Templar Light Weaver

Billium813

I'm trying to get some data on tracking the average uptime of the Templar Light Weaver buff, but I can't quite seem to find it in my combat log for Combat Metrics. Can anyone else verify that it doesn't show? Anyone else have experience with the uptime on this passive? I suspect it doesn't proc as often as people might think, but without combat logs, its really hard to validate this since it doesn't even give ME Ultimate!

YandereGirlfriend

It definitely doesn't proc as often as people likely think that it does.

It really ought to be buffed as the ult-gen over time vs. most other class passives lags far behind.

Billium813

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It definitely doesn't proc as often as people likely think that it does.

It really ought to be buffed as the ult-gen over time vs. most other class passives lags far behind.

Ya, that was kind of what I wanted to check out.

I was talking with someone and they kept bringing up that Templar has a unique Ult generation, which is a "good group buff". However, I have my suspicion that this ever even procs ONCE in most situations. If you're a decent Healer, a vast majority of the time your allies won't dip under 50% to begin with. And if they do, then you're probably bursting with Combat Prayer anyway.

Which brings up another point... it HAS to be a Restoring Light heal, so any Restoration Staff heal actually work against it! If the heal happens to be Grand Healing, Regeneration, or Combat Prayer, you get nothing... you're really just hoping that Cleansing Ritual gets a lucky proc! And for what? 2 lousy Ultimate?

WrathOfInnos

You can see it in logs when looking at ultimate under resources. https://www.esologs.com/reports/KCRb2vnwcgpZNjL3#fight=19&type=resources&spell=102&source=10

It is a terrible passive, and almost never has any impact. It would need to be a very long fight for those 2 ult procs to add up to an extra cast of even the cheapest ultimate ability.

I did manage to find one instance where a Necro got enough ultimate for 1 extra Colossus over a 9:25 fight, but this is definitely an outlier. I’m guessing they had to spend a lot of time under 50% health and inside of Ritual, in addition to some lucky ticks, since the rest of the group did not get anywhere near this much ult from Lightweaver. https://www.esologs.com/reports/w7QKAbnaLX1ycrkT#fight=25&type=resources&spell=102&source=6199

Billium813

It feels like something weird is happening with this passive.

I did a run of normal Crypt of Hearts 1. For this run, I watched everyone like a hawk and no one ever went below 50%. I was a really bad healer too and ONLY used Combat Prayer and Extended Ritual for heals. SOMEHOW, everyone generated hundreds of Ultimate from Light Weaver over the course of the dungeon?!?!

https://www.esologs.com/reports/dM6t2Z9W14rgp8KL#boss=-3&difficulty=0&type=resources&spell=102

Billium813

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

You can see it in logs when looking at ultimate under resources. https://www.esologs.com/reports/KCRb2vnwcgpZNjL3#fight=19&type=resources&spell=102&source=10

It is a terrible passive, and almost never has any impact. It would need to be a very long fight for those 2 ult procs to add up to an extra cast of even the cheapest ultimate ability.

I did manage to find one instance where a Necro got enough ultimate for 1 extra Colossus over a 9:25 fight, but this is definitely an outlier. I’m guessing they had to spend a lot of time under 50% health and inside of Ritual, in addition to some lucky ticks, since the rest of the group did not get anywhere near this much ult from Lightweaver. https://www.esologs.com/reports/w7QKAbnaLX1ycrkT#fight=25&type=resources&spell=102&source=6199

These logs are bizarre... Looking at the logs you posted:



It looks like the health only dipped 3 times below 50%: (2:52, 5:53, and 9:04). Except, the logs are showing that Light Weaver is procing at times independent of those dips.



Why is "Light Weaver Ultimate" procing at 1:12?? And it's procing MULTIPLE times before and after that too, seemingly independent of the players health.

WrathOfInnos

That is odd. Those are both just random public logs that had a Temple healer. I looked at Ansuul HM because people are going to drop below 50% with some of the mechanics in there. Not sure why one group has many lightweaver procs and the other has few.

