Balance changes to Arcanist class

SandandStars · January 11

imo, the only aspects of arc that are overperforming in pvp are spams of colorless pool that are unbreakable and the ubertanky undeath arcs crutching on marselok mdw vatesh. but honestly, skilled players on nb & dk are significantly more powerful

Dubhliam · January 11

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

Uvi_AUT · January 11

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

No idea what the numbers are. But it looks like almost all are pretty close together.

OtarTheMad · January 11

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

I have no idea what any of this means but I will give it a blind shot and make myself look VERY stupid lol. I went to ESO Logs and got information.

Parses on Arcanist are high, I assume that means the number of players damaging enemies, so this shows that Arcanist is very high.

But if you move over to score, which I assume is efficiency, Arcanist doesn't look so hot. Basing on Score for dps only. Necro stam, Templar stam and mag, DK stam, Sorc stam and Necro mag are all better than Arcanist. Plus, Mag Arcanist is pretty much on the bottom. So this tells me that while more people are using Arcanist, it doesn't quite make sense because other classes get higher scores. So if they want better scores then they should use other classes other than Arcanist. This is just Sanity's Edge too.

ESO Logs only really show the people who have opted-in right? So anyone who said no does not show up or do they show up as anonymous?

CameraBeardThePirate · January 11

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

I have no idea what any of this means but I will give it a blind shot and make myself look VERY stupid lol. I went to ESO Logs and got information.

Parses on Arcanist are high, I assume that means the number of players damaging enemies, so this shows that Arcanist is very high.

But if you move over to score, which I assume is efficiency, Arcanist doesn't look so hot. Basing on Score for dps only. Necro stam, Templar stam and mag, DK stam, Sorc stam and Necro mag are all better than Arcanist. Plus, Mag Arcanist is pretty much on the bottom. So this tells me that while more people are using Arcanist, it doesn't quite make sense because other classes get higher scores. So if they want better scores then they should use other classes other than Arcanist. This is just Sanity's Edge too.

ESO Logs only really show the people who have opted-in right? So anyone who said no does not show up or do they show up as anonymous?

ESO logs will still show player information that's opted out - it'll just be anonymous

OtarTheMad · January 11

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

I have no idea what any of this means but I will give it a blind shot and make myself look VERY stupid lol. I went to ESO Logs and got information.

Parses on Arcanist are high, I assume that means the number of players damaging enemies, so this shows that Arcanist is very high.

But if you move over to score, which I assume is efficiency, Arcanist doesn't look so hot. Basing on Score for dps only. Necro stam, Templar stam and mag, DK stam, Sorc stam and Necro mag are all better than Arcanist. Plus, Mag Arcanist is pretty much on the bottom. So this tells me that while more people are using Arcanist, it doesn't quite make sense because other classes get higher scores. So if they want better scores then they should use other classes other than Arcanist. This is just Sanity's Edge too.

ESO Logs only really show the people who have opted-in right? So anyone who said no does not show up or do they show up as anonymous?

ESO logs will still show player information that's opted out - it'll just be anonymous

Thanks. Everywhere I checked had names next to info but now I know.

Dubhliam · January 12

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

, Mag Arcanist is pretty much on the bottom. So this tells me that while more people are using Arcanist, it doesn't quite make sense because other classes get higher scores. So if they want better scores then they should use other classes other than Arcanist. This is just Sanity's Edge too.

Mag Arcanist is on the bottom because there is absolutely no difference in skills from stam and mag. The only diff is enchanting max mag and attributes.
Since that changes Fatecarver to using mag resource, this screwes the sustain up massively, nobody in their righr mind would choose to pump mag instead of stam.

Any Arcanist worth their salt knows that, which is reflective in the numbers above.
6210:4

An the 'score' part of the picture is basically a median score between all the recorded parses.
Since there are 5× more parses than any other class, that just shows how easy it is for all those people to bring great damage numbers with Arcanist.

Also, Arcant healer is basically as popular as Warden (the best healer since Morrowind) while Arcanist tank is more popular than any other tank, including Dragonknight.

So when you say, not the best, I have no clue where you get that impression from.

Dubhliam · January 12

Also, one more thing about ESO logs data:

The score and max score parts of the statistics work not on individual character performance, but on group performance (score) you get once you finish a trial.

That is the reason I sorted the chart by popularity instead of score, because a single Necro in a group of 7 other Arcanist DDs will share the max score with them, althought that same Necro would never be able to get that score in a group with zero Arcanist.

This is, however, indicative of the power level of Arcanist.
Since the majority of players who use ESOlogs are min maxers and score pushers, the statistics will reflect on what the current meta is.
And as we all know, the meta is formed around only the best abilities, classes and tactics.

How I wish there was a comparison for damage done among classes, because I know that Arcanist damage would be through the roof.

OtarTheMad · January 12

Dubhliam wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

, Mag Arcanist is pretty much on the bottom. So this tells me that while more people are using Arcanist, it doesn't quite make sense because other classes get higher scores. So if they want better scores then they should use other classes other than Arcanist. This is just Sanity's Edge too.

Mag Arcanist is on the bottom because there is absolutely no difference in skills from stam and mag. The only diff is enchanting max mag and attributes.
Since that changes Fatecarver to using mag resource, this screwes the sustain up massively, nobody in their righr mind would choose to pump mag instead of stam.

Any Arcanist worth their salt knows that, which is reflective in the numbers above.
6210:4

An the 'score' part of the picture is basically a median score between all the recorded parses.
Since there are 5× more parses than any other class, that just shows how easy it is for all those people to bring great damage numbers with Arcanist.

Also, Arcant healer is basically as popular as Warden (the best healer since Morrowind) while Arcanist tank is more popular than any other tank, including Dragonknight.

So when you say, not the best, I have no clue where you get that impression from.

Thanks for the information.

So basically Arcanist is popular but it does not say how strong it is for dps. I still don’t see a huge issue really but I don’t do trials.

I still don’t think you should nerf a class based on just one part of the game. Like I mentioned before, I think the leaderboards are a self nerfing system, once a new shiny comes out they will move to that. Whether the new shiny is a buffed class or a skill line I guess we will find out.

The cycle has been that a class shows up on top of the leaderboards and people freak out, that class is nerfed but a new shiny comes out and players move on anyway. What is left is a class that is now sub-par for everyone else who thought the class worked just fine. It’s not a good cycle because basically it’s “design all the classes and skills based on trials and leaderboard chasers and the rest of the player base will have to deal with it.”

