Stop Giving Nightblade Unnamed Damage Buffs
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FoJul✭✭✭✭SkaraMinoc wrote: »If Incap isn't allowed to have unnamed damage buffs then Crystal Fragments and Molten Whip should not have unnamed damage buffs either.
Imagine still asking for more on DK. SHEEEEESH1 -
SandandStars✭✭✭✭✭These threads with a bunch of nb mains are… endless.
My 2 cents: pvprs who are very skilled will have a clear advantage over other classes on nb.
Average or less experienced pvprs on nb will get killed as easily as any other class.
So there’s this discrepancy between a skilled nb who knows how to utilize the class’s considerable strengths, and those who don’t and then get defensive when ppl tell them their class is overtuned.
Ok, go ahead, argumentum ad nauseum…6 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭SandandStars wrote: »These threads with a bunch of nb mains are… endless.
My 2 cents: pvprs who are very skilled will have a clear advantage over other classes on nb.
Average or less experienced pvprs on nb will get killed as easily as any other class.
So there’s this discrepancy between a skilled nb who knows how to utilize the class’s considerable strengths, and those who don’t and then get defensive when ppl tell them their class is overtuned.
Ok, go ahead, argumentum ad nauseum…
How does this have anything to do with OP? Are you saying Nightblade is overtuned? or ppl are just bad?.
Please play a rangeblade
. Tell me that it is best class. 0 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭SandandStars wrote: »These threads with a bunch of nb mains are… endless.
My 2 cents: pvprs who are very skilled will have a clear advantage over other classes on nb.
Average or less experienced pvprs on nb will get killed as easily as any other class.
So there’s this discrepancy between a skilled nb who knows how to utilize the class’s considerable strengths, and those who don’t and then get defensive when ppl tell them their class is overtuned.
Ok, go ahead, argumentum ad nauseum…
How does this have anything to do with OP? Are you saying Nightblade is overtuned? or ppl are just bad?.
Please play a rangeblade. Tell me that it is best class.
Define rangeblade. Because if it's just nb that deals dmg from range than bowblade enters the chat.2 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭SandandStars wrote: »These threads with a bunch of nb mains are… endless.
My 2 cents: pvprs who are very skilled will have a clear advantage over other classes on nb.
Average or less experienced pvprs on nb will get killed as easily as any other class.
So there’s this discrepancy between a skilled nb who knows how to utilize the class’s considerable strengths, and those who don’t and then get defensive when ppl tell them their class is overtuned.
Ok, go ahead, argumentum ad nauseum…
How does this have anything to do with OP? Are you saying Nightblade is overtuned? or ppl are just bad?.
Please play a rangeblade. Tell me that it is best class.
Define rangeblade. Because if it's just nb that deals dmg from range than bowblade enters the chat.
Swallow soul Destro/Resto or Destro/Destro
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Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭SandandStars wrote: »These threads with a bunch of nb mains are… endless.
My 2 cents: pvprs who are very skilled will have a clear advantage over other classes on nb.
Average or less experienced pvprs on nb will get killed as easily as any other class.
So there’s this discrepancy between a skilled nb who knows how to utilize the class’s considerable strengths, and those who don’t and then get defensive when ppl tell them their class is overtuned.
Ok, go ahead, argumentum ad nauseum…
How does this have anything to do with OP? Are you saying Nightblade is overtuned? or ppl are just bad?.
Please play a rangeblade. Tell me that it is best class.
Define rangeblade. Because if it's just nb that deals dmg from range than bowblade enters the chat.
Swallow soul Destro/Resto or Destro/Destro
Expecting magblade to be viable and effective ranged playstyle is like expecting magsorc to be viable and effective meele brawler.
Certain things simply are not working well within specific class kits. I can tell You for example to play stealth playstyle on anything that isn't nightblade. It's still kinda possible but wouldn't make much sense.Edited by Galeriano on February 10, 2024 10:08PM4 -
JerBearESO✭✭✭✭SandandStars wrote: »These threads with a bunch of nb mains are… endless.
My 2 cents: pvprs who are very skilled will have a clear advantage over other classes on nb.
Average or less experienced pvprs on nb will get killed as easily as any other class.
So there’s this discrepancy between a skilled nb who knows how to utilize the class’s considerable strengths, and those who don’t and then get defensive when ppl tell them their class is overtuned.
Ok, go ahead, argumentum ad nauseum…
How does this have anything to do with OP? Are you saying Nightblade is overtuned? or ppl are just bad?.
Please play a rangeblade. Tell me that it is best class.
Define rangeblade. Because if it's just nb that deals dmg from range than bowblade enters the chat.
Swallow soul Destro/Resto or Destro/Destro
Why is bow not rangeblade? Am I supposed to use bow melee? Hit with bow, not arrows.... crap I've been doing it wrong!2 -
Lags✭✭✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »What the heck. We already did this and it is too strong, and this version is even stronger than it was before. This is absolutely bonkers.
Nightblade desperately needs nerfs to reign it in in PVP not buffs. This is a unique, unnamed, 20% damage buff, 30% really because it can now be stacked with Major Breserk, on a class that is already overpowered to the point of being able to do uncounterable one-shots. Are we even playing the same game ZOS?! Revert this.
Not to mention you're continuing to buff it's access to Minor Expedition, to make it miles better than Sorc, which is patently unfair which still needs the skill to be cast to get Minor Expedition. Stop this, it's crazy.
Uncounterable oneshots??? What are you talking about??? Currently NB is second worst class in PVP due to it's lack of burst potential, NB doesn't have a single burst ability like warden, sorc, DK, templar and necro does, the only way to play NB is to run full proc build, you will not have enough damage to kill a good player otherwise. Warden's combo deals up to 30k damage while NB doesn't even have a burst combo whatsoever... Good players just always dodge bows after incap and that's it, there is nothing you can do as NB. I'm ready to give 100 million gold to anyone pointing that NB is good if you will kill my warden as NB, and it's not because I have billionds of gold, I just know that there is no such player who will actually do this because NB is DEAD in pvp
One simple question.
If nightblade is "seconds worst class in PvP" and "DEAD in PvP" than why it's the most popular class in PvP atm?
