose" to play a "sub optimal build", I chose to play a magicka arcanist because I always play magicka.

Galeriano wrote: »

Arcanist overperforms in general fact that stam arcanist is stronger doesn't mean mag arcanist is weak. Beam is overpowered in general. Sure there are ways to nerf stam arcanist more than mag but it doesn't adress elephant in the room which beam is.

Beam is not the issue and magicka does not need a nerf, this has been stated like 7 times now. Magicka should not aborb an unneceesary nerf because stamina is stronger. There are other ways to achieve the end goal without making magicka arcanists inferior.
Regarding PVP, magicka arcanists are already inferior. The beam itself is inferior becasue of its lack of tracking. Right now, on live people completely tank my beam and shread me to pieces, this means they are not afraid of fatecarverer becasue its already not doing enough damage.

Galeriano wrote: »

Bottom line is that arcanist as a class needs a dmg nerf since it's currently completly destroying game balance. Making sub optimal version of it less optimal is really not that important when whole game balance is at stake.

No, the class does not need a nerf. Fatecarver is not the issue, and I already explained why, [snip].

And "game balance" is not at stake. No one is having less fun becasue the boss goes down slightly faster. In fact, everyone champions the bosses going down faster.....this is proven through the fact that vet trials will not bring along sub-par specs.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Katahdin · February 10

I get learning to weave is hard. I worked hours and hours on a training dummy to get my dps on par for vet and HM trials.

To have a class just be able to one bar and spam 2 or 3 skills and still be able to beat out the top DPS of any other class is ridiculous. They can tank, heal and do top damage all at the same time. Other classes sit out of trials because it has to be an arcanist or nothing for many slots.

Yes I have an arcanist, and I see the damage they can do. Just like Necro before them, the newness has worn off and its time for an adjustment to put them on par with other classes.

Pixiepumpkin · February 10

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

[snip]

Katahdin wrote: »

I get learning to weave is hard. I worked hours and hours on a training dummy to get my dps on par for vet and HM trials.

To have a class just be able to one bar and spam 2 or 3 skills and still be able to beat out the top DPS of any other class is ridiculous. They can tank, heal and do top damage all at the same time. Other classes sit out of trials because it has to be an arcanist or nothing for many slots.

Yes I have an arcanist, and I see the damage they can do. Just like Necro before them, the newness has worn off and its time for an adjustment to put them on par with other classes.

Thank you for proving the point I have been trying to make.

But regarding "learning rotation". Not everyone has the luxury of bar swapping due to latancy/high ping which is completely (in my case) out of my control. This is where arcanist and oakensoul help players like myself enjoy the same content we pay for that you get to enjoy.

but for some reason, some people in this community just cant handle players doing just as well with simpler builds/rotations.

I will never understand this.

[edited to remove quote]

Katahdin · February 10

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

The only thing having a strong stamina arcanist does, is destroy the epeen of sweaties and try-hards who play other classes and that is the gospel truth.

Same people complaining about stamina arcanist are the same people who complained about oakensoul. For some reason they can't handle someone doing just as well with a simpler build/simpler rotation.

Katahdin wrote: »

I get learning to weave is hard. I worked hours and hours on a training dummy to get my dps on par for vet and HM trials.

To have a class just be able to one bar and spam 2 or 3 skills and still be able to beat out the top DPS of any other class is ridiculous. They can tank, heal and do top damage all at the same time. Other classes sit out of trials because it has to be an arcanist or nothing for many slots.

Yes I have an arcanist, and I see the damage they can do. Just like Necro before them, the newness has worn off and its time for an adjustment to put them on par with other classes.

Thank you for proving the point I have been trying to make.

But regarding "learning rotation". Not everyone has the luxury of bar swapping due to latancy/high ping which is completely (in my case) out of my control. This is where arcanist and oakensoul help players like myself enjoy the same content we pay for that you get to enjoy.

but for some reason, some people in this community just cant handle players doing just as well with simpler builds/rotations.

I will never understand this.

When they make it as easy for me on my favorite class to do the same damage, instead of being forced to play a class I dont want to play or sit on the bench, Ill be fine with it. All other classes shouldn't be forced to do it while one can just have easy mode. Ill never understand why people dont get that.

You are entitled to your opinion but so are those that disagree
Dont get me wrong, I HATE dummy humping with a passion but I had to do it if I wanted to do the content.
If it was all easy mode, there probably wouldnt be a vet trials community anyway because it wouldnt be challenging enough to hold people's interest. We already get too many complaints about how easy overland is for some people.

Dont blame other players, blame ZoS for making weaving required for high DPS