I love PvP but that doesn’t mean I would want any classes changed/nerfed based on the leaderboards in Grey Host. (Or whatever your main PvP campaign is)

OtarTheMad · January 12

I do believe, for what it’s worth, that the writing is on the wall. The cycle will continue and Arcanist and its delicate balance will be nerfed and the meta/leaderboard/HM players will move on but they would have anyway. That’s why I call it a self-nerfing system. Whether Arcanist is nerfed or not, they will move on.

Prediction: A month or so after the 2024 chapter drops you’ll probably see new threads like “nerf X thing, it’s all over leaderboards” and “what happened to Arcanist, needs rework.”

Players who think “okay, this will open things up because players will now have to do a more complex rotation which is statistically better” will be shocked when players who loved Arcanist just go back to what they were using before and players doing dungeons and trials probably decreases. There could also be cases where people leave the game.

Not everyone follows meta, or score pushes or min maxes. That’s just one playstyle out of many in this game.

MudcrabAttack · January 13

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

It’s just the same thing as Oakensoul several months ago, a majority using the popular build that feels easier to manage.

Meanwhile over two thousand mag/stam Templars are banging out higher average scores in VSE HM, less average dps but top AOE damage isn’t everything

The speed running players will always clear with the fastest times no matter what meta they’re using from one patch to the next, and among the highest avg scores you always see the obligatory stamsorc (for minor prophecy), dragonknight (Zen, minor brutality, Alkosh), Necro (vulnerability and catalyst)

Poor nightblade and warden aren’t needed or anywhere close to competing. Sorc already gives minor crit buff and Arcanist can easily slap brittle on something for 20 whole seconds

merpins · January 14

PVP Perspective: Arcanist is kind of a joke. It's far too easy to avoid basically everything it does as a damage dealer, and isn't exactly a powerhouse. It can do work in some situations, but if you know how to deal with an arcanist, it won't be a threat to you outside niche situations and super large scale combat or ball groups (which are a problem regardless of arcaist).

PVE Perspective: Arcanist isn't that strong. If you take away Fatecarver, it's a mediocre class with 3 or 4 damage dealing abilities. Why does it show up so often in leader boards? Because it's a the newest class, one that is pretty easy to learn and to do top end damage on, and many of the old leader board toppers quit the game around when arcanist came out for other reasons thus there isn't much competition. Other classes require way more dedication to get good at them, and the people that were best at them just aren't playing eso right now. Arcanist is a great support class that has already seen support nerfs, and could use more support nerfs, but for damage dealing, nerfs that aren't super thoughtful will just nuke a maybe slightly over-performing class. Flail is super overloaded with abilities. It's super good. There's no reason to run Runeblades. My suggestion for PVE, which would also help PVP to some extent is pretty simple: Just put all the bonuses that flail gets on Runeblades instead. The bonus damage and the execute, put it on runeblades (and increase its damage a bit), then put something else on flail that makes it still useful, like a minor dot or something. It shouldn't be the skill used for building crux when it's also an AOE, the single target ability should be the one that's better for this, otherwise the cleave potential of the class is too high.

ClowdyAllDay · January 14

nerf the green swirlie animation

Galeriano · January 14

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

It’s just the same thing as Oakensoul several months ago, a majority using the popular build that feels easier to manage.

Meanwhile over two thousand mag/stam Templars are banging out higher average scores in VSE HM, less average dps but top AOE damage isn’t everything

The speed running players will always clear with the fastest times no matter what meta they’re using from one patch to the next, and among the highest avg scores you always see the obligatory stamsorc (for minor prophecy), dragonknight (Zen, minor brutality, Alkosh), Necro (vulnerability and catalyst)

Poor nightblade and warden aren’t needed or anywhere close to competing. Sorc already gives minor crit buff and Arcanist can easily slap brittle on something for 20 whole seconds

Arcanist is both easier to manage and the strongest DPS at the same time.

These templars are literally being carried by arcanists. Every templar who got score that increased class's average was a member of a team dominated by arcanists and his good score just improved the average score for overall state of the class. It's pretty normal that the best class will not be getting the highest average score in that particular table. Main reason is overwhelming amount of people playing the best class which makes it harder to come up with highest average at the end. DK for example which was a meta before arcanist came in was also not getting top average score. It's basically a hard rule that the strongest DD class will never be top DD in this particular table.

Just by looking at average scores we can also praise DK healers for being the best trial setup which we all know isn't the case.

When it comes to damage arcanist is just dominating, leaving everyone behind in both trash and boss fights. Here are the results of damage done from the same data table posted by You

merpins · January 14

Galeriano wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

It’s just the same thing as Oakensoul several months ago, a majority using the popular build that feels easier to manage.

Meanwhile over two thousand mag/stam Templars are banging out higher average scores in VSE HM, less average dps but top AOE damage isn’t everything

The speed running players will always clear with the fastest times no matter what meta they’re using from one patch to the next, and among the highest avg scores you always see the obligatory stamsorc (for minor prophecy), dragonknight (Zen, minor brutality, Alkosh), Necro (vulnerability and catalyst)

Poor nightblade and warden aren’t needed or anywhere close to competing. Sorc already gives minor crit buff and Arcanist can easily slap brittle on something for 20 whole seconds

Arcanist is both easier to manage and the strongest DPS at the same time.

These templars are literally being carried by arcanists. Every templar who got score that increased class's average was a member of a team dominated by arcanists and his good score just improved the average score for overall state of the class. It's pretty normal that the best class will not be getting the highest average score in that particular table. Main reason is overwhelming amount of people playing the best class which makes it harder to come up with highest average at the end. DK for example which was a meta before arcanist came in was also not getting top average score. It's basically a hard rule that the strongest DD class will never be top DD in this particular table.

Just by looking at average scores we can also praise DK healers for being the best trial setup which we all know isn't the case.

When it comes to damage arcanist is just dominating, leaving everyone behind in both trash and boss fights. Here are the results of damage done from the same data table posted by You

Arcanist is being played, on average, 5 times more than any other class right now. They have 5 times the amount of eyes on it, perfecting rotations and playing it. Stands to reason, it'll be top of leader boards because it's easier to learn, easier to play, and more people are taking the time to play it.

