Class Sets: Sorc and Templar changes miss the mark. DK and NB have potential bc/ of their design.

Joy_Division

I’ve been away from the game for about two years, but (initially) heard some good things about update 40, so I decided to poke around and take a look. There is potential here, but I don’t think it’s getting realized.

Freeze on Combat Changes:.
I never felt the communication regarding the constant combat changes were fully understood. What the complaints were directed at were the radical nature that totally changed existing systems and resulted in major shifts between two points on a wide spectrum (e.g., DoTs being incredibly strong and then the next patch being conspicuously weak). Most of the feedback did not ask to stop attempts at balance changes, rather take a more subtle and gradual approach, that is a scalpel as opposed to a hammer.

Endless Archive:

• Armory Assistant. It’s not timed, so disallowing the assistant is unnecessarily time-consuming.
• “Trash” pulls: the problem is that the way ESO does them is that they aren’t that interesting. In other fantasy games I play, non-boss encounters are still stimulating, challenging, place a demand on a build’s versatility, and provide rewards for completion. While ESO’s mobs once had these elements, they are now just a time-sink that do not threaten optimized builds and provide no benefits/rewards for clearing them.
• Find a way once we demonstrate mastery (e.g., number of completions, finishing under a time while killing everything, et al.), make it so there is a way to skip the easier arcs (understanding that we would also forfeit potential rewards).
• Mobs should have a chance to drop satchels for stuff we genuinely want (e.g., columbine, raw mats, house blueprints, a piece of ancient dwemer technology that once I get 50, I can assemble the Burning Spellweave Infero Staff I still have never managed to get).

The Class Sets:
I feel these are mostly missing the mark. This is unfortunate as we have long waited for something tied to our classes. They are supposed to be a highlight for the DLC, but most just aren’t.

The sets are based on only a subset of class skills – many of which are mediocre – and they require a valuable 5-piece bonus just to (mostly) add a modifier to said mediocre skills at the opportunity cost of losing that valuable 5-piece bonus for all your other skills (which are usually better). When I first heard about them, I thought they would finally give us the opportunity to revisit little used skills by enhancing them and making our class do something unique. But that’s not what they do, for the most part.

One of my favorite classes to play (or at least used to) is magicka sorcerer. The Monolith of Storms set does not benefit the two skills I actually use most from that line (Streak, Critical Surge). The set wants me to use a suboptimal skill (Lightning Flood) in place of a pet that is superior at parsing, as well as another mediocre skill that many sorcerers haven’t used since 2015 (Fury), which even if slotted would not be used for 80% of the fight, making it awkward to use with the set. Why would I sacrifice 5 armor bonuses that would be more efficiently served buffing better performing skills?

The proposed fix is characteristic why I think these sets just aren’t exciting. The dev comments aimed to increase its damage, but is that really making the set interesting, exciting, or enhancing the play style of a sorcerer? No, it’s just a proc set, and one that is kind of boring: some minor damage in between totems that are awkward to place. The only possible reason to use it is if it somehow does more DPS than everything else in the game. It does nothing for PvP, does nothing to help groupmates, does not provide anything situationally unique, does not make the actual lightning skills better, does not change the way a sorcerer would play the game. It’s just a line on a parse log, inevitably to be replaced when something better comes along, assuming the fixes can reliably deal competitive damage in the first place. The set isn’t much different that the dozens of other generic small proc damage to an area. I don't think this set is salvageable. I'd totally rethink it for a future update.

The other class I once spent a lot of time playing is Templar. The Wrathsun set does seem more interesting in that it does something unique (proc an ultimate), but there are quite a few hoops here. 50 or 40 procs isn’t the issue. Because I need so many procs, the set really wants me to slot Solar Barrage (I guess we are just giving up on the Dark Flare morph) and Reflective Light (a poor skill) to get procs, so that Nova drop is going to be more random than strategic. Also, for the 10 second damage bonus that blows half your magicka, most of the time you aren’t going to get much of a damage bonus because Dawn’s Wrath skills are not spammable worthy except Jesus Beam at low health targets. We all know what’s going to happen: some random skeleton will get hit with a residual barrage/reflective light proc and foil your master plan for carefully monitoring when to precisely use that 40th stack. Also, the 10 second window before losing stacks is quite punitive, considering the numerous instances where we have to wait until enemies spawn (think the narrations in DSA or time in-between waves in Maelstrom).

I would have preferred the set make these skills more interesting to use, such as remove the cast time from Dark Flare or alter Sun Fire to make it a semi-spammable skill to take advantage of that 10 second window. At the least, the set needs to allow the player to control when and where the Nova drops. That would help. A big problem is that Nova on its own is a seriously outdated ultimate that requires another person to maximize its potential because of the Crush Synergy (meanwhile, Dragonknights still want to use Banner even without Shackle). 8 seconds for a 250 ultimate that hardly gets any competitive play, are we sure that’s not a typo? Once the player has the 40 stacks, they should get a free Nova cast (their actual ultimate value would not change). That makes the set’s primary boon strategic rather than random.

