Companions in Endless Archive

FantasticFreddie

I used Ember, first try she was in her usual healer with some dd skills setup. Second try was pure healer, 3rd try was pure dd.

When she had some self heals she stayed alive marginally better, but for the most part, it was more effort to try and move her out of aoes (she WILL NOT move on her own) and heal her than it was to let her die and do the fights without her. Any trash fight with a lot of aoe presence, and every boss fight with aoe presence just killed her immediately. We got lady thorn almost every round and Ember would NOT stay with me no matter how many times I tried to put her on passive and stick close, she died in the fog within seconds.

Either companions need a heck of an adjustment for this content, or companion runs need to be moved onto the solo leaderboards. They are in no way comparable to an actual person.

Jim_Pipp

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

companion runs need to be moved onto the solo leaderboards. They are in no way comparable to an actual person.

This. I cannot understand why companions are being treated as equivalent to another player for the leaderboards. Anyone trying to engage with leaderboards is actively discouraged from using companions, as you can't compete with a team of two players, so you will be better going solo.

A third leaderboard for people who want to use companions is the obvious solution.

RaptorRodeoGod

It's almost like Endless Archive is highlighting the issues with companions lol

BigMakatak

I was afraid of this. However, I find Isobel to be an EXTREMELY effective DD, especially with two-handed weapons (besides, greatswords suit her as a knight). I should also try having her dual-wield, see if that makes her even deadlier!

essi2

Companions can always get better, but at no point has ZOS said they are a replacement for a player.

Find them lacking in duo... don't play the duo-leaderboard, they will never live up to the skill of a human player.

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

A third leaderboard for people who want to use companions is the obvious solution.

The obvious solution is to not go in with a companion active.

AlterBlika

If companions could step out of aoes and actually play mechanics it would be great. Right now they're only useful to be sacrificed to get 33% dmg reduction from pearlescent

Necrotech_Master

the companions have serious problems during the normal lady thorn fight in castle thorn dungeon, its not unique to endless archive

in fact the companions standing in AOE has been a major problem since they released initially, and the only change to try to help that was making the companions strafe a little bit during combat instead of being 100% stand still until they got too low hp and needed to dodge roll

there are many DLC dungeons where the companions are straight useless because they will die to the mechanics (black drake villa is another one they will routinely die on the final boss)

loveeso

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

I used Ember, first try she was in her usual healer with some dd skills setup. Second try was pure healer, 3rd try was pure dd.

When she had some self heals she stayed alive marginally better, but for the most part, it was more effort to try and move her out of aoes (she WILL NOT move on her own) and heal her than it was to let her die and do the fights without her. Any trash fight with a lot of aoe presence, and every boss fight with aoe presence just killed her immediately. We got lady thorn almost every round and Ember would NOT stay with me no matter how many times I tried to put her on passive and stick close, she died in the fog within seconds.

Either companions need a heck of an adjustment for this content, or companion runs need to be moved onto the solo leaderboards. They are in no way comparable to an actual person.

Exactly. I wrote about this problem in two other threads but the subject was shot down by fanboys spreading misinformation.
We need an additional leaderboard for player+companion (and no, playing solo is not a solution - some of my friends prefer to bring companions so that they don't feel lonely doing solo content) AND companions need to either be made immune to mechanics or their AI has to be improved to avoid them. We also need them to be able to interrupt and revive, especially if there are no other players around. For now, their AI is just ridiculously primitive. It's not the 1980s anymore. Scratch that, most retro games from that decade had better AI than ESO in 2023

kojou

I generally use my companion as a tank. I send her in first to draw the aggro and then join the fight. This at least is most effective for me since I can equip Isobel with all heavy armor and damage reduction traits, and she stays alive for most things.

They make reasonably effective healers, but using one for damage is generally a waste.

Necrotech_Master

kojou wrote: »

I generally use my companion as a tank. I send her in first to draw the aggro and then join the fight. This at least is most effective for me since I can equip Isobel with all heavy armor and damage reduction traits, and she stays alive for most things.