If a skill needs a nerf, it's Flail. But other than that, the class' DPS is fine, and messing with it will just nuke the class. As you said, a thoughtless nerf will just kill the class, and everyone will go back to other standards and it'll just be a different class topping the charts.

SandandStars · January 14

Imo, Fatecarver needs to be adjusted to balance PvE better. Too much damage too easy. Mindless gameplay.

For PvP, All they need to do is fix colorless pool so that you can actually break free from it.

If they did this, almost no one would play arcanist in PvP except for the disciplined players who actually want to learn how to aim/use Fatecarver effectively in PvP conditions and enjoy the challenge of developing a new skill. Not too many 😁

Almost every arc I see in PVP these days is spamming colorless pool and using the tankiest undeath builds imaginable. And yet they somehow still manage to die.

Galeriano · January 14

merpins wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

It’s just the same thing as Oakensoul several months ago, a majority using the popular build that feels easier to manage.

Meanwhile over two thousand mag/stam Templars are banging out higher average scores in VSE HM, less average dps but top AOE damage isn’t everything

The speed running players will always clear with the fastest times no matter what meta they’re using from one patch to the next, and among the highest avg scores you always see the obligatory stamsorc (for minor prophecy), dragonknight (Zen, minor brutality, Alkosh), Necro (vulnerability and catalyst)

Poor nightblade and warden aren’t needed or anywhere close to competing. Sorc already gives minor crit buff and Arcanist can easily slap brittle on something for 20 whole seconds

Arcanist is both easier to manage and the strongest DPS at the same time.

These templars are literally being carried by arcanists. Every templar who got score that increased class's average was a member of a team dominated by arcanists and his good score just improved the average score for overall state of the class. It's pretty normal that the best class will not be getting the highest average score in that particular table. Main reason is overwhelming amount of people playing the best class which makes it harder to come up with highest average at the end. DK for example which was a meta before arcanist came in was also not getting top average score. It's basically a hard rule that the strongest DD class will never be top DD in this particular table.

Just by looking at average scores we can also praise DK healers for being the best trial setup which we all know isn't the case.

When it comes to damage arcanist is just dominating, leaving everyone behind in both trash and boss fights. Here are the results of damage done from the same data table posted by You

Arcanist is being played, on average, 5 times more than any other class right now. They have 5 times the amount of eyes on it, perfecting rotations and playing it. Stands to reason, it'll be top of leader boards because it's easier to learn, easier to play, and more people are taking the time to play it.

If a skill needs a nerf, it's Flail. But other than that, the class' DPS is fine, and messing with it will just nuke the class. As you said, a thoughtless nerf will just kill the class, and everyone will go back to other standards and it'll just be a different class topping the charts.

Arcanist is not top in the leaderboards because "it's easier to learn, easier to play, and more people are taking the time to play it". For top of the leaderboards these factors are not important. People in that bracket can master rotation of any class and they propably did because they were playing before arcanist was released. In that particular bracket the main thing that puts certain character at the top is particular class being the strongest possible choice.

Arcanist is played on average 5 times more than other because it's the strongest option and strongest options are the most popular ones in vet HMs which tables in this thread are coming from. You will always find that in certain update one class had overwhelming amount of people playing it in HMs vs other classes. Before arcanist it was a DK. If You want to look for what's the easiest to manage You usually look at veteran and normal modes. For example when DK was a meta in HMs before arcanist came in, one bar HA sorc was still very popular in veteran modes because it was easier to play. Currently however arcanist dominates in normals, veterans and HMs because it's both the easiest and the strongest class to play.

Nerf to flail really wouldn't change much unless ZoS would nerf flail to the point of being useless which is not the best approach. Arcanist currently is overloaded if few areas crucial in producing DPS. He have the best offensive passives, high hitting abilities filled with strong secondary effects, the best sustain and almost his whole single target kit is an AoE kit at the same time making it not only the strongest DDs atm but in entire ESO's history.

OtarTheMad · January 14

SandandStars wrote: »

Imo, Fatecarver needs to be adjusted to balance PvE better. Too much damage too easy. Mindless gameplay.

For PvP, All they need to do is fix colorless pool so that you can actually break free from it.

If they did this, almost no one would play arcanist in PvP except for the disciplined players who actually want to learn how to aim/use Fatecarver effectively in PvP conditions and enjoy the challenge of developing a new skill. Not too many 😁

Almost every arc I see in PVP these days is spamming colorless pool and using the tankiest undeath builds imaginable. And yet they somehow still manage to die.

The issue isn’t with colorless pool it’s with CC break not working the way it should for ANY stun, fear or whatever.

ZOS could change colorless or just completely remove it and we’d still have the same problem.

A good way to mess with a ball group is to use time stop on them or fears or Streak. If CC break doesn’t respond then they’re screwed.

Galeriano · January 14

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

, Mag Arcanist is pretty much on the bottom. So this tells me that while more people are using Arcanist, it doesn't quite make sense because other classes get higher scores. So if they want better scores then they should use other classes other than Arcanist. This is just Sanity's Edge too.

Mag Arcanist is on the bottom because there is absolutely no difference in skills from stam and mag. The only diff is enchanting max mag and attributes.
Since that changes Fatecarver to using mag resource, this screwes the sustain up massively, nobody in their righr mind would choose to pump mag instead of stam.

Any Arcanist worth their salt knows that, which is reflective in the numbers above.
6210:4

An the 'score' part of the picture is basically a median score between all the recorded parses.
Since there are 5× more parses than any other class, that just shows how easy it is for all those people to bring great damage numbers with Arcanist.

Also, Arcant healer is basically as popular as Warden (the best healer since Morrowind) while Arcanist tank is more popular than any other tank, including Dragonknight.

So when you say, not the best, I have no clue where you get that impression from.

Thanks for the information.

So basically Arcanist is popular but it does not say how strong it is for dps. I still don’t see a huge issue really but I don’t do trials.

I still don’t think you should nerf a class based on just one part of the game. Like I mentioned before, I think the leaderboards are a self nerfing system, once a new shiny comes out they will move to that. Whether the new shiny is a buffed class or a skill line I guess we will find out.

The cycle has been that a class shows up on top of the leaderboards and people freak out, that class is nerfed but a new shiny comes out and players move on anyway. What is left is a class that is now sub-par for everyone else who thought the class worked just fine. It’s not a good cycle because basically it’s “design all the classes and skills based on trials and leaderboard chasers and the rest of the player base will have to deal with it.”