Either way, I wouldn’t say the small amount of ult gen justifies a Templar healer. Purify is nice, Minor Sorcery is nice, and Shards can be helpful, but a Templar DPS can provide all of these with no downside. For healers, Warden, Arcanist, and Nightblade provide more group utility. Even Necromancer and Sorcerer healers bring more to a group IMO.

Billium813

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

That is odd. Those are both just random public logs that had a Temple healer. I looked at Ansuul HM because people are going to drop below 50% with some of the mechanics in there. Not sure why one group has many lightweaver procs and the other has few.

Either way, I wouldn’t say the small amount of ult gen justifies a Templar healer. Purify is nice, Minor Sorcery is nice, and Shards can be helpful, but a Templar DPS can provide all of these with no downside. For healers, Warden, Arcanist, and Nightblade provide more group utility. Even Necromancer and Sorcerer healers bring more to a group IMO.

Oh, I don't disagree with you at all. Templar Healer Skills focuses way too much on PURE heals, with very little debuffs or group buffs. Pure heals are such a 2014 design at this point. Restoring Light is severely lacking in any redeeming benefits. The passives are mostly garbage 2014 design too with 2/4 seemingly 100% dead. I was just testing Light Weaver to verify what I assumed was trash uptime...

I'v been running a bunch of dungeon runs today and looking at logs. From all my investigating, I've determined one thing: Light Weaver does NOT work the way it says in the game. Player health seems to have NO impact on when it procs. In fact, I can't seem to determine how it even works or what the real conditions are! Sometimes, it gives a player 10 Ult over a dungeon run, sometimes it seems to give 300+ Ult! Completely independent of the players health. I'm honestly totally at a loss here.

I think Ult generation could be a nice place to start building Templar support buffs back. I think as it is, Light Weaver is, on average, a bit lower then it should be, but it actually seems to be better then the description would indicate!! It makes me NOT want ZOS to fix it since it would make Templar Healer even worse at this point.

Erickson9610

I've confirmed that this affects Companions as well. There is no Health% requirement — simply heal or overheal an ally with a Restoring Light ability, like Extended Ritual, and they will gain 2 Ultimate every heal tick. It does not affect yourself.

Billium813

Yeah... Light Weaver is broken...

You don't need to be in combat, or take damage at all



And, it stacks. Each instance of Cleansing Ritual also adds +2 Ult per 2 seconds.


NOTE: Other Restoring Light heals also proc Light Weaver and make more Ult... but if you spam them too quickly per person, the game breaks and Light Weaver stops working all together until the player ports.

I'm kinda loathe to report this as a bug TBH. I'd rather the passive description just be adjusted to match the current behavior. The stacking behavior is rather strong though. I think if there was a Trial team with all Templar, running Extended Ritual, they'd be able to drop Nova every 22 seconds on Light Weaver gen alone... Of course, no one would ever find this out cause Templars aren't allowed in Trials atm...

Necrotech_Master

i use my templar in trials all the time lol, but as a dps, not a healer lol (i do use extended ritual though for some extra heals, i dont use any other templar heals except the rune which is self only)

casparian

Back in the day (and I mean over half a decade ago), you could be a perfectly viable healer with only Templar abilities. That was its unique niche as a healing class: while all classes had access to healing through various skill lines, only Templars could be healers without relying on out-of-class abilities. If you dig deep enough on this forum and on reddit, you can find people complaining about how it was the end of Templar as a class when that started to change.

ZOS long ago abandoned that design philosophy, but for some reason they've left a few vestiges of it here and there. This passive is one of them: it made good sense when you were healing with Templar abilities more or less whenever you healed anything. Nowadays it's a nonsense ability that doesn't fit how the game is actually played.

With all their access to game data, I have no idea why they haven't noticed and fixed this. Maybe they aren't as data-driven in their class changes as we think.

Billium813

Honestly, I'm enjoying Templar Tank and Healer even more now that I understand how Light Weaver really works. It's like this little mini game having to run around and make sure all of my allies are standing in my Extended Ritual as much as possible. Leaving it in positions for DPS to stand in and relying more on my Rune Focus heal instead.