As a side note, the change that makes DoTs tick every two seconds is undermining the potential for some of these sets.

The Basalt-Blooded Warrior for Dragonknights is the most elegant design because it does not actually require you to slot or use many (potentially mediocre) skills, instead only requiring you to slot one and thus can activate its special power immediately. That the benefit goes beyond just extra damage and providing bonuses that are either unavailable or hard to get makes the set at least something I’d want to theorycraft. If Monolith of Storms doesn’t parse better than X set, Monolith of Storms won’t be used because it provides nothing else. I’m not going to use that DK set for parsing, but it does synergize with a unique feature in the class kit and I can certainly find other uses for it.

I rarely play Nightblades, so take this for what it's worth. The Soulcleaver set does something the others don’t, which makes it appealing: actually make all the skills (including the ultimate) in the siphoning line better. It would have been nice if it were more than just a modifier. Still, the set would be something I’d want to try as enhancing abilities opens the door to potential builds.

I don’t play support Warden or Necro tank or any Arcanist so I cannot comment on those sets.

My suggestion for future sets is to actually improve the skills in the first place or follow the DK model in synergizing something that defines the class. After all, you are forfeiting armor bonuses for every other skill, it should make the ones you are investing in noticeably better. An alternative approach would be to make these class sets three-piece bonuses and take some of the burden of that investment (aside from making theorycrafting more interesting and again adding variety to the game).

There is a lot of potential with these class sets and it would be nice if that potential was explored more.

James-Wayne

Didn't know you had left Joy but I always appreciated your feedback in the forums here so thanks for coming back and providing some feedback for Update 40, agree with the above.

Always ran a Templar myself as my primary and it would be nice to have some more QoL changes for the class, mainly making the most of the skills that dont get used. Would love some proper Tanking abilities like other classes.

Talonlord

While I largely agree, I would like to offer a different perspective on sets depending on specific skillls.
I think that by itself, a set relying on skills that you otherwise might not be running has strong potential as a good thing rather than a bad thing, as this increases build variety if the reward justifies the investment of both the different skill setup and a 5-piece set, something Sorc and Templar sets seemingly don't, and if it doesn't rely on one specific skill to like Monolith of Storms where Lightning Splash is pretty much your only option due to the nature of the rest of that skill line.
The downside I see to the DK set only requiring any single cast from its skill line every 10 seconds is that it doesn't really influence the way you play the class, although that particular example does compensate through having a more unique effect.

Basically I would've loved Monolith of Storms if it would've actually given me a good reason to run more lightning skills instead of just going pet-sorc as usual.

ZhuJiuyin

I believe that most sorcerers (at least in PVE) would like to replace popular sets such as Whorl of the Depths and Pillar of Nirn with Monolith of Storms, and emphasize the sorcerer's identity as the caller of Storm.

But since Monolith of Storms is actually pretty bad, it leaves sorcerers very disappointed. According to published tests, Monolith of Storms still does less damage than Nirn, or even Venomous Smite. And let's not forget that neither Nirn nor Venomous Smite benefit from Energized.

So, unless Monolith of Storms improves its damage parameters, there is no reason to abandon Nirn in PVE. Not to mention the poor proc conditions of Monolith of Storms, making this set more difficult to work.

What's more, Monolith of Storms has "no any changes" since the PTS.
In addition to fixing bugs, Monolith of Storms has received absolutely 0 changes!

katorga

The DK set is a functional, multi-use set, and can be used to enhance different builds. It is simple, and relatively bug-proof and won't put too much load on the servers because it really just self-buffs the player.

NB set looks interesting, but have not tested it. But like the DK set, it seems like one you can build around.

The Sorcerer set is a low-damage proc set, using the worst mechanic ZOS has, tethers. It is complicated, will have a lot of positioning, LOS, and environmental bugs. It will create a lot of load on servers. The set starts out providing less damage than existing proc sets so there is no point in bothering to get it.

I can't figure out what the Necro set does. But doesn't matter, the class is still ruined.

None of the class sets look appealing enough though grind through scripted, monotonous content 40-50 times. That was not the case with Maelstrom and Dragonstar Arena sets.

gariondavey

I remember always reading your forum posts but didn't realize it's already been 2 years you've been gone.
Great post.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

I am about to start my break as of this update, Joy. I am going to keep an eye on the forums for meaningful changes… but U40 is a huge let down.

They aren’t listening to their loyal players. It feels like they are looking at how to attract as many new players as possible without attempting to keep long term users.