I love PvP but that doesn’t mean I would want any classes changed/nerfed based on the leaderboards in Grey Host. (Or whatever your main PvP campaign is)

You can just look at damage done bracket to see how strong it is compared to others. It have the highest average DPS , the highest max DPS and the largest amount of people playing it in group PvE. There is as many DD arcanists particip[ating in trials as there is all the other classes combined. Arcanist dominates is all modes, HMs, veterans and normals. In situations like that something needs to be done because it's clear beyond any doubt that arcanist is highly overperforming.

HM SE

veteran SE

normal SE

And before You say that it's just one trial, similar situation is happening for every trial in the game. Arcanist obliterated group PvE. It's the worst situation in ESO logs history and possibly in ESO history. Never was one class dominating group PvE that hard.

Btw that argument about PvP leaderboards makes no sense. PvP leaderboards have little to do with class's strenght. PvE leadeboards on the other hand have lot to do with class's strenght.

OtarTheMad · January 14

Galeriano wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

, Mag Arcanist is pretty much on the bottom. So this tells me that while more people are using Arcanist, it doesn't quite make sense because other classes get higher scores. So if they want better scores then they should use other classes other than Arcanist. This is just Sanity's Edge too.

Mag Arcanist is on the bottom because there is absolutely no difference in skills from stam and mag. The only diff is enchanting max mag and attributes.
Since that changes Fatecarver to using mag resource, this screwes the sustain up massively, nobody in their righr mind would choose to pump mag instead of stam.

Any Arcanist worth their salt knows that, which is reflective in the numbers above.
6210:4

An the 'score' part of the picture is basically a median score between all the recorded parses.
Since there are 5× more parses than any other class, that just shows how easy it is for all those people to bring great damage numbers with Arcanist.

Also, Arcant healer is basically as popular as Warden (the best healer since Morrowind) while Arcanist tank is more popular than any other tank, including Dragonknight.

So when you say, not the best, I have no clue where you get that impression from.

Thanks for the information.

So basically Arcanist is popular but it does not say how strong it is for dps. I still don’t see a huge issue really but I don’t do trials.

I still don’t think you should nerf a class based on just one part of the game. Like I mentioned before, I think the leaderboards are a self nerfing system, once a new shiny comes out they will move to that. Whether the new shiny is a buffed class or a skill line I guess we will find out.

The cycle has been that a class shows up on top of the leaderboards and people freak out, that class is nerfed but a new shiny comes out and players move on anyway. What is left is a class that is now sub-par for everyone else who thought the class worked just fine. It’s not a good cycle because basically it’s “design all the classes and skills based on trials and leaderboard chasers and the rest of the player base will have to deal with it.”

I love PvP but that doesn’t mean I would want any classes changed/nerfed based on the leaderboards in Grey Host. (Or whatever your main PvP campaign is)

You can just look at damage done bracket to see how strong it is compared to others. It have the highest average DPS , the highest max DPS and the largest amount of people playing it in group PvE. There is as many DD arcanists particip[ating in trials as there is all the other classes combined. Arcanist dominates is all modes, HMs, veterans and normals. In situations like that something needs to be done because it's clear beyond any doubt that arcanist is highly overperforming.

HM SE

veteran SE

normal SE

And before You say that it's just one trial, similar situation is happening for every trial in the game. Arcanist obliterated group PvE. It's the worst situation in ESO logs history and possibly in ESO history. Never was one class dominating group PvE that hard.

Btw that argument about PvP leaderboards makes no sense. PvP leaderboards have little to do with class's strenght. PvE leadeboards on the other hand have lot to do with class's strenght.

Dude, you seriously have to leave me alone. You are trying to spark some sort of argument and I am just not here for that. I am here to learn, educate, and just have some conversations with some cool people and share ideas... that's it. We don't have to agree, that's perfectly okay. The information and data I have is just from players who play a different part of the game than you, the non-meta chasers, and all that. Your info comes from the score pushers/meta-chasers... it just clashes because we play different parts of the game, both valid ways to play I might add.

But seriously stop harassing me and trying to spark an argument. Please and thank you.

merpins · January 14

Galeriano wrote: »

Been playing since launch, really since the beta. There was a time Warden was the best DPS, a time when Necro was best DPS, DK tends to top DPS end game content when other classes aren't at the top. Arcanist is top right now, and will at some point be nerfed into the ground because Zos doesn't know the meaning of thoughtful balancing.

The main frontrunners of end game content, that had been playing ESO for years, the majority of them aren't running end game content right now or even playing the game. The majority of frontrunning guilds disbanded, are on a hiatus, or aren't running competitively right now. Arcanist IS easy to learn and to play, and thus people that didn't frontrun before can now. It has almost never been a 5 times majority of one class doing end game content in the leaderboards, from what I remember the highest was 2.5 times, and that's when DK was super overtuned. Compared to classes then, DK was stronger versus other classes, in comparison to how much stronger Arcanist is versus other classes now. For PVE, other classes need a slight adjustment up, and Arcanist needs a slight adjustment down. Between 5 and 10%, leaning towards 5. Fatecarver's damage should not be touched, other skills should, otherwise the class will just end up bad.

Galeriano · January 14

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

, Mag Arcanist is pretty much on the bottom. So this tells me that while more people are using Arcanist, it doesn't quite make sense because other classes get higher scores. So if they want better scores then they should use other classes other than Arcanist. This is just Sanity's Edge too.

Mag Arcanist is on the bottom because there is absolutely no difference in skills from stam and mag. The only diff is enchanting max mag and attributes.
Since that changes Fatecarver to using mag resource, this screwes the sustain up massively, nobody in their righr mind would choose to pump mag instead of stam.

Any Arcanist worth their salt knows that, which is reflective in the numbers above.
6210:4

An the 'score' part of the picture is basically a median score between all the recorded parses.
Since there are 5× more parses than any other class, that just shows how easy it is for all those people to bring great damage numbers with Arcanist.

Also, Arcant healer is basically as popular as Warden (the best healer since Morrowind) while Arcanist tank is more popular than any other tank, including Dragonknight.

So when you say, not the best, I have no clue where you get that impression from.

Thanks for the information.

So basically Arcanist is popular but it does not say how strong it is for dps. I still don’t see a huge issue really but I don’t do trials.

