Not happy with the new daedric prince

ZOS_Icy · January 21

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

FelisCatus · January 21

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

Bruh, spent 30 minutes typing a response only for you to delete it. Back and forth is a what a discussion is?

peacenote · January 21

I just finished the Necrom quest line and I thought it was a cool twist. So I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with it.

That said, I 100% came here originally because ESO was an MMO, not as an Elder Scrolls lore follower (though I enjoy it), so I may not take it seriously as some. As long as I'm entertained and they don't introduce something that conflicts in a jarring way which can't be explained, I'm good.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · January 21

Jaraal wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Anumaril wrote: »

Not a fan of ESO just introducing a whole new Daedric Prince out of the blue. That should either be left to the main series, or just not done at all.

Like others have said, I really hope that at the end of the storyline we banish/destroy her in some way so that the lore remains consistent in later titles.

ESO has contributed more lore than the main series in this millennium, I have no idea why players are so appalled by ESO lore. ESO is cannon and not a better or worse place to tell Elder Scrolls lore than a mainline game.

ESO is the only TES game where Bosmer are not stealthy, and Argonians are not immune to poison. And the ESO lore contradicts itself in many ways. There is still dialogue in the game about Argonians being immune and wood elves being stealthy, even after the changes. Not to mention there being dragons in the second era, which has never been canon until it became a convenient way to sell DLC. And even the new lore contradicts itself, when choices the player makes in the main story are rendered illegitimate, when sacrifices made to save the world are moot because the martyrs just pop back up without explanation as if nothing ever happened.

Then we have the whole geographical issues. Which includes things like how the Velothi Mountains are gone, therefore also House Redoran's capital Blacklight. That's not a small error.

ESO is canon and has added a lot of lore to TES, I don't think anyone is saying anything against that, but the quality and continuity, even within the game itself, has some big lacking spots here and there.

Do I mind a new prince being introduced? Not really, the notion that more princes and/or daedric lords exist has been a thing in lore for ages. Oblivion is endless. What I do mind is something that has bothered me a lot lately with lore and writing in ESO. How it's written, implemented and old lore is taken into consideration when doing so. Also the lack of creativity and bravery to go for the weird and fantastical. Every year it feels like the fantastical aspects gets taken away and gets replaced with something that feels "safer" and generic.
To me the issue isn't that Ithelia was created into the story, but how it was done, who she is, and how it all feels too similar to already existing things in lore.

Soarora · January 21

Syldras wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

The name of the elves, Sinestral.

Oh, that. Well, "sinistra" is Latin for "left-handed". I think it has always been used interchangeably? At least I think I read an article on the UESP about different kinds of mer a very, very long time ago and there they were already mentioned with both names. But I might remember wrong.

Sinistral is also already used as left-handed, such as snails whose shells curl the wrong way (making them reproductively incompatible with most snails). But hey, it does sound cooler than left-handed.

TaSheen wrote: »

Anumaril wrote: »

Not a fan of ESO just introducing a whole new Daedric Prince out of the blue. That should either be left to the main series, or just not done at all.

Like others have said, I really hope that at the end of the storyline we banish/destroy her in some way so that the lore remains consistent in later titles.

Rich stated that Bethesda assisted in her creation and also said he was grateful for that assistance.

This I think is pretty important. If ZOS had gone rogue and made a new Prince that’d be pretty questionable (one of the arguments between ESO being canon or not is that ZOS is not Bethesda) but Bethesda playing a part in Ithelia means they’ve given the OK… so can’t really argue with that.

Though on the topic of ZOS having “poor quality” lore…

Elsonso wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Anumaril wrote: »

Not a fan of ESO just introducing a whole new Daedric Prince out of the blue. That should either be left to the main series, or just not done at all.

Like others have said, I really hope that at the end of the storyline we banish/destroy her in some way so that the lore remains consistent in later titles.

ESO has contributed more lore than the main series in this millennium, I have no idea why players are so appalled by ESO lore. ESO is cannon and not a better or worse place to tell Elder Scrolls lore than a mainline game.

It's not that people complain about amount of lore, it's about the quality.

That seems to come up with every Elder Scrolls game, though. There is a lot of lore, not all of it is defined more than what is needed, and a lot of it is fluid, and it is not unchanging, even in the single player games.

