Endless Archive Progression is Too Slow

skinnycheeks

Really loving the archive. The concept is insanely good. But after a few runs, I'm noticing one thing that many others that have done it a few times now are also saying...

It takes TOO long to progress through it

Each of my runs has been 3-5 hours now. That is a bit more than most want to sit down for. The # of bosses per arc feels great, but I think removing one of the non-boss stages from each cycle would go a long way. So maybe 3 stages total instead of 4 for each cycle (2 stages of adds + 1 boss = 1 cycle.) The base pop starts to feel really tedious having to do the same 3 pack formula over and over to get to the bosses.

The difficulty ramp up from arc 1 > arc 2 > arc 3 > etc. feels good I think. And through the smaller increments as well. It just takes too long to progress through them.

Also, someone tested and noticed that the bosses in the arc have a pattern of 9100, 18200, 27300, and 36400 resistances. And the Marauder's that drop in also have 36400 resistances. This is especially out of whack with the rest of the adds that accompany the Marauder as they only have 9100 resistance. So essentially you have to build for WAY over pen on all of the adds on the off chance that the Marauder drops in. I'm not sure if this is intentional but thought it was worth bringing up at least in case it isn't.

code65536

So maybe 3 stages total instead of 4 for each cycle (2 stages of adds + 1 boss = 1 cycle.)

Yes, please.

Necrotech_Master

thats the only part that ive been wondering about, is the amount of time its going to take to do a run, 3-4 hours does seem pretty excessive, thats usually longer than most prog runs for a moderately experienced group doing vet trials, or other hard content like vBRP, or HM DLC dungeons

CameraBeardThePirate

I think this would be an excellent change. I haven't played EA yet myself (my poor SSD can't handle PTS) but I have been watching streamers play and I am very excited for it.

That being said, I worry that the length of runs will turn the EA into tedium after a while. Shortening each Arc would allow players to do more runs during a play session. As a result, you'd get to experience more of the randomness and uniqueness of each run (one of the most appealing aspects of EA in my opinion).

Jaimeh

3-5 hours are way too long for a session, not just finding the time, but sitting through that for so long. Not to mention it will be hard coordinating with another person if it requires that much time. I think this will hurt the replayability of the content and also like someone said above, shorter runs means we get to experience more of the RNG buffing of the system, which sounds like one of the fun aspects in the archive.

Lykeion

I agree. I've only run Endless Archive on pts once, but it's already starting to bore me. I don't know how I'm going to play this mode over and over again.

skinnycheeks

(btw credit to GoAvs for going in and testing the resistances with the 2h ult)

Arthtur

I think we need an option to start 2 Arcs before the highest Arc we got to. So if we got to the 6th Arc we can start at 4th Arc. It would help with:
- Reduce the time of the runs (it would still need additional changes tho)
- Reduce amount of RNG in leaderboards. For example somebody got to the 7 Arc and got only easy bosses on the way while other person got only to the 6th arc because he got multiple Marauders and hard bosses. It could be... irritating. If somebody cares about leaderboards of course. With this change it would be "How far can u get in a week" instead of "Get lucky with easy bosses so u can get far"
- Veteran players would be a lot happier as they would be able to start in more challenging parts.

We would need to get to choose all passive buffs we would get for skipped bosses tho. As otherwise it wouldnt be fair.

And i think this is a critical issue. That amount of time spend in a single run is just too much. I cant rly imagine myself running it too many times as its just too long.

SkaraMinoc

Once you've reached an Arc, it should unlock for all future runs. In other words, when you return the next day you should have the option to port straight to the beginning of the furthest Arc you've reached. Why should I have to spend hours on easy content that I've already beaten and have no desire to ever play again?

XSTRONG

Funny how people thinks the "Endless" Archive takes to long

OolongSnakeTea

Super agree with this. I can't power game for 3-4 hours like some of these yongsters can. But I can perform what it takes to get deep clears if there was a way it'd save my progression. Its not like vMA or vVH that saves but are also clear in sight objectives to an end and can be beaten sub 45min.

