Consequences of Hybridization

Tyrant_Tim

https://youtu.be/H4Uml_2GqB4?si=A2eilKK3ztWDcnt6

Over the last year I’ve been looking for a video that summarizes exactly what the problems with Hybridization are and as of today I’ve found it.

React

Completely agree with everything Malcolm said in this video.

Hybridization effectively halved the number of classes in the game.

Tyrant_Tim

I feel like the goal was noble, but the execution was so horrible that it landed completely astray.

The idea of hybridization isn’t a bad one; it just only works when everything is useful. When one iteration works better than everything else, that becomes the only one being used.

auz

Great vid detailing the issues of hybridisation and homogenization.
Who could have predicted making everything the same would get stale?

SandandStars

Yes, spot-on.

Thanks for posting this!

Turtle_Bot

Agree with what Malcolm has said in the video. Hybridization itself was actually a really cool idea to reduce the amount of double ups of things that existed in ESO. Unfortunately, like so many of the good ideas they've tried to implement in this game, hybridization just got left unfinished/incomplete, resulting in a bigger mess after implementation than what the game was like before it was implemented.

Another recent one is the melee attack range increase, where most sets and even some abilities still have the old 5m or less range/radius making them borderline useless because they can't hit anything, even their intended melee range targets (especially with the desync issues plaguing the game currently).

The DoT nerf of U35 is another big, infamous one. The 2 second tick frequency is just too slow, for such fast paced combat like what happens in PvP. Especially when there's countless other abilities that rely on having that faster tick rate to have any real impact. Hence why abilities and sets that proc multiple DoTs at the same time have become the meta, they have a fast (or efficient) enough tick frequency to keep up.

Lastly, its the gap in power between the top classes and the rest with no real shift in that aspect for far too long. The past 2 years has seen this gap become the largest it has ever been outside of when all classes run the same generic proc build, hence why that proc build has become so prevalent. Bringing this gap in class power levels closer (doesn't have to be perfectly balanced, but keeping it within the 5-10% range) would help a lot with allowing the players to create their own rock paper scissors meta shifts during each patch, which would keep things much more interesting and result in much more diversity as players try to adapt their builds to either attempt to counter the counters to their class or focus even more on what their class is good at.
Hypothetical examples:

- Sorc becomes too common, NB and DK get to shine due to high burst out of nowhere or the ability to shrug off the damage and lock down the sorc.
- NB becomes too common, DK and Plar get to shine since they have AoE and the ability to shrug off or heal up from NB burst and apply counter pressure.
- Plar becomes too common, Sorc and NB get to shine with the ability to kite the plar and burst it down from outside of its reach.
- DK becomes too common, Plar and Sorc get to shine since plar can cleanse and heal DK pressure and sorc can kite and shield itself against DK pressure.

SmellyUnlimited

Hybridization seems to have favored magicka players more than anything. Being able to use cleave effectively, stamina morphs of abilities complementing the magicka based. Stamina classes are still stuck with vigor as their “survival” skill, where now every mag player has that integrated into their already robust survivability factor (range, shields, in-class heals, etc.).

reazea

Hybridization radically reduced the number of viable builds. In many cases now mag and stam toons are wearing the exact same sets. Vanilla ice cream is my favorite ice cream. But the same concept doesn't apply to MMO's.

Vaqual

In most RPGs that I play I like sticking to certain archetypes. I have always liked mixing spells and melee abilities. If I had to choose between "mag/stam" classes and the ability to combine skills that I actually like somewhat effectively I would always choose hybridization again.
The resource -"classes" had nothing interesting going for them. It was just that the mathematical optimum came with an additional, highly restrictive choice.
Do I think PvP is stale? A bit. Was it better before? Not a lot, if you ask me.
To be frank, I do not have a lot of respect for meta setups in roleplay games. Players forsaking all imagination/fantasy/roleplay to beat other people in an online RPG give me this "boomer on an e-bike overtaking you uphill on your regular bike" - vibe. Being good or bad as a player is something that is always separate from class or gear balancing, and I have never felt that winning with the FotM was an expression of skill. Re-rolling your race for PvP is the epitome of this absurdity for me and it really shows how little the RPG aspect is valued sometimes.

This is why this thread/the video is missing the point for me. Hybridization opened up options for character customization. The nature of how stats are distributed on gear and how scaling worked in the past was just incompatible with certain freedoms in character design. Not saying that simplification is something that I appreciate personally, but overall I felt a net-improvement with the level of satisfaction I can get from my builds. Dividing the world into "mag" and "stam" may not be so wrong, but with the way stats are tied to sets and how little real customizabilty the game offers in that regard it was definitively better to take away limitations there and open up the playing field for set and ability choices. Clearly balancing has not kept up, but the direction is right in my opinion.

tldr:
Right now we are at the point where restrictions have been removed and we perceive a lack of diversity as a consequence. We don't need to move backwards. I would rather like to see them adding more synergies and interesting interactions to make up for that and push build-diversity that way.

...and tbh, if MDW and Ele Sus are on every build, hybridization wouldn't be the first thing that I would fix...

Turtle_Bot

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Hybridization seems to have favored magicka players more than anything. Being able to use cleave effectively, stamina morphs of abilities complementing the magicka based. Stamina classes are still stuck with vigor as their “survival” skill, where now every mag player has that integrated into their already robust survivability factor (range, shields, in-class heals, etc.).