They make reasonably effective healers, but using one for damage is generally a waste.

dps companions generally work best with tank characters, since usually you dont need the healing as a tank, but they can add a rough 10k dps on top of what your doing

Dragonredux

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

It's almost like Endless Archive is highlighting the issues with companions lol

They been bad since release, they're just reskinned sorc pets. I don't why people expected anything meaningful out of them when they fall over to any aoe they graces their presence.

code65536

There are no good choices here.

• Companions in duo leaderboard: A companion is nowhere near as useful as an actual human.
• Companions in solo leaderboard: This is unfair to players who are purely solo, since while a companion may be 90% useless, they still provide 10% usefulness, and it would mean that players will "need" to have a companion out in order to compete.
• Companions in a third leaderboard: Too much leaderboard fragmentation.

Frankly, the status quo is the least worst of these choices. Companions in the solo board is the worst choice and should not even be on the table.

One more consideration is that the PTS population is a small fraction of the Live population. There will be many, many more people trying to get onto the boards, and I'm going to venture a guess the most of the people who would want a companion are not likely to care enough to fight for one of those 100 leaderboard spots.

Elsonso

code65536 wrote: »

There are no good choices here.

• Companions in duo leaderboard: A companion is nowhere near as useful as an actual human.
• Companions in solo leaderboard: This is unfair to players who are purely solo, since while a companion may be 90% useless, they still provide 10% usefulness, and it would mean that players will "need" to have a companion out in order to compete.
• Companions in a third leaderboard: Too much leaderboard fragmentation.

Frankly, the status quo is the least worst of these choices. Companions in the solo board is the worst choice and should not even be on the table.

One more consideration is that the PTS population is a small fraction of the Live population. There will be many, many more people trying to get onto the boards, and I'm going to venture a guess the most of the people who would want a companion are not likely to care enough to fight for one of those 100 leaderboard spots.

I'd just drop the whole leaderboard thing, personally. Let people go in there solo, with friends, or with their companion and earn rewards. Leaderboard is just bragging rights.

As this is very unlikely... Companions should simply turn off the leaderboard. Probably equally unlikely. I don't expect any real changes to the Endless Archive before middle of 2025. They probably know what they want to do, and so it will be a couple years before they do another "pass".

Soarora

Elsonso wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

There are no good choices here.

• Companions in duo leaderboard: A companion is nowhere near as useful as an actual human.
• Companions in solo leaderboard: This is unfair to players who are purely solo, since while a companion may be 90% useless, they still provide 10% usefulness, and it would mean that players will "need" to have a companion out in order to compete.
• Companions in a third leaderboard: Too much leaderboard fragmentation.

Frankly, the status quo is the least worst of these choices. Companions in the solo board is the worst choice and should not even be on the table.

One more consideration is that the PTS population is a small fraction of the Live population. There will be many, many more people trying to get onto the boards, and I'm going to venture a guess the most of the people who would want a companion are not likely to care enough to fight for one of those 100 leaderboard spots.

I'd just drop the whole leaderboard thing, personally. Let people go in there solo, with friends, or with their companion and earn rewards. Leaderboard is just bragging rights.

As this is very unlikely... Companions should simply turn off the leaderboard. Probably equally unlikely. I don't expect any real changes to the Endless Archive before middle of 2025. They probably know what they want to do, and so it will be a couple years before they do another "pass".

Leaderboard adds endgame replayability via scorepushing, it’s important.

Anyways… maybe these companion discussions will lead to my bear not being absolutely massacred by several (but not all) of the bosses? A warden can dream.

Hotdog_23

Console player.

Find it odd that companions count as duo in this content, but pets don’t. When, most of the time, companions are counted or controlled as pets. Seems like a double standard is being applied here. Plus, you can’t even select what versus/vision they can get, apparently.