Necrotech_Master

im excited for the upcoming content, but i would agree that many of these class sets are generally too gimmicky

the monolith of storms i dont see why it couldnt proc a monolith on every instance of dmg if the dmg is sub par

i kind of wish the 5th bonus acted more like an arena weapon but for a class skill + passive or something along those lines where it adds to or alters an effect

most all of the class sets kind of fit this bill pretty good, the sorc one would, if the proc condition wasnt so bizarre and the dmg application was better

my suggested changes for monolith to improve it:

-change proc conditions to any instance of dmg, not just initial hit or 5th tick
-increase the dmg tick rate to at least 1 tick per second
-either increase the dmg by some amount, or allow the target to get dmg from multiple monolith tethers (if its being hit by multiple tethers subsequent dmg could be reduced by a certain amount so it increases but not exponentially)

Tyrant_Tim

Even at 40 stacks, the Templar set fails to hit the mark, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that when you add 25% to a small number it’s still a small number.

You have a 10s uptime on your increase to damage, and the only ability that you can slot to benefit from the 25% in any significant way is Power of the Light… an ability with 6s required to explode. Meaning you will have to perfectly time your ability to hope for the chance to have two explosions within that window.

This has been mentioned, but if you weren’t required to run Solar Barrage to build stacks, Dark Flare would be interesting with this set.

Now for this set to truly shine, one of two things need to be done, the stacks need to be reduced by another 15 landing at a 25 stack requirement and there needs to be a 1 stack per-second limitation, or Vampire’s Bane needs to tick every second at the current 40 stacks.

Regardless of either option, we need to have control over where the Nova lands and that can be accomplished by getting a buff after our stacks are filled that lasts 5 seconds, empowering our next not-fully charged heavy attack to begin our 25% + Nova trade. Our timer for that 25% should start when we activate the Nova if we’re sacrificing half of our magicka.

Tannus15

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

im excited for the upcoming content, but i would agree that many of these class sets are generally too gimmicky

the monolith of storms i dont see why it couldnt proc a monolith on every instance of dmg if the dmg is sub par

i kind of wish the 5th bonus acted more like an arena weapon but for a class skill + passive or something along those lines where it adds to or alters an effect

most all of the class sets kind of fit this bill pretty good, the sorc one would, if the proc condition wasnt so bizarre and the dmg application was better

my suggested changes for monolith to improve it:

-change proc conditions to any instance of dmg, not just initial hit or 5th tick
-increase the dmg tick rate to at least 1 tick per second
-either increase the dmg by some amount, or allow the target to get dmg from multiple monolith tethers (if its being hit by multiple tethers subsequent dmg could be reduced by a certain amount so it increases but not exponentially)

one of the most important changes required for this set is over looked.
The pylons should not be able to spawn within 5 meters of another pylon.

this is all too common with this set:



I did a full parse and only damaged a single target skelly with monolith.
right now it's a single target set cosplaying as an AOE set.

Tannus15

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Even at 40 stacks, the Templar set fails to hit the mark, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that when you add 25% to a small number it’s still a small number.

You have a 10s uptime on your increase to damage, and the only ability that you can slot to benefit from the 25% in any significant way is Power of the Light… an ability with 6s required to explode. Meaning you will have to perfectly time your ability to hope for the chance to have two explosions within that window.

This has been mentioned, but if you weren’t required to run Solar Barrage to build stacks, Dark Flare would be interesting with this set.

Now for this set to truly shine, one of two things need to be done, the stacks need to be reduced by another 15 landing at a 25 stack requirement and there needs to be a 1 stack per-second limitation, or Vampire’s Bane needs to tick every second at the current 40 stacks.

Regardless of either option, we need to have control over where the Nova lands and that can be accomplished by getting a buff after our stacks are filled that lasts 5 seconds, empowering our next not-fully charged heavy attack to begin our 25% + Nova trade. Our timer for that 25% should start when we activate the Nova if we’re sacrificing half of our magicka.

i had a play with this last night and for PvE it's honestly a decent set that really shines in execute. once you start beaming the stacks come in fast and +25% beam hits like a truck.

that said, the magicka cost is terrible and needs to be either removed or toned back. the magicka regen doesn't feel impactful either as by the time you've got a bunch of stacks you're just killing them off and throwing away your magicka anyway.
they could remove both effects and the whole thing would just be better and less complicated.

Tyrant_Tim

Tannus15 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Even at 40 stacks, the Templar set fails to hit the mark, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that when you add 25% to a small number it’s still a small number.

You have a 10s uptime on your increase to damage, and the only ability that you can slot to benefit from the 25% in any significant way is Power of the Light… an ability with 6s required to explode. Meaning you will have to perfectly time your ability to hope for the chance to have two explosions within that window.

This has been mentioned, but if you weren’t required to run Solar Barrage to build stacks, Dark Flare would be interesting with this set.

Now for this set to truly shine, one of two things need to be done, the stacks need to be reduced by another 15 landing at a 25 stack requirement and there needs to be a 1 stack per-second limitation, or Vampire’s Bane needs to tick every second at the current 40 stacks.