I still don’t think you should nerf a class based on just one part of the game. Like I mentioned before, I think the leaderboards are a self nerfing system, once a new shiny comes out they will move to that. Whether the new shiny is a buffed class or a skill line I guess we will find out.

The cycle has been that a class shows up on top of the leaderboards and people freak out, that class is nerfed but a new shiny comes out and players move on anyway. What is left is a class that is now sub-par for everyone else who thought the class worked just fine. It’s not a good cycle because basically it’s “design all the classes and skills based on trials and leaderboard chasers and the rest of the player base will have to deal with it.”

I love PvP but that doesn’t mean I would want any classes changed/nerfed based on the leaderboards in Grey Host. (Or whatever your main PvP campaign is)

You can just look at damage done bracket to see how strong it is compared to others. It have the highest average DPS , the highest max DPS and the largest amount of people playing it in group PvE. There is as many DD arcanists particip[ating in trials as there is all the other classes combined. Arcanist dominates is all modes, HMs, veterans and normals. In situations like that something needs to be done because it's clear beyond any doubt that arcanist is highly overperforming.

HM SE

veteran SE

normal SE

And before You say that it's just one trial, similar situation is happening for every trial in the game. Arcanist obliterated group PvE. It's the worst situation in ESO logs history and possibly in ESO history. Never was one class dominating group PvE that hard.

Btw that argument about PvP leaderboards makes no sense. PvP leaderboards have little to do with class's strenght. PvE leadeboards on the other hand have lot to do with class's strenght.

Dude, you seriously have to leave me alone. You are trying to spark some sort of argument and I am just not here for that. I am here to learn, educate, and just have some conversations with some cool people and share ideas... that's it. We don't have to agree, that's perfectly okay. The information and data I have is just from players who play a different part of the game than you, the non-meta chasers, and all that. Your info comes from the score pushers/meta-chasers... it just clashes because we play different parts of the game, both valid ways to play I might add.

But seriously stop harassing me and trying to spark an argument. Please and thank you.

You said that "it doesn't show how strong it is it DPS" and I provided You with that specific data. I really don't see the harassment in that.

As for Your accusation that I am using informations coming from score pushers/meta chasers, it is far from the truth. I specifically provided data from HM, veteran and normal runs to cover all basis. Fact that You play different parts of the game will not change the reality in a topic that is arcanist's strenght in group PvE. The main difference is that You preffer to rely on opinions when I preffer to rely on math and data.

Galeriano · January 14

merpins wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Been playing since launch, really since the beta. There was a time Warden was the best DPS, a time when Necro was best DPS, DK tends to top DPS end game content when other classes aren't at the top. Arcanist is top right now, and will at some point be nerfed into the ground because Zos doesn't know the meaning of thoughtful balancing.

The main frontrunners of end game content, that had been playing ESO for years, the majority of them aren't running end game content right now or even playing the game. The majority of frontrunning guilds disbanded, are on a hiatus, or aren't running competitively right now. Arcanist IS easy to learn and to play, and thus people that didn't frontrun before can now. It has almost never been a 5 times majority of one class doing end game content in the leaderboards, from what I remember the highest was 2.5 times, and that's when DK was super overtuned. Compared to classes then, DK was stronger versus other classes, in comparison to how much stronger Arcanist is versus other classes now. For PVE, other classes need a slight adjustment up, and Arcanist needs a slight adjustment down. Between 5 and 10%, leaning towards 5. Fatecarver's damage should not be touched, other skills should, otherwise the class will just end up bad.

Main frontrunners change all the time. It really doesn't change the fact that to be in top scorepusihing teams You need to be in top percentile of playerbase. Old frontrunners are just replaced with new ones that are equally good. Guilds are also reforming or created anew, scorepushing and progressing still exists. Arcanist being easy literally changes nothing in that regard. Lot of people who are frotnrunners now were frontrunners in different groups before arcanist even existed. Like I've sais already people who are in top are capable to scorepush on any class and fact arcanist is easier to play for average playerss doesn't impact top players that much.

Arcanist now compared to other classes is stronger than DK was during his latest prime time. Quite frankly in group PvE arcanist is propably the strongest class compared to others since 2014-2015 era. That combined with easier playstyle results with overwhelming popularity of the class in all difficulty types.

Also "There was a time Warden was the best DPS"? When? Warden is the only class that was never a meta DD in PvE.

Hottytotz · January 15

To tell you the current state of balance for dps classes anyone with 2 brain cells can go to ESO Logs and just click trial by trail. Dont just look at Vet Hard Mode either. You will see wall after wall after wall of arcanist dps logs blanketing the screen for pages at the top of the dps. You dont need a doctorate degree and usually using tools like popularity and score checking is a terrible way to process data as all group setting and nuance are taken out of the equation. When you look boss by boss and look at group composition all you see for even semi-casual groups is 3-6 dps arcanists per group because at this point even if you are a less hardcore player you are grievfng you group if your not playing dps arcanist or dk dps.

Obviously exceptions are if you are a dps that is wearing support sets for the group but again these "dps" are 1/3 of an arcanist dps. The other exception is bosses with huge execute value for templar beamers but again is that how we want the game to be? Its only efficient to play necro and templar when they are bring catalyst or execute?

OtarTheMad · January 15

Well we will see what happens to Arcanist in 2024 but my guess is that it will get hit with the Nerf Hammer and some people will get what they wanted. But they also won’t because the issue of a class flooding the leaderboards more than any other won’t go away, it’ll just change to another class. The real problem isn’t getting solved by nerfing Arcanist.

What I’ve been trying to say is work on the other classes that are struggling like my poor Necromancer and make them appealing and just as attractive to use for score pushers and min-maxers etc. You make classes just as attractive and fun to use as Arcanist and DK then you’ll have some variety but also each class is still different and unique.

My idea for toning down Arcanist was to move some off of Flail, overall Flail stays the same but the execute and the heal are moved to other abilities. I’d say move the execute to Imperfect Ring and move the heal to Tome-Bearer’s Inspiration. How the heal would work in my idea is after the ability expires, 30 seconds I believe, the caster will get healed for an amount but if the ability is recast before it expires then the caster doesn’t get healed and the timer restarts. I would also tone down the Gibbering Shield ultimate, which is about a 30k shield, down to maybe 20k or 25k and see how that works. I’d also increase the damage on Runeblades by a bit to make that more appealing as a spammable. I wouldn’t touch much else, even the abilities range which is 22m, I hate that but it’s part of the theme of the class and it’s different so whatever.