This is also true. Every city in Skyrim is a mere fraction of their size in lore, for instance. Lore community’s never happy with any game, except Morrowind I guess.

ClowdyAllDay · January 21

I'm glad we have content that hasnt been seen or donw before even if perhaps the location has.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · January 21

Soarora wrote: »

This is also true. Every city in Skyrim is a mere fraction of their size in lore, for instance. Lore community’s never happy with any game, except Morrowind I guess.

Morrowind has its flaws too. Morningstar/January got left out of it.

Syldras · January 21

Soarora wrote: »

Sinistral is also already used as left-handed, such as snails whose shells curl the wrong way (making them reproductively incompatible with most snails). But hey, it does sound cooler than left-handed.

Interestingly, it's also etymologically connected to the word "sinister" as in "dark". "Left-hand path" and "Right-hand path" are a real-world historic religious concept (later also used in esotericism), btw, with the left hand associated with dark, harmful and negative aspects. I don't think it's a coincidence to name an enemy elven people like that.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Morrowind has its flaws too. Morningstar/January got left out of it.

That's not a lore mistake, the month hasn't suddenly disappeared from existence. It's a game bug. The calendar is wrong.

Elsonso · January 21

Syldras wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

The name of the elves, Sinestral.

Oh, that. Well, "sinistra" is Latin for "left-handed". I think it has always been used interchangeably? At least I think I read an article on the UESP about different kinds of mer a very, very long time ago and there they were already mentioned with both names. But I might remember wrong.

There is an article about them on UESP. A lot of the references come from ZOS. As part of High Isle, ZOS fleshed out a lot of the lore around them.

BlueRaven · January 21

(I am a bit sick so I am being a bit lazy.)

I am undecided on my feelings about the new prince, but I think I remember a bit of lore about how southern cyrodiil was dominated by a jungle, but in ‘Oblivion’ it was not there?

This story kind of nicely explains that discrepancy.

huskandhunger · January 22

She is wonderful and I cannot wait to see what Ithelia has planned muawhahaha 😈

Faulgor · January 22

Seraphayel wrote: »

Anumaril wrote: »

Not a fan of ESO just introducing a whole new Daedric Prince out of the blue. That should either be left to the main series, or just not done at all.

Like others have said, I really hope that at the end of the storyline we banish/destroy her in some way so that the lore remains consistent in later titles.

ESO has contributed more lore than the main series in this millennium, I have no idea why players are so appalled by ESO lore. ESO is cannon and not a better or worse place to tell Elder Scrolls lore than a mainline game.

Because ESO adds so much stuff every year,
- it often depicts or changes established lore in ways that people don't like / think is boring / wrong
- they demystify too much of the fringes of lore by pulling Daedric Princes and what not into every story

The "new" or rather elaborating lore (I think Ithelia could be considered the first truly new lore, but I guess that's up for debate) is more often than not quite welcome, it's when they reframe Alinor as Disney World, obliterate Blacklight from the world map or change the capital of Anequina where it stumbles
BGS can only "screw up" one province every decade in the eyes of the fans (no Cyrodiil jungles? no Skyrim snow whales? blasphemy!), ESO does it every year.

By the way, afaik the term Sinismer for Left-Handed Elves predates ESO. I think it was a community creation, but I'm not sure. Kirkbride is on record not liking it, lol.

OtarTheMad · January 22

Faulgor wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Anumaril wrote: »

Not a fan of ESO just introducing a whole new Daedric Prince out of the blue. That should either be left to the main series, or just not done at all.

Like others have said, I really hope that at the end of the storyline we banish/destroy her in some way so that the lore remains consistent in later titles.

ESO has contributed more lore than the main series in this millennium, I have no idea why players are so appalled by ESO lore. ESO is cannon and not a better or worse place to tell Elder Scrolls lore than a mainline game.

Because ESO adds so much stuff every year,
- it often depicts or changes established lore in ways that people don't like / think is boring / wrong
- they demystify too much of the fringes of lore by pulling Daedric Princes and what not into every story

The "new" or rather elaborating lore (I think Ithelia could be considered the first truly new lore, but I guess that's up for debate) is more often than not quite welcome, it's when they reframe Alinor as Disney World, obliterate Blacklight from the world map or change the capital of Anequina where it stumbles
BGS can only "screw up" one province every decade in the eyes of the fans (no Cyrodiil jungles? no Skyrim snow whales? blasphemy!), ESO does it every year.