For Support roles, I think that should be the basic design: creating these mini-games for the Support to focus on. It doesn't just have to be stat boosting proc sets (Powerful Assault, Turning Tide, Nazaray, ect). It's fun when you figure out the little mini-games within the content (like Void Bash + Radiant Ward). Now I have this little Extended Ritual game where I can VISUALLY see when my allies are gaining Ult from me cause they have to stand in it! And I get a good feeling when my group members comment on how often they get to drop Ults and how fast its ticking.

YandereGirlfriend

Billium813 wrote: »

Yeah... Light Weaver is broken...

You don't need to be in combat, or take damage at all



And, it stacks. Each instance of Cleansing Ritual also adds +2 Ult per 2 seconds.


NOTE: Other Restoring Light heals also proc Light Weaver and make more Ult... but if you spam them too quickly per person, the game breaks and Light Weaver stops working all together until the player ports.

I'm kinda loathe to report this as a bug TBH. I'd rather the passive description just be adjusted to match the current behavior. The stacking behavior is rather strong though. I think if there was a Trial team with all Templar, running Extended Ritual, they'd be able to drop Nova every 22 seconds on Light Weaver gen alone... Of course, no one would ever find this out cause Templars aren't allowed in Trials atm...

I tried testing this this evening with some friends and we had similar results to yours.

Casting basically any other Restoring Light skill (e.g. Hasty Prayer, Incantation) would break the passive in odd ways, disabling it for others and sometimes even enabling it for self-ultgen, which made no sense whatsoever. This passive is absolutely busted at the moment.

We also tried stacking Templars and Extended Rituals and found that the ultgen definitely did stack between casters... but at a certain point the passive would still break and disable it for some of them. I couldn't determine any particular reason for this behavior.

I would love to use this passive but the breaking behavior is so flaky it is hard to rely upon.

Billium813

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Yeah... Light Weaver is broken...

You don't need to be in combat, or take damage at all



And, it stacks. Each instance of Cleansing Ritual also adds +2 Ult per 2 seconds.


NOTE: Other Restoring Light heals also proc Light Weaver and make more Ult... but if you spam them too quickly per person, the game breaks and Light Weaver stops working all together until the player ports.

I'm kinda loathe to report this as a bug TBH. I'd rather the passive description just be adjusted to match the current behavior. The stacking behavior is rather strong though. I think if there was a Trial team with all Templar, running Extended Ritual, they'd be able to drop Nova every 22 seconds on Light Weaver gen alone... Of course, no one would ever find this out cause Templars aren't allowed in Trials atm...

We also tried stacking Templars and Extended Rituals and found that the ultgen definitely did stack between casters... but at a certain point the passive would still break and disable it for some of them. I couldn't determine any particular reason for this behavior.

I would love to use this passive but the breaking behavior is so flaky it is hard to rely upon.

Yes, the passive does break after a certain point. It seems like it breaks if the passive ticks faster then expected, or if the passive ticks overlap. It seems that 2 Extended Rituals seems to be consistent and not breaking as long as no other Restoring Light Skills are used. But any more rituals, or excessive use of Restoring Light Skills, does break it.



After looking at a bunch of dungeon logs, I find that Healer + Tank both using Extended Ritual doesn't break the passive and gives really good returns to the DPS.

Necrotech_Master

it looks like it likely stops working when you have 2 templar abilities trigger this passive at nearly the same time

extended ritual itself only ticks every 2 seconds, which is why it probably can overlap some because of the big gap between heal ticks

where if you have extended ritual and then at the same time spamming breath of life, there is a high chance that 2 of those heal ticks happen at the same time

the part that seems the most broken is that its restoring ultimate to people who are not under 50% hp, as that is part of its condition to grant ultimate lol

maybe that is why it appears to "break" because it finally realizes the target is above 50% health lol

Billium813

awwwww, they stealth fixed this issue in v9.2.6! Now Light Weaver is back to doing NOTHING and is basically a dead passive again... Plus, my Templar Tank is back to giving almost nothing to the group. Sadness.