Honestly, the easiest solution would be having a leaderboard with companion only. So you have 3 leaderboards. Duo, solo and companion.

As far as companions dying to AOE’s. The easiest solution, I would think, would be a damage reduction companions take from AOE’s.

Stay safe

fred4

AlterBlika wrote: »

Right now they're only useful to be sacrificed to get 33% dmg reduction from pearlescent

This is probably the best use of companions in high-end content. I've tried Telvanni Efficiency plus Quickened, which lowers the cooldown of companion skills by something like 80%. They can use the resto Steadfast Ward equivalent shield every 2 seconds and the medium armor Vanish skill about every 9 seconds with that. The latter sheds aggro and makes them invulnerable for 6 seconds. This works if an AOE only lasts 6 seconds, otherwise they still die. The various companion shields mostly suffer from bad trigger conditions. If they had higher or no health thresholds, they would work much better and would possibly be OP.

My testing ground was vet Shipwright's Regret, solo with companion. I tried a bunch of build variations, I really did, but at the end of the day you can't get around the fact that companions are dumb, much as the AI of the monsters that we face. I don't think that's ever going to change. It's an AI problem that affects foes and companions alike. Also, the moment companions are truly useful to an endgame player, they would probably be seriously OP for the majority of the player population, because the skill gradient in this game is that high.

TL;DR: Pearlescent beats Telvanni Efficiency, if you must wear one of those sets, while without them companions are completely useless (aside from Sharp's fishing bonus). Make a naked tank companion that suicides by taunting. That said, in my experience damage and sustain beats using companions, e.g. you may want a heavy attack build or something like VO / False God plus a damage set. I haven't been to the PTS, but assume the archive is designed to ramp up and eventually overwhelm you. I've got to assume that will push you in a sustain direction more than the solo arenas, which can be steamrolled with pure damage these days, but I guess we'll see.

J18696

Companions are so useless id argue they don't even give you any advantage majority of the time XD

AlterBlika

fred4 wrote: »

TL;DR: Pearlescent beats Telvanni Efficiency, if you must wear one of those sets, while without them companions are completely useless (aside from Sharp's fishing bonus). Make a naked tank companion that suicides by taunting. That said, in my experience damage and sustain beats using companions, e.g. you may want a heavy attack build or something like VO / False God plus a damage set. I haven't been to the PTS, but assume the archive is designed to ramp up and eventually overwhelm you. I've got to assume that will push you in a sustain direction more than the solo arenas, which can be steamrolled with pure damage these days, but I guess we'll see.

Actually, I never run sustain sets, I just pick sustain race and use enchanted jewelry when needed (I have the same jewelry with different enchants lol). Plus I run master 2h build so I kind of should have sustain issues due to brawler being expensive but I don't.

I just remembered that there are fights where companions just don't die. They aren't targettable by enemies and don't play mechs. Cauldron comes to mind, for example. Or it's just me but every time I go there my healer never dies on the last boss

Elsonso

Soarora wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

There are no good choices here.

• Companions in duo leaderboard: A companion is nowhere near as useful as an actual human.
• Companions in solo leaderboard: This is unfair to players who are purely solo, since while a companion may be 90% useless, they still provide 10% usefulness, and it would mean that players will "need" to have a companion out in order to compete.
• Companions in a third leaderboard: Too much leaderboard fragmentation.

Frankly, the status quo is the least worst of these choices. Companions in the solo board is the worst choice and should not even be on the table.

One more consideration is that the PTS population is a small fraction of the Live population. There will be many, many more people trying to get onto the boards, and I'm going to venture a guess the most of the people who would want a companion are not likely to care enough to fight for one of those 100 leaderboard spots.

I'd just drop the whole leaderboard thing, personally. Let people go in there solo, with friends, or with their companion and earn rewards. Leaderboard is just bragging rights.

As this is very unlikely... Companions should simply turn off the leaderboard. Probably equally unlikely. I don't expect any real changes to the Endless Archive before middle of 2025. They probably know what they want to do, and so it will be a couple years before they do another "pass".