Regardless of either option, we need to have control over where the Nova lands and that can be accomplished by getting a buff after our stacks are filled that lasts 5 seconds, empowering our next not-fully charged heavy attack to begin our 25% + Nova trade. Our timer for that 25% should start when we activate the Nova if we’re sacrificing half of our magicka.

i had a play with this last night and for PvE it's honestly a decent set that really shines in execute. once you start beaming the stacks come in fast and +25% beam hits like a truck.

that said, the magicka cost is terrible and needs to be either removed or toned back. the magicka regen doesn't feel impactful either as by the time you've got a bunch of stacks you're just killing them off and throwing away your magicka anyway.
they could remove both effects and the whole thing would just be better and less complicated.

So you’re saying that the set is fine because it shines in execute? That is the only time it shines.

Just because the Sorc set isn’t great, doesn’t mean that the Templar one is. You begin executing at 35%, so what about the other 65% of the fight?

Being a Templar is already enough to be valuable in execute, this set provides nothing to any of the unused Dawn’s Wrath skills and doesn’t provide enough value in execute to warrant it’s uselessness outside of it.

We will not be seeing usage in any setting outside of Cyrodiil, and even then, exclusively by ballgroups.

Edit; Also, if you’re going to say, it’s a “decent set” after testing it, post a parse. Because if you’re hitting under 110k with that set, it’s not comparable, remotely.

Tannus15

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Even at 40 stacks, the Templar set fails to hit the mark, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that when you add 25% to a small number it’s still a small number.

You have a 10s uptime on your increase to damage, and the only ability that you can slot to benefit from the 25% in any significant way is Power of the Light… an ability with 6s required to explode. Meaning you will have to perfectly time your ability to hope for the chance to have two explosions within that window.

This has been mentioned, but if you weren’t required to run Solar Barrage to build stacks, Dark Flare would be interesting with this set.

Now for this set to truly shine, one of two things need to be done, the stacks need to be reduced by another 15 landing at a 25 stack requirement and there needs to be a 1 stack per-second limitation, or Vampire’s Bane needs to tick every second at the current 40 stacks.

Regardless of either option, we need to have control over where the Nova lands and that can be accomplished by getting a buff after our stacks are filled that lasts 5 seconds, empowering our next not-fully charged heavy attack to begin our 25% + Nova trade. Our timer for that 25% should start when we activate the Nova if we’re sacrificing half of our magicka.

i had a play with this last night and for PvE it's honestly a decent set that really shines in execute. once you start beaming the stacks come in fast and +25% beam hits like a truck.

that said, the magicka cost is terrible and needs to be either removed or toned back. the magicka regen doesn't feel impactful either as by the time you've got a bunch of stacks you're just killing them off and throwing away your magicka anyway.
they could remove both effects and the whole thing would just be better and less complicated.

So you’re saying that the set is fine because it shines in execute? That is the only time it shines.

Just because the Sorc set isn’t great, doesn’t mean that the Templar one is. You begin executing at 35%, so what about the other 65% of the fight?

Being a Templar is already enough to be valuable in execute, this set provides nothing to any of the unused Dawn’s Wrath skills and doesn’t provide enough value in execute to warrant it’s uselessness outside of it.

We will not be seeing usage in any setting outside of Cyrodiil, and even then, exclusively by ballgroups.

Edit; Also, if you’re going to say, it’s a “decent set” after testing it, post a parse. Because if you’re hitting under 110k with that set, it’s not comparable, remotely.

I got 108k with it, but considering that's what i got with nirn *shrug* i'm not a magplar main. make of that what you will.
I didn't save the parse because, again, i'm not a magplar main. I was just curious.

the proc is ok, huge aoe and it hits pretty much once a minute.

the main problem i ran into, as stated, was the lack of mag. the sustain stacks don't help because the mag they are providing doesn't actually help when you need it to, which is when they reset and the wrathful ends.

honestly, genuinely, remove the mag sustain and cost and i'd classify this as good set. not BiS, but a solid alternative.

as it stands the nova is good. if it was JUST the nova then it would be under powered, however when combined with the bonus damage it's actually decent outside of execute and in execute it's very strong.

it "might" even be BiS for certain content like vHoF HM or vKA HM where sacrificing some damage in the first 50% is worth making the last 35% easier.

however undercutting it all is the unnecessary magicka cost/regen.

Tannus15

oh, i found a parse from the previous patch, 50 stack version.

there is no way a decent magplar wouldn't get > 110k with it.

virtus753

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Even at 40 stacks, the Templar set fails to hit the mark, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that when you add 25% to a small number it’s still a small number.

You have a 10s uptime on your increase to damage, and the only ability that you can slot to benefit from the 25% in any significant way is Power of the Light… an ability with 6s required to explode. Meaning you will have to perfectly time your ability to hope for the chance to have two explosions within that window.

This has been mentioned, but if you weren’t required to run Solar Barrage to build stacks, Dark Flare would be interesting with this set.

