Weakening Glyph can break the Endless Archive Bosses. Changes needs to happen.

wolfie1.0.

Heelie wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

May be it's better to fix the root of the issue (the glyph + the buff or whatever that is) instead of blindly upping all bosses' damage and ruining EA for those players that are not min/maxing, running optimal setups, or generally great at combat?

Where in this post did I ask them to increase damage, I only ask them to increase weapon and spell damage, they can then decrease the modifier accordingly, so that damage stays the same. Stop this fear mongering.

Nearly ten years of combat changes that impact everyone inorder to "fix" a subsection of the playerbases over use of certian builds begs to differ. I just want to point out that ZOS has made what should have been simple changes to sweeping arcs of nerfs over this type of thing in the past.

Four_Fingers

All this would be moot if there wasn't a dumb meaningless leader board.
If anything needs adjusted it should be the new content item causing the problem.

IZZEFlameLash

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

You don't pray you get FE EA, you do the first 3 arcs, if you have not got at least 1 of each, start over. it is not worth the slog later on.

Yeah, all these talks of nerfs on something completely dependent on RNG is frankly ridiculous. I have ran EA without even seeing single good vision before.

Wonder if these players ever tried running with only max health, resource recovery, break free resource return, block cost reduction 2% damage boost/mitigation visions showing up? Let me tell you from my experience that you don't get far with those at all.

RNG would be at the very tippy top of my nerf list. Yes luck plays far far too large a part. Considering the obsession with the leaderboards I find that odd. Shouldn't be more about skill than luck? I get RNG in ToT, it's a card game, luck is just part of that genre, but dungeons/arenas? Not so much.

Yeah, it is one of the more mind boggling decisions. Why the need for RNG on visions and verses that may end your run prematurely because of bad RNG?

Necrotech_Master

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

You don't pray you get FE EA, you do the first 3 arcs, if you have not got at least 1 of each, start over. it is not worth the slog later on.

Yeah, all these talks of nerfs on something completely dependent on RNG is frankly ridiculous. I have ran EA without even seeing single good vision before.

Wonder if these players ever tried running with only max health, resource recovery, break free resource return, block cost reduction 2% damage boost/mitigation visions showing up? Let me tell you from my experience that you don't get far with those at all.

RNG would be at the very tippy top of my nerf list. Yes luck plays far far too large a part. Considering the obsession with the leaderboards I find that odd. Shouldn't be more about skill than luck? I get RNG in ToT, it's a card game, luck is just part of that genre, but dungeons/arenas? Not so much.

Yeah, it is one of the more mind boggling decisions. Why the need for RNG on visions and verses that may end your run prematurely because of bad RNG?

thats how that type of game mode is played

like literally every "survivor" type game based on the same mechanics (endless but with scaling difficulty) is setup

you get RNG on the bonuses you pick up, some runs you do exceptional and others you dont

should even be thankful we have more than 1 life, in most of these types of games if you die at all your run is over

EdjeSwift

I actually like the RNG and believe that part of the "skill" in the EA is knowing when to reset/call it a run if you get bad RNG. You can force fights and progress, but if you're in Arc 3 and you've primarily gotten less than useful Visions, just restart before the slog gets to you.

As for the whole endless thing, I don't think of each run as endless, I think of the whole archive as endless, endless possibilities, endless books, endless fighting, just because a run ends doesn't mean the archive does.

jaws343

EdjeSwift wrote: »

I actually like the RNG and believe that part of the "skill" in the EA is knowing when to reset/call it a run if you get bad RNG. You can force fights and progress, but if you're in Arc 3 and you've primarily gotten less than useful Visions, just restart before the slog gets to you.

As for the whole endless thing, I don't think of each run as endless, I think of the whole archive as endless, endless possibilities, endless books, endless fighting, just because a run ends doesn't mean the archive does.

I somewhat agree. That the RNG is part of the skill of a run.

But, I think there is greater skill in taking what comes and trying to make the best of it.

I had a run in which I got zero focused efforts and zero attuned, but I stacked secondary visions alongside swapping to different skills to make use of those visions better, and had my best run at the time. Like 6.3.3 I think. And last night, I got exactly 1 focused efforts on the same build, and made it to 6.4.1.

