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Solar Disturbed?

Tyrant_Tim
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Now, I’m going to preface this thread by saying, I am completely fine with the new skill Vibrant Shroud…

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Why is it that Major Maim or Protection are still considered Ultimate-level buff/debuffs? Ultimates like Solar Disturbance and…

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…are completely useless in this stage of ESO, back in the day players would cycle ultimates like these to survive high pressure execute phases, but it’s been almost 7 years now since the last time it was necessary. These skills need to be looked into.
  • Billium813
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    I think these Major buffs / debuffs should be limited to Ultimate and 5 piece procs

    I was not in favor of Destructive Clench getting Major Maim in Waking Flame 7.1.5, nor Chains of Devastation getting Major Berserk in 8.3.5. ZOS is just creating an inflation and I think they nees better controls on how they make these buff changes. They shouldn't just throw Major buffs/debuffs around on Skills to incentivize play.
    Edited by Billium813 on February 2, 2024 5:32PM
  • Billium813
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    I think these Major buffs / debuffs should be limited to Ultimate and 5 piece procs

    I was not in favor of Destructive Clench getting Major Maim in Waking Flame 7.1.5. This is just creating an inflation and I think ZOS needs better controls on how they make changes. They shouldn't just throw Major buffs/debuffs around to incentivize play.

    Nah imo, they just need to make these ultimates more worth it.

    You see the snowball inflation being created, right? How long before we need a buff category higher then Major?
  • Necrotech_Master
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    i think some of the major stuff from ultimates was actually nerfs from when the ults used to have unique debuffs

    im pretty sure before major maim was a thing, this ult actually had a unique -dmg debuff, then it was changed to major maim (when it was 30% debuff), and with the further nerfs to major/minor stuff its honestly too weak on the ultimate

    ultimates i think should have some form of unique effect, or at least a more potent buff/debuff than the normal major/minor stuff because its not up all the time

    if it was a unique effect, it doesnt have to be any stronger than major maim as it is right now so that it could potentially stack with it and actually have more of a use case, but nobody i know uses nova or morphs for debuffing (solar prison the other morph is sometimes used in pvp still due to the strong synergy)
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • Tyrant_Tim
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    If Major buffs/debuffs were only sourced through ultimates, that would be great, I would also change the way I approached the problem.

    With what’s easily available in-game, these ultimates need a complete makeover.

    I mean seriously, Major Protection?…

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  • Necrotech_Master
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    theres actually a lot of major buffs/debuffs that are fairly easily sourced right now

    major protection (flare), major maim (ice staff taunt), major vuln (gear procs), etc

    even stuff like major berserk is pretty easy to source for some classes (DK chain pull)
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • Billium813
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    i think some of the major stuff from ultimates was actually nerfs from when the ults used to have unique debuffs

    im pretty sure before major maim was a thing, this ult actually had a unique -dmg debuff, then it was changed to major maim (when it was 30% debuff), and with the further nerfs to major/minor stuff its honestly too weak on the ultimate

    ultimates i think should have some form of unique effect, or at least a more potent buff/debuff than the normal major/minor stuff because its not up all the time

    if it was a unique effect, it doesnt have to be any stronger than major maim as it is right now so that it could potentially stack with it and actually have more of a use case, but nobody i know uses nova or morphs for debuffing (solar prison the other morph is sometimes used in pvp still due to the strong synergy)

    I understand what you're saying, but I think you're coming to the wrong conclusion. Yes, many unique Ultimate abilities were essentially nerfed when they were turned into named Major Buffs/Debuffs. But then Major Buffs started getting handed out like candy to Skills. The gap has started to close between Ultimates vs Skills. It's yet another identity issue ESO has as they blur the lines and dilute everything.

    > ultimates i think should have some form of unique effect, or at least a more potent buff/debuff than the normal major/minor stuff because its not up all the time

    And this is the result. Ultimates don't feel like Ultimates anymore because the Major buffs they give can be sourced from Skills more easily. So now there is an advocate base asking for Ultimates to have unique buffs again. It's inflation driven by lazy designers. "Just throw Major Berserk on it, that'll get players to use it"
  • Necrotech_Master
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    i think some of the major stuff from ultimates was actually nerfs from when the ults used to have unique debuffs

    im pretty sure before major maim was a thing, this ult actually had a unique -dmg debuff, then it was changed to major maim (when it was 30% debuff), and with the further nerfs to major/minor stuff its honestly too weak on the ultimate

    ultimates i think should have some form of unique effect, or at least a more potent buff/debuff than the normal major/minor stuff because its not up all the time

    if it was a unique effect, it doesnt have to be any stronger than major maim as it is right now so that it could potentially stack with it and actually have more of a use case, but nobody i know uses nova or morphs for debuffing (solar prison the other morph is sometimes used in pvp still due to the strong synergy)

