If it's an Endless Archive, then why are there threads? Please get rid of them

Sirona_Starr

Oxymoron. The end.

Sirona_Starr

Three threads mean there is a definite end, and it can be in Arc 1. So much for endless.

Braffin

Explore the Endless Archive

Venture into an eternal arena solo or with an ally where no two expeditions are the same. Contend with ever-evolving waves of monsters and boss encounters in a battle to save one of Apocrypha’s most mysterious libraries—you're limited only by your preparation, skills, and determination.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates/endlessarchive

Sirona_Starr

Braffin wrote: »

Explore the Endless Archive

Venture into an eternal arena solo or with an ally where no two expeditions are the same. Contend with ever-evolving waves of monsters and boss encounters in a battle to save one of Apocrypha’s most mysterious libraries—you're limited only by your preparation, skills, and determination.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates/endlessarchive

Nowhere do I see you are limited by three threads.

Sirona_Starr

In fact, aside from the hyperbolic limitations, the real FACT is that you are limited by three threads, or four if you get that extra perk. The word ONLY iis NOT TRUE. There are also threads. The end.

spartaxoxo

This is pretty typical of this type of content. They have lives because it would literally never end if they didn't. The endless archive is theoretically endless because it can't be beat, you'll die long before you run out of increased challenges.

Billium813

It would be irresponsible game design to allow players to repeatedly ram their incompetence into content without a forced release valve. What if players picked their Verses poorly? What if they are just stuck on a specific boss? Threads makes players reset and decompress.

RaptorRodeoGod

Billium813 wrote: »

It would be irresponsible game design to allow players to repeatedly ram their incompetence into content without a forced release valve. What if players picked their Verses poorly? What if they are just stuck on a specific boss? Threads makes players reset and decompress.

Threads also prevent you from learning mechanics because you may not see that boss again for weeks.

RMW

I mean you could leave this version be and add a 'normal' training version (more threads, no score, etc.) of EA till arc 4 to learn mechs for Throat and Marauders

AlterBlika

Billium813 wrote: »

It would be irresponsible game design to allow players to repeatedly ram their incompetence into content without a forced release valve. What if players picked their Verses poorly? What if they are just stuck on a specific boss? Threads makes players reset and decompress.

What's irresponsible there? People would quit anyway once they're bored/have to do sth irl. It's just that you don't have to start over once you die three times. Imagine that you spent there about 5 hours, died a couple of times in a silly way - would you want to spend another 5 hours to get there? I certainly wouldn't.
It even helps not-so-great players who struggle with the 1st arc. Instead of redoing the entire arc they could just master the tho'at fight.

Every other content doesn't have this silly rule. You literally can fight some bosses for a day and fail, it's all up to you

Elsonso

AlterBlika wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

It would be irresponsible game design to allow players to repeatedly ram their incompetence into content without a forced release valve. What if players picked their Verses poorly? What if they are just stuck on a specific boss? Threads makes players reset and decompress.

What's irresponsible there? People would quit anyway once they're bored/have to do sth irl. It's just that you don't have to start over once you die three times. Imagine that you spent there about 5 hours, died a couple of times in a silly way - would you want to spend another 5 hours to get there? I certainly wouldn't.

It is leader board content, and it is clearly not intended to be a test of the players' constitution. From everything I have heard, it is intended to be a test of the player's ability to stay alive in an environment of increasing difficulty. Three deaths, instead of just one, to set the leader board score.

Given unlimited attempts to get to a high leader board score, there are players that would act in excess trying to kill that one last boss. They could easily do the same on the next boss. One thousand deaths later, they could still be at it.

So, yes, it is not good for ZOS to allow unlimited attempts to kill that one last boss. Players have died playing marathon runs of games, and that could, potentially, happen here. It isn't an issue about players who would quit the run, but the players who wouldn't.

If this were just normal content with no scoring of any sort that is applied to longer runs, then my opinion is that deaths don't matter and maybe threads can be removed. How far the player gets is simply up to them and between them and the game. That said, I would advocate for a maximum time limit for those who won't stop. A large number, but a finite one. Something where the overwhelming majority of players would not notice, having given up hours earlier. Mora steps in an tells them to go take a nap and the run ends.