Leaderboard adds endgame replayability via scorepushing, it’s important.

Anyways… maybe these companion discussions will lead to my bear not being absolutely massacred by several (but not all) of the bosses? A warden can dream.

Is it really that important? There is other endgame leaderboard stuff, already. Is one more that important?

Anyway... Companions should not be considered "grouped" and they should not contribute to either leaderboard.

Jim_Pipp

Elsonso wrote: »

l
Is it really that important? There is other endgame leaderboard stuff, already. Is one more that important?

Currently there is no endgame content where companions aren't a poor replacement. I'm sure that is by design, but I personally would really like a way to test companions competitively.

I don't play so much at the moment. My good builds are copied from other players, but my companions and companion focussed builds are theory-crafted and tested. My most fun moments in the last year have been when a companion has replaced another player in a vet pug.

Probably a third companion leaderboard would be the least popular overall, but I imagine I would enjoy it because companions have been my endgame for a while. Companions are not as powerful as another player, but they are a significant power up for solo players, and a third leaderboard could finally prove exactly how much a well-built companion can do.

fred4

AlterBlika wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

TL;DR: Pearlescent beats Telvanni Efficiency, if you must wear one of those sets, while without them companions are completely useless (aside from Sharp's fishing bonus). Make a naked tank companion that suicides by taunting. That said, in my experience damage and sustain beats using companions, e.g. you may want a heavy attack build or something like VO / False God plus a damage set. I haven't been to the PTS, but assume the archive is designed to ramp up and eventually overwhelm you. I've got to assume that will push you in a sustain direction more than the solo arenas, which can be steamrolled with pure damage these days, but I guess we'll see.

Actually, I never run sustain sets, I just pick sustain race

My Master's 2H character is a Nord. Yes, I bet a Redguard is better for that kind of build. Some people also just rely on the CP that gives back stamina from killing.

and use enchanted jewelry when needed (I have the same jewelry with different enchants lol). Plus I run master 2h build so I kind of should have sustain issues due to brawler being expensive but I don't.

I wonder, have you attempted things like vet Blackrose Prison (arena 1 to completion), vet Hel Ra first trash fight, or the final boss in vet Cauldron on hard mode (my group died, I completed it on a Brawler build). How about the first boss in vet Shipwright's:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuCXG3RRuxk

Certainly being a dark dealing stamsorc helps a lot and VO doesn't exactly shine in Shipwright's. That said your skill choice from one second to the next narrows considerably, the harder the content. In other words I find you sometimes need sustained Brawler spam for the shielding. In vet Shipwright's you sometimes have to block while spamming Brawler. Very hard on sustain. This was the only way I could outshield and, thereby, deal with the Atro's poison DOT on that build. In the hardest stuff I have attempted to solo, with Brawler, it has at least felt like sustain allowed me to better progress the fight compared to dark dealing (or heavy attacking) more.

I just remembered that there are fights where companions just don't die. They aren't targettable by enemies and don't play mechs. Cauldron comes to mind, for example. Or it's just me but every time I go there my healer never dies on the last boss

On vet or on normal? With other group members or without? That's interesting considering the rotating flame wall. I have also found exceptions where companions are genuinely useful. An example of this is Fang Lair, where you are using Precognition to get around a mechanic. A companion tank holding aggro in the following fight gets you around a nasty stun / execute combo from Sabina / Ulfnor that can happen on top of the chain mechanic otherwise. I've just found such examples exceedingly rare and wouldn't expect them in content designed for solo play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmdFvTrlaxQ

ADarklore

J18696 wrote: »

Companions are so useless id argue they don't even give you any advantage majority of the time XD

Anyone who says companions are useless clearly doesn't know how to utilize them properly. Proper gear, leveling, skills and role go a long way to making them successful. Expecting them to be comparable to another player while devoting no effort into them or their builds = "useless".