Not here to clown, but mainly because of cloak. A lot of Openworld builds are gankers. Gankers have been around since the game has came out, and probably will never change.
Ppl would rather hop in stealth and 2 tap someone and stealth away again. No its not going to work everytime, but there is enough low tier players in Cyrodil to have fun with it.
Remember, in almost all Online games, there is more casual gamers than PvP sweats.
To be honest that really didn't answer my question.
Like I get what You're saying but it does not answer the question I asked in regards to very specific claims about nightblades supposedly extremly weak condition in PvP.
Your question was why is nightblade the most popular class, even tho ppl are saying its bad?
Nightblade has bow/incap. Yes alchimiste is right, the skilled person behind the class needs to switch it up and make it work.
Doesn't change the fact that nightblade almost has no pressure. Nightblade also, doesnt have no way of timing any 2 burst abilities together. (unless you wanna count the bomber combo).
Unlike almost all other classes, where you can time 2 or 3 abilities at once. While having constant pressure up. The easiest way to kill ppl is Incap/bow from stealth cause 7 times out of 10, the person you hit isn't expecting it.
To sum it all up and answer your question at the same time, you have to open up and see both sides. Compared to other classes, nightblade is the only playstyle, that can kill very quickly, and get away. Which is almost the whole purpose of OW.
EDIT: I had this in my head but didnt type it oops. Anyways, on the opposite sides of things, some brawlers or even other playstyles (me as rangeblade) Literally can't even kill noob arcanist/dk's. In some ways Nightblade is so bad, and in other ways its good. Brawler nightblade is decent, but I wouldn't personally put it above Arc/DK/ or warden.
ESO's competitor has a open world mode, and the stealth class is also the best spec/most popular in that game. It just makes sense.
when you make such outlandish claims, like nightblade is one of the worst pvp classes and that it has no burst, you need to back it up. You have not done that. No one has done that in this thread because it is just factually incorrect. Whether you are playing hybrid nightblade fishing for bow crits, or a ganker insta killing most players, or a bow build being very hard to kill while dealing huge damage from range, the class hits extremely hard, has huge survivability with cloak/shade/heals, and has some of the best buffs/debuffs out of any class. dueling, bgs, bombing, ganking, solo pvp, group pvp, it does everything and it does it extremely well.
It has extremely easy access to very valuable major/minor buffs/debuffs. Major defile, minor vuln, minor berserk, major berserk, major evasion, major breach, minor savagery, major protection, minor protection, major savagery/prophecy on both bars at all times, major expedition, minor expedition, minor endurance, minor intellect, MAJOR COWARDICE, minor maim, major resolve, major vitality, minor mending, empower, guaranteed overcharge that apllies minor magickasteal, major brutality, minor courage, minor cowardice.
On top of all that it has random % based damage increases. as of now, 20% from incap and 10% from SA. Thats massive. Plus the class synergizes very well. Crit and crit damage are very strong, especially on a class that can guarantee crits and has a skill that hits harder than most other ults in the game. You say nightblade has no pressure? I say that is 100% wrong. Spamming light attack/concealed weapon is pressure. Spamming it after an incap is massive pressure. Throwing a merciless in when you can. An extremely strong, well scaling, execute for when players are low. It has great sustain tools, is very fast, has skills to get away from players. The list goes on and on. It is an unbelievably over tuned class. I have a lot of time on nightblade, among other classes. I know it well. And i just cant figure out how anyone could come to the conclusion its weak.
now lets compare to something like necro, the actual worst class in pvp.
major vuln, major defile, major breach, major resolve, major protection, minor protection, minor vulnerability, minor maim, empower, minor defile. And that concludes the list of valuable buffs/debuffs for necro.
But it also comes to how a class functions. Necro used to have tankiness that mattered. It used to have boneyard until they nerfed it into the gutter. It can still bomb fairly well, not as well as a nightblade but well. It can run a bash build, but so can any class, necro just has a good ult for it. And it has some passives here and there that are useful. But its nothing compared to a nightblade. Not even close. especially with damage skills. And it honestly makes me wonder how the class remains this terrible while nightblade is so over powered.
Also one other thing. Im curious. When you say "Unlike almost all other classes, where you can time 2 or 3 abilities at once. While having constant pressure up" are you just talking about dots? Im a bit confused. Constant pressure while hitting a few damage skills, to me, means dots or a passive damage skill. Something like sub assault, blastbones (lol), power of the light(kind of), or dots. and to that i would say, if you want dots run dots. You can weave in a merciless every few seconds that hits harder than most ults. Just because some players, at this point, know to dodge it after you incap doesnt mean it isnt a completely overtuned skill.4 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »What the heck. We already did this and it is too strong, and this version is even stronger than it was before. This is absolutely bonkers.
Nightblade desperately needs nerfs to reign it in in PVP not buffs. This is a unique, unnamed, 20% damage buff, 30% really because it can now be stacked with Major Breserk, on a class that is already overpowered to the point of being able to do uncounterable one-shots. Are we even playing the same game ZOS?! Revert this.
Not to mention you're continuing to buff it's access to Minor Expedition, to make it miles better than Sorc, which is patently unfair which still needs the skill to be cast to get Minor Expedition. Stop this, it's crazy.
Uncounterable oneshots??? What are you talking about??? Currently NB is second worst class in PVP due to it's lack of burst potential, NB doesn't have a single burst ability like warden, sorc, DK, templar and necro does, the only way to play NB is to run full proc build, you will not have enough damage to kill a good player otherwise. Warden's combo deals up to 30k damage while NB doesn't even have a burst combo whatsoever... Good players just always dodge bows after incap and that's it, there is nothing you can do as NB. I'm ready to give 100 million gold to anyone pointing that NB is good if you will kill my warden as NB, and it's not because I have billionds of gold, I just know that there is no such player who will actually do this because NB is DEAD in pvp
One simple question.
If nightblade is "seconds worst class in PvP" and "DEAD in PvP" than why it's the most popular class in PvP atm?
Not here to clown, but mainly because of cloak. A lot of Openworld builds are gankers. Gankers have been around since the game has came out, and probably will never change.
Ppl would rather hop in stealth and 2 tap someone and stealth away again. No its not going to work everytime, but there is enough low tier players in Cyrodil to have fun with it.