    I understand what you're saying, but I think you're coming to the wrong conclusion. Yes, many unique Ultimate abilities were essentially nerfed when they were turned into named Major Buffs/Debuffs. But then Major Buffs started getting handed out like candy to Skills. The gap has started to close between Ultimates vs Skills. It's yet another identity issue ESO has as they blur the lines and dilute everything.

    > ultimates i think should have some form of unique effect, or at least a more potent buff/debuff than the normal major/minor stuff because its not up all the time

    And this is the result. Ultimates don't feel like Ultimates anymore because the Major buffs they give can be sourced from Skills more easily. So now there is an advocate base asking for Ultimates to have unique buffs again. It's inflation driven by lazy designers. "Just throw Major Berserk on it, that'll get players to use it"

    most of the better ults right now are focusing purely on dmg output (meteor, dawnbreaker, destro, etc) or the more bursty ones (dragon leap, incap)

    but a lot of the ones that are using these buffs/debuffs are losing dmg due to the skill balance and because of the problems with the buffs/debuffs not being as useful, they just become sub par, or worse (NB shadow ult)
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • Tyrant_Tim
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    Right, Templar is littered with abilities that have an identity crisis, and that’s what Solar Disturbance is.

    It’s an ultimate that wants to deal damage, provide a group synergy and a weak one at that, and mitigate for an entire group all in one, but does none of them even remotely decent.
  • Billium813
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    i think some of the major stuff from ultimates was actually nerfs from when the ults used to have unique debuffs

    im pretty sure before major maim was a thing, this ult actually had a unique -dmg debuff, then it was changed to major maim (when it was 30% debuff), and with the further nerfs to major/minor stuff its honestly too weak on the ultimate

    ultimates i think should have some form of unique effect, or at least a more potent buff/debuff than the normal major/minor stuff because its not up all the time

    if it was a unique effect, it doesnt have to be any stronger than major maim as it is right now so that it could potentially stack with it and actually have more of a use case, but nobody i know uses nova or morphs for debuffing (solar prison the other morph is sometimes used in pvp still due to the strong synergy)

    I understand what you're saying, but I think you're coming to the wrong conclusion. Yes, many unique Ultimate abilities were essentially nerfed when they were turned into named Major Buffs/Debuffs. But then Major Buffs started getting handed out like candy to Skills. The gap has started to close between Ultimates vs Skills. It's yet another identity issue ESO has as they blur the lines and dilute everything.

    > ultimates i think should have some form of unique effect, or at least a more potent buff/debuff than the normal major/minor stuff because its not up all the time

    And this is the result. Ultimates don't feel like Ultimates anymore because the Major buffs they give can be sourced from Skills more easily. So now there is an advocate base asking for Ultimates to have unique buffs again. It's inflation driven by lazy designers. "Just throw Major Berserk on it, that'll get players to use it"

    most of the better ults right now are focusing purely on dmg output (meteor, dawnbreaker, destro, etc) or the more bursty ones (dragon leap, incap)

    but a lot of the ones that are using these buffs/debuffs are losing dmg due to the skill balance and because of the problems with the buffs/debuffs not being as useful, they just become sub par, or worse (NB shadow ult)

    I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong. As they exist now, many Ultimates ARE pretty lack luster in comparison to how Skills are even being designed now.

    However, I am favor of LESS unique, unnamed buffs, which is the inevitable conclusion with how Major Buffs are being handled on Skills. Either we continue the arms race and inflation, or we advocate for better designs from ZOS that don't just slap Major Courage (it's coming, I'm surprised tbh that Arcanist didn't give this with a Skill) or Major Maim or Major Berserk on everything. I'm in favor of decreasing where appropriate and coming up with real, functional designs and improvements that impact gameplay and not just damage/numbers.
  • Billium813
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    Tyrant_Tim wrote: »
    back in the day players would cycle ultimates like these to survive high pressure execute phases, but it’s been almost 7 years now since the last time it was necessary. These skills need to be looked into.

    And wasn't that a glorious time? A time when someone in your group had to prepare for a phase and keep up Solar Disturbance, then know when to drop it to get the party through? When players had to actually work together?