Treeshka

I think they should not get rid of Threads all together but reduce it to one. So it will be you die you start again.

AlterBlika

Elsonso wrote: »

Given unlimited attempts to get to a high leader board score, there are players that would act in excess trying to kill that one last boss. They could easily do the same on the next boss. One thousand deaths later, they could still be at it.

I don't mean to mess with leaderbords thing. 3 deaths and your score is set - fine. Some of us would really like to go as far as they can, caring little of scoreboards, even currency. EA might really be more challenging content than vBRP or recent vDLC dungeons to solo/duo, but instead it just became a leaderboard-only thing with an option to farm something meanwhile.

Of course with upgrades it feels much better, but I want to finish my run when I feel like it, not because I died to something stupid. EA had great potential, but I don't see it as a real solo content now

Dagoth_Rac

There are ways to preserve the integrity of the Leaderboard while still making the content more versatile and robust.

After your third wipe, your score is recorded for the Leaderboard. But ... you should be able to keep fighting to learn mechanics or just for fun because you like challenging content!

Or a Leaderboard mode that starts from Arc 1 with 3 threads, just like now, and a non-Leaderboard mode that starts from beginning of the highest Arc you have completed and has no thread limit. So, if you have made it to Arc 4 but not completed that, the non-Leaderboard mode would start you at beginning of Arc 3. If in a duo, the highest Arc that both have cleared.

Elsonso

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

There are ways to preserve the integrity of the Leaderboard while still making the content more versatile and robust.

After your third wipe, your score is recorded for the Leaderboard. But ... you should be able to keep fighting to learn mechanics or just for fun because you like challenging content!

This is also how they could handle "saving progress". The run that starts at the beginning of Arc 1, and has not used up the three threads, is saved and posted to the leader board. After the final thread is used, or with any "resumed" run, the leader board score is no longer calculated and the previous score stands.

Arizona_Steve

I don't know... I think the leader board is a problem in and of itself. I will never be good enough to match the people that run veteran hard mode trials every day, nor will I be familiar with the mechanics of the trial bosses. Since it's only the top 100 that get any goodies from the Endless Archive, what incentive is there for me to run the content, knowing that I will never make that list. Probably the same people getting stuff week after week.

Dump the 3 lives and dump the leader board.

emilyhyoyeon

We should just get rid of endless archive itself tbh

Joy_Division

It is scored content and needs a common parameter.

ArchMikem

Sirona_Starr wrote: »

Three threads mean there is a definite end, and it can be in Arc 1. So much for endless.

OP has a point.

Especially when a Marauder spawns.

Stanx

Threads make a lot more sense than the time limit in my opinion. It's currently a measure of skill vs. how much time you have available to sink into a run. Minus the time limit then it just becomes a measure of skill (how far can you get without dying 3 times). If you remove the parameter for a finite number of deaths then you would never see arc 1 ever again and the number of arcs you've reached would become irrelevant.

Just make it so you can leave the archive and come back to continue so long as you have lives (forfeiting leaderboard placement if you leave of course).

It's endless because it will keep going on and on as long as you can.

Tornaad

I'm fine with it the way it is. However I would certainly enjoy a different version, no threads and saves your progress.

Erickson9610

I think the Threads are there to keep players invested. If players truly had nothing stopping them from playing for as long as they felt like it, then players would feel burnout much quicker.

It's for the same reason we have Enlightenment in this game. You get a limited experience gain boost that regenerates once every day, so you're incentivized to either play for a shorter duration every day to use up Enlightenment as you earn it, or to play for a lot longer after a long time of saving up Enlightenment. Instead of punishing players for playing too much in one sitting, Enlightenment rewards them for playing more consistently across a longer period of time.

If the Threads were reworked to reward players for playing more consistently over a longer period of time, like how Enlightenment works, then I'd imagine players would still be able to go for as far as they'd want in a single sitting, but they'd be less incentivized to burn themselves out as quickly and thus would still be hooked on the Endless Archive's sense of progression.