Remember, in almost all Online games, there is more casual gamers than PvP sweats.
To be honest that really didn't answer my question.
Like I get what You're saying but it does not answer the question I asked in regards to very specific claims about nightblades supposedly extremly weak condition in PvP.
Your question was why is nightblade the most popular class, even tho ppl are saying its bad?
Nightblade has bow/incap. Yes alchimiste is right, the skilled person behind the class needs to switch it up and make it work.
Doesn't change the fact that nightblade almost has no pressure. Nightblade also, doesnt have no way of timing any 2 burst abilities together. (unless you wanna count the bomber combo).
Unlike almost all other classes, where you can time 2 or 3 abilities at once. While having constant pressure up. The easiest way to kill ppl is Incap/bow from stealth cause 7 times out of 10, the person you hit isn't expecting it.
To sum it all up and answer your question at the same time, you have to open up and see both sides. Compared to other classes, nightblade is the only playstyle, that can kill very quickly, and get away. Which is almost the whole purpose of OW.
EDIT: I had this in my head but didnt type it oops. Anyways, on the opposite sides of things, some brawlers or even other playstyles (me as rangeblade) Literally can't even kill noob arcanist/dk's. In some ways Nightblade is so bad, and in other ways its good. Brawler nightblade is decent, but I wouldn't personally put it above Arc/DK/ or warden.
ESO's competitor has a open world mode, and the stealth class is also the best spec/most popular in that game. It just makes sense.
when you make such outlandish claims, like nightblade is one of the worst pvp classes and that it has no burst, you need to back it up. You have not done that. No one has done that in this thread because it is just factually incorrect. Whether you are playing hybrid nightblade fishing for bow crits, or a ganker insta killing most players, or a bow build being very hard to kill while dealing huge damage from range, the class hits extremely hard, has huge survivability with cloak/shade/heals, and has some of the best buffs/debuffs out of any class. dueling, bgs, bombing, ganking, solo pvp, group pvp, it does everything and it does it extremely well.
It has extremely easy access to very valuable major/minor buffs/debuffs. Major defile, minor vuln, minor berserk, major berserk, major evasion, major breach, minor savagery, major protection, minor protection, major savagery/prophecy on both bars at all times, major expedition, minor expedition, minor endurance, minor intellect, MAJOR COWARDICE, minor maim, major resolve, major vitality, minor mending, empower, guaranteed overcharge that apllies minor magickasteal, major brutality, minor courage, minor cowardice.
On top of all that it has random % based damage increases. as of now, 20% from incap and 10% from SA. Thats massive. Plus the class synergizes very well. Crit and crit damage are very strong, especially on a class that can guarantee crits and has a skill that hits harder than most other ults in the game. You say nightblade has no pressure? I say that is 100% wrong. Spamming light attack/concealed weapon is pressure. Spamming it after an incap is massive pressure. Throwing a merciless in when you can. An extremely strong, well scaling, execute for when players are low. It has great sustain tools, is very fast, has skills to get away from players. The list goes on and on. It is an unbelievably over tuned class. I have a lot of time on nightblade, among other classes. I know it well. And i just cant figure out how anyone could come to the conclusion its weak.
now lets compare to something like necro, the actual worst class in pvp.
major vuln, major defile, major breach, major resolve, major protection, minor protection, minor vulnerability, minor maim, empower, minor defile. And that concludes the list of valuable buffs/debuffs for necro.
But it also comes to how a class functions. Necro used to have tankiness that mattered. It used to have boneyard until they nerfed it into the gutter. It can still bomb fairly well, not as well as a nightblade but well. It can run a bash build, but so can any class, necro just has a good ult for it. And it has some passives here and there that are useful. But its nothing compared to a nightblade. Not even close. especially with damage skills. And it honestly makes me wonder how the class remains this terrible while nightblade is so over powered.
Also one other thing. Im curious. When you say "Unlike almost all other classes, where you can time 2 or 3 abilities at once. While having constant pressure up" are you just talking about dots? Im a bit confused. Constant pressure while hitting a few damage skills, to me, means dots or a passive damage skill. Something like sub assault, blastbones (lol), power of the light(kind of), or dots. and to that i would say, if you want dots run dots. You can weave in a merciless every few seconds that hits harder than most ults. Just because some players, at this point, know to dodge it after you incap doesnt mean it isnt a completely overtuned skill.
See here you are ignoring the entire class because of melee playstyle. There's a particular build that works (hyrbid blade) and everyone can't accept the fact that other playstyles are actualy really bad.
A simple way to put this is, Stamblade vs Magblade use to be a huge difference in playstyles. Whether you call magblade hybrid blade or what, that still is stamblade just with better suited morphs. Magblade is ranged and used to be on the same page as sorcerer.
Quit saying a class is overtuned because of a playstyle. You want to talk about a really overtuned class. Look at DK, and even warden.
Call it cope, call it *nightblade main syndrome*, call it whatever you like. I'm going to call it a unbalance of classes.
Look at plar, Rangeplar is still very strong...Jabplar sucks.
Most people log into their nightblade and are wearing the same sets, and slotting the same skills. This means 1 (meta) build works and you can branch off of that one build. There is no creativity.
As for Sorc, you have several options.
Warden you have several options
DK you have all the options
ARcanist is still kinda in the air cause its newish.
Necro is just bad.
Templar is almost bad
Outlandish comments huh? I wasn't even the one who said nightblade was the worst class. A skilled person can play the worst class and make it look good no matter what.
I answered a question from someone else, "If nightblade is "seconds worst class in PvP" and "DEAD in PvP" than why it's the most popular class in PvP atm?
If anything nightblade has instant burst, and no pressure. Its one of the only classes with instant burst. Almost all the other classes are delayed burst, and delayed burst is a lot easier to kill ppl in PvP. Nightblade has a burst spammable and a instant burst (merciless).
Nightblade lacks the ability to time Ultimate/Burst/Spammable all in the same GCD, all while making sure the opponet is stunned and takes the full blow. Every other class has the ability to have 2 or more burst abilities timed together. Which makes it a lot easier to fight people with. Meaning I can either land incap or Bow, and sometimes neither.