BigMakatak

@ADarklore I completely agree with you! Has anyone here ever used Isobel as a damage-dealer? She's INCREDIBLY powerful in that role, probably more so than most players.

NotoriousBTK

As soon as I heard the announcement I thought it was ridiculous to consider a companion part of a duo. I play a pet sorc, and while I know I personally won't ever be up on a leaderboard, I'm playing with 3 pets instead of 2 when I have a companion with me. Yeah Isobel is great and I "solo" a lot of group content with her, but she doesn't compare to being grouped with another player, especially if the other player gets to pick visions and verses and the companion gets nothing. .

BigMakatak

@NotoriousBTK Again, completely agreed. I'd never make it onto a leaderboard, either, but, then again, I'm against competition anyway.

However, the devs have stated that companions are going to be reworked, either late next year or in 2025. Hopefully, that will include better AI ("Bastian, get out of the AoE field! Ember, quit rolling away every time an enemy gets close to you! Oh, great, the world boss was down to 1% HP, but it was chasing Ember and has now reset! DAMN!") and the ability to have greater control over them (such as telling them to wait in a certain spot or guard a specific location or person).

Elsonso

ADarklore wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

Companions are so useless id argue they don't even give you any advantage majority of the time XD

Anyone who says companions are useless clearly doesn't know how to utilize them properly. Proper gear, leveling, skills and role go a long way to making them successful. Expecting them to be comparable to another player while devoting no effort into them or their builds = "useless".

This is part of the reason that I don't think they should be considered "grouped". They are part of a build, like what armor sets and skills the character has.

FantasticFreddie

ADarklore wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

Companions are so useless id argue they don't even give you any advantage majority of the time XD

Anyone who says companions are useless clearly doesn't know how to utilize them properly. Proper gear, leveling, skills and role go a long way to making them successful. Expecting them to be comparable to another player while devoting no effort into them or their builds = "useless".

I got Lady thorn at least once per each arc, and Ember simply stood in the shadows and died each time. When she was alive, sure she did what I built her to do.
The problem is, she died.

BigMakatak

I can't argue with @FantasticFreddie's stance, either. I mean, the least they could do is make companions roll-dodge to the side of, or through and behind, an enemy so that they avoid the AoE whenever they're within one.

J18696

ADarklore wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

Companions are so useless id argue they don't even give you any advantage majority of the time XD

Anyone who says companions are useless clearly doesn't know how to utilize them properly. Proper gear, leveling, skills and role go a long way to making them successful. Expecting them to be comparable to another player while devoting no effort into them or their builds = "useless".

Does not matter how well you set one up and gear it out take it into any meaningful content and it will die reguardless all they can do is help players clear content you can essentially do half asleep

Necrotech_Master

J18696 wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

Companions are so useless id argue they don't even give you any advantage majority of the time XD

Anyone who says companions are useless clearly doesn't know how to utilize them properly. Proper gear, leveling, skills and role go a long way to making them successful. Expecting them to be comparable to another player while devoting no effort into them or their builds = "useless".

Does not matter how well you set one up and gear it out take it into any meaningful content and it will die reguardless all they can do is help players clear content you can essentially do half asleep

they can actually do a lot, just not anything with "fancy" mechanics such as big area aoes that you have to stand in a spot to avoid (castle thorn/black drake villa), or mechanics you need to block through (like the conal attacks from enemies in scriveners hall/bal sunnar)

anything without complicated mechanics they can do proficiently if set up correctly

Elsonso

BigMakatak wrote: »

I can't argue with @FantasticFreddie's stance, either. I mean, the least they could do is make companions roll-dodge to the side of, or through and behind, an enemy so that they avoid the AoE whenever they're within one.

They do avoid the AoEs, but on cooldown. The Endless Archive has a lot of AoE. The companions have to tough it out and happily stand in it while commenting on how it hurts. When I did it, I felt sorry for Azandar-in-training. Little did he know the game was rigged from the start.