Now for this set to truly shine, one of two things need to be done, the stacks need to be reduced by another 15 landing at a 25 stack requirement and there needs to be a 1 stack per-second limitation, or Vampire’s Bane needs to tick every second at the current 40 stacks.

Regardless of either option, we need to have control over where the Nova lands and that can be accomplished by getting a buff after our stacks are filled that lasts 5 seconds, empowering our next not-fully charged heavy attack to begin our 25% + Nova trade. Our timer for that 25% should start when we activate the Nova if we’re sacrificing half of our magicka.

i had a play with this last night and for PvE it's honestly a decent set that really shines in execute. once you start beaming the stacks come in fast and +25% beam hits like a truck.

that said, the magicka cost is terrible and needs to be either removed or toned back. the magicka regen doesn't feel impactful either as by the time you've got a bunch of stacks you're just killing them off and throwing away your magicka anyway.
they could remove both effects and the whole thing would just be better and less complicated.

So you’re saying that the set is fine because it shines in execute? That is the only time it shines.

Just because the Sorc set isn’t great, doesn’t mean that the Templar one is. You begin executing at 35%, so what about the other 65% of the fight?

Being a Templar is already enough to be valuable in execute, this set provides nothing to any of the unused Dawn’s Wrath skills and doesn’t provide enough value in execute to warrant it’s uselessness outside of it.

We will not be seeing usage in any setting outside of Cyrodiil, and even then, exclusively by ballgroups.

Edit; Also, if you’re going to say, it’s a “decent set” after testing it, post a parse. Because if you’re hitting under 110k with that set, it’s not comparable, remotely.

Out of curiosity: why start execute at 35% full stop when beam overtakes jabs/sweeps between 45 and 42%, depending on CP? That seems to be leaving a lot of damage on the table unless you know you have a lot of adds.

Tyrant_Tim

virtus753 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Even at 40 stacks, the Templar set fails to hit the mark, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that when you add 25% to a small number it’s still a small number.

You have a 10s uptime on your increase to damage, and the only ability that you can slot to benefit from the 25% in any significant way is Power of the Light… an ability with 6s required to explode. Meaning you will have to perfectly time your ability to hope for the chance to have two explosions within that window.

This has been mentioned, but if you weren’t required to run Solar Barrage to build stacks, Dark Flare would be interesting with this set.

Now for this set to truly shine, one of two things need to be done, the stacks need to be reduced by another 15 landing at a 25 stack requirement and there needs to be a 1 stack per-second limitation, or Vampire’s Bane needs to tick every second at the current 40 stacks.

Regardless of either option, we need to have control over where the Nova lands and that can be accomplished by getting a buff after our stacks are filled that lasts 5 seconds, empowering our next not-fully charged heavy attack to begin our 25% + Nova trade. Our timer for that 25% should start when we activate the Nova if we’re sacrificing half of our magicka.

i had a play with this last night and for PvE it's honestly a decent set that really shines in execute. once you start beaming the stacks come in fast and +25% beam hits like a truck.

that said, the magicka cost is terrible and needs to be either removed or toned back. the magicka regen doesn't feel impactful either as by the time you've got a bunch of stacks you're just killing them off and throwing away your magicka anyway.
they could remove both effects and the whole thing would just be better and less complicated.

So you’re saying that the set is fine because it shines in execute? That is the only time it shines.

Just because the Sorc set isn’t great, doesn’t mean that the Templar one is. You begin executing at 35%, so what about the other 65% of the fight?

Being a Templar is already enough to be valuable in execute, this set provides nothing to any of the unused Dawn’s Wrath skills and doesn’t provide enough value in execute to warrant it’s uselessness outside of it.

We will not be seeing usage in any setting outside of Cyrodiil, and even then, exclusively by ballgroups.

Edit; Also, if you’re going to say, it’s a “decent set” after testing it, post a parse. Because if you’re hitting under 110k with that set, it’s not comparable, remotely.

Out of curiosity: why start execute at 35% full stop when beam overtakes jabs/sweeps between 45 and 42%, depending on CP? That seems to be leaving a lot of damage on the table unless you know you have a lot of adds.

When your primary stat is Stamina, that’s around the percentage you used to start beaming to ensure you don’t run out of Magicka mid-parse.

Though I haven’t hit a dummy since Lost Depths, admittedly this might have changed. Either way, 108k is a lot different than 130k.

Thanks @Tannus15 for the parse, if any of my proposed ideas took root to address the set, your parse would have sat around 112k-115k.

Not a revolutionary number, but one that would be more comfortably sat at given the AoE nature of the set.

virtus753

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Even at 40 stacks, the Templar set fails to hit the mark, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that when you add 25% to a small number it’s still a small number.

You have a 10s uptime on your increase to damage, and the only ability that you can slot to benefit from the 25% in any significant way is Power of the Light… an ability with 6s required to explode. Meaning you will have to perfectly time your ability to hope for the chance to have two explosions within that window.