By the way, afaik the term Sinismer for Left-Handed Elves predates ESO. I think it was a community creation, but I'm not sure. Kirkbride is on record not liking it, lol.

Well, in terms of the look of Alinor, there are different descriptions in lore of what it looked like. I am pretty sure this was done on purpose so that Bethesda (or whoever) could make it how they wish to. This is one quote I found from UESP, it comes from Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition:

Alinor
A forbidden city for nearly fifty years, Alinor is both capital of the Summerset Isles and the heart of the Aldmeri Dominion. Human traders were only allowed at its ports, and they described the city as "made from glass or insect wings." Less fantastic accounts come from the Imperial emissaries of the Reman Dynasty, which describe the city as straight and glimmering, "a hypnotic swirl of ramparts and impossibly high towers, designed to catch the light of the sun and break it to its component colors, which lies draped across its stones until you are thankful for nightfall."

Both descriptions are not exactly impressive, plus if you look at Alinor the roofs and all the windows on the high towers and all that you can see where the glass and insect wings came from.

As for the Lefthanded Elves, I have not found anything that predates ESO. In fact the only references on the UESP website that predate ESO call them Lefthanded Elves and those were written by MK. All other references come from ESO.

TaSheen · January 22

Uh. Wow. This is so far from the main thrust of the thread....

How 'bout y'all take this to the lore forum?

Faulgor · January 22

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Anumaril wrote: »

Not a fan of ESO just introducing a whole new Daedric Prince out of the blue. That should either be left to the main series, or just not done at all.

Like others have said, I really hope that at the end of the storyline we banish/destroy her in some way so that the lore remains consistent in later titles.

ESO has contributed more lore than the main series in this millennium, I have no idea why players are so appalled by ESO lore. ESO is cannon and not a better or worse place to tell Elder Scrolls lore than a mainline game.

Because ESO adds so much stuff every year,
- it often depicts or changes established lore in ways that people don't like / think is boring / wrong
- they demystify too much of the fringes of lore by pulling Daedric Princes and what not into every story

The "new" or rather elaborating lore (I think Ithelia could be considered the first truly new lore, but I guess that's up for debate) is more often than not quite welcome, it's when they reframe Alinor as Disney World, obliterate Blacklight from the world map or change the capital of Anequina where it stumbles
BGS can only "screw up" one province every decade in the eyes of the fans (no Cyrodiil jungles? no Skyrim snow whales? blasphemy!), ESO does it every year.

By the way, afaik the term Sinismer for Left-Handed Elves predates ESO. I think it was a community creation, but I'm not sure. Kirkbride is on record not liking it, lol.

Well, in terms of the look of Alinor, there are different descriptions in lore of what it looked like. I am pretty sure this was done on purpose so that Bethesda (or whoever) could make it how they wish to. This is one quote I found from UESP, it comes from Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition:

Alinor
A forbidden city for nearly fifty years, Alinor is both capital of the Summerset Isles and the heart of the Aldmeri Dominion. Human traders were only allowed at its ports, and they described the city as "made from glass or insect wings." Less fantastic accounts come from the Imperial emissaries of the Reman Dynasty, which describe the city as straight and glimmering, "a hypnotic swirl of ramparts and impossibly high towers, designed to catch the light of the sun and break it to its component colors, which lies draped across its stones until you are thankful for nightfall."

Both descriptions are not exactly impressive, plus if you look at Alinor the roofs and all the windows on the high towers and all that you can see where the glass and insect wings came from.

As for the Lefthanded Elves, I have not found anything that predates ESO. In fact the only references on the UESP website that predate ESO call them Lefthanded Elves and those were written by MK. All other references come from ESO.

You can reason away all the cool stuff in the lore like this. Do you guys remember the uproar over the "transcription error" that tried to explain away the Cyrodiil jungles? Yeah, people aren't persuaded by that. When you always go for the more mundane and boring interpretation of things, it becomes a pattern that is worth criticizing.

As for the LHE, it's increasingly harder to find communal sources from over 10 years ago. The first hit I find for Sinismer is an image board thread in December of 2013, whereas the uesp.net page sources the first mention of Sinistral Elves by ZOS in a loremaster archive from August of 2014. The earliest in-game references only arrive with the antiquity system as far as I can tell. Uesp.net at least doesn't cite anything earlier.
I think it's most likely that Schick read the term in a community discussion and used a variant in a loremaster archive article. That's certainly not unheard of for TES, and it matches my recollection. Note that ESO never uses Sinismer, only Sinistral Mer.