Alphawolf01A

XSTRONG wrote: »

Funny how people thinks the "Endless" Archive takes to long

I guess "forever" isn't as long as it used to be.

J18696

Yeah I would honestly be happy with like 2 trash rooms then a boss the amount of trash you end up fighting in arc5+ with nearly 500k hp each is such a slog especially solo

AlwaysDancing

Alphawolf01A wrote: »

XSTRONG wrote: »

Funny how people thinks the "Endless" Archive takes to long

I guess "forever" isn't as long as it used to be.

Kids these days don't have the patience for Eternity.

luchtt

To add to this, Marauders are severely overtuned in later arcs. Marauders in arc 7 feel like they belong in arc 9 tbh, and arc 5 in arc 7. I wouldn't be surprised if, when we reach arc 8-9-10 etc, I just need my tank to run a full infinite magma shell build because its just gonna be impossible to survive without something like that. bro gets 80% of his hp chunked each light attack alone.

I think the biggest problem isn't that the progression takes long. It's that the ''fun'' part only starts 3-5 hours in. The early cycles/arcs are really boring, so having essentially only 2 wipes to try the fun stuff, after working for 4 hours to get there, its basically impossible to run this more than once a day sadly.

I would suggest the best way to overcome this without destroying the balance, is to add an unlockable upgrade (like the verses/vision upgrade ones, and extra choices) where you (if all players who start the run have the achievement) can click on the start run interactable and get a few options. ''Start run at arc 3, arc 5, arc 7'' if you have the achievement for reaching like 1-2 arcs higher than it maybe? Vision choices would be difficult to balance here though.

I think a more elegant solution would be to have an upgrade which removes, or combines trash pools/stages which you can optionally activate when starting the run. This would make it so you can do the early arcs much much faster.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

I’d be fine with either having it save progression if the player has to leave/log off, or the Stardew Valley mine-style that lets you jump to an arch once you ‘unlock’ it by reaching it the first time. But as it stands, I’m probably never going to get past arch 2-3 because that’s when I run out of time to play.

Quethrosar

endless should be endless and not so much about getting harder exponentially. progress should be saveable but not shareable, meaning if you are solo you can go where you left off, if you are the same duo, you can go where you left off.

kojou

I would argue that 1 stage of adds per boss is plenty, but make it spawn 2 or 3 stages worth of things to kill. Part of my problem is that it takes longer to select a new verse than it does to clear a stage.

RaptorRodeoGod

Maybe they could add an achievement buff that lets you skip add rounds? So you can go straight from boss to boss?

Or maybe make a couple different modes. One that's only boss rounds, and one thats only add rounds?

Luke_Flamesword

Wow, 3-5 hours of non-savable content? What a great design choice...

valenwood_vegan

Yeah maybe just end leaderboard progress if someone leaves (I mean I personally couldn't possibly care less about the leaderboard part anyway), but let them at least save their endless archive progress and continue from a later arc... or maybe speed up the early arcs / allow them to be skipped if one has completed them in the past?

There is no possible situation *ever* where I am going to spend 3+ hours in a row doing one activity in a video game, and there are absolutely other people like me who are unable to devote that kind of time to a game in one sitting... so the current design would seem to be limiting some portion of the playerbase to never have any opportunity to go beyond the first couple of arcs.

I hope it doesn't end up this way.

Aislinna

The concept of an endless arena means that a player decides when they quit, if they do not die; If you don't want to play for 5 hours, don't. It's not like "if I play for 1 more hour, I'll complete it" like you would in a progressive dungeon/trial trifecta attempt. And just like other progressive attempts, you start over at the beginning same as you do in this progressive arena, getting better and faster each time as you master the mechanics of each random level, allowing you to reach harder levels.

valenwood_vegan

I do understand the concept of endless, but my feedback stands - that just repeating the first few arcs over and over again forever (with the limiting factor being time available in one sitting, rather than skill level) and never having time to get to more challenging arcs sounds quite uninteresting.