In conclusion, Nightblade is strong, yes very strong. Has been for a very long time. But its obviously not balanced. No class is perfectly balanced. As much as we talk here on the forums about how you hate the class cause your class doesn't have it, just means that the community is divided on their opinions. Which in turn means probably no changes.
If you know how to fight a nightblade you will never die. Eso PVP is 80% skill and 20% build.
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Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I just want to point out the range blade build with force pulse that is every bit as strong as melee blade. It's only not everywhere because players have kept it under wraps to prevent it getting NB the immediate nerf hammer (like savage werewolf did to sorc).Yes, it doesn't use swallow soul, but it is still ranged blade at its core (even more so with the siphoning attacks changes making it the new and improved crit surge granting that build even better healing than the old swallow soul build had). The damage also gets a buff next patch thanks to the changes to status effects and NB gets to run SSC again without double dipping major berserk.
NB also has the best kit for bombing (another build option NB has) and the ever present gankblades that have existed since the beginning of the game.
Sorc also (currently on live servers) only really has 1 viable build, proc stacking. This does (thankfully) change next patch (assuming there's no nuking of the changes in the upcoming week 3/4/5 notes).The proc build is either rele + bow or MDW + WoF, but both are the same builds, stacking procs and letting the procs play the game for you. Magsorc can technically run draugrkin, but this build is still inferior to the above listed proc builds.Just wanted to note these points because sorc has less viable build diversity overall than NB (currently on live), due to how overloaded and efficient many of NB skills are with secondary effects and just how efficient NBs bar space actually is.
As it currently stands, rangeblade and even rangeplar and rangeden to an extent (depending on the player) perform better than sorc does for a ranged playstyle outside of 2 specific niches:
- Proc stacking
- Streak (not even BoL, only streak)
Swallow soul could use some attention in the future as could sap essence (other morph of extraction and one of my favourite NB abilities) and consuming darkness, but the overall NB kit is just vastly superior to the other classes (for PvP) and has so many options available to it that outside of other very strong classes such as DK and Arcanist and (polar) wardens, it just doesn't feel worth it to play the other classes at that high level currently, especially if you don't enjoy the 1 viable build/playstyle those classes have.3 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »I just want to point out the range blade build with force pulse that is every bit as strong as melee blade. It's only not everywhere because players have kept it under wraps to prevent it getting NB the immediate nerf hammer (like savage werewolf did to sorc).Yes, it doesn't use swallow soul, but it is still ranged blade at its core (even more so with the siphoning attacks changes making it the new and improved crit surge granting that build even better healing than the old swallow soul build had). The damage also gets a buff next patch thanks to the changes to status effects and NB gets to run SSC again without double dipping major berserk.
NB also has the best kit for bombing (another build option NB has) and the ever present gankblades that have existed since the beginning of the game.
Sorc also (currently on live servers) only really has 1 viable build, proc stacking. This does (thankfully) change next patch (assuming there's no nuking of the changes in the upcoming week 3/4/5 notes).The proc build is either rele + bow or MDW + WoF, but both are the same builds, stacking procs and letting the procs play the game for you. Magsorc can technically run draugrkin, but this build is still inferior to the above listed proc builds.Just wanted to note these points because sorc has less viable build diversity overall than NB (currently on live), due to how overloaded and efficient many of NB skills are with secondary effects and just how efficient NBs bar space actually is.
As it currently stands, rangeblade and even rangeplar and rangeden to an extent (depending on the player) perform better than sorc does for a ranged playstyle outside of 2 specific niches:
- Proc stacking
- Streak (not even BoL, only streak)
Swallow soul could use some attention in the future as could sap essence (other morph of extraction and one of my favourite NB abilities) and consuming darkness, but the overall NB kit is just vastly superior to the other classes (for PvP) and has so many options available to it that outside of other very strong classes such as DK and Arcanist and (polar) wardens, it just doesn't feel worth it to play the other classes at that high level currently, especially if you don't enjoy the 1 viable build/playstyle those classes have.
Look, you are obviously very knowledgeable about builds.
But don’t say nbs have multiple builds, but the other builds are “being kept secret”, that is not an answer.
Nor should you go on to say that sorcs only have one build, then when you describe that one build, you are not even describing their (probably) most popular build (pet sorc-oak/ha).
Nbs are terrible in pve. They need dramatic buffs to get them up to speed to many other classes. (Yes, yes, necros need help too.) This nb skill change on the pts is not going to do it.
So if these are not the right buffs for nbs, what do you propose they should be to get them up to speed?
And before you say something along the lines of “monster only” buffs, do any other class have that? Because I am not aware of any dramatic “monster only” buffs on other classes.
So what should be the change that nb dps get, that works across a range of weapons, that helps them in pve?0 -
Lags✭✭✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »What the heck. We already did this and it is too strong, and this version is even stronger than it was before. This is absolutely bonkers.
Nightblade desperately needs nerfs to reign it in in PVP not buffs. This is a unique, unnamed, 20% damage buff, 30% really because it can now be stacked with Major Breserk, on a class that is already overpowered to the point of being able to do uncounterable one-shots. Are we even playing the same game ZOS?! Revert this.
Not to mention you're continuing to buff it's access to Minor Expedition, to make it miles better than Sorc, which is patently unfair which still needs the skill to be cast to get Minor Expedition. Stop this, it's crazy.
Uncounterable oneshots??? What are you talking about??? Currently NB is second worst class in PVP due to it's lack of burst potential, NB doesn't have a single burst ability like warden, sorc, DK, templar and necro does, the only way to play NB is to run full proc build, you will not have enough damage to kill a good player otherwise. Warden's combo deals up to 30k damage while NB doesn't even have a burst combo whatsoever... Good players just always dodge bows after incap and that's it, there is nothing you can do as NB. I'm ready to give 100 million gold to anyone pointing that NB is good if you will kill my warden as NB, and it's not because I have billionds of gold, I just know that there is no such player who will actually do this because NB is DEAD in pvp
One simple question.
If nightblade is "seconds worst class in PvP" and "DEAD in PvP" than why it's the most popular class in PvP atm?
Not here to clown, but mainly because of cloak. A lot of Openworld builds are gankers. Gankers have been around since the game has came out, and probably will never change.