Any stamina build that is relying exclusively on vigor as its only "survival" tool is clearly not using any of the tools/options that hybridization opened up for stamina specs and is probably sitting there with a 15k magicka pool that never gets used.

Stamina benefited so much from hybridization, most notably from the access to all of the stronger magicka based heals that now also scale off stamina's superior raw damage/stat values, while costing the previously unused off resource that was being wasted before hybridization.

Having access to the magicka based heals not only gave stamina specs vastly superior survivability, but because stamina wasn't using any magicka previously outside of a few long duration buffs (resolve/brutality) the sustain stamina gets from being able to finally effectively utilize their off resource for healing is insane, it's like stamina specs got an additional 15k+ max resources for free to use for abilities and core combat mechanics (block, dodge roll, sprint, etc.) that they no longer need to use for heals outside of less frequent casts of vigor for minor resolve/as a heal to use on the front bar that heals them while they switch to the back bar.

Magicka specs actually lost sustain from the hybridization changes, since it now needs to slot and use vigor while also still using its off resource for core combat that it was already using before the changes because the magicka equivalent HoT (rapid regen) is so far behind vigor as a heal after resto staves got nerfed.

Tyrant_Tim

I wouldn’t say Magicka or Stamina benefit most, as it’s different for every class.

StamSorc definitely won hybridization, same with MagBlade.

Billium813

Stam vs Mag, Melee vs Range, Weapon vs Spell, Class vs Weapon, PvE vs PvP

The more they reduce everything down, the less anything matters. They want us to play however we want, but really that just means that nothing matters. They're trying to achieve perfect balance and it's literally impossible.

IZZEFlameLash

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Hybridization seems to have favored magicka players more than anything. Being able to use cleave effectively, stamina morphs of abilities complementing the magicka based. Stamina classes are still stuck with vigor as their “survival” skill, where now every mag player has that integrated into their already robust survivability factor (range, shields, in-class heals, etc.).

Any stamina build that is relying exclusively on vigor as its only "survival" tool is clearly not using any of the tools/options that hybridization opened up for stamina specs and is probably sitting there with a 15k magicka pool that never gets used.

Stamina benefited so much from hybridization, most notably from the access to all of the stronger magicka based heals that now also scale off stamina's superior raw damage/stat values, while costing the previously unused off resource that was being wasted before hybridization.

Having access to the magicka based heals not only gave stamina specs vastly superior survivability, but because stamina wasn't using any magicka previously outside of a few long duration buffs (resolve/brutality) the sustain stamina gets from being able to finally effectively utilize their off resource for healing is insane, it's like stamina specs got an additional 15k+ max resources for free to use for abilities and core combat mechanics (block, dodge roll, sprint, etc.) that they no longer need to use for heals outside of less frequent casts of vigor for minor resolve/as a heal to use on the front bar that heals them while they switch to the back bar.

Magicka specs actually lost sustain from the hybridization changes, since it now needs to slot and use vigor while also still using its off resource for core combat that it was already using before the changes because the magicka equivalent HoT (rapid regen) is so far behind vigor as a heal after resto staves got nerfed.

Tbf, even before the nerf, it was already pretty lackluster. It is a nightmare trying to get yourself a healing if someone happens by next to you because chances are, that person is a low health bowblade lol. Before hybridization, I've used Vigor on magicka spec and still healed for 200-300 more than Rapid too lol. So, I'd say it was always underwhelming.

Turtle_Bot

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Hybridization seems to have favored magicka players more than anything. Being able to use cleave effectively, stamina morphs of abilities complementing the magicka based. Stamina classes are still stuck with vigor as their “survival” skill, where now every mag player has that integrated into their already robust survivability factor (range, shields, in-class heals, etc.).

Any stamina build that is relying exclusively on vigor as its only "survival" tool is clearly not using any of the tools/options that hybridization opened up for stamina specs and is probably sitting there with a 15k magicka pool that never gets used.

Stamina benefited so much from hybridization, most notably from the access to all of the stronger magicka based heals that now also scale off stamina's superior raw damage/stat values, while costing the previously unused off resource that was being wasted before hybridization.

Having access to the magicka based heals not only gave stamina specs vastly superior survivability, but because stamina wasn't using any magicka previously outside of a few long duration buffs (resolve/brutality) the sustain stamina gets from being able to finally effectively utilize their off resource for healing is insane, it's like stamina specs got an additional 15k+ max resources for free to use for abilities and core combat mechanics (block, dodge roll, sprint, etc.) that they no longer need to use for heals outside of less frequent casts of vigor for minor resolve/as a heal to use on the front bar that heals them while they switch to the back bar.

Magicka specs actually lost sustain from the hybridization changes, since it now needs to slot and use vigor while also still using its off resource for core combat that it was already using before the changes because the magicka equivalent HoT (rapid regen) is so far behind vigor as a heal after resto staves got nerfed.

Tbf, even before the nerf, it was already pretty lackluster. It is a nightmare trying to get yourself a healing if someone happens by next to you because chances are, that person is a low health bowblade lol. Before hybridization, I've used Vigor on magicka spec and still healed for 200-300 more than Rapid too lol. So, I'd say it was always underwhelming.

Fair enough, I was running radiating before the nerf as at least getting the 1/3 was somewhat more reliable than trying to get that single heal (unless the nearby allies were numerous).