Edit: I was just reading Systres History: Volume 2 from ESO's High Isle chapter, which states a theory by an Orc scholar that the Left-Handed Elves didn't exist at all. This is almost certainly taken from another community discussion, namely this one (interestingly, a user with an Orcish name):
https://reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1xb39r/two_theories_on_the_left_handed_elves/

OtarTheMad · January 22

Faulgor wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Anumaril wrote: »

Not a fan of ESO just introducing a whole new Daedric Prince out of the blue. That should either be left to the main series, or just not done at all.

Like others have said, I really hope that at the end of the storyline we banish/destroy her in some way so that the lore remains consistent in later titles.

ESO has contributed more lore than the main series in this millennium, I have no idea why players are so appalled by ESO lore. ESO is cannon and not a better or worse place to tell Elder Scrolls lore than a mainline game.

Because ESO adds so much stuff every year,
- it often depicts or changes established lore in ways that people don't like / think is boring / wrong
- they demystify too much of the fringes of lore by pulling Daedric Princes and what not into every story

The "new" or rather elaborating lore (I think Ithelia could be considered the first truly new lore, but I guess that's up for debate) is more often than not quite welcome, it's when they reframe Alinor as Disney World, obliterate Blacklight from the world map or change the capital of Anequina where it stumbles
BGS can only "screw up" one province every decade in the eyes of the fans (no Cyrodiil jungles? no Skyrim snow whales? blasphemy!), ESO does it every year.

By the way, afaik the term Sinismer for Left-Handed Elves predates ESO. I think it was a community creation, but I'm not sure. Kirkbride is on record not liking it, lol.

Well, in terms of the look of Alinor, there are different descriptions in lore of what it looked like. I am pretty sure this was done on purpose so that Bethesda (or whoever) could make it how they wish to. This is one quote I found from UESP, it comes from Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition:

Alinor
A forbidden city for nearly fifty years, Alinor is both capital of the Summerset Isles and the heart of the Aldmeri Dominion. Human traders were only allowed at its ports, and they described the city as "made from glass or insect wings." Less fantastic accounts come from the Imperial emissaries of the Reman Dynasty, which describe the city as straight and glimmering, "a hypnotic swirl of ramparts and impossibly high towers, designed to catch the light of the sun and break it to its component colors, which lies draped across its stones until you are thankful for nightfall."

Both descriptions are not exactly impressive, plus if you look at Alinor the roofs and all the windows on the high towers and all that you can see where the glass and insect wings came from.

As for the Lefthanded Elves, I have not found anything that predates ESO. In fact the only references on the UESP website that predate ESO call them Lefthanded Elves and those were written by MK. All other references come from ESO.

You can reason away all the cool stuff in the lore like this. Do you guys remember the uproar over the "transcription error" that tried to explain away the Cyrodiil jungles? Yeah, people aren't persuaded by that. When you always go for the more mundane and boring interpretation of things, it becomes a pattern that is worth criticizing.

As for the LHE, it's increasingly harder to find communal sources from over 10 years ago. The first hit I find for Sinismer is an image board thread in December of 2013, whereas the uesp.net page sources the first mention of Sinistral Elves by ZOS in a loremaster archive from August of 2014. The earliest in-game references only arrive with the antiquity system as far as I can tell. Uesp.net at least doesn't cite anything earlier.
I think it's most likely that Schick read the term in a community discussion and used a variant in a loremaster archive article. That's certainly not unheard of for TES, and it matches my recollection. Note that ESO never uses Sinismer, only Sinistral Mer.

Edit: I was just reading Systres History: Volume 2 from ESO's High Isle chapter, which states a theory by an Orc scholar that the Left-Handed Elves didn't exist at all. This is almost certainly taken from another community discussion, namely this one (interestingly, a user with an Orcish name):
https://reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1xb39r/two_theories_on_the_left_handed_elves/

I don’t know where you are getting Sinismer from but it does not change that ESO and ZOS added the majority of the lore to that race. ZOS added some lore to a lot of different races and things. Some good, some weird. Whatever.