Ppl would rather hop in stealth and 2 tap someone and stealth away again. No its not going to work everytime, but there is enough low tier players in Cyrodil to have fun with it.
Remember, in almost all Online games, there is more casual gamers than PvP sweats.
To be honest that really didn't answer my question.
Like I get what You're saying but it does not answer the question I asked in regards to very specific claims about nightblades supposedly extremly weak condition in PvP.
Your question was why is nightblade the most popular class, even tho ppl are saying its bad?
Nightblade has bow/incap. Yes alchimiste is right, the skilled person behind the class needs to switch it up and make it work.
Doesn't change the fact that nightblade almost has no pressure. Nightblade also, doesnt have no way of timing any 2 burst abilities together. (unless you wanna count the bomber combo).
Unlike almost all other classes, where you can time 2 or 3 abilities at once. While having constant pressure up. The easiest way to kill ppl is Incap/bow from stealth cause 7 times out of 10, the person you hit isn't expecting it.
To sum it all up and answer your question at the same time, you have to open up and see both sides. Compared to other classes, nightblade is the only playstyle, that can kill very quickly, and get away. Which is almost the whole purpose of OW.
EDIT: I had this in my head but didnt type it oops. Anyways, on the opposite sides of things, some brawlers or even other playstyles (me as rangeblade) Literally can't even kill noob arcanist/dk's. In some ways Nightblade is so bad, and in other ways its good. Brawler nightblade is decent, but I wouldn't personally put it above Arc/DK/ or warden.
ESO's competitor has a open world mode, and the stealth class is also the best spec/most popular in that game. It just makes sense.
when you make such outlandish claims, like nightblade is one of the worst pvp classes and that it has no burst, you need to back it up. You have not done that. No one has done that in this thread because it is just factually incorrect. Whether you are playing hybrid nightblade fishing for bow crits, or a ganker insta killing most players, or a bow build being very hard to kill while dealing huge damage from range, the class hits extremely hard, has huge survivability with cloak/shade/heals, and has some of the best buffs/debuffs out of any class. dueling, bgs, bombing, ganking, solo pvp, group pvp, it does everything and it does it extremely well.
It has extremely easy access to very valuable major/minor buffs/debuffs. Major defile, minor vuln, minor berserk, major berserk, major evasion, major breach, minor savagery, major protection, minor protection, major savagery/prophecy on both bars at all times, major expedition, minor expedition, minor endurance, minor intellect, MAJOR COWARDICE, minor maim, major resolve, major vitality, minor mending, empower, guaranteed overcharge that apllies minor magickasteal, major brutality, minor courage, minor cowardice.
On top of all that it has random % based damage increases. as of now, 20% from incap and 10% from SA. Thats massive. Plus the class synergizes very well. Crit and crit damage are very strong, especially on a class that can guarantee crits and has a skill that hits harder than most other ults in the game. You say nightblade has no pressure? I say that is 100% wrong. Spamming light attack/concealed weapon is pressure. Spamming it after an incap is massive pressure. Throwing a merciless in when you can. An extremely strong, well scaling, execute for when players are low. It has great sustain tools, is very fast, has skills to get away from players. The list goes on and on. It is an unbelievably over tuned class. I have a lot of time on nightblade, among other classes. I know it well. And i just cant figure out how anyone could come to the conclusion its weak.
now lets compare to something like necro, the actual worst class in pvp.
major vuln, major defile, major breach, major resolve, major protection, minor protection, minor vulnerability, minor maim, empower, minor defile. And that concludes the list of valuable buffs/debuffs for necro.
But it also comes to how a class functions. Necro used to have tankiness that mattered. It used to have boneyard until they nerfed it into the gutter. It can still bomb fairly well, not as well as a nightblade but well. It can run a bash build, but so can any class, necro just has a good ult for it. And it has some passives here and there that are useful. But its nothing compared to a nightblade. Not even close. especially with damage skills. And it honestly makes me wonder how the class remains this terrible while nightblade is so over powered.
Also one other thing. Im curious. When you say "Unlike almost all other classes, where you can time 2 or 3 abilities at once. While having constant pressure up" are you just talking about dots? Im a bit confused. Constant pressure while hitting a few damage skills, to me, means dots or a passive damage skill. Something like sub assault, blastbones (lol), power of the light(kind of), or dots. and to that i would say, if you want dots run dots. You can weave in a merciless every few seconds that hits harder than most ults. Just because some players, at this point, know to dodge it after you incap doesnt mean it isnt a completely overtuned skill.
See here you are ignoring the entire class because of melee playstyle. There's a particular build that works (hyrbid blade) and everyone can't accept the fact that other playstyles are actualy really bad.
A simple way to put this is, Stamblade vs Magblade use to be a huge difference in playstyles. Whether you call magblade hybrid blade or what, that still is stamblade just with better suited morphs. Magblade is ranged and used to be on the same page as sorcerer.
Quit saying a class is overtuned because of a playstyle. You want to talk about a really overtuned class. Look at DK, and even warden.
Call it cope, call it *nightblade main syndrome*, call it whatever you like. I'm going to call it a unbalance of classes.
Look at plar, Rangeplar is still very strong...Jabplar sucks.
Most people log into their nightblade and are wearing the same sets, and slotting the same skills. This means 1 (meta) build works and you can branch off of that one build. There is no creativity.
As for Sorc, you have several options.
Warden you have several options
DK you have all the options
ARcanist is still kinda in the air cause its newish.
Necro is just bad.
Templar is almost bad
Outlandish comments huh? I wasn't even the one who said nightblade was the worst class. A skilled person can play the worst class and make it look good no matter what.
I answered a question from someone else, "If nightblade is "seconds worst class in PvP" and "DEAD in PvP" than why it's the most popular class in PvP atm?
If anything nightblade has instant burst, and no pressure. Its one of the only classes with instant burst. Almost all the other classes are delayed burst, and delayed burst is a lot easier to kill ppl in PvP. Nightblade has a burst spammable and a instant burst (merciless).
Nightblade lacks the ability to time Ultimate/Burst/Spammable all in the same GCD, all while making sure the opponet is stunned and takes the full blow. Every other class has the ability to have 2 or more burst abilities timed together. Which makes it a lot easier to fight people with. Meaning I can either land incap or Bow, and sometimes neither.