Just surprised tbh that they never buffed rapids when they gave resolving vigor, minor resolve or at the very least made it a self HoT only so that mag had the same choices as stam for globally available HoT.

MindOfTheSwarm

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Agree with what Malcolm has said in the video. Hybridization itself was actually a really cool idea to reduce the amount of double ups of things that existed in ESO. Unfortunately, like so many of the good ideas they've tried to implement in this game, hybridization just got left unfinished/incomplete, resulting in a bigger mess after implementation than what the game was like before it was implemented.

Another recent one is the melee attack range increase, where most sets and even some abilities still have the old 5m or less range/radius making them borderline useless because they can't hit anything, even their intended melee range targets (especially with the desync issues plaguing the game currently).

The DoT nerf of U35 is another big, infamous one. The 2 second tick frequency is just too slow, for such fast paced combat like what happens in PvP. Especially when there's countless other abilities that rely on having that faster tick rate to have any real impact. Hence why abilities and sets that proc multiple DoTs at the same time have become the meta, they have a fast (or efficient) enough tick frequency to keep up.

Lastly, its the gap in power between the top classes and the rest with no real shift in that aspect for far too long. The past 2 years has seen this gap become the largest it has ever been outside of when all classes run the same generic proc build, hence why that proc build has become so prevalent. Bringing this gap in class power levels closer (doesn't have to be perfectly balanced, but keeping it within the 5-10% range) would help a lot with allowing the players to create their own rock paper scissors meta shifts during each patch, which would keep things much more interesting and result in much more diversity as players try to adapt their builds to either attempt to counter the counters to their class or focus even more on what their class is good at.
Hypothetical examples:

- Sorc becomes too common, NB and DK get to shine due to high burst out of nowhere or the ability to shrug off the damage and lock down the sorc.
- NB becomes too common, DK and Plar get to shine since they have AoE and the ability to shrug off or heal up from NB burst and apply counter pressure.
- Plar becomes too common, Sorc and NB get to shine with the ability to kite the plar and burst it down from outside of its reach.
- DK becomes too common, Plar and Sorc get to shine since plar can cleanse and heal DK pressure and sorc can kite and shield itself against DK pressure.

I like what they did with extending DoT durations for the single target abilities. It results in larger spikes of damage when they tick. However, nerfing the ground AoE DoT damage was silly. They are meant for zone control and do not sufficiently perform that role in PvP.

Hottytotz

Vaqual wrote: »

In most RPGs that I play I like sticking to certain archetypes. I have always liked mixing spells and melee abilities. If I had to choose between "mag/stam" classes and the ability to combine skills that I actually like somewhat effectively I would always choose hybridization again.
The resource -"classes" had nothing interesting going for them. It was just that the mathematical optimum came with an additional, highly restrictive choice.
Do I think PvP is stale? A bit. Was it better before? Not a lot, if you ask me.
To be frank, I do not have a lot of respect for meta setups in roleplay games. Players forsaking all imagination/fantasy/roleplay to beat other people in an online RPG give me this "boomer on an e-bike overtaking you uphill on your regular bike" - vibe. Being good or bad as a player is something that is always separate from class or gear balancing, and I have never felt that winning with the FotM was an expression of skill. Re-rolling your race for PvP is the epitome of this absurdity for me and it really shows how little the RPG aspect is valued sometimes.

This is why this thread/the video is missing the point for me. Hybridization opened up options for character customization. The nature of how stats are distributed on gear and how scaling worked in the past was just incompatible with certain freedoms in character design. Not saying that simplification is something that I appreciate personally, but overall I felt a net-improvement with the level of satisfaction I can get from my builds. Dividing the world into "mag" and "stam" may not be so wrong, but with the way stats are tied to sets and how little real customizabilty the game offers in that regard it was definitively better to take away limitations there and open up the playing field for set and ability choices. Clearly balancing has not kept up, but the direction is right in my opinion.

tldr:
Right now we are at the point where restrictions have been removed and we perceive a lack of diversity as a consequence. We don't need to move backwards. I would rather like to see them adding more synergies and interesting interactions to make up for that and push build-diversity that way.

...and tbh, if MDW and Ele Sus are on every build, hybridization wouldn't be the first thing that I would fix...

I believe you kind of missed the point that for most players(not just hardcore ones), they want to do their best to be strong. Hybridization did not actually open up options for character customization. It opened up role play options but that is it. If you want to keep improving your character there are even less paths forward now. The overall build progression for even casuals was cut almost in half whether you like it or not. People running around with iceheart/julianos/.. in trials and vet dungeons are not the actual norm. Even casual players check out whats best every now and then. Hybridization shrunk what was considered meta by orders of magnitude.. Not increase it. For every skill like Vigor that can be used by multiple character types there were 2-3 abilities that will never get used now.

Braffin

Hottytotz wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

In most RPGs that I play I like sticking to certain archetypes. I have always liked mixing spells and melee abilities. If I had to choose between "mag/stam" classes and the ability to combine skills that I actually like somewhat effectively I would always choose hybridization again.
The resource -"classes" had nothing interesting going for them. It was just that the mathematical optimum came with an additional, highly restrictive choice.
Do I think PvP is stale? A bit. Was it better before? Not a lot, if you ask me.
To be frank, I do not have a lot of respect for meta setups in roleplay games. Players forsaking all imagination/fantasy/roleplay to beat other people in an online RPG give me this "boomer on an e-bike overtaking you uphill on your regular bike" - vibe. Being good or bad as a player is something that is always separate from class or gear balancing, and I have never felt that winning with the FotM was an expression of skill. Re-rolling your race for PvP is the epitome of this absurdity for me and it really shows how little the RPG aspect is valued sometimes.