Yes, had I gotten more focused efforts and more attuned, which the build is designed around, I'd have cleared ARC 6 most likely. But half the challenge was working with what was given to get as far as possible.

CGPsaint

jaws343 wrote: »

I somewhat agree. That the RNG is part of the skill of a run.

But, I think there is greater skill in taking what comes and trying to make the best of it.

I had a run in which I got zero focused efforts and zero attuned, but I stacked secondary visions alongside swapping to different skills to make use of those visions better, and had my best run at the time. Like 6.3.3 I think. And last night, I got exactly 1 focused efforts on the same build, and made it to 6.4.1.

Yes, had I gotten more focused efforts and more attuned, which the build is designed around, I'd have cleared ARC 6 most likely. But half the challenge was working with what was given to get as far as possible.

I agree to a certain extend, but I'm 100% not amused when I'm running a Magicka build and keep getting +Gold, +XP, +Pet Damage, Martial Damage, etc... and have to just keep grabbing Mag/Stam/Health Recovery or defensive Visions. Sure I'm tanky and sustain is not an issue, but you have to be able to continue building into damage as well or else it just becomes a slog trying to burn down adds that have 500K+ health each. If I don't get Penetration, Crit Chance/Damage, or something that contributes to damage by the end of the 3rd Arc, then I just quit and start over or do something else.

Necrotech_Master

CGPsaint wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I somewhat agree. That the RNG is part of the skill of a run.

But, I think there is greater skill in taking what comes and trying to make the best of it.

I had a run in which I got zero focused efforts and zero attuned, but I stacked secondary visions alongside swapping to different skills to make use of those visions better, and had my best run at the time. Like 6.3.3 I think. And last night, I got exactly 1 focused efforts on the same build, and made it to 6.4.1.

Yes, had I gotten more focused efforts and more attuned, which the build is designed around, I'd have cleared ARC 6 most likely. But half the challenge was working with what was given to get as far as possible.

I agree to a certain extend, but I'm 100% not amused when I'm running a Magicka build and keep getting +Gold, +XP, +Pet Damage, Martial Damage, etc... and have to just keep grabbing Mag/Stam/Health Recovery or defensive Visions. Sure I'm tanky and sustain is not an issue, but you have to be able to continue building into damage as well or else it just becomes a slog trying to burn down adds that have 500K+ health each. If I don't get Penetration, Crit Chance/Damage, or something that contributes to damage by the end of the 3rd Arc, then I just quit and start over or do something else.

i think at a minimum the xp/gold visions should be removed as they serve no real bonus except potentially wasting a vision option

the pet one can be ok depending on the build, since it affects anything considered a pet even if its not (such as a lot of warden skills like deep fissure is still buffed by this effect) (i dont know why they included that it has to be within 50 meters of you to get the bonus though, most of these arenas are not even 50 meters in size except maybe the tho'at fights, and add stages if your too far from where the enemies spawn it resets the wave anyway)

funny enough you actually dont need a lot of pen for this, all of the non-tho'at enemies only have 9100 armor, so a simple major+minor breach and you can entirely ignore the enemy armor for the most part, only tho'at has 18200 armor

jaws343

CGPsaint wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I somewhat agree. That the RNG is part of the skill of a run.

But, I think there is greater skill in taking what comes and trying to make the best of it.

I had a run in which I got zero focused efforts and zero attuned, but I stacked secondary visions alongside swapping to different skills to make use of those visions better, and had my best run at the time. Like 6.3.3 I think. And last night, I got exactly 1 focused efforts on the same build, and made it to 6.4.1.

Yes, had I gotten more focused efforts and more attuned, which the build is designed around, I'd have cleared ARC 6 most likely. But half the challenge was working with what was given to get as far as possible.

I agree to a certain extend, but I'm 100% not amused when I'm running a Magicka build and keep getting +Gold, +XP, +Pet Damage, Martial Damage, etc... and have to just keep grabbing Mag/Stam/Health Recovery or defensive Visions. Sure I'm tanky and sustain is not an issue, but you have to be able to continue building into damage as well or else it just becomes a slog trying to burn down adds that have 500K+ health each. If I don't get Penetration, Crit Chance/Damage, or something that contributes to damage by the end of the 3rd Arc, then I just quit and start over or do something else.

I actually think martial damage boosts are really strong in EA, even on mag focused builds. Lots of bleed damage from other visions and verses that really benefit from increases in martial damage.