In conclusion, Nightblade is strong, yes very strong. Has been for a very long time. But its obviously not balanced. No class is perfectly balanced. As much as we talk here on the forums about how you hate the class cause your class doesn't have it, just means that the community is divided on their opinions. Which in turn means probably no changes.
If you know how to fight a nightblade you will never die. Eso PVP is 80% skill and 20% build.
80% skill and 20% build? idk, i dont think theres nearly as much skill left as you think. I think builds make a lot more difference than you give them credit for. As for outlandish comments, here you go.
"Doesn't change the fact that nightblade almost has no pressure. Nightblade also, doesnt have no way of timing any 2 burst abilities together. (unless you wanna count the bomber combo)."
Maybe not as outlandish as @Prionyx saying that its one of the worst classes in pvp lol, but still outlandish. Or maybe our definitions of pressure are different. But I dont dislike nightblade. I play a lot of nightblade. I play a lot of everything, besides templar but i have played it a fair bit in the past. And ive played a lot in general. I was just pointing out that compared to necro it has access to an insane amount of very useful major/minor buffs and debuffs, as well as ridiculous random % damage bonuses. and not just compared to necro.
And of course nightblade isnt balanced. Thats the point of this thread. It is exceptionally over tuned. Could range nb or mag nb be better? Yes. But it is not pigeon holed as you say it is. People do not just run one nightblade build, as you said. Hybrid melee nb with dw or 2h and destro, stam nb with 2h bow, melee ganking, bow ganking, bombing. Even dot focused nightblades still smacking people with hard hitting merciless procs. It has extremely good healing, very good sustain, and extremely, extremely, good burst damage.
And again, when you say pressure what are you talking about? Dots? or corrosive? passive damage? When you say delayed burst, are you talking about a sub assault? Or combing something with a meteor or dawnbreaker? Because only some play styles are like that, and they all still have counters just like an incap bow.
The difference with a nightblade is that it always hits hard. Every 5 seconds you can be getting hit with a skill that hits harder than most ultimates. And the spammable hits hard and is smooth to use. But of course when you're fighting a good player they will always know how to counter things, and if you play well you will too. So around and around you go, trying to catch the other player. With a sub dawny, with a meteor javeline, with an incap bow, etc etc. But just because an incap bow may be easy to dodge for some players does not mean it still doesnt hit waaay harder than it should. And again, even a nightblade after an incap has huge damage. And again, the buffs and debuffs are ridiculous.Edited by Lags on February 11, 2024 10:02PM2 -
ArctosCethlenn✭✭✭Honestly it might be a good idea for zos to split merciless resolve's damage. If it changed from a single direct hit for X to a direct hit for x/2 plus a dot for x/2 over 4 seconds, pve numbers would be largely unchanged but it'd cut the burst potential somewhat in pvp.
It'd probably also help if Strike from the Shadows was changed to only give its buff after using vampire skills, since nightblade is currently the only class which can utilize that passive with high uptime without needing to make any specific build or design choices.Edited by ArctosCethlenn on February 11, 2024 11:41PM3 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »I just want to point out the range blade build with force pulse that is every bit as strong as melee blade. It's only not everywhere because players have kept it under wraps to prevent it getting NB the immediate nerf hammer (like savage werewolf did to sorc).Yes, it doesn't use swallow soul, but it is still ranged blade at its core (even more so with the siphoning attacks changes making it the new and improved crit surge granting that build even better healing than the old swallow soul build had). The damage also gets a buff next patch thanks to the changes to status effects and NB gets to run SSC again without double dipping major berserk.
NB also has the best kit for bombing (another build option NB has) and the ever present gankblades that have existed since the beginning of the game.
Sorc also (currently on live servers) only really has 1 viable build, proc stacking. This does (thankfully) change next patch (assuming there's no nuking of the changes in the upcoming week 3/4/5 notes).The proc build is either rele + bow or MDW + WoF, but both are the same builds, stacking procs and letting the procs play the game for you. Magsorc can technically run draugrkin, but this build is still inferior to the above listed proc builds.Just wanted to note these points because sorc has less viable build diversity overall than NB (currently on live), due to how overloaded and efficient many of NB skills are with secondary effects and just how efficient NBs bar space actually is.
As it currently stands, rangeblade and even rangeplar and rangeden to an extent (depending on the player) perform better than sorc does for a ranged playstyle outside of 2 specific niches:
- Proc stacking
- Streak (not even BoL, only streak)
Swallow soul could use some attention in the future as could sap essence (other morph of extraction and one of my favourite NB abilities) and consuming darkness, but the overall NB kit is just vastly superior to the other classes (for PvP) and has so many options available to it that outside of other very strong classes such as DK and Arcanist and (polar) wardens, it just doesn't feel worth it to play the other classes at that high level currently, especially if you don't enjoy the 1 viable build/playstyle those classes have.
Look, you are obviously very knowledgeable about builds.
But don’t say nbs have multiple builds, but the other builds are “being kept secret”, that is not an answer.
Nor should you go on to say that sorcs only have one build, then when you describe that one build, you are not even describing their (probably) most popular build (pet sorc-oak/ha).
Nbs are terrible in pve. They need dramatic buffs to get them up to speed to many other classes. (Yes, yes, necros need help too.) This nb skill change on the pts is not going to do it.
So if these are not the right buffs for nbs, what do you propose they should be to get them up to speed?
And before you say something along the lines of “monster only” buffs, do any other class have that? Because I am not aware of any dramatic “monster only” buffs on other classes.
So what should be the change that nb dps get, that works across a range of weapons, that helps them in pve?
I was referring to NB in PvP not PvE. I have already stated countless times that NB needs help in PvE specifically.
NB also does have multiple builds for PvP. I listed a bunch, as did others, but I'll spell them out again:
- melee brawler (typically hybrid)
- bow (typically a ganker)
- staff (brawler/ganker hybrid)
- bomber
- melee stamina
- melee magicka
I also said that only 1 specific build was being kept secret, not all of them. Many very strong (in PvP) builds for NB have been posted on countless threads here on the forums, including builds for most playstyles I listed.