    Now, oh, the Tank will just Clench it. No biggie. bleh.
  • Tyrant_Tim
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    Tyrant_Tim wrote: »
    back in the day players would cycle ultimates like these to survive high pressure execute phases, but it’s been almost 7 years now since the last time it was necessary. These skills need to be looked into.

    And wasn't that a glorious time? A time when someone in your group had to prepare for a phase and keep up Solar Disturbance, then know when to drop it to get the party through? When players had to actually work together?

    Now, oh, the Tank will just Clench it. No biggie. bleh.

    Yeah, there were actually Templars in group.

    We used to make pretty great healers too when we had Major Mending, prior to Warden stealing it from us, that’s been Templar though, the class that ZOS loves to rip apart for pieces and leave broken.

    Either way, it’s not the only class with problems, like that Nightblade ultimate I referenced.
    Edited by Tyrant_Tim on February 2, 2024 6:16PM
  • Billium813
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    Tyrant_Tim wrote: »
    Billium813 wrote: »
    Tyrant_Tim wrote: »
    back in the day players would cycle ultimates like these to survive high pressure execute phases, but it’s been almost 7 years now since the last time it was necessary. These skills need to be looked into.

    And wasn't that a glorious time? A time when someone in your group had to prepare for a phase and keep up Solar Disturbance, then know when to drop it to get the party through? When players had to actually work together?

    Now, oh, the Tank will just Clench it. No biggie. bleh.

    Yeah, there were actually Templars in group.

    We used to make pretty great healers too when we had Major Mending, prior to Warden stealing it from us, that’s been Templar though, the class that ZOS loves to rip apart for pieces and leave broken.

    And 50 patches later an entire class is completely invalidated under the banner of "increasing accessibility". Then, the class suffers an identity crisis as it's original design has been taken from it and the developers have to invent a NEW identity.
  • Tyrant_Tim
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    Tyrant_Tim wrote: »
    Billium813 wrote: »
    Tyrant_Tim wrote: »
    back in the day players would cycle ultimates like these to survive high pressure execute phases, but it’s been almost 7 years now since the last time it was necessary. These skills need to be looked into.

    And wasn't that a glorious time? A time when someone in your group had to prepare for a phase and keep up Solar Disturbance, then know when to drop it to get the party through? When players had to actually work together?

    Now, oh, the Tank will just Clench it. No biggie. bleh.

    Yeah, there were actually Templars in group.

    We used to make pretty great healers too when we had Major Mending, prior to Warden stealing it from us, that’s been Templar though, the class that ZOS loves to rip apart for pieces and leave broken.

    And 50 patches later an entire class is completely invalidated under the banner of "increasing accessibility". Then, the class suffers an identity crisis as it's original design has been taken from it and the developers have to invent a NEW identity.

    Right, Templars were cleave.
    • Puncturing Strikes used to do all of it’s damage to every target.
    • Blazing Spear used to be a really strong Damage-Over-Time skill with how it proc’d Burning Light.
    • Nova and Crescent are AoE.
    • Reflective Light used to tick every second dealing actual damage.
    • Eclipse used to blow up in an AoE for burst.
    • Ritual of Retribution used to tick every one second in a massive AoE of damage.
    • Backlash used to be a skill you could apply to multiple targets at once.

    I don’t think people realize just how lost the class truly is, there is no coming back from Arcanist, at least not in the same way it was.
    Edited by Tyrant_Tim on February 2, 2024 6:27PM
  • Tyrant_Tim
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    Should add Northern Storm morphs to the list OP. Wardens still battling with that one. Also costs 200+ funny enough.

    When I wrote the OP, I said skills “like” Consuming Darkness, and Northern Storm has been having a tough time of it, getting bogged down by that Major Protection group buff, so it definitely falls under that category.

    I’m unsure why these ultimates are not closer to 125-150, given they do absolutely nothing.
  • MashmalloMan
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    Tyrant_Tim wrote: »
    Should add Northern Storm morphs to the list OP. Wardens still battling with that one. Also costs 200+ funny enough.

    When I wrote the OP, I said skills “like” Consuming Darkness, and Northern Storm has been having a tough time of it, getting bogged down by that Major Protection group buff, so it definitely falls under that category.

    I’m unsure why these ultimates are not closer to 125-150, given they do absolutely nothing.

    Sorry. I like big fancy pictures :D

    But yeah they really should get a cost reduction at bare minimum if ZOS doesn't want to rework them.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on February 2, 2024 6:55PM
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • Dekrypted
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    They just don't care about templars. For a while necros we're blatantly ignored, started getting adjustments, now who knows what's next with them. Even the templar class set isn't good. Necros just doesn't work correctly.