This is why this thread/the video is missing the point for me. Hybridization opened up options for character customization. The nature of how stats are distributed on gear and how scaling worked in the past was just incompatible with certain freedoms in character design. Not saying that simplification is something that I appreciate personally, but overall I felt a net-improvement with the level of satisfaction I can get from my builds. Dividing the world into "mag" and "stam" may not be so wrong, but with the way stats are tied to sets and how little real customizabilty the game offers in that regard it was definitively better to take away limitations there and open up the playing field for set and ability choices. Clearly balancing has not kept up, but the direction is right in my opinion.

tldr:
Right now we are at the point where restrictions have been removed and we perceive a lack of diversity as a consequence. We don't need to move backwards. I would rather like to see them adding more synergies and interesting interactions to make up for that and push build-diversity that way.

...and tbh, if MDW and Ele Sus are on every build, hybridization wouldn't be the first thing that I would fix...

I believe you kind of missed the point that for most players(not just hardcore ones), they want to do their best to be strong. Hybridization did not actually open up options for character customization. It opened up role play options but that is it. If you want to keep improving your character there are even less paths forward now. The overall build progression for even casuals was cut almost in half whether you like it or not. People running around with iceheart/julianos/.. in trials and vet dungeons are not the actual norm. Even casual players check out whats best every now and then. Hybridization shrunk what was considered meta by orders of magnitude.. Not increase it. For every skill like Vigor that can be used by multiple character types there were 2-3 abilities that will never get used now.

If someone decides to chase meta, then of course there aren't many choices but exactly one (maybe it's not that extreme in PvP). That's the very nature of this term and no amount of wishful thinking will ever change that.

If we take a more reasonable approach and ask for viable builds which are sufficient to successfully complete a specific task, hybridization was quite a step onwards.

Sure, there are issues with hybridization (it's unfinished and some skills are in dire need of rework to make them useful), but it's definitely not the cause of a narrowed meta.

The real question is why do some people think a copy-pasted "meta"-build they don't understand will increase their enjoyment of the game.

Red99

Almost every classes use the same proc build in pvp, eso has become so boring

IZZEFlameLash

Red99 wrote: »

Almost every classes use the same proc build in pvp, eso has become so boring

That's like... been the problem ever since ZOS decided to release proc sets every update even after Viper's Sting nerf. All stam chars ran the same select few. All magicka chars ran same select few sets. Nothing changed with hybridization. It isn't really the cause. Just lack of ZOS' care to release something beyond proc sets and no clear direction.

Zodiarkslayer

Hybridization saved ESO from player exodus and future irrelevance.

The players that pay the most for ESO are typically uncompetitive (Housing, RP, fashion). So a system that gets competitive barriers out of your best customers way is good for the entire game. 🤓💡

BXR_Lonestar

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I feel like the goal was noble, but the execution was so horrible that it landed completely astray.

The idea of hybridization isn’t a bad one; it just only works when everything is useful. When one iteration works better than everything else, that becomes the only one being used.

I respect what you say, but I have to disagree. I don't think hybridization was a poorly executed but well intended idea. It was a bad idea to begin with IMO because the results were entirely predictable: not only did this effectively "half" the number of classes, but it narrowed the meta even more because now there isn't a separate meta for stam and mag - instead, there is just 5-6 elite sets that are meta regardless of build. These consequences were entirely predictable, and they did it anyways to satisfy small, but vocal minority of players who wanted to "play how they want to" without accepting that how they want to play may not be meta or end-game worthy.

The game designers had a vision that stam characters would perform differently from mag characters - or why else have those classifications to begin with? They should have stuck to their guns and just been honest with people that "play how you want to play" doesn't mean that every build you want to run is going to be meta or endgame worthy.

katorga

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Hybridization saved ESO from player exodus and future irrelevance.

The players that pay the most for ESO are typically uncompetitive (Housing, RP, fashion). So a system that gets competitive barriers out of your best customers way is good for the entire game. 🤓💡

Agree, additionally all of the players wanting a level playing field because "player skill is all that should matter" have their wish. Every build is the same.

Really we went from two BIS DPS setups to one BIS setup.

PVP, basically one BIS setup, but in my opinion that is an opportunity to play against the meta.

reazea

katorga wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Hybridization saved ESO from player exodus and future irrelevance.

The players that pay the most for ESO are typically uncompetitive (Housing, RP, fashion). So a system that gets competitive barriers out of your best customers way is good for the entire game. 🤓💡

Agree, additionally all of the players wanting a level playing field because "player skill is all that should matter" have their wish. Every build is the same.

Really we went from two BIS DPS setups to one BIS setup.

PVP, basically one BIS setup, but in my opinion that is an opportunity to play against the meta.

Or it means the player closer to the server farm and has less lag wins the 1v1 fight most of the time. Too bad if you're in Australia or Japan I guess.