Suggestions have been put forward to buff NB for PvE that don't include the clauses such as against monsters only, suggestions such as:
- buffing twisting path damage morph
- buffing cripple
The reason most buffs that players have been proposing for NB include the against monsters clause, is because the devs seem to be extremely stubbornly holding firm on keeping NB as a single target burst damage class and there is literally zero way to buff NB for PvE while keeping it as a single target burst class that doesn't make it stupidly broken overpowered (even more so) in PvP without restricting those buffs to against monsters only. It's just not possible.
If the devs finally decide to rework abilities properly from scratch to better suit PvE and make some morphs more PvE focused (sustained damage over time instead of very high instant bursts of damage), then for sure those restrictions won't need to be included then, but that can only happen when that change in design philosophy is adjusted and until then, the simplest way to buff NB while keeping its current playstyle/theme is to limit those buffs to PvE only with against monsters only clauses.3 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Expecting magblade to be viable and effective ranged playstyle is like expecting magsorc to be viable and effective meele brawler.
Except Swallow Soul blades were strong for some time in the distant past and later when Melee MagBlade was non existent ranged mNBs continued to exist as Caluurion's delivery service. So its not a perfect analogy.
Stam and Mag NB was always ranged or melee unlike say mSorc and sDK which were always quite clearly strictly ranged or strictly melee.
In accordance with Ninja, Wizard, and Knight traditions.
Edit: to me swapping out Swallow Soul for Force Pulse does make ranged mNB viable for sure - it makes ranged anything viable and has for years - but it's not the same playstyle - which old playstyle I guess went away when they slowed the travel speed of Swallow Soul and/or made it dodgeable circa 2019? 2018?
Edited by Urzigurumash on February 12, 2024 8:16AMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
lostineternity✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »What the heck. We already did this and it is too strong, and this version is even stronger than it was before. This is absolutely bonkers.
Nightblade desperately needs nerfs to reign it in in PVP not buffs. This is a unique, unnamed, 20% damage buff, 30% really because it can now be stacked with Major Breserk, on a class that is already overpowered to the point of being able to do uncounterable one-shots. Are we even playing the same game ZOS?! Revert this.
Not to mention you're continuing to buff it's access to Minor Expedition, to make it miles better than Sorc, which is patently unfair which still needs the skill to be cast to get Minor Expedition. Stop this, it's crazy.
Please try to read patchnote and then try to read it again and again until you understand what's goin on.
NB lost their 10% buff for incap and focus and got buff for only one skill - CW. If you are being killed by nb with CW the only problem is your skill issue not nb as class, sorry to say it but it's true. Try to build for pvp more than 20k hp and 10k armor.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭lostineternity wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »What the heck. We already did this and it is too strong, and this version is even stronger than it was before. This is absolutely bonkers.
Nightblade desperately needs nerfs to reign it in in PVP not buffs. This is a unique, unnamed, 20% damage buff, 30% really because it can now be stacked with Major Breserk, on a class that is already overpowered to the point of being able to do uncounterable one-shots. Are we even playing the same game ZOS?! Revert this.
Not to mention you're continuing to buff it's access to Minor Expedition, to make it miles better than Sorc, which is patently unfair which still needs the skill to be cast to get Minor Expedition. Stop this, it's crazy.
Please try to read patchnote and then try to read it again and again until you understand what's goin on.
NB lost their 10% buff for incap and focus and got buff for only one skill - CW. If you are being killed by nb with CW the only problem is your skill issue not nb as class, sorry to say it but it's true. Try to build for pvp more than 20k hp and 10k armor.
Nah sorry CW spam has been the leading One Button playstyle for a hot minute - even if it's just for potato mashing - any One Button Potato Mashing deserves a nerfXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
lostineternity✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »lostineternity wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »What the heck. We already did this and it is too strong, and this version is even stronger than it was before. This is absolutely bonkers.
Nightblade desperately needs nerfs to reign it in in PVP not buffs. This is a unique, unnamed, 20% damage buff, 30% really because it can now be stacked with Major Breserk, on a class that is already overpowered to the point of being able to do uncounterable one-shots. Are we even playing the same game ZOS?! Revert this.
Not to mention you're continuing to buff it's access to Minor Expedition, to make it miles better than Sorc, which is patently unfair which still needs the skill to be cast to get Minor Expedition. Stop this, it's crazy.
Please try to read patchnote and then try to read it again and again until you understand what's goin on.
NB lost their 10% buff for incap and focus and got buff for only one skill - CW. If you are being killed by nb with CW the only problem is your skill issue not nb as class, sorry to say it but it's true. Try to build for pvp more than 20k hp and 10k armor.
Nah sorry CW spam has been the leading One Button playstyle for a hot minute - even if it's just for potato mashing - any One Button Potato Mashing deserves a nerf
Nightblade that spams CW is literally free alliance points.
But i got you. Everything that you don't like should be nerfed to the ground. It's not about balance at all.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭lostineternity wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »lostineternity wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »What the heck. We already did this and it is too strong, and this version is even stronger than it was before. This is absolutely bonkers.
Nightblade desperately needs nerfs to reign it in in PVP not buffs. This is a unique, unnamed, 20% damage buff, 30% really because it can now be stacked with Major Breserk, on a class that is already overpowered to the point of being able to do uncounterable one-shots. Are we even playing the same game ZOS?! Revert this.
Not to mention you're continuing to buff it's access to Minor Expedition, to make it miles better than Sorc, which is patently unfair which still needs the skill to be cast to get Minor Expedition. Stop this, it's crazy.
Please try to read patchnote and then try to read it again and again until you understand what's goin on.
NB lost their 10% buff for incap and focus and got buff for only one skill - CW. If you are being killed by nb with CW the only problem is your skill issue not nb as class, sorry to say it but it's true. Try to build for pvp more than 20k hp and 10k armor.
Nah sorry CW spam has been the leading One Button playstyle for a hot minute - even if it's just for potato mashing - any One Button Potato Mashing deserves a nerf
Nightblade that spams CW is literally free alliance points.
But i got you. Everything that you don't like should be nerfed to the ground. It's not about balance at all.
No you missed my point, it is about balance. Melee mNB was among the least played specs solidly from like 2018 to 2022, maybe more.