    Templars? Nothing. We're not a class. They just haven't patched us out of the game yet.
    Edited by Dekrypted on February 2, 2024 7:00PM
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
    No longer active

    Templar Main
  • Tyrant_Tim
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    Tyrant_Tim wrote: »
    Should add Northern Storm morphs to the list OP. Wardens still battling with that one. Also costs 200+ funny enough.

    When I wrote the OP, I said skills “like” Consuming Darkness, and Northern Storm has been having a tough time of it, getting bogged down by that Major Protection group buff, so it definitely falls under that category.

    I’m unsure why these ultimates are not closer to 125-150, given they do absolutely nothing.

    Sorry. I like big fancy pictures :D

    But yeah they really should get a cost reduction at bare minimum if ZOS doesn't want to rework them.

    Here you go… Pre-Update 41 Northern Storm

    odr4izs2jivt.jpeg

    Some changes they make just don’t make sense… why they would cut off so much Weapon/Spell Damage with the duration change, maybe I’m seeing this wrong but it appears to be a nerf to the ultimate, when Bear is so much stronger to begin with.

    uho9uka8gtk6.png
    Edited by Tyrant_Tim on February 2, 2024 7:06PM
  • Tyrant_Tim
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    Dekrypted wrote: »
    They just don't care about templars. For a while necros we're blatantly ignored, started getting adjustments, now who knows what's next with them. Even the templar class set isn't good. Necros just doesn't work correctly.

    Templars? Nothing. We're not a class. They just haven't patched us out of the game yet.

    ZOS needs to hit the ground running Week 2 or 3.

    Templar was completely phased out to allow the DLC classes to exist, and it needs an entirely new identity.

    Templar should not be a single-target class and that’s what it’s become.
  • Billium813
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    Tyrant_Tim wrote: »
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    They just don't care about templars. For a while necros we're blatantly ignored, started getting adjustments, now who knows what's next with them. Even the templar class set isn't good. Necros just doesn't work correctly.

    Templars? Nothing. We're not a class. They just haven't patched us out of the game yet.

    Templar should not be a single-target class and that’s what it’s become.

    Idk if single target is an issue for Templar's identity necessarily. We have Piercing Javelin, Focused Charge, Sun Fire, Backlash, Eclipse, Radiant Destruction, Rushed Ceremony. Templar has lots of single target stuff to do. It's just that single target design should be done in a way that is still appreciative of the Templar aesthetic without sacrificing function.

    What aesthetic am I talking about?

    I think Templar can own AOE/channel pretty well as an identity. When I think of Templar, "Sacred Ground" is usually how what comes to mind. Templar builds a house to live in and anyone that comes near will have to step into Templar's domain. The downside is that Templar has to pickup and move that domain! That takes actions and costs and time and combat is a fluid moving process! (consider this is one reason that Templar would inherently have prowess with Duels, but i digress...)

    Ok, so Templar is all about AOEs and this "Sacred Ground" identity, cool. That means Templar shouldn't have much single target skills, right? Well... it's all about gameplay and how it makes sense.

    Take Radiant Destruction as an example. Let's say that I wanted to redesign Radiant Destruction to respect Templar's AOE "Sacred ground" aesthetic. What if the damage scaled based on distance to the target? IOW, when the target is nearby, the damage is much greater then when the target is at a distance. This may fit Templar's "Sacred Ground" design better and simultaneously help to curb its power. You want to fight players at close range, within your "Sacred ground". This ends up creating a natural advantageous play pattern with other Templar Skills.
  • Tyrant_Tim
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    I would love to have been in the room when the classes and abilities were being designed.

    That must have been so chaotic, because there’s no other reason why 10 years later people are still speculating on the purpose of a class.

    We’ve heard the developers state that the vision for Templars was one of making a Temple and defending it, yet the class has no defensive power whatsoever.

    All of their defense is bottlenecked into Healing, because shortly after launch, the original team decided they wanted only Templar to have great healing, killing off all of the Sorcerer healers that were present.

    Now we’re at a point in time where every class utilizes healing along with their original kits and Templar hasn’t received anything in house, Speed, Armor, Wards, Roots, AoE Stuns, Immovability, in fact, we have actually lost utility.

    We had Sun Shield before Battle Spirit, then for a patch after Battle Spirit, and then never again.