I'v been using this (exploit?) a lot since I found it and reviewing the logs and I honestly don't think it was OP. I can see situations where multiples could be too strong in coordinated groups, but it was a really fun mechanic of trying to get people to stand in the dang circle!!

Before the fix, it was generating, on average, about 350 Ult per group mate (not me though) over the span of an entire Dungeon. That's with me hawkishly making sure an Extended Ritual is down, and that my group is standing in it, even at the expense of ME being in it (for Tank). It was a fun mini game that's now gone.

Now, I'v been running a couple dungeons, even harder Vet ones with scrubs, and it barely ever cracks 4 Ultimate on any one player! The 50% Health restriction is just too low and the reward is pathetic! Prism passive is generating ~150 Ult for me per Dungeon, but that's really just a bonus since I'm focusing more on Illuminate and NOT Prism.

Light Weaver is dead again. Master Ritualist is trash. Please ZOS, bring this bug back. Make it so it doesn't stack, make it so it doesnt proc outside of combat. But please, just bring it back.

YandereGirlfriend

Billium813 wrote: »

awwwww, they stealth fixed this issue in v9.2.6! Now Light Weaver is back to doing NOTHING and is basically a dead passive again... Plus, my Templar Tank is back to giving almost nothing to the group. Sadness.

I'v been using this (exploit?) a lot since I found it and reviewing the logs and I honestly don't think it was OP. I can see situations where multiples could be too strong in coordinated groups, but it was a really fun mechanic of trying to get people to stand in the dang circle!!

Before the fix, it was generating, on average, about 350 Ult per group mate (not me though) over the span of an entire Dungeon. That's with me hawkishly making sure an Extended Ritual is down, and that my group is standing in it, even at the expense of ME being in it (for Tank). It was a fun mini game that's now gone.

Now, I'v been running a couple dungeons, even harder Vet ones with scrubs, and it barely ever cracks 4 Ultimate on any one player! The 50% Health restriction is just too low and the reward is pathetic! Prism passive is generating ~150 Ult for me per Dungeon, but that's really just a bonus since I'm focusing more on Illuminate and NOT Prism.

Light Weaver is dead again. Master Ritualist is trash. Please ZOS, bring this bug back. Make it so it doesn't stack, make it so it doesnt proc outside of combat. But please, just bring it back.

1000% agree with you here. The passive, as long as it obeys its tooltip wording, is literally useless in all content. The bug was the only thing making it interesting in any way. Your suggestion should make it straight into the next patch.

Billium813

My recommended fix:

Light Weaver (Passive)

While in combat, whenever you heal an ally with a Restoring Light ability, you grant them 2 Ultimate every 2 seconds for 6 seconds.

Developer Note

As written, the condition of needing an ally to drop below 50% is far too harsh for the mediocre profit of 2 Ultimate. Also, dropping the special Rite of Passage interaction since it doesn't make any sense for this to be on a passive instead of just ON the Ultimate ability to begin with.

For this passive, I wanted to create something that would work for all the skills in the Restoring Light Skill line. Restoring Light heals tend to be for large, one time burst heals: Repentance absorbing 10 corpses, Rushed Ceremony and Healing Ritual often being for over 10k health in one go. Even Rite of Passage tends to drop large heals that give no real benefit for overhealing by such a large margin. This design also works well with Cleansing Ritual as an AOE HOT. While the ally is in the Cleansing Ritual, they receive Ult generation as the timer auto updates on each 2 second heal if the ally is taking damage. If the enemy leaves the circle, then the timer can just run out and stop. This helps give a balance of returns between the expensive one time heals, and allies standing in the long duration AOE Extended Ritual.

Additionally, notice that this design does not proc off overhealing. The ally needs to take damage and then be healed by a Restoring Light Skill. This can help increase the skill ceiling on this design since it doesn't reward allies just standing out of danger at range. It rewards allies that get in there and take damage, at least once per 6 seconds. On top of that, it incentivizes Templar Healers to spec more into Restoring Light Skills and less into generic skills. It gives them a REASON to make sure it's a Restoring Light Skill doing the healing.