The lore changes with each game, I didn’t have a huge issue with Cyrodiil changing honestly. Just like I don’t have much issue with the addition of Ithelia. I think it’s great as long as Bethesda is fine with it which seems they were.

I’m excited to see where Ithelia story goes and what lore is expanded on next.

Faulgor · January 22

I get Sinismer from personal experience, I guess. I was there when people started using the term, but I couldn't put it exactly in relation to ESO. Turns out 10 years is quite a long time, after all.

That I suspect a bunch of the mentioned Lefthanded Elf lore has its origin in the lore community shouldn't be misunderstood as a criticism of ZOS or ESO, by the way - quite the opposite. Especially when cool and more outlandish interpretations give inspiration for the devs, I am happy. The collaborative aspect is one of the most enjoyable parts of TES lore, whether that's devs contributing to community discussions or fan theories finding their way into official releases, the ambiguity of authorship is to be cherished. It somehow makes Tamriel feel more like a real place that exists independently of Bethesda or anyone else.

I'll let the discussion get back on track. Just closing with a quote from MK the Elk himself:

Tamriel with more things: more fun.

Syldras · January 22

Faulgor wrote: »

You can reason away all the cool stuff in the lore like this. Do you guys remember the uproar over the "transcription error" that tried to explain away the Cyrodiil jungles? Yeah, people aren't persuaded by that. When you always go for the more mundane and boring interpretation of things, it becomes a pattern that is worth criticizing.

It might sometimes be boring when they go for the easiest design (although with Alinor, I can understand that it, most likely, at least partially had technical reasons), yes. A waste of possibilities, a lack of creativity. In regard of this thread's actual topic: That's also the case with Ithelia's design, in my opinion. Who dislikes it, has the right to adress this.

Still, we can't really call it being untrue to lore or even a mistake, as long as there is no "proof" of the event, as in: The player character has seen a conflicting event themselves. Everything npcs tell us or written in lorebook is not proven.

That said: Criticism is fine. And while I can live with Alinor, I still think Ithelia looks boring.

barbe.amauryb16_ESO · January 29

Seraphayel wrote: »

Anumaril wrote: »

Not a fan of ESO just introducing a whole new Daedric Prince out of the blue. That should either be left to the main series, or just not done at all.

Like others have said, I really hope that at the end of the storyline we banish/destroy her in some way so that the lore remains consistent in later titles.

ESO has contributed more lore than the main series in this millennium, I have no idea why players are so appalled by ESO lore. ESO is cannon and not a better or worse place to tell Elder Scrolls lore than a mainline game.

Cannon can be ***. Let's hope Bethesda just cut this and tell ZO to stick to what they are capable of. Creating good lore is not one of it. Their version of apocrypha just looks like a grey Morrowind with fossils...
They mistook quality with quantity and now we have gwenevere and the magical jewels.

TaSheen · January 29

Bethesda helped with Ithelia's creation - Rich Lambert stated that in the live stream, and thanked Bethesda for assisting.

Elsonso · January 29

TaSheen wrote: »

Bethesda helped with Ithelia's creation - Rich Lambert stated that in the live stream, and thanked Bethesda for assisting.

They did, and it is clear that BGS and ZOS are closely working together on lore. It would not surprise me if ZOS added lore that will appear in TES 6. They might even add lore that is part of the TES 6 main story, allowing players of both games to experience the lore from different perspectives.

Syldras · January 29

barbe.amauryb16_ESO wrote: »

[Their version of apocrypha just looks like a grey Morrowind with fossils...

While I dislike Ithelia's design (and some of the storywriting, but that's a different topic), I actually think they did a good job with Apocrypha. The "primordial ocean" theme with different types of huge fossils and extinct marine plants (mixed with literature-related things like huge structures made from piles of old books, flowing ink instead of water, etc) works really well as a symbol of ancient and forgotten knowledge. Also, Hermaeus Mora was already known as the "Master of the Tides of Fate" in TES 5 Skyrim - the link to oceans and tidal flats is nothing ESO invented.

FelisCatus · February 4

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Anumaril wrote: »

Not a fan of ESO just introducing a whole new Daedric Prince out of the blue. That should either be left to the main series, or just not done at all.

Like others have said, I really hope that at the end of the storyline we banish/destroy her in some way so that the lore remains consistent in later titles.