Well, that’s all I have to say on the subject.

MudcrabAttack · January 16

Galeriano wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

It’s just the same thing as Oakensoul several months ago, a majority using the popular build that feels easier to manage.

Meanwhile over two thousand mag/stam Templars are banging out higher average scores in VSE HM, less average dps but top AOE damage isn’t everything

The speed running players will always clear with the fastest times no matter what meta they’re using from one patch to the next, and among the highest avg scores you always see the obligatory stamsorc (for minor prophecy), dragonknight (Zen, minor brutality, Alkosh), Necro (vulnerability and catalyst)

Poor nightblade and warden aren’t needed or anywhere close to competing. Sorc already gives minor crit buff and Arcanist can easily slap brittle on something for 20 whole seconds

Arcanist is both easier to manage and the strongest DPS at the same time.

These templars are literally being carried by arcanists. Every templar who got score that increased class's average was a member of a team dominated by arcanists and his good score just improved the average score for overall state of the class. It's pretty normal that the best class will not be getting the highest average score in that particular table. Main reason is overwhelming amount of people playing the best class which makes it harder to come up with highest average at the end. DK for example which was a meta before arcanist came in was also not getting top average score. It's basically a hard rule that the strongest DD class will never be top DD in this particular table.

Just by looking at average scores we can also praise DK healers for being the best trial setup which we all know isn't the case.

When it comes to damage arcanist is just dominating, leaving everyone behind in both trash and boss fights. Here are the results of damage done from the same data table posted by You

When 90% of the top 1% are all playing the same thing, they can make that one thing appear to be really good by a wide margin in comparison to everything else. That's not to say everything else is bad by a wide margin.

Look inside the group with fastest clear time for Ansuul as of today, the Arcanist Beamer DPS weren't in the top spot. A Necromancer wearing Elemental Catalyst beat them all by 5%. The Templar was on warlock duty. If the amazing 180k beamer AOE damage was all that mattered, why weren't any of them in the fastest Ansuul clear?

In the current fastest clear of arch wizard the two templars were 2nd and 3rd, 5% behind the 1st Arcanist Beamer, I wouldn't say they were carried

In the current fastest clear of Exarc the templar was 10% behind the top beamer. Again I wouldn't say they were carried, but that fight has a big stretch of area to cover.

If anything the 20m long AOE DPS is a bit overtuned, like with Rockgrove, or Sunspire where Lokkestiz and Navi adds can so easily melt like butter and speed up the fight a lot. However Looking at Yolnakrin, the current top Beamer Arcanist still hasn't caught up to the top nightblade from Update 37. There's probably a perfectly sized adjustment that could be made, but I'd find it a miracle if the devs can even find that sweet spot instead of demolishing it too hard

Galeriano · January 16

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

It’s just the same thing as Oakensoul several months ago, a majority using the popular build that feels easier to manage.

Meanwhile over two thousand mag/stam Templars are banging out higher average scores in VSE HM, less average dps but top AOE damage isn’t everything

The speed running players will always clear with the fastest times no matter what meta they’re using from one patch to the next, and among the highest avg scores you always see the obligatory stamsorc (for minor prophecy), dragonknight (Zen, minor brutality, Alkosh), Necro (vulnerability and catalyst)

Poor nightblade and warden aren’t needed or anywhere close to competing. Sorc already gives minor crit buff and Arcanist can easily slap brittle on something for 20 whole seconds

Arcanist is both easier to manage and the strongest DPS at the same time.

These templars are literally being carried by arcanists. Every templar who got score that increased class's average was a member of a team dominated by arcanists and his good score just improved the average score for overall state of the class. It's pretty normal that the best class will not be getting the highest average score in that particular table. Main reason is overwhelming amount of people playing the best class which makes it harder to come up with highest average at the end. DK for example which was a meta before arcanist came in was also not getting top average score. It's basically a hard rule that the strongest DD class will never be top DD in this particular table.

Just by looking at average scores we can also praise DK healers for being the best trial setup which we all know isn't the case.

When it comes to damage arcanist is just dominating, leaving everyone behind in both trash and boss fights. Here are the results of damage done from the same data table posted by You

When 90% of the top 1% are all playing the same thing, they can make that one thing appear to be really good by a wide margin in comparison to everything else. That's not to say everything else is bad by a wide margin.

Look inside the group with fastest clear time for Ansuul as of today, the Arcanist Beamer DPS weren't in the top spot. A Necromancer wearing Elemental Catalyst beat them all by 5%. The Templar was on warlock duty. If the amazing 180k beamer AOE damage was all that mattered, why weren't any of them in the fastest Ansuul clear?

In the current fastest clear of arch wizard the two templars were 2nd and 3rd, 5% behind the 1st Arcanist Beamer, I wouldn't say they were carried

In the current fastest clear of Exarc the templar was 10% behind the top beamer. Again I wouldn't say they were carried, but that fight has a big stretch of area to cover.

If anything the 20m long AOE DPS is a bit overtuned, like with Rockgrove, or Sunspire where Lokkestiz and Navi adds can so easily melt like butter and speed up the fight a lot. However Looking at Yolnakrin, the current top Beamer Arcanist still hasn't caught up to the top nightblade from Update 37. There's probably a perfectly sized adjustment that could be made, but I'd find it a miracle if the devs can even find that sweet spot instead of demolishing it too hard

I mean You can check lower percentiles in non HM modes on ESO logs if You want wider range of data and to look on more casual approaches. You will see arcanist dominating anyway. And it's not 90% of top 1% it's more like a 50%. It's really not that hard to notice that arcanist is simply stronger than other classes in group PvE content and there is many arguments and comparisions proving that.

Necro You are talking about was using Azureblight instead of one arcanist which allowed him to pull high numbers. It did like 25% of his DPS. It was one fight where he could and where he was allowed to do that numbers. If You look at full trial numbers that necro is still behind all arcanists and he still would be even if he wouldn't be wearing EC. Also You really don't know how much would that person do if he/she would come as arcanist. It's highly possible it would be even more since top arcanist DPS numbers in that fight are noticably higher than what this necro had. Cherrypicking one specific fight out of context to fit specific narration really won't change the reality and singular exception just proves general rule.