It won't fix the difficulty curve ramping up so steeply (as enemies will start one-shotting you with light attacks at a certain point regardless), but at least it would allow players to keep going on a failed run — like a sandbox mode — which is a feature included in some games in the same genre as the Endless Archive.

katanagirl1

Arizona_Steve wrote: »

I don't know... I think the leader board is a problem in and of itself. I will never be good enough to match the people that run veteran hard mode trials every day, nor will I be familiar with the mechanics of the trial bosses. Since it's only the top 100 that get any goodies from the Endless Archive, what incentive is there for me to run the content, knowing that I will never make that list. Probably the same people getting stuff week after week.

Dump the 3 lives and dump the leader board.

I’m in a group that runs vet HMs and I don’t make the leaderboards. I don’t care to pick the OP classes and make a dedicated build, though. Even as a skilled player I cannot “play how I want” and be very successful.

I have too many other concerns in this game to put that much work into it, and it’s not really that important to me anyway.

AlterBlika

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I think the Threads are there to keep players invested. If players truly had nothing stopping them from playing for as long as they felt like it, then players would feel burnout much quicker.

I don't know about burnout but I certainly don't want to redo hours of content just because I died a couple of times. You're right in a way though, I like soloing hard content in this game and when I've done something I'm not touching it again for quite some time, plus I don't play often anymore. However in case of EA we have a unique vendor selling goods. Usually you don't get anything when soloing and thus aren't motivated much. Maybe it's just not my thing, if not for monster motifs I wouldn't even play EA.

Why even try later arcs if your run ends because you died, not because you hit a point where it's literally impossible to progress? I'd like to go further completely rewardless, some others would like to practice a specific boss. Win-win in my opinion, still not implemented

Sirona_Starr

Billium813 wrote: »

It would be irresponsible game design to allow players to repeatedly ram their incompetence into content without a forced release valve. What if players picked their Verses poorly? What if they are just stuck on a specific boss? Threads makes players reset and decompress.

In theory, so does real life.

Sirona_Starr

RMW wrote: »

I mean you could leave this version be and add a 'normal' training version (more threads, no score, etc.) of EA till arc 4 to learn mechs for Throat and Marauders

Why can't it just be a normal version like all the other dungeons, arenas and such. Why a training one?

Sirona_Starr

Elsonso wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

It would be irresponsible game design to allow players to repeatedly ram their incompetence into content without a forced release valve. What if players picked their Verses poorly? What if they are just stuck on a specific boss? Threads makes players reset and decompress.

What's irresponsible there? People would quit anyway once they're bored/have to do sth irl. It's just that you don't have to start over once you die three times. Imagine that you spent there about 5 hours, died a couple of times in a silly way - would you want to spend another 5 hours to get there? I certainly wouldn't.

It is leader board content, and it is clearly not intended to be a test of the players' constitution. From everything I have heard, it is intended to be a test of the player's ability to stay alive in an environment of increasing difficulty. Three deaths, instead of just one, to set the leader board score.

Given unlimited attempts to get to a high leader board score, there are players that would act in excess trying to kill that one last boss. They could easily do the same on the next boss. One thousand deaths later, they could still be at it.

So, yes, it is not good for ZOS to allow unlimited attempts to kill that one last boss. Players have died playing marathon runs of games, and that could, potentially, happen here. It isn't an issue about players who would quit the run, but the players who wouldn't.

If this were just normal content with no scoring of any sort that is applied to longer runs, then my opinion is that deaths don't matter and maybe threads can be removed. How far the player gets is simply up to them and between them and the game. That said, I would advocate for a maximum time limit for those who won't stop. A large number, but a finite one. Something where the overwhelming majority of players would not notice, having given up hours earlier. Mora steps in an tells them to go take a nap and the run ends.

Then do two versions for those who care about leaderrboards, and those who do not. I could care less about leaderboards

Sirona_Starr

Joy_Division wrote: »

It is scored content and needs a common parameter.

Pretty sure there are leaderboards for other arenas and such. Yet, there are not threads.

Sirona_Starr

Stanx wrote: »

Threads make a lot more sense than the time limit in my opinion. It's currently a measure of skill vs. how much time you have available to sink into a run. Minus the time limit then it just becomes a measure of skill (how far can you get without dying 3 times). If you remove the parameter for a finite number of deaths then you would never see arc 1 ever again and the number of arcs you've reached would become irrelevant.