ESO has contributed more lore than the main series in this millennium, I have no idea why players are so appalled by ESO lore. ESO is cannon and not a better or worse place to tell Elder Scrolls lore than a mainline game.

ESO is the only TES game where Bosmer are not stealthy, and Argonians are not immune to poison. And the ESO lore contradicts itself in many ways. There is still dialogue in the game about Argonians being immune and wood elves being stealthy, even after the changes. Not to mention there being dragons in the second era, which has never been canon until it became a convenient way to sell DLC. And even the new lore contradicts itself, when choices the player makes in the main story are rendered illegitimate, when sacrifices made to save the world are moot because the martyrs just pop back up without explanation as if nothing ever happened.

Then we have the whole geographical issues. Which includes things like how the Velothi Mountains are gone, therefore also House Redoran's capital Blacklight. That's not a small error.

ESO is canon and has added a lot of lore to TES, I don't think anyone is saying anything against that, but the quality and continuity, even within the game itself, has some big lacking spots here and there.

Do I mind a new prince being introduced? Not really, the notion that more princes and/or daedric lords exist has been a thing in lore for ages. Oblivion is endless. What I do mind is something that has bothered me a lot lately with lore and writing in ESO. How it's written, implemented and old lore is taken into consideration when doing so. Also the lack of creativity and bravery to go for the weird and fantastical. Every year it feels like the fantastical aspects gets taken away and gets replaced with something that feels "safer" and generic.
To me the issue isn't that Ithelia was created into the story, but how it was done, who she is, and how it all feels too similar to already existing things in lore.

It's always just "a cult is trying to take over or end the world using supernatural means to take over for themselves or for a daedric prince" Pretty much every zone has a cult it's really tiring, uninspired, unoriginal and lazy. Very jarring too that there are SO many cults. Especially when you only see like maybe 15-20 different NPCs per town and some towns only consist of 20 buildings or less. Like where do they get all these people from?

Syldras · February 4

FelisCatus wrote: »

It's always just "a cult is trying to take over or end the world using supernatural means to take over for themselves or for a daedric prince"

Actually, this is what most TES games are about. Okay, Daggerfall and Skyrim were a bit different, but other than that, there's always some cult (daedra-related or not) trying to seize power.

TES1 Arena: Jagar Tharn, supported by Mehrunes Dagon cultists, kidnaps the emperor and imprisons him in a daedric realm, to reign in his stead.
TES 3 Morrowind: Dagoth Ur/Sixth House.
TES 4 Oblivion: Mythic Dawn/Mankar Camoran/Mehrunes Dagon.

It just looks to weird in ESO because there's new content every year - and everything is supposed to take place at the same time.

That said, I have nothing against different and more creative stories, I'm just saying that the old "powerhungry and/or insane cult leader wants to rule the world" theme is nothing new for TES.

Elsonso · February 4

FelisCatus wrote: »

It's always just "a cult is trying to take over or end the world using supernatural means to take over for themselves or for a daedric prince" Pretty much every zone has a cult it's really tiring, uninspired, unoriginal and lazy. Very jarring too that there are SO many cults. Especially when you only see like maybe 15-20 different NPCs per town and some towns only consist of 20 buildings or less. Like where do they get all these people from?

The "cult" is just a (bad) guy with a fan club.

They are a staple of Elder Scrolls, even if they aren't obviously "a cult" as presented in the game. Can't sneeze in Tamriel without hitting some member of a cult, following, group, faction, etc. They are very group oriented.

Also, the games, at least as far back as TES 3, have not been a full scale model of Tamriel. This is not different from other games.

Syldras wrote: »

I actually think they did a good job with Apocrypha. The "primordial ocean" theme with different types of huge fossils and extinct marine plants (mixed with literature-related things like huge structures made from piles of old books, flowing ink instead of water, etc) works really well as a symbol of ancient and forgotten knowledge. Also, Hermaeus Mora was already known as the "Master of the Tides of Fate" in TES 5 Skyrim - the link to oceans and tidal flats is nothing ESO invented.

Personally, I think that Apocrypha is the best daedric realm they have created. While it was the standard ESO formula, a set number of game features, all placed on some island, it was a better representation than Deadlands zone.

spartaxoxo · February 4

Honestly, even in Skyrim there was plenty of cultists.

ZOS_Icy · February 4

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the Lore section, as it is better suited there.