Edit: I think this quote from up above maybe communicates the issue better than I'm doing...

luchtt wrote: »

I think the biggest problem isn't that the progression takes long. It's that the ''fun'' part only starts 3-5 hours in. The early cycles/arcs are really boring, so having essentially only 2 wipes to try the fun stuff, after working for 4 hours to get there, its basically impossible to run this more than once a day sadly.

acastanza_ESO

Strong agree, the Archive only really gets interesting after you've fought Tho'at for the first time, but by that point you've spent an hour, two hours, there. At least let us get a random selection of buff choices and skip straight to that first Tho'at fight after we've done the intro once.

XSTRONG

Reading this im thinking a Endless Archive mode where you dont compete on leaderbords and you dont earn any currency would be good for the players who think the dungeon is to slow.

I think there are alot of players newer, non veteran players etc that appreciate that Endless Archive dont get to hard to quick.

Elvenheart

Personally, like a lot of others I’m for some way, such as after earning an achievement, you have the option to start further into the arena. I’m also for the suggested option that after dying 3 times your leaderboard progress stops but you are allowed to keep playing in that session so you can keep trying to learn how to beat the boss that killed you so you’ll know for the next new session.

Dagoth_Rac

Aislinna wrote: »

The concept of an endless arena means that a player decides when they quit, if they do not die; If you don't want to play for 5 hours, don't. It's not like "if I play for 1 more hour, I'll complete it" like you would in a progressive dungeon/trial trifecta attempt. And just like other progressive attempts, you start over at the beginning same as you do in this progressive arena, getting better and faster each time as you master the mechanics of each random level, allowing you to reach harder levels.

I would agree if what people were asking for was the equivalent of, "It is annoying that my progression group has to clear Zhaj'hassa every time in Maw of Lorkhaj. We have Zhaj'hassa down pat! Can't we jump straight to the Twins fight?? That is where we are stuck!" That is being kind of whiny. For a progression guild, it does not really take very long to get to the part where the real progression is currently taking place. And once you get there, you can spend all night. Imagine if it took all night to get to the Twins. Then you only got to wipe three times to the Twins before you had to start all over?

Or another example: Endless Archive feels like, "We added a new Veteran Hard Mode of Dragonstar Arena! You have to complete Normal Dragonstar, then Veteran Dragonstar, and then you get taken to Veteran Hard Mode Dragonstar! All in one sitting! And you only get to die 3 times on Veteran Hard Mode Dragonstar. Then you have to start all over from the beginning of Normal Dragonstar! Doesn't that sound like fun?"

People like progression. But they want to spend some nominal amount of time getting back to where they are stuck, and then spending a lot of time working on the part that is challenging them. They don't want to spend hours getting back to where they were stuck, just to fight that boss and wipe a few times in the course of 5 minutes, then have to start all over again.

There is fun, engaging progression. And then there is cruel, punishing progression. Endless Archive is leaning a lot more to the latter.

ZOS_Kevin

Hi all, thanks for the feedback here. We'll make sure to pass this on to the Infinite Archive team. Appreciate everyone's feedback regarding progression rate. And if you have more feedback on this topic, please continue to add it to this thread.

NoxiousBlight

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the feedback here. We'll make sure to pass this on to the Endless Archive team. Appreciate everyone's feedback regarding progression rate. And if you have more feedback on this topic, please continue to add it to this thread.

Just wanted to add my voice that the "grind" to get to the run-ending stuff is too long. A three hour run should be the run of a lifetime - not the norm.

The trash pack rounds need to be reduced between bosses, there needs to be a quest that saves your progress, or there needs to be the ability to skip to Arc 2 or 3 after you have gotten to a certain point.

Any one of these would take EA from a great concept to a great execution.

Wildberryjack

Being able to save progress might solve the time issue. Of course that knocks you off the leaderboard but many won't care about that.

majulook

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Wow, 3-5 hours of non-savable content? What a great design choice...

Typical of this game. Give something the sounds like fun, then make it tedious.

3-5 hours of non-savable content sounds like a job not a game.