But in any given patch what's the meta for cleaning up noobs using only 1 button? Spamming jabs, spamming whip, spamming CW?
I used to be all for "buffs not nerfs" but that's what got us these 1 button spam metas isn't it.
Edited by Urzigurumash on February 12, 2024 8:47AMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast3 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭On PTS, Concealed Weapon has a better tooltip than Dizzying Swing, which is currently the hardest hitting single target spammable in the game, but without the 0.8s cast time.
Imagine getting hit by instant cast Dizzying Swing without a tooltip nerf. That’s NB next patch. 20k bow proc is absurd? Don’t need them when you can hit 11-12k Concealed next patch. Great buffs for sure!
Edited by StaticWave on February 12, 2024 9:19AMPlatform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc2 -
lostineternity✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »lostineternity wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »lostineternity wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »What the heck. We already did this and it is too strong, and this version is even stronger than it was before. This is absolutely bonkers.
Nightblade desperately needs nerfs to reign it in in PVP not buffs. This is a unique, unnamed, 20% damage buff, 30% really because it can now be stacked with Major Breserk, on a class that is already overpowered to the point of being able to do uncounterable one-shots. Are we even playing the same game ZOS?! Revert this.
Not to mention you're continuing to buff it's access to Minor Expedition, to make it miles better than Sorc, which is patently unfair which still needs the skill to be cast to get Minor Expedition. Stop this, it's crazy.
Please try to read patchnote and then try to read it again and again until you understand what's goin on.
NB lost their 10% buff for incap and focus and got buff for only one skill - CW. If you are being killed by nb with CW the only problem is your skill issue not nb as class, sorry to say it but it's true. Try to build for pvp more than 20k hp and 10k armor.
Nah sorry CW spam has been the leading One Button playstyle for a hot minute - even if it's just for potato mashing - any One Button Potato Mashing deserves a nerf
Nightblade that spams CW is literally free alliance points.
But i got you. Everything that you don't like should be nerfed to the ground. It's not about balance at all.
No you missed my point, it is about balance. Melee mNB was among the least played specs solidly from like 2018 to 2022, maybe more.
But in any given patch what's the meta for cleaning up noobs using only 1 button? Spamming jabs, spamming whip, spamming CW?
I used to be all for "buffs not nerfs" but that's what got us these 1 button spam metas isn't it.
This time i think i really got you. Sorry for being stupid. There are so many guys on the forum that "i don't like it nerf nerf nerf everything". My fault.
I aggre that buffing only one certain spell and make people play cookie clicker is the worst game design decision.
But actualy i don't how they can balance NB at current state. It's obviously NB strong asf in pvp and absolutely trash in pve (i'm talking about dps role).
Class needs a rework.
As example they can make shadow cloak a part of dps rotation adding a buff to damage after leaving the stealth for like 10-15 seconds (works only in PVE) instead adding over new sh*t to the Concealed Weapon toolpit making it clunky in usage (also management major exp buff) utility spell instead of core spammable of the class (it felt so bad for last few patches)
It would convinient in usage and pretty fit the class identity and lore like stealthy assassin. And they can easily tune overall damage just changing % and seconds without ruining overall rotation.
And this won't affect pvp side.0 -
Duke_Falcon✭✭✭Playing Sorc since the Hardened Ward changes and Nightblade is stilll easily the strongest class in the game.5 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭SandandStars wrote: »These threads with a bunch of nb mains are… endless.
My 2 cents: pvprs who are very skilled will have a clear advantage over other classes on nb.
Average or less experienced pvprs on nb will get killed as easily as any other class.
So there’s this discrepancy between a skilled nb who knows how to utilize the class’s considerable strengths, and those who don’t and then get defensive when ppl tell them their class is overtuned.
Ok, go ahead, argumentum ad nauseum…
How does this have anything to do with OP? Are you saying Nightblade is overtuned? or ppl are just bad?.
Please play a rangeblade. Tell me that it is best class.
Define rangeblade. Because if it's just nb that deals dmg from range than bowblade enters the chat.
Swallow soul Destro/Resto or Destro/Destro
Expecting magblade to be viable and effective ranged playstyle is like expecting magsorc to be viable and effective meele brawler.
Certain things simply are not working well within specific class kits. I can tell You for example to play stealth playstyle on anything that isn't nightblade. It's still kinda possible but wouldn't make much sense.
Yeah it doesn't work anymore because nightblade over a course of 6 years has went from ranged oriented to melee oriented.
1. They reduced the radius of soul tether/fear.
2. They changed dark cloak, not just once but twice.
3. They made the heal on merciless only affect melee.
4. They nerfed the damage on swallow soul, (because ppl were crying the heal was too strong)
5. They recently nerfed our ranged dot (Debilitate)
6. They gave us Major bezerk for slotting concealed, and then took it away as soon as rangeblade got halfway decent.
So everything that made Mage blade a Mage blade, has been effectively changed and nightblade seems like a Melee only type class. Its really not.
Additionally, Mage blade is also the preferred playstyle in PvE (or atleast it used to be). Now, you're wasting your time unless you are a healer.
Zos keep dropping gank sets, and let gankers run around freely, but can't touch up some other aspects of the class?
Anyone in there right min, can make a ranged brawler right now, and they wont be in their right mind very much longer after attempting to play it. Im so tired of being power crept because of gankers and tank set users, talking about how melee nightblade is so strong.
I can propose 100 ideas, of how to balance nightblade, but its not gonna happen. So bringing up how bad ranged brawler is, is something I will not stop doing. I'm defending the one thing I can enjoy in this game. For 6 long years, I have played this dead playstyle even as everyone else has abandoned it. The comment about Rangemagblade is like making melee sorc. You realize melee sorcs are extremely strong right now.
BTW this is pretty much every nightblades build right now.
2x Balorgh
5x rallying cry back bar
either SSC or DDF
5x offensive set (Shattered/Nightmothers/order's Wrath/ or a proc set.)
Concealed Weapon/Power extract/Killers blade/ Stealth/etc
Gank build pretty basic...New proc sets snipe into crushing shock.
I just wont be playing the class anymore, and slowly stop playing the game.Edited by FoJul on June 18, 2024 12:17AM3