CameraBeardThePirate

Hybridization can only work if all morphs are created equal. When you can use any morph, and 1 morph is way better than the other, you have no reason to use the lesser morph.

fred4

What it boils down to is, if you're tired of competitive open world PvP, take a break from that. Malcolm is as much a 0.1%ter as the competitive PvEers he mentions. To say you cannot enter PvP, especially open world PvP, without a competitive build is nonsense. The reason he would say that is because he is among a group of streamers and YouTubers who get views from showing off their duelling, small-scaling and 1vXing prowess. He makes builds for that specific purpose. If that is your aspiration then, yeah, he may have a point. However, if you wish to participate in the campaign and you care about the map, or you just want to have some fun zerging, then far from it. Open world fights are decided by numbers and by open world strategies. I'm sure I've swung the balance of a few keep fights by playing sabotage with my nightblade for example, e.g. by burning siege, repairing outer doors during an inner siege, and so on. You don't need a meta small-scaling build for that.

I also find it weird he complains about a lack of combat changes. Perhaps that doesn't work for him as a creator, but like he says himself: We've had the opposite problem in the past. Where do you strike the balance? I suspect whatever you do, you won't do right by someone.

I agree that old playstyles have been lost, notably the traditional magicka-stacking magsorc that Malcolm was known for. I think this has reduced playstyle and class differences, like he says, and this has been detrimental to the game. With hindsight, how could it have been any different? I'm not convinced hybridisation was a good idea. On the other hand I disagree that Dragon's Appetite, Way of Fire, Marselok, Zaan, Vateshran Ice Staff and Master dual-wield are the only things I run into. Far from it. Are those still the most effective ways to build for small-scaling? Possibly, but I don't know. I don't build that way. Perhaps Malcolm is just stuck in a rut.

Hottytotz

Braffin wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

In most RPGs that I play I like sticking to certain archetypes. I have always liked mixing spells and melee abilities. If I had to choose between "mag/stam" classes and the ability to combine skills that I actually like somewhat effectively I would always choose hybridization again.
The resource -"classes" had nothing interesting going for them. It was just that the mathematical optimum came with an additional, highly restrictive choice.
Do I think PvP is stale? A bit. Was it better before? Not a lot, if you ask me.
To be frank, I do not have a lot of respect for meta setups in roleplay games. Players forsaking all imagination/fantasy/roleplay to beat other people in an online RPG give me this "boomer on an e-bike overtaking you uphill on your regular bike" - vibe. Being good or bad as a player is something that is always separate from class or gear balancing, and I have never felt that winning with the FotM was an expression of skill. Re-rolling your race for PvP is the epitome of this absurdity for me and it really shows how little the RPG aspect is valued sometimes.

This is why this thread/the video is missing the point for me. Hybridization opened up options for character customization. The nature of how stats are distributed on gear and how scaling worked in the past was just incompatible with certain freedoms in character design. Not saying that simplification is something that I appreciate personally, but overall I felt a net-improvement with the level of satisfaction I can get from my builds. Dividing the world into "mag" and "stam" may not be so wrong, but with the way stats are tied to sets and how little real customizabilty the game offers in that regard it was definitively better to take away limitations there and open up the playing field for set and ability choices. Clearly balancing has not kept up, but the direction is right in my opinion.

tldr:
Right now we are at the point where restrictions have been removed and we perceive a lack of diversity as a consequence. We don't need to move backwards. I would rather like to see them adding more synergies and interesting interactions to make up for that and push build-diversity that way.

...and tbh, if MDW and Ele Sus are on every build, hybridization wouldn't be the first thing that I would fix...

I believe you kind of missed the point that for most players(not just hardcore ones), they want to do their best to be strong. Hybridization did not actually open up options for character customization. It opened up role play options but that is it. If you want to keep improving your character there are even less paths forward now. The overall build progression for even casuals was cut almost in half whether you like it or not. People running around with iceheart/julianos/.. in trials and vet dungeons are not the actual norm. Even casual players check out whats best every now and then. Hybridization shrunk what was considered meta by orders of magnitude.. Not increase it. For every skill like Vigor that can be used by multiple character types there were 2-3 abilities that will never get used now.

If someone decides to chase meta, then of course there aren't many choices but exactly one (maybe it's not that extreme in PvP). That's the very nature of this term and no amount of wishful thinking will ever change that.

If we take a more reasonable approach and ask for viable builds which are sufficient to successfully complete a specific task, hybridization was quite a step onwards.

Sure, there are issues with hybridization (it's unfinished and some skills are in dire need of rework to make them useful), but it's definitely not the cause of a narrowed meta.

The real question is why do some people think a copy-pasted "meta"-build they don't understand will increase their enjoyment of the game.

Its naive to think that even for casual players that thier enjoyment is not tied to player power. The stronger and better they perform has proven over and over and over again to be what drives the vast majority of players to keep playing the game. Its not an opinion. Throwing random abilities together to fit a theme but for them to not work most of the time is not fulfilling or enjoyable to anyone but the RPers.

Braffin

Hottytotz wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

In most RPGs that I play I like sticking to certain archetypes. I have always liked mixing spells and melee abilities. If I had to choose between "mag/stam" classes and the ability to combine skills that I actually like somewhat effectively I would always choose hybridization again.
The resource -"classes" had nothing interesting going for them. It was just that the mathematical optimum came with an additional, highly restrictive choice.
Do I think PvP is stale? A bit. Was it better before? Not a lot, if you ask me.
To be frank, I do not have a lot of respect for meta setups in roleplay games. Players forsaking all imagination/fantasy/roleplay to beat other people in an online RPG give me this "boomer on an e-bike overtaking you uphill on your regular bike" - vibe. Being good or bad as a player is something that is always separate from class or gear balancing, and I have never felt that winning with the FotM was an expression of skill. Re-rolling your race for PvP is the epitome of this absurdity for me and it really shows how little the RPG aspect is valued sometimes.