Every templar in highest score runs is currently being carried by arcanists. Without arcanist dominated team that templars wouldn't be a part of highest score runs. Arcanist dmg is currently a core of high scores. Fact that templars and other classes are capable to perform really nice in specific fights given specific conditions won't change that because arcanists are capable to perform really nice in almost every fight.

Current top beamer on Yolna (U39) have better DPS than best nb ever and also one of the best in ESO logs history (excluding inflated bugged parses). He have 132k when best nightblade had 128k in U36. The only 3 parses higher than his were made with old kilt and simmering frenzy. Personally I don't find Yolna as reliable source of any info though considering how easily DPS there can be inflated with a help of iron servants. Also like I said before few cherrypicked parses won't change the reality and have little to no meaning when talking about general state of the game. Fact that You need to look for single specific fights in specific trials during specific time periods only for those to be comparable to arcanists scores just proves how overtuned arcanist is currently.

Hottytotz · January 16

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

It’s just the same thing as Oakensoul several months ago, a majority using the popular build that feels easier to manage.

Meanwhile over two thousand mag/stam Templars are banging out higher average scores in VSE HM, less average dps but top AOE damage isn’t everything

The speed running players will always clear with the fastest times no matter what meta they’re using from one patch to the next, and among the highest avg scores you always see the obligatory stamsorc (for minor prophecy), dragonknight (Zen, minor brutality, Alkosh), Necro (vulnerability and catalyst)

Poor nightblade and warden aren’t needed or anywhere close to competing. Sorc already gives minor crit buff and Arcanist can easily slap brittle on something for 20 whole seconds

Arcanist is both easier to manage and the strongest DPS at the same time.

These templars are literally being carried by arcanists. Every templar who got score that increased class's average was a member of a team dominated by arcanists and his good score just improved the average score for overall state of the class. It's pretty normal that the best class will not be getting the highest average score in that particular table. Main reason is overwhelming amount of people playing the best class which makes it harder to come up with highest average at the end. DK for example which was a meta before arcanist came in was also not getting top average score. It's basically a hard rule that the strongest DD class will never be top DD in this particular table.

Just by looking at average scores we can also praise DK healers for being the best trial setup which we all know isn't the case.

When it comes to damage arcanist is just dominating, leaving everyone behind in both trash and boss fights. Here are the results of damage done from the same data table posted by You

When 90% of the top 1% are all playing the same thing, they can make that one thing appear to be really good by a wide margin in comparison to everything else. That's not to say everything else is bad by a wide margin.

Look inside the group with fastest clear time for Ansuul as of today, the Arcanist Beamer DPS weren't in the top spot. A Necromancer wearing Elemental Catalyst beat them all by 5%. The Templar was on warlock duty. If the amazing 180k beamer AOE damage was all that mattered, why weren't any of them in the fastest Ansuul clear?

In the current fastest clear of arch wizard the two templars were 2nd and 3rd, 5% behind the 1st Arcanist Beamer, I wouldn't say they were carried

In the current fastest clear of Exarc the templar was 10% behind the top beamer. Again I wouldn't say they were carried, but that fight has a big stretch of area to cover.

If anything the 20m long AOE DPS is a bit overtuned, like with Rockgrove, or Sunspire where Lokkestiz and Navi adds can so easily melt like butter and speed up the fight a lot. However Looking at Yolnakrin, the current top Beamer Arcanist still hasn't caught up to the top nightblade from Update 37. There's probably a perfectly sized adjustment that could be made, but I'd find it a miracle if the devs can even find that sweet spot instead of demolishing it too hard

Super disingenuous post here.... Anyone can go to ESO Logs and just go boss by boss for 10 pages of dps rankings for every single trial boss in the game for the last couple patches even... Its 80% arcanists and 10% dks and templars on fights were beamers are actually decent.

To act like most decent to hardcore groups are not taking 3-5 dps arcanists is just flat out lying and misleading. Anyone clicking on logs for more than 20s will see the reality of the situation. The fact that the first 5 pages of top dpsers are 80-90% arcanists tells all. Its not a debate. Its similar to how necro was stacked as dps because of blast bones tuning and colossus major vuln being only available to them. The real difference between those two metas was that necro is really hard to get the rotation and rhythm down while arcanist is aaaaaalmost sorc levels of easy. If it didnt have crux it would be sorc levels of easy in PVE.

Dubhliam · January 19

Hottytotz wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

It’s just the same thing as Oakensoul several months ago, a majority using the popular build that feels easier to manage.

Meanwhile over two thousand mag/stam Templars are banging out higher average scores in VSE HM, less average dps but top AOE damage isn’t everything

The speed running players will always clear with the fastest times no matter what meta they’re using from one patch to the next, and among the highest avg scores you always see the obligatory stamsorc (for minor prophecy), dragonknight (Zen, minor brutality, Alkosh), Necro (vulnerability and catalyst)

Poor nightblade and warden aren’t needed or anywhere close to competing. Sorc already gives minor crit buff and Arcanist can easily slap brittle on something for 20 whole seconds

Arcanist is both easier to manage and the strongest DPS at the same time.

These templars are literally being carried by arcanists. Every templar who got score that increased class's average was a member of a team dominated by arcanists and his good score just improved the average score for overall state of the class. It's pretty normal that the best class will not be getting the highest average score in that particular table. Main reason is overwhelming amount of people playing the best class which makes it harder to come up with highest average at the end. DK for example which was a meta before arcanist came in was also not getting top average score. It's basically a hard rule that the strongest DD class will never be top DD in this particular table.

Just by looking at average scores we can also praise DK healers for being the best trial setup which we all know isn't the case.

When it comes to damage arcanist is just dominating, leaving everyone behind in both trash and boss fights. Here are the results of damage done from the same data table posted by You

When 90% of the top 1% are all playing the same thing, they can make that one thing appear to be really good by a wide margin in comparison to everything else. That's not to say everything else is bad by a wide margin.

Look inside the group with fastest clear time for Ansuul as of today, the Arcanist Beamer DPS weren't in the top spot. A Necromancer wearing Elemental Catalyst beat them all by 5%. The Templar was on warlock duty. If the amazing 180k beamer AOE damage was all that mattered, why weren't any of them in the fastest Ansuul clear?

In the current fastest clear of arch wizard the two templars were 2nd and 3rd, 5% behind the 1st Arcanist Beamer, I wouldn't say they were carried

In the current fastest clear of Exarc the templar was 10% behind the top beamer. Again I wouldn't say they were carried, but that fight has a big stretch of area to cover.