This has been mentioned, but if you weren’t required to run Solar Barrage to build stacks, Dark Flare would be interesting with this set.

Now for this set to truly shine, one of two things need to be done, the stacks need to be reduced by another 15 landing at a 25 stack requirement and there needs to be a 1 stack per-second limitation, or Vampire’s Bane needs to tick every second at the current 40 stacks.

Regardless of either option, we need to have control over where the Nova lands and that can be accomplished by getting a buff after our stacks are filled that lasts 5 seconds, empowering our next not-fully charged heavy attack to begin our 25% + Nova trade. Our timer for that 25% should start when we activate the Nova if we’re sacrificing half of our magicka.

i had a play with this last night and for PvE it's honestly a decent set that really shines in execute. once you start beaming the stacks come in fast and +25% beam hits like a truck.

that said, the magicka cost is terrible and needs to be either removed or toned back. the magicka regen doesn't feel impactful either as by the time you've got a bunch of stacks you're just killing them off and throwing away your magicka anyway.
they could remove both effects and the whole thing would just be better and less complicated.

So you’re saying that the set is fine because it shines in execute? That is the only time it shines.

Just because the Sorc set isn’t great, doesn’t mean that the Templar one is. You begin executing at 35%, so what about the other 65% of the fight?

Being a Templar is already enough to be valuable in execute, this set provides nothing to any of the unused Dawn’s Wrath skills and doesn’t provide enough value in execute to warrant it’s uselessness outside of it.

We will not be seeing usage in any setting outside of Cyrodiil, and even then, exclusively by ballgroups.

Edit; Also, if you’re going to say, it’s a “decent set” after testing it, post a parse. Because if you’re hitting under 110k with that set, it’s not comparable, remotely.

Out of curiosity: why start execute at 35% full stop when beam overtakes jabs/sweeps between 45 and 42%, depending on CP? That seems to be leaving a lot of damage on the table unless you know you have a lot of adds.

When your primary stat is Stamina, that’s around the percentage you used to start beaming to ensure you don’t run out of Magicka mid-parse.

Though I haven’t hit a dummy since Lost Depths, admittedly this might have changed. Either way, 108k is a lot different than 130k.

Thanks @Tannus15 for the parse, if any of my proposed ideas took root to address the set, your parse would have sat around 112k-115k.

Not a revolutionary number, but one that would be more comfortably sat at given the AoE nature of the set.

Thank you for the explanation. I appreciate the response. I haven’t ever done that on stamplar myself, either on the dummy or in content; I drop or use other skills to manage magicka so I can start beaming by 40%. In content this will also change going forward with Radiant Glory, which I’ve found to be the overwhelmingly more valuable morph for tris.

Necrotech_Master

Tannus15 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

im excited for the upcoming content, but i would agree that many of these class sets are generally too gimmicky

the monolith of storms i dont see why it couldnt proc a monolith on every instance of dmg if the dmg is sub par

i kind of wish the 5th bonus acted more like an arena weapon but for a class skill + passive or something along those lines where it adds to or alters an effect

most all of the class sets kind of fit this bill pretty good, the sorc one would, if the proc condition wasnt so bizarre and the dmg application was better

my suggested changes for monolith to improve it:

-change proc conditions to any instance of dmg, not just initial hit or 5th tick
-increase the dmg tick rate to at least 1 tick per second
-either increase the dmg by some amount, or allow the target to get dmg from multiple monolith tethers (if its being hit by multiple tethers subsequent dmg could be reduced by a certain amount so it increases but not exponentially)

one of the most important changes required for this set is over looked.
The pylons should not be able to spawn within 5 meters of another pylon.

this is all too common with this set:



I did a full parse and only damaged a single target skelly with monolith.
right now it's a single target set cosplaying as an AOE set.

yeah i saw that screencap from another thread, the random placement of the monoliths also seem to be a problem

honestly, the monoliths probably should not tether to each other, it would be better if it was more like a "lightning rod" that either tethered to the nearest enemy (kind of like the storm atro), or did like an aoe lightning burst within a radius of the monolith (which would make a 2 sec tick rate make more sense if its a high dmg burst instead of a tether)

this would allow 1 monolith to actually be useful lol

Billium813

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

This has been mentioned, but if you weren’t required to run Solar Barrage to build stacks, Dark Flare would be interesting with this set.

Just FYI, Wrathsun does NOT work the way you may think it would work with Solar Barrage. Even though Solar Barrage does AOE damage around you, it still only procs 1 stack of Sunlight every 2 seconds, regardless of how many enemies are hit...



I know it's hard to see, but the Sunshine stacks are at 1 in this image and only go up by 1 each time that Solar Barrage deals damage. With Solar Barrage only, it'll take you 80 whole seconds just to build up 1 Wrathful Nova!