This is why this thread/the video is missing the point for me. Hybridization opened up options for character customization. The nature of how stats are distributed on gear and how scaling worked in the past was just incompatible with certain freedoms in character design. Not saying that simplification is something that I appreciate personally, but overall I felt a net-improvement with the level of satisfaction I can get from my builds. Dividing the world into "mag" and "stam" may not be so wrong, but with the way stats are tied to sets and how little real customizabilty the game offers in that regard it was definitively better to take away limitations there and open up the playing field for set and ability choices. Clearly balancing has not kept up, but the direction is right in my opinion.

tldr:
Right now we are at the point where restrictions have been removed and we perceive a lack of diversity as a consequence. We don't need to move backwards. I would rather like to see them adding more synergies and interesting interactions to make up for that and push build-diversity that way.

...and tbh, if MDW and Ele Sus are on every build, hybridization wouldn't be the first thing that I would fix...

I believe you kind of missed the point that for most players(not just hardcore ones), they want to do their best to be strong. Hybridization did not actually open up options for character customization. It opened up role play options but that is it. If you want to keep improving your character there are even less paths forward now. The overall build progression for even casuals was cut almost in half whether you like it or not. People running around with iceheart/julianos/.. in trials and vet dungeons are not the actual norm. Even casual players check out whats best every now and then. Hybridization shrunk what was considered meta by orders of magnitude.. Not increase it. For every skill like Vigor that can be used by multiple character types there were 2-3 abilities that will never get used now.

If someone decides to chase meta, then of course there aren't many choices but exactly one (maybe it's not that extreme in PvP). That's the very nature of this term and no amount of wishful thinking will ever change that.

If we take a more reasonable approach and ask for viable builds which are sufficient to successfully complete a specific task, hybridization was quite a step onwards.

Sure, there are issues with hybridization (it's unfinished and some skills are in dire need of rework to make them useful), but it's definitely not the cause of a narrowed meta.

The real question is why do some people think a copy-pasted "meta"-build they don't understand will increase their enjoyment of the game.

Its naive to think that even for casual players that thier enjoyment is not tied to player power. The stronger and better they perform has proven over and over and over again to be what drives the vast majority of players to keep playing the game. Its not an opinion. Throwing random abilities together to fit a theme but for them to not work most of the time is not fulfilling or enjoyable to anyone but the RPers.

No, it's naive to think, that more than one setup is the mathematically most efficient for any given task.

"Meta" was narrow before hybridization up to a point where whole classes were out of the question for endgame raiding. You won't do well in scorepushing, if your whole team decides to bring necro dds into the trial.

You look for maximum power? Nothing wrong with that, but don't complain about the consequences then. You'll have to wear the best equipment available according to theorycrafting instead of whatever you want to. And you'll have to bring the necessary skill to use said setup properly (which is the real issue most of the time tbh).

That's not the case only in eso but in every competitive gaming environment I know.

Tyrant_Tim

Hottytotz wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

In most RPGs that I play I like sticking to certain archetypes. I have always liked mixing spells and melee abilities. If I had to choose between "mag/stam" classes and the ability to combine skills that I actually like somewhat effectively I would always choose hybridization again.
The resource -"classes" had nothing interesting going for them. It was just that the mathematical optimum came with an additional, highly restrictive choice.
Do I think PvP is stale? A bit. Was it better before? Not a lot, if you ask me.
To be frank, I do not have a lot of respect for meta setups in roleplay games. Players forsaking all imagination/fantasy/roleplay to beat other people in an online RPG give me this "boomer on an e-bike overtaking you uphill on your regular bike" - vibe. Being good or bad as a player is something that is always separate from class or gear balancing, and I have never felt that winning with the FotM was an expression of skill. Re-rolling your race for PvP is the epitome of this absurdity for me and it really shows how little the RPG aspect is valued sometimes.

This is why this thread/the video is missing the point for me. Hybridization opened up options for character customization. The nature of how stats are distributed on gear and how scaling worked in the past was just incompatible with certain freedoms in character design. Not saying that simplification is something that I appreciate personally, but overall I felt a net-improvement with the level of satisfaction I can get from my builds. Dividing the world into "mag" and "stam" may not be so wrong, but with the way stats are tied to sets and how little real customizabilty the game offers in that regard it was definitively better to take away limitations there and open up the playing field for set and ability choices. Clearly balancing has not kept up, but the direction is right in my opinion.

tldr:
Right now we are at the point where restrictions have been removed and we perceive a lack of diversity as a consequence. We don't need to move backwards. I would rather like to see them adding more synergies and interesting interactions to make up for that and push build-diversity that way.

...and tbh, if MDW and Ele Sus are on every build, hybridization wouldn't be the first thing that I would fix...

I believe you kind of missed the point that for most players(not just hardcore ones), they want to do their best to be strong. Hybridization did not actually open up options for character customization. It opened up role play options but that is it. If you want to keep improving your character there are even less paths forward now. The overall build progression for even casuals was cut almost in half whether you like it or not. People running around with iceheart/julianos/.. in trials and vet dungeons are not the actual norm. Even casual players check out whats best every now and then. Hybridization shrunk what was considered meta by orders of magnitude.. Not increase it. For every skill like Vigor that can be used by multiple character types there were 2-3 abilities that will never get used now.