Thank you for your understanding.

FelisCatus · February 4

Elsonso wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

It's always just "a cult is trying to take over or end the world using supernatural means to take over for themselves or for a daedric prince" Pretty much every zone has a cult it's really tiring, uninspired, unoriginal and lazy. Very jarring too that there are SO many cults. Especially when you only see like maybe 15-20 different NPCs per town and some towns only consist of 20 buildings or less. Like where do they get all these people from?

The "cult" is just a (bad) guy with a fan club. They are a staple of Elder Scrolls, even if they aren't obviously "a cult" as presented in the game. Can't sneeze in Tamriel without hitting some member of a cult, following, group, faction, etc. They are very group oriented.

Also, the games, at least as far back as TES 3, have not been a full scale model of Tamriel. This is not different from other games.

Syldras wrote: »

I actually think they did a good job with Apocrypha. The "primordial ocean" theme with different types of huge fossils and extinct marine plants (mixed with literature-related things like huge structures made from piles of old books, flowing ink instead of water, etc) works really well as a symbol of ancient and forgotten knowledge. Also, Hermaeus Mora was already known as the "Master of the Tides of Fate" in TES 5 Skyrim - the link to oceans and tidal flats is nothing ESO invented.

Personally, I think that Apocrypha is the best daedric realm they have created. While it was the standard ESO formula, a set number of game features, all placed on some island, it was a better representation than Deadlands zone.

Yeah but it's kinda strange having SO many cults. It almost feels like 1 in 3 people are in a cult in ESO.

kaushad · February 5

Syldras wrote: »

Actually, this is what most TES games are about. Okay, Daggerfall and Skyrim were a bit different, but other than that, there's always some cult (daedra-related or not) trying to seize power.

TES1 Arena: Jagar Tharn, supported by Mehrunes Dagon cultists, kidnaps the emperor and imprisons him in a daedric realm, to reign in his stead.
TES 3 Morrowind: Dagoth Ur/Sixth House.
TES 4 Oblivion: Mythic Dawn/Mankar Camoran/Mehrunes Dagon.

It just looks to weird in ESO because there's new content every year - and everything is supposed to take place at the same time.

That said, I have nothing against different and more creative stories, I'm just saying that the old "powerhungry and/or insane cult leader wants to rule the world" theme is nothing new for TES.

That’s a good observation, but I’d argue that other TES games have less focus on their main quest series, because they have other series of quests, mostly in the factions. ESO has some of this in the Fighters and Mages Guild, the Balmora and Sadrith Mora series and the Psijic Order, but those quest lines have fallen away from later DLC.

A lot of my Morrowind games had little to do with the Sixth House Cult. Those player characters were too busy looking for Dwemer texts for the Mages Guild, dealing with Camonna Tong (one way or another), climbing the native aristocracy, building Raven Rock etc. And other player characters of mine find places in Skyrim besides being Dragonborn.

Elsonso · February 5

kaushad wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Actually, this is what most TES games are about. Okay, Daggerfall and Skyrim were a bit different, but other than that, there's always some cult (daedra-related or not) trying to seize power.

TES1 Arena: Jagar Tharn, supported by Mehrunes Dagon cultists, kidnaps the emperor and imprisons him in a daedric realm, to reign in his stead.
TES 3 Morrowind: Dagoth Ur/Sixth House.
TES 4 Oblivion: Mythic Dawn/Mankar Camoran/Mehrunes Dagon.

It just looks to weird in ESO because there's new content every year - and everything is supposed to take place at the same time.

That said, I have nothing against different and more creative stories, I'm just saying that the old "powerhungry and/or insane cult leader wants to rule the world" theme is nothing new for TES.

That’s a good observation, but I’d argue that other TES games have less focus on their main quest series, because they have other series of quests, mostly in the factions. ESO has some of this in the Fighters and Mages Guild, the Balmora and Sadrith Mora series and the Psijic Order, but those quest lines have fallen away from later DLC.

A lot of my Morrowind games had little to do with the Sixth House Cult. Those player characters were too busy looking for Dwemer texts for the Mages Guild, dealing with Camonna Tong (one way or another), climbing the native aristocracy, building Raven Rock etc. And other player characters of mine find places in Skyrim besides being Dragonborn.

Depending on what you like to do, you could probably play ESO for a very long time without touching any main quest.