Alternatively, Wrathsun works REALLY well with Reflective Light. Each separate DoT procs a Sunshine stack! The downside is that the player doesn't really have any control over WHAT enemies get hit with Reflective Light. It'd be interesting if Reflective Light prioritized enemies WITHOUT a current DoT on them... but sadly that isn't how it works.



Just to note, Radiant Destruction Skills are OK; creating 3 Sunshine stacks per cast since it damages 3 times over 1.8 seconds.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Now for this set to truly shine, one of two things need to be done, the stacks need to be reduced by another 15 landing at a 25 stack requirement and there needs to be a 1 stack per-second limitation, or Vampire’s Bane needs to tick every second at the current 40 stacks.

One large issue players seem to be having with Wrathsun seems to be players expecting it to tick faster. However, I wonder where this thought is coming from cause context matters. If you are parsing on a target dummy, Wrathsun is ALWAYS gonna look horrid. The ticks on Solar Barrage are just too slow. Unfortunately, if they lower the stack requirement much more, then Reflective Light will be able to proc Wrathful Nova every 10 seconds with enough enemies around!

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Regardless of either option, we need to have control over where the Nova lands

For me, this is the nail in the coffin. All of the Dawn's Wrath Skills, except Reflective Light, are just too slow. Lowering the Sunshine stack requirements AND adding a 1 stack per second requirement would actually totally neuter the set IMO. And to top it all off... the dang Wrathful Nova procs whenever and wherever it pleases. If the player is on the slow plan with Solar Barrage, it feels terrible. On the fast plan with Reflective Light, it makes me wish Reflective Light was better... I

It makes me wonder what the devs thought the play pattern with this set would look like. I can throw Reflective Light everywhere to proc faster, but dumping a Wrathful Nova out in the boonies is pointless. There aren't enough Dawn's Wrath abilities that proc Sunshine well enough to warrant running Wrathsun and the ones that do are clunky. blah.

Necrotech_Master

since i saw the reports of solar barrage only procing 1 stack per dmg instance, i figured the 2 best skills to actually proc this set would be reflective light (because it hits multiple targets) and radiant destruction (3 stacks every 2 sec)

for the early part of a fight, wrathsun likely wont be of much help, because its not ideal to spam jesus beam until at least 35-40% depending on sustain needs

if you wanted maximum control on where it would proc, you would have to be attacking 1 target, with a combination of vampires bane and jesus beam

vampires bane is 1 stack every 2 sec, jesus beam is 3 stacks every 1.8 sec (rounding to 2 sec for ease of calculation)

so between the 2 of them, that is 4 stacks every 2 sec if you have both running (approximately), which would be a minimum of a nova every 20 seconds, which is actually not half bad, and you would be able to control the target assuming you were only attacking 1 target (but this method relies entirely on mag skills, and when that nova proc happens you lose 50% magicka)

vampires bane is easier to sustain because it lasts a really long time (around 32 sec), its spamming jesus beam that would start to eat magicka

honestly the largest problem with the set is the heavy reliance on magicka skills, when the set itself eats half of your magicka when it procs, so you kind of need the massive recovery if you plan on trying to get this nova proc often

if you wanted to drop vampires bane, and only use jesus beam, you would still get a nova proc every 24 seconds

if you didnt care where the nove proc and only wanted to proc it often, reflective light in a large mob is probably the best, as its 1 stack per target (which means if you somehow had reflective ticking on 40 enemies, you could proc a nova every 2 seconds and never have any magicka lol)

if its only using the base unmorphed nova, then it would last for 8 seconds itself, so a proc every 24 seconds isnt too bad honestly

it would probably shine more during execute than normal fighting when your heavily using jesus beam (which with the change to restore magicka over the duration will make its sustain easier with low mag)

Tyrant_Tim

@Billium813, thanks for the mini-clips.

You mentioned Solar Barrage not adding stacks per target hit, something that I was unaware of, that makes the ability even worse than what I projected and had confirmed by @Tannus15.

Now, for Reflective Light, that’s fine and well, and you would expect to run that skill with Solar Barrage, an ability that procs as fast as Dark Flare still, even with only once every other second, due to the cast/travel time of Dark Flare, this opens your build up to run a spammable that provides competitive damage.

Adding a 1 stack a second cool-down with a reduced stack rate would allow the stacks to be lowered, while reducing the necessity to slot the already mention Dawn’s Wrath skills found lacking, and this would make the set great, I’ll explain.

At one stack a second for 25 seconds, with a 10 second uptime on the buff, that’s a consistent up-time of 40%, and even with Radiant being less effective proc’ing it, it would allow you to drop your other Dawn’s Wrath skills from rotation, now, currently in Single-Target fights, you land around 20-30% uptime on that 25% damage increase until execute. That’s below average, no other way to put it… which wouldn’t be a problem if there weren’t already AoE sets in the game that exceed those values and actually stick to their target.

Sets like Pillar of Nirn and Whorl of the Depths will still receive precedent in raids, over Wrathsun in it’s current iteration, where I would prefer they were at least comparable.