If someone decides to chase meta, then of course there aren't many choices but exactly one (maybe it's not that extreme in PvP). That's the very nature of this term and no amount of wishful thinking will ever change that.

If we take a more reasonable approach and ask for viable builds which are sufficient to successfully complete a specific task, hybridization was quite a step onwards.

Sure, there are issues with hybridization (it's unfinished and some skills are in dire need of rework to make them useful), but it's definitely not the cause of a narrowed meta.

The real question is why do some people think a copy-pasted "meta"-build they don't understand will increase their enjoyment of the game.

Throwing random abilities together to fit a theme but for them to not work most of the time is not fulfilling or enjoyable to anyone but the RPers.

Even as someone who soft RPs, like messing around trying to make a Plar tank in PvE or a lightning Sorc for PvP, it’s actually quite depressing to know that if you switch off of what should be your theme, you’re guaranteed better results.

One supporting fact to the idea that most players want to feel impactful with their build is that while the meta we have is so clear, PvP population has been in decline, and although it spikes at the end of a campaign, one cannot help but see that when players can’t be the very best versions of themselves doing what they love, they move on.

This might be running off a bit, but I feel like Oakensoul kind of helped with build diversity in PvP back when it was strong, you had so much power baked into it that even Bow builds became viable outside of ganking. Even with only one bar, it made every skill impactful enough to compete with even meta ones, and although certain builds took complete advantage of the Major Heroism, (I’m looking at you my Corrosive Vateshran BowDK) the ring helped more than hurt for diversity and theorycraft.

When I can look back to a time when certain builds were playable, and certain fantasies could be met, and try the same build today and have minimal impact with it, it’s not fun. Quite the opposite, really.

MudcrabAttack

One of the ways ZOS could help with the stale theorycrafting issue is better itemization.

The way things are going there will eventually be 21 class sets that hardly anyone would ever want to use, and would instantly get deconstructed as soon as they hit the bag. People SHOULD want to customize their class with something special that compliments their class and playstyle. So there’s no more mag and stam variety, just replace it with 3 options of skill line buffs that don’t get ignored because a better itemization system could add more variety.

Perhaps they can provide a class specific slot, like suggested by https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s7mRgcqEjZM

or allow people to combine class set items into one piece that is weakened by a certain amount,

or perhaps allow combinations of 5 piece bonuses from S-tier sets to be combined with 5 piece bonuses of bland class sets so that you can “spell craft” something new with the transmuting station (where each combination of 5 piece buff gets weakened by some amount to rein in the power creep)

Vaqual

Hottytotz wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

In most RPGs that I play I like sticking to certain archetypes. I have always liked mixing spells and melee abilities. If I had to choose between "mag/stam" classes and the ability to combine skills that I actually like somewhat effectively I would always choose hybridization again.
The resource -"classes" had nothing interesting going for them. It was just that the mathematical optimum came with an additional, highly restrictive choice.
Do I think PvP is stale? A bit. Was it better before? Not a lot, if you ask me.
To be frank, I do not have a lot of respect for meta setups in roleplay games. Players forsaking all imagination/fantasy/roleplay to beat other people in an online RPG give me this "boomer on an e-bike overtaking you uphill on your regular bike" - vibe. Being good or bad as a player is something that is always separate from class or gear balancing, and I have never felt that winning with the FotM was an expression of skill. Re-rolling your race for PvP is the epitome of this absurdity for me and it really shows how little the RPG aspect is valued sometimes.

This is why this thread/the video is missing the point for me. Hybridization opened up options for character customization. The nature of how stats are distributed on gear and how scaling worked in the past was just incompatible with certain freedoms in character design. Not saying that simplification is something that I appreciate personally, but overall I felt a net-improvement with the level of satisfaction I can get from my builds. Dividing the world into "mag" and "stam" may not be so wrong, but with the way stats are tied to sets and how little real customizabilty the game offers in that regard it was definitively better to take away limitations there and open up the playing field for set and ability choices. Clearly balancing has not kept up, but the direction is right in my opinion.

tldr:
Right now we are at the point where restrictions have been removed and we perceive a lack of diversity as a consequence. We don't need to move backwards. I would rather like to see them adding more synergies and interesting interactions to make up for that and push build-diversity that way.

...and tbh, if MDW and Ele Sus are on every build, hybridization wouldn't be the first thing that I would fix...

I believe you kind of missed the point that for most players(not just hardcore ones), they want to do their best to be strong. Hybridization did not actually open up options for character customization. It opened up role play options but that is it. If you want to keep improving your character there are even less paths forward now. The overall build progression for even casuals was cut almost in half whether you like it or not. People running around with iceheart/julianos/.. in trials and vet dungeons are not the actual norm. Even casual players check out whats best every now and then. Hybridization shrunk what was considered meta by orders of magnitude.. Not increase it. For every skill like Vigor that can be used by multiple character types there were 2-3 abilities that will never get used now.

If someone decides to chase meta, then of course there aren't many choices but exactly one (maybe it's not that extreme in PvP). That's the very nature of this term and no amount of wishful thinking will ever change that.

If we take a more reasonable approach and ask for viable builds which are sufficient to successfully complete a specific task, hybridization was quite a step onwards.