Necrotech_Master

jaws343 wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I somewhat agree. That the RNG is part of the skill of a run.

But, I think there is greater skill in taking what comes and trying to make the best of it.

I had a run in which I got zero focused efforts and zero attuned, but I stacked secondary visions alongside swapping to different skills to make use of those visions better, and had my best run at the time. Like 6.3.3 I think. And last night, I got exactly 1 focused efforts on the same build, and made it to 6.4.1.

Yes, had I gotten more focused efforts and more attuned, which the build is designed around, I'd have cleared ARC 6 most likely. But half the challenge was working with what was given to get as far as possible.

I agree to a certain extend, but I'm 100% not amused when I'm running a Magicka build and keep getting +Gold, +XP, +Pet Damage, Martial Damage, etc... and have to just keep grabbing Mag/Stam/Health Recovery or defensive Visions. Sure I'm tanky and sustain is not an issue, but you have to be able to continue building into damage as well or else it just becomes a slog trying to burn down adds that have 500K+ health each. If I don't get Penetration, Crit Chance/Damage, or something that contributes to damage by the end of the 3rd Arc, then I just quit and start over or do something else.

I actually think martial damage boosts are really strong in EA, even on mag focused builds. Lots of bleed damage from other visions and verses that really benefit from increases in martial damage.

whats actually interesting is that most of the mag based visions (crit chance/dmg for magic dmg, increased magic dmg) actually is ideal on a stam arcanist because a lot of the arcanist skills are magic dmg (such as the beam and runeblades) even if it costs stamina to cast

LunaticOne_

I was on my Blade with Torugs/Heartland and got 2 visions increasing enchantment strength, but it didn't change anything on my weapon damage and weakening enchants, is that a bug or am I just being dumb? PS5, if that matters

jaws343

LunaticOne_ wrote: »

I was on my Blade with Torugs/Heartland and got 2 visions increasing enchantment strength, but it didn't change anything on my weapon damage and weakening enchants, is that a bug or am I just being dumb? PS5, if that matters

It was fixed in a patch for PC that hasn't hit console yet. So that enchantment isn't buffed by attuned yet for console.

EF321

LunaticOne_ wrote: »

I was on my Blade with Torugs/Heartland and got 2 visions increasing enchantment strength, but it didn't change anything on my weapon damage and weakening enchants, is that a bug or am I just being dumb? PS5, if that matters

Might be the case that you are still on older pre-hotfix version, these didn't work at release on PC too.

tsaescishoeshiner

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

I honestly don't think it needs a nerf, mostly because of how limited the glyph is to begin with.

... the weakening effect will only apply to one enemy at a time...

The Slottable Champion Point Perk "Cutting Defense" allows your weapon enchantment to proc onto more than one enemy. And even while blocking.

Is this true? Other weapon skills (Wall of Elements, Impulse, Blade Cloak) only proc it on one enemy as I understand. I assume Cutting Defense would proc your enchant on the first enemy you block, and then put your enchant on cooldown, right?

Can anyone confirm if Cutting Defense procs your enchant on multiple targets? Or that it doesn't? Ty!

NoSoup

The more of EA I've played since this post was first published the less and less I feel its meaningful. I've had 6 competitive runs now with each giving a new PB without a single focused efforts vision showing. While YES with the right gear and the right RNG you can really beef up the weakening glyph but that RNG is a huge factor. Based on my most recent runs I would have been far better off focusing purely on fire damage as they're the visions I'm getting most often.

Araneae6537

I think it’s okay to have a good payoff if you invest in maximizing for what visions you get. Maybe some adjustment to how enemy damage is calculated is warranted (as OP has explained, not increasing total damage at all), so that it can’t be reduced to a pittance. But I think it should be intended that people can find synergies between sets and verses and visions. It’s not like HC + Infused Weakening is at all overpowered without the Attuned vision (I tried, it was a slog, I went back to my Oakensorc, maybe I will try again with a partner to deal damage for me )

FantasticFreddie

Running a tank build, I've had decent success with running crusher enchant (with or without the vision) until arc 3, and then IF I have the vision AND my buddy got a penetration vision, I swap to weakening. It does make a difference for the thoat and marauders. I do not change my gear for this, just keep my usual tanking stuffs

HOWEVER we never have time to go beyond arc 4. So I could see especially for duo runs, 1 person really specced into damage reduction could make a big difference.