If anything the 20m long AOE DPS is a bit overtuned, like with Rockgrove, or Sunspire where Lokkestiz and Navi adds can so easily melt like butter and speed up the fight a lot. However Looking at Yolnakrin, the current top Beamer Arcanist still hasn't caught up to the top nightblade from Update 37. There's probably a perfectly sized adjustment that could be made, but I'd find it a miracle if the devs can even find that sweet spot instead of demolishing it too hard

Super disingenuous post here.... Anyone can go to ESO Logs and just go boss by boss for 10 pages of dps rankings for every single trial boss in the game for the last couple patches even... Its 80% arcanists and 10% dks and templars on fights were beamers are actually decent.

To act like most decent to hardcore groups are not taking 3-5 dps arcanists is just flat out lying and misleading. Anyone clicking on logs for more than 20s will see the reality of the situation. The fact that the first 5 pages of top dpsers are 80-90% arcanists tells all. Its not a debate. Its similar to how necro was stacked as dps because of blast bones tuning and colossus major vuln being only available to them. The real difference between those two metas was that necro is really hard to get the rotation and rhythm down while arcanist is aaaaaalmost sorc levels of easy. If it didnt have crux it would be sorc levels of easy in PVE.

Can totally agree with your sentiment.

But a class being easy to play is not really an issue in my opinion.
Being easy AND overpowered is.

I would really love it if devs would take some time to tone down Arcanist so that players would actually play what they want to play instead of thinking they are forced to play this class because it is the best.
Because it IS the best.

OtarTheMad · January 19

Dubhliam wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think hard numbers are far more revealing than words and opinions.

It’s just the same thing as Oakensoul several months ago, a majority using the popular build that feels easier to manage.

Meanwhile over two thousand mag/stam Templars are banging out higher average scores in VSE HM, less average dps but top AOE damage isn’t everything

The speed running players will always clear with the fastest times no matter what meta they’re using from one patch to the next, and among the highest avg scores you always see the obligatory stamsorc (for minor prophecy), dragonknight (Zen, minor brutality, Alkosh), Necro (vulnerability and catalyst)

Poor nightblade and warden aren’t needed or anywhere close to competing. Sorc already gives minor crit buff and Arcanist can easily slap brittle on something for 20 whole seconds

Arcanist is both easier to manage and the strongest DPS at the same time.

These templars are literally being carried by arcanists. Every templar who got score that increased class's average was a member of a team dominated by arcanists and his good score just improved the average score for overall state of the class. It's pretty normal that the best class will not be getting the highest average score in that particular table. Main reason is overwhelming amount of people playing the best class which makes it harder to come up with highest average at the end. DK for example which was a meta before arcanist came in was also not getting top average score. It's basically a hard rule that the strongest DD class will never be top DD in this particular table.

Just by looking at average scores we can also praise DK healers for being the best trial setup which we all know isn't the case.

When it comes to damage arcanist is just dominating, leaving everyone behind in both trash and boss fights. Here are the results of damage done from the same data table posted by You

When 90% of the top 1% are all playing the same thing, they can make that one thing appear to be really good by a wide margin in comparison to everything else. That's not to say everything else is bad by a wide margin.

Look inside the group with fastest clear time for Ansuul as of today, the Arcanist Beamer DPS weren't in the top spot. A Necromancer wearing Elemental Catalyst beat them all by 5%. The Templar was on warlock duty. If the amazing 180k beamer AOE damage was all that mattered, why weren't any of them in the fastest Ansuul clear?

In the current fastest clear of arch wizard the two templars were 2nd and 3rd, 5% behind the 1st Arcanist Beamer, I wouldn't say they were carried

In the current fastest clear of Exarc the templar was 10% behind the top beamer. Again I wouldn't say they were carried, but that fight has a big stretch of area to cover.

If anything the 20m long AOE DPS is a bit overtuned, like with Rockgrove, or Sunspire where Lokkestiz and Navi adds can so easily melt like butter and speed up the fight a lot. However Looking at Yolnakrin, the current top Beamer Arcanist still hasn't caught up to the top nightblade from Update 37. There's probably a perfectly sized adjustment that could be made, but I'd find it a miracle if the devs can even find that sweet spot instead of demolishing it too hard

Super disingenuous post here.... Anyone can go to ESO Logs and just go boss by boss for 10 pages of dps rankings for every single trial boss in the game for the last couple patches even... Its 80% arcanists and 10% dks and templars on fights were beamers are actually decent.

To act like most decent to hardcore groups are not taking 3-5 dps arcanists is just flat out lying and misleading. Anyone clicking on logs for more than 20s will see the reality of the situation. The fact that the first 5 pages of top dpsers are 80-90% arcanists tells all. Its not a debate. Its similar to how necro was stacked as dps because of blast bones tuning and colossus major vuln being only available to them. The real difference between those two metas was that necro is really hard to get the rotation and rhythm down while arcanist is aaaaaalmost sorc levels of easy. If it didnt have crux it would be sorc levels of easy in PVE.

Can totally agree with your sentiment.

But a class being easy to play is not really an issue in my opinion.
Being easy AND overpowered is.

I would really love it if devs would take some time to tone down Arcanist so that players would actually play what they want to play instead of thinking they are forced to play this class because it is the best.
Because it IS the best.

Here is the thing though, and I do agree that no one should feel forced to play anything they don’t want. However, people doing endgame stuff like leaderboards chasing and score pushing and all that, those players will all flock to whatever gets them the best and fastest score. That will usually make whatever class is flooding the leaderboards over performing.

I know of a lot of players who do indeed just log into whatever they want, do whatever content they want and have fun doing it. Maybe Scribing will open things up, I am guessing not but we will see sometime in June. I predict though that Arcanist will be toned down, but then it’ll probably just go back to a DK meta and you’ll see those threads popping up again calling for them to be nerfed because of leaderboards.

The moral of my long post is, it’s not going to change. Players looking to score push and chase leaderboards and all that will always seek whatever gets them the higher and faster score. When other like minded players find out what that thing is they flock to it like someone feeding the birds in the park. So with that in mind players should just log into whatever they want, if you aren’t a leaderboard person then don’t focus on that… just play what is fun. Even my broken of a class Necromancer can get all content done…