Sure, there are issues with hybridization (it's unfinished and some skills are in dire need of rework to make them useful), but it's definitely not the cause of a narrowed meta.

The real question is why do some people think a copy-pasted "meta"-build they don't understand will increase their enjoyment of the game.

Its naive to think that even for casual players that thier enjoyment is not tied to player power. The stronger and better they perform has proven over and over and over again to be what drives the vast majority of players to keep playing the game. Its not an opinion. Throwing random abilities together to fit a theme but for them to not work most of the time is not fulfilling or enjoyable to anyone but the RPers.

Nobody is disputing that, but there is a minimal degree of immersion that is required for the game to be appealing to most players. If you just care about competitive play, fast reaction times, strategy, etc., there a many genres that cater better to these needs. Historically, RPGs always had to find tradeoffs for PvP in one way or another, as the general RPG principle of character improvement to overcome challenges conflicts with the need for a capped power ceiling, which is required for MMO PvP that is not strongly compromised by grinding. Sure, some players may prefer maximum performance over personal immersion, however meaningful that objectively is, but then you could also ask the following questions:

1. How meaningful was the "diversity" offered by the resource-classes? How often did it happen that players also weighed the stam version against the mag version and simply decided to roll with the better (see countless youtube tier-videos)? How often was one of the resource-classes in the gutter while the other did well? How beneficial was this system ever? Sure there was a BiS Magblade and a BiS Stamblade in Patch XYZ, but were they equally strong? Or was one of them for the "RPers" and one spec for the real gamers?

2. How do you even justify selecting different proper classes, if immersion is just for "RPers"? How much class diversity does the game offer to someone who just wants to be "stronger and better"? Just pick the FotM class and the meta build and PvP is fun, right? That is probably not it for many players, otherwise there wouldn't be any necros in Cyrodiil right now. Class and Race matters to many, fleshing out your character is part of the fun.

Online RPGs are a bit like playing Barbie dolls, model trains, chess and boxing all at once. Some aspects appeal more to certain players, but if you are really only in it for the boxing, you might as well just go and box somewhere. So if there is a large improvement to be made in terms of immersion and character design at the cost of an arbitrary element in the balancing scaffold, then why wouldn't they make that trade. This is not about winning with an RP-build. This is about making the game a better roleplay game. PvP can be balanced better by other means.

Billium813

Braffin wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

In most RPGs that I play I like sticking to certain archetypes. I have always liked mixing spells and melee abilities. If I had to choose between "mag/stam" classes and the ability to combine skills that I actually like somewhat effectively I would always choose hybridization again.
The resource -"classes" had nothing interesting going for them. It was just that the mathematical optimum came with an additional, highly restrictive choice.
Do I think PvP is stale? A bit. Was it better before? Not a lot, if you ask me.
To be frank, I do not have a lot of respect for meta setups in roleplay games. Players forsaking all imagination/fantasy/roleplay to beat other people in an online RPG give me this "boomer on an e-bike overtaking you uphill on your regular bike" - vibe. Being good or bad as a player is something that is always separate from class or gear balancing, and I have never felt that winning with the FotM was an expression of skill. Re-rolling your race for PvP is the epitome of this absurdity for me and it really shows how little the RPG aspect is valued sometimes.

This is why this thread/the video is missing the point for me. Hybridization opened up options for character customization. The nature of how stats are distributed on gear and how scaling worked in the past was just incompatible with certain freedoms in character design. Not saying that simplification is something that I appreciate personally, but overall I felt a net-improvement with the level of satisfaction I can get from my builds. Dividing the world into "mag" and "stam" may not be so wrong, but with the way stats are tied to sets and how little real customizabilty the game offers in that regard it was definitively better to take away limitations there and open up the playing field for set and ability choices. Clearly balancing has not kept up, but the direction is right in my opinion.

tldr:
Right now we are at the point where restrictions have been removed and we perceive a lack of diversity as a consequence. We don't need to move backwards. I would rather like to see them adding more synergies and interesting interactions to make up for that and push build-diversity that way.

...and tbh, if MDW and Ele Sus are on every build, hybridization wouldn't be the first thing that I would fix...

I believe you kind of missed the point that for most players(not just hardcore ones), they want to do their best to be strong. Hybridization did not actually open up options for character customization. It opened up role play options but that is it. If you want to keep improving your character there are even less paths forward now. The overall build progression for even casuals was cut almost in half whether you like it or not. People running around with iceheart/julianos/.. in trials and vet dungeons are not the actual norm. Even casual players check out whats best every now and then. Hybridization shrunk what was considered meta by orders of magnitude.. Not increase it. For every skill like Vigor that can be used by multiple character types there were 2-3 abilities that will never get used now.

The real question is why do some people think a copy-pasted "meta"-build they don't understand will increase their enjoyment of the game.

I agree with everything you said, but googling "eso warden magicka" is always 1000x easier then understanding the nuances of ESO gameplay, evaluating all the available sets, and coming up with a unique build that is both fun and playable. It's way easier to click on a video that says "ONE BAR GOD MODE NIGHTBLADE GANKER" and then copy/pasta.

I think most players just want to be adequate at the game and it's better to overshoot that and start with the accessible META build then f around and find out. It's not exactly difficult to get META BIS sets. It takes the same amount of effort as getting any other sets. The funny thing is that there are plenty of adequate builds, they just don't show up on the streamer websites or in the top google search results.