Now, if you could control where Nova landed, and could have consistency with how it proc’d, the set would reach numbers higher for AoE fights to offset the lack in Single-Target, but without that control, it’s not even close.

Billium813

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if you wanted to drop vampires bane, and only use jesus beam, you would still get a nova proc every 24 seconds

You're gonna spam Beam for 24 seconds straight? Just to proc this set, so that you can spam more Beams with +25% damage? I hate what Templar has become...

Tannus15

@Tyrant_Tim Part of what makes wrathsun decent is the fact that you're running, solar barrage, vamp bane and power of the light.
Because you've already got a bunch of dawn's wrath skills in the rotation it works. However once you start beaming it's a very strong set.

It's clearly not going to be the right choice for all situations, but most trial situations you're stacking the adds on the boss or the boss has a huge hitbox so you're likely going to get the cleave from the proc anyway.
Likewise, as I mentioned before, any fight which has nasty execute mechanics you'll be getting the power spike when you want it.

It's not going to shake up the META, and I maintain that the entire magicka cost / regen thing should just be removed, but it's a decent option. I'd say A tier if you have the support to ignore the magicka drain or if you can make it work with bahsei, B tier at worst.

Tyrant_Tim

When the Sorc set inevitably gets buffed, and still isn’t comparable to other proc sets within their area, we should accept those new values too?

Isn’t that the whole debate over the set right now? Because it’s not competitive?

“A” tier does not compete with “S” tier any more than “D” tier would. When it comes to sets, people are going to pick the best, most efficient ones. Wrathsun and Monolith are not S tier for any area of content…

What am I missing here?

Tannus15

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

When the Sorc set inevitably gets buffed, and still isn’t comparable to other proc sets within their area, we should accept those new values too?

Isn’t that the whole debate over the set right now? Because it’s not competitive?

“A” tier does not compete with “S” tier any more than “D” tier would. When it comes to sets, people are going to pick the best, most efficient ones. Wrathsun and Monolith are not S tier for any area of content…

What am I missing here?

If monolith had the proc condition fixed so you could use it with hurricane, and the pylon placement fixed so that is actually did aoe damage and the damage increased so that it's actually an A tier set then, sure i'd run it in fights were cleave is important.

I guess my point is that wrathsun isn't a fundamentally broken set. it synergises well with PvE rotations, the proc damage is a bit low, but the aoe is large and the damage buff helps make up for that. It procs faster once you start beaming, which is when you can really take advantage of that extra damage buff.

again, as stated over and over, the magicka drain is dumb, and the mag regen unnecessary, but it's not a bad set.

as a class set it uses the skill line it's targeted at and and benefits that same skill line.
it has a cool impressive proc explosion as well.

some minor tweaks could easily push this into BiS for templar, which they have shown some inclination towards by reducing the stacks required to proc it.

personally i'd increase the proc damage up a bit to make it more rewarding and remove the weird magicka thing.

Necrotech_Master

Billium813 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if you wanted to drop vampires bane, and only use jesus beam, you would still get a nova proc every 24 seconds

You're gonna spam Beam for 24 seconds straight? Just to proc this set, so that you can spam more Beams with +25% damage? I hate what Templar has become...

well it is the most effective way to proc the set lol

thats why i suggested adding vampires bane to add additional stacks, but it would keep it single target to slightly more control where the nova proc happened

if you wanted to proc it faster, then you want reflective light to hit adds to your primary target to get extra stacks, but more adds with reflective = less control on proc location

to be honest i would have almost preferred that the stacks for this set built either from any templar class skill, or focused more on the aedric spear line so you could do jabs spam to proc it, and it would be somewhat fast and controlled where the proc occurred

but since stacks only go off dawns wrath you have basically 1 option with a couple modifiers

-primary spam = jesus beam
-optional spam = solar barrage (even though it doesnt generate more than 1 stack per proc, its still adding templar dmg and can generate stacks)
-optional spam = vampires bane (long duration on single target, to help generate stacks passively so they dont fall off, and add more control where the nova proc lands)
-optional spam = reflective light (hits more targets = generates stacks faster, but basically 0 control where the proc is going to land since it could be any of the targets that have this ticking)

the other options solar flare is too slow (1 stack per second) and isnt necessarily that good of a skill, backlash and morphs are also too slow, they would only generate 2 stacks per 6 sec (1 on initial cast, 1 after the 6 sec timer with the burst, slower than the dot of reflective light/vampires bane)

the last skill eclipse, only has 1 viable morph that could at all proc stacks, which is unstable core, which is by far the least useful, as it requires the target to be dealing direct dmg attacks, and only lasts for 4 sec, limited to 1 target (i dont even think anyone uses this skill anymore, the only one people run is the other morph living dark, which deals no dmg so cannot proc stacks)

theoretically nova itself could help proc stacks, but being an ultimate that is not as useful as it already has low uptime lol