IMHO, it's a bit too rng. I don't think the vision needs to be altered, but I think a few of the others could be buffed and brought in line, either defensively or offensively.

Necrotech_Master

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Running a tank build, I've had decent success with running crusher enchant (with or without the vision) until arc 3, and then IF I have the vision AND my buddy got a penetration vision, I swap to weakening. It does make a difference for the thoat and marauders. I do not change my gear for this, just keep my usual tanking stuffs

HOWEVER we never have time to go beyond arc 4. So I could see especially for duo runs, 1 person really specced into damage reduction could make a big difference.

IMHO, it's a bit too rng. I don't think the vision needs to be altered, but I think a few of the others could be buffed and brought in line, either defensively or offensively.

just FYI you dont really need like virtually any penetration in the archive

all of the mobs only have 9100 armor, except tho'at who has 18200

major + minor breach + cp passive penetration, and your ignoring like 95% of the enemies armor except on tho'at where its closer to 50%

if your running any other armor pen (light armor, or sharpened weapons, or maces/maul) then your going to be way overpen on everything except tho'at

major + minor breach is equivalent to 8922 pen, and you get 700 pen from the cp passive, which is 9622 effective pen without anything else going on

on later arcs the problem is not pen, but just raw dmg because the enemies get so much health

arc 9 the trash mobs have 1.8 mil hp, and arc 10 they have 2.1 mil hp, so they have more hp than most world bosses

at those arcs the incoming dmg is mainly a problem from the elite mobs, bosses, and marauders (example, got the fire marauder on arc 10 and it hit my friend for 85k dmg light attack, and i missed a block/dodge and it hit me for a 35k ranged attack (i was on a tank, with pearl getting the 33% dmg reduction due to my friend being dead and at armor cap with minor protection)

Araneae6537

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Running a tank build, I've had decent success with running crusher enchant (with or without the vision) until arc 3, and then IF I have the vision AND my buddy got a penetration vision, I swap to weakening. It does make a difference for the thoat and marauders. I do not change my gear for this, just keep my usual tanking stuffs

HOWEVER we never have time to go beyond arc 4. So I could see especially for duo runs, 1 person really specced into damage reduction could make a big difference.

IMHO, it's a bit too rng. I don't think the vision needs to be altered, but I think a few of the others could be buffed and brought in line, either defensively or offensively.

just FYI you dont really need like virtually any penetration in the archive

all of the mobs only have 9100 armor, except tho'at who has 18200

major + minor breach + cp passive penetration, and your ignoring like 95% of the enemies armor except on tho'at where its closer to 50%

if your running any other armor pen (light armor, or sharpened weapons, or maces/maul) then your going to be way overpen on everything except tho'at

major + minor breach is equivalent to 8922 pen, and you get 700 pen from the cp passive, which is 9622 effective pen without anything else going on

on later arcs the problem is not pen, but just raw dmg because the enemies get so much health

arc 9 the trash mobs have 1.8 mil hp, and arc 10 they have 2.1 mil hp, so they have more hp than most world bosses

at those arcs the incoming dmg is mainly a problem from the elite mobs, bosses, and marauders (example, got the fire marauder on arc 10 and it hit my friend for 85k dmg light attack, and i missed a block/dodge and it hit me for a 35k ranged attack (i was on a tank, with pearl getting the 33% dmg reduction due to my friend being dead and at armor cap with minor protection)

On my sorc in mostly medium armor, I notice a big difference in how fast even mobs go down when I use the Lover mundus instead of the Thief. Maybe sharpened would do as well, but I hadn’t the transmutes. Anyway, I think you want at least 5k pen — more if you’re not using a destro staff.

CGPsaint

I keep several head/shoulders pieces in different weights in Crit and Penetration, as well as staves in Precise and Sharpened, and optimize based on what Visions I get. I run Elemental Susceptibility so I aim to hit the 9100 penetration mark with gear, and keep the Thief Mundus for crit chance to keep those sweet, sweet heals coming.

Treeshka

I actually got a good run with my Nightblade and managed to make all Cycle bosses hit me zero with Weakening along with Minor and Major Cowardice.