Just make it so you can leave the archive and come back to continue so long as you have lives (forfeiting leaderboard placement if you leave of course).

It's endless because it will keep going on and on as long as you can.

Or, they could get rid of threads, and people play and keep trying bosses to learn mechanics. When you leave the archive it starts again. So you would see Arc 1 every time you re-enter it. The game will kick you sooner or later if you just log off and leave the archive. Again, the threads do not make any real sense, and definitely mean it is NOT endless.

Sirona_Starr

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I think the Threads are there to keep players invested. If players truly had nothing stopping them from playing for as long as they felt like it, then players would feel burnout much quicker.

It's for the same reason we have Enlightenment in this game. You get a limited experience gain boost that regenerates once every day, so you're incentivized to either play for a shorter duration every day to use up Enlightenment as you earn it, or to play for a lot longer after a long time of saving up Enlightenment. Instead of punishing players for playing too much in one sitting, Enlightenment rewards them for playing more consistently across a longer period of time.

If the Threads were reworked to reward players for playing more consistently over a longer period of time, like how Enlightenment works, then I'd imagine players would still be able to go for as far as they'd want in a single sitting, but they'd be less incentivized to burn themselves out as quickly and thus would still be hooked on the Endless Archive's sense of progression.

It won't fix the difficulty curve ramping up so steeply (as enemies will start one-shotting you with light attacks at a certain point regardless), but at least it would allow players to keep going on a failed run — like a sandbox mode — which is a feature included in some games in the same genre as the Endless Archive.

Well, you get high enough and you can use up enlightenment just crafting. I do not see a valid comparison between enlightenment and threads. The real comparison would be you use up enlightenement and your game time is done

Erickson9610

Sirona_Starr wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I think the Threads are there to keep players invested. If players truly had nothing stopping them from playing for as long as they felt like it, then players would feel burnout much quicker.

It's for the same reason we have Enlightenment in this game. You get a limited experience gain boost that regenerates once every day, so you're incentivized to either play for a shorter duration every day to use up Enlightenment as you earn it, or to play for a lot longer after a long time of saving up Enlightenment. Instead of punishing players for playing too much in one sitting, Enlightenment rewards them for playing more consistently across a longer period of time.

If the Threads were reworked to reward players for playing more consistently over a longer period of time, like how Enlightenment works, then I'd imagine players would still be able to go for as far as they'd want in a single sitting, but they'd be less incentivized to burn themselves out as quickly and thus would still be hooked on the Endless Archive's sense of progression.

It won't fix the difficulty curve ramping up so steeply (as enemies will start one-shotting you with light attacks at a certain point regardless), but at least it would allow players to keep going on a failed run — like a sandbox mode — which is a feature included in some games in the same genre as the Endless Archive.

Well, you get high enough and you can use up enlightenment just crafting. I do not see a valid comparison between enlightenment and threads. The real comparison would be you use up enlightenement and your game time is done

The comparison between Enlightenment and Threads is in how they're designed to incentivize the player to play.


Enlightenment rewards the player for not playing too much at one time; the alternative would be to punish the player for playing too much at one time. For example, Enlightenment increases your experience gain once every day, but the alternative would be where your experience gain is reduced after earning too much in one day.

Actually, both alternatives are the exact same — if you consider being Enlightened to be the default state, then using it all up means your experience gain is nerfed. It's all about rephrasing the mechanic to sound like a boon, rather than a punishment.


Meanwhile, Threads punish the player for playing too much of the Endless Archive at one time (by resetting their progress when they reach their limit within it), whereas the alternative would be to reward the player for not playing too much of the Endless Archive at one time.

An example of how the alternative version of Threads might be phrased would assume that the player gets to have no progress in the Endless Archive until they pick up Threads. So, it would be beneficial to reward additional Threads to encourage progress, than it would be to offer all of the Threads up front to limit progress.


In short, Enlightenment is to experience nerf what Threads are to progress nerf, and Enlightenment is to experience gain what Threads are to progress gain. It just matters how you look at it.