    There’s just no reason for it. 😔
  • ElderSmitter
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    I have tested many Ultimate's. Templar Everlasting Sweep which has an incredible Uptime does Massive AOE Damage. It even out did Ice Comet. When it Crits fully it's awesome watching everything Melt. It's ready to be reused almost when it ends and many times before it even ends. One of my Favorites and a staple in my PVE Build.
  • Tyrant_Tim
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    I have tested many Ultimate's. Templar Everlasting Sweep which has an incredible Uptime does Massive AOE Damage. It even out did Ice Comet. When it Crits fully it's awesome watching everything Melt. It's ready to be reused almost when it ends and many times before it even ends. One of my Favorites and a staple in my PVE Build.

    I was very happy when they extended the duration on Everlasting Sweep, as now there’s a PvE and PvP morph, I would love to see that theme carried out for Nova.
  • Tyrant_Tim
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    I was considering making a poll that asked “which abilities have you seen used the most” with the options being all of the least used skills in the game.

    I wonder what % would vote for Solar Disturbance.

    I haven’t seen a Nova with the swirling visual effect in content, ever.
  • JerBearESO
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    At this point they should simply make a new tier for these buff/debuff types; like minor/major/maximum, or something. Then they can make ultimates access the new tier. Solar disturbance would then apply maybe 20% maim, separately from the other 2 tiers
  • xDeusEJRx
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    Yeah they need to do something about these ultimates. I remember zos was trying to buff less used skills, guess they gave up on that quick considering these ultimates haven't been touched
    Solo PvP'er PS5 NA player

    90% of my body is made of Magblade
  • robpr
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    Nova (and Consuming Darkness) desperately needs some new effects. Back when Maim and Protection were rare and highly impactful (30%) you might considered using them on rare occasions. Nowadays those effects are too easily available to justify them being used as ultimate.
    While you could see Solar Prisons used in PVP when Harmony was a thing, now they are completely useless and outclassed by even Plaguebreak explosions.

    Either keep the theme of being a mix of damage and defensive ultimate by reducing its cost and giving unique damage dealt debuff or transform it into something else. Synergy need to do pre-nerf damage levels too and maybe even allow caster to self-synergy.
  • Tyrant_Tim
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    xDeusEJRx wrote: »
    Yeah they need to do something about these ultimates. I remember zos was trying to buff less used skills, guess they gave up on that quick considering these ultimates haven't been touched

    Don’t even get me going on all of the active skills seeing completely zero use right now.
  • Tyrant_Tim
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    @robpr, love the idea with the “self-synergy” considering how non-impactful the damage is to begin with.

    That would at least get Solar Prison some love.
    Edited by Tyrant_Tim on February 4, 2024 6:12PM
  • Billium813
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    0zizganucn8a.png

    If you're looking for a reason why Solar Prison may be used more then Solar Disturbance, IMO, the problem is that there isn't enough of a difference between the two morphs. Both apply the same debuff, both focus on damage. There is some minor differences on debuff duration, ~25 Ultimate difference (250 vs 225), and synergy damage. Big whoop. They both are functionally the same thing, but one does way more damage. Welp, since they are both DPS aligned, looks like we have a clear winner!!!

    This isn't really a unique issue with Nova though. When you have two morphs, both aligned for the same role and both with very subtle differences, you just create competition between the morphs. But the end result is that one is going to be the clear choice.

    Consider the Radiant Destruction morphs

    mddaxmwxbs7b.png

    Both are DPS executes. Both do similar damage, have the same cost, same distance, same function. So... Radiant Glory is just better! It has the sustain, it has heals. And at the cost of a negligible amount of damage. There isn't really a choice to be made here!

    Now, let's take a look at some GOOD morph designs on this topic

    31jobaqt2t9a.png
    uc11abirleqr.png
    ag8awyjkdzhm.png

    We can debate on the strength of these individual Skills, but purely based on design, these are good! They have morphs that have clear role differences (DPS vs Support) or just function differently (Self vs Group/Target). When ZOS designed these, it felt like they had some sort of intention in mind. They intended for the player to make a real choice. There are different play styles and roles to consider.

    Looking at Solar Prison vs Solar Disturbance... what's the choice for the player? So, you can either change the effects (damage/debuffs/buffs/snare) so that DPS would have a decision to make, or you can completely change one of the morphs to function differently (one morph DPS & one morph Support, for instance). I lean for the latter personally. I think competing on DPS is a tight rope to walk. One is likely going to be better and more advantageous, so you don't solve anything.
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