You can still die because of adds spawning during some boss fights, disrupting Weakening enchant uptime on boss. It gets a bit tricky to proc enchant on boss with Wall of Elements while adds are around. Significant damage drop for Marauders as well but they still hit hard after some point, especially Marauder Gothmau. But this strategy is not going to work properly for add phases because of enchant cooldowns. Minor and Major Cowardice do help though, which Nightblade has access and Extended Favor vision allows you to proc them for long.

For this to happen you need to have at least three stack of upgraded Attuned Enchantments Vision, so generally some layers of randomness do exist but once it happens all Cycle bosses become easy to pass in any Arc.

In my opinion this gives a unique approach to Endless Archive and should not be removed entirely but should be adjusted. Since if you reduce a Cycle one's boss weapon damage to zero it will be zero for all Arcs, resulting in zero damage for all Arcs for that specific Cycle's bosses.

RaptorRodeoGod

Maybe they should up the values of some of the other visions to bring them more in line. Better to have different things to build around than nerf the vision and make archive runs go at a snails pace.

mercer_cap

CGPsaint wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

If anything should be toned down, it would be the stacking of the visions. Maybe make them not stack to the point where it equals 100% damage reduction, but caps out at say 80% reduction instead (roughly equal to the current meta PvE tanking setups for other content).

The only Visions that I've been able to stack beyond 3 is Health/Magicka/Stamina Recovery Visions. I had a run with over 3500 Health/Magicka Recovery a few nights ago. Twas bananas.

perma dodge? xD

CGPsaint

mercer_cap wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

If anything should be toned down, it would be the stacking of the visions. Maybe make them not stack to the point where it equals 100% damage reduction, but caps out at say 80% reduction instead (roughly equal to the current meta PvE tanking setups for other content).

The only Visions that I've been able to stack beyond 3 is Health/Magicka/Stamina Recovery Visions. I had a run with over 3500 Health/Magicka Recovery a few nights ago. Twas bananas.

perma dodge? xD

Pretty much. Combined with 5 medium armor and I'm going to be rolling around like Sonic. Catch me if you can Gothmau...

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Using this logic all visions should be nerfed because eventually you can have enough of them to be completely invulnerable, see your logic does not work, let players become overpowered Gods here, if they are able to actually get to this point then they honestly deserve it.

Galeriano

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Using this logic all visions should be nerfed because eventually you can have enough of them to be completely invulnerable, see your logic does not work, let players become overpowered Gods here, if they are able to actually get to this point then they honestly deserve it.

Pretty much this. Visions and verses are designed in a way that if You have a build prepared to take adventage of them, at some point it will become OP.

You can create many combinations that in normal content would be completly broken but in EA due to its nature are fine since sooner or later You will get overwhelmed anyway.

Making a build that can squeeze as much as possible from visions and verses that You will be getting along the way seems to be the main idea behind EA progression especially in later arcs.

boi_anachronism_

Ok im gonna be honest here: this is making it sound like any player that slaps on this build can just waltz through ea to a crazy high level no problem. Thats simply not true. You gotta be a good player. Full stop. Ive gotten up to 4 stacks of focused and 4 enchant with a similar build and guess what? You can still get walloped if you miss the bash on an infuser in a late group. I see absolutely no reason to nerf it at all.

Think about this. There are 13 offensive visions for example, 12 utility. You can get up to 5 per fully, completed arc. So to max out focused efforcts and attuned enchantments for example that means you must complete a min of 2 arcs since attuned is utility and focused is offensive if you are super lucky. Ive gotten to 7.3.3 and never maxed them out. If you have the ability to get only 2 visions the chance is lower still since you could potentially get 1 defensive. With rng like it is the chances of getting it early enough are very slim plus there are others that you need to make it work like the pen one. So yeah i think its fine as is.

Theignson

In trials, long ago Torug's was a key set for tanks. That's because the tank only focused the boss, so you could have a high uptime. This is still true for 3rd stage bosses in EA, for the most part, although some have adds.

The problem with higher arcs is you not only, for example, have a marauder, but also multiple , dozens of high hP adds that can kill you.

It can be hard to make sure the weakening is up all the time on the maruader. If it drops, and only briefly, you get one shot. So this build is not really infalllible for the higher arcs.

The Magma DK build is better but even that is not exactly a cinch. If your magma drops in the higher arcs you can be toasted.