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The DK Class Set is the Single Most Overpowered Set Ever Created
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boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »@Galeriano I think you're the one overthinking it. Giving DKs major and minor heroism is a terrible idea. Whether or not it's the most OP set ever is really unimportant. You're arguing with a clickbait title instead of focusing on the subject matter.
Thing is DK already have acces to both. It was already given to a DK long time ago.
Everyone keeps saying "BuT iTs aLReAdy pOsSible tO GeT THosE bUffs!!"
The problem is that this new set gives those buffs at an extremely high uptime, alongside another extremely powerful unnamed buff, without having to sacrifice your potions or a CP star.
Nah not everyopne keeps saying that. Problem with new set is that heroism uptime gets lower the less experienced player uses it.
So no reponse to my very legitimate question, huh?1 -
TechMaybeHic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You'd have to be really inexperienced to not hit an earthen heart ability on that bar every 20 seconds. I mean, you probably have a hard time keeping your class major resolve buff or major brutality/sorcery buff up at that point4 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »@Galeriano I think you're the one overthinking it. Giving DKs major and minor heroism is a terrible idea. Whether or not it's the most OP set ever is really unimportant. You're arguing with a clickbait title instead of focusing on the subject matter.
Thing is DK already have acces to both. It was already given to a DK long time ago.
Everyone keeps saying "BuT iTs aLReAdy pOsSible tO GeT THosE bUffs!!"
The problem is that this new set gives those buffs at an extremely high uptime, alongside another extremely powerful unnamed buff, without having to sacrifice your potions or a CP star.
Nah not everyopne keeps saying that. Problem with new set is that heroism uptime gets lower the less experienced player uses it.
So no reponse to my very legitimate question, huh?
Which question excatly? The one about meta shift? If yes than please define what do You ean by meta shift. If You mean will people start using this new set than yes there will be definietly people doing that but if You are talking will this new set introduce ways to play a DK that people will lean towards than no since You can already do better with existing setups. At worst more people will be doing what many already does.Edited by Galeriano on September 22, 2023 8:31AM0 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Galeriano I think you're the one overthinking it. Giving DKs major and minor heroism is a terrible idea. Whether or not it's the most OP set ever is really unimportant. You're arguing with a clickbait title instead of focusing on the subject matter.
Thing is DK already have acces to both. It was already given to a DK long time ago.
You mean "added to the game." Like for everyone to have. Heroism wasn't "given to DK" until right now.
Daedric Trickery gives you major heroism randomly. And everyone can use it.
This is a huge step in the wrong direction. The only thing harder to imagine than the devs putting this in the game is people actually defending it.
This is where I'd normally get kinda upset and type a whole lot trying to make you see reason. But the whole thing is so laughable I just can't.
You either know or you don't. -shrug-
This conversation is specifically about DK which is why I said "it was already given to a DK". Although trickery gives buffs randomly uptime of each one is high enough to call trickery reliable source of said buffs. I am not really defending the set I even said it's a dissapointing set because it doesn't bring anything new and I also said it's a strong set.
My point is that it's not as strong as many people tries to make it. Me personally (mostly solo and small scale PvPer) if I would want to min max a DK in next patch I wouldn't run it. In all honesty it's less reliable than trickery with the restriction of staying on one specific bar as long as You can. There are situations where it's possible and easy to do like being in a zerg for example but there will be situations where than can be a problem like being under pressure and in need to go into defense for longer. 14% healing is nice but trickery buffs will just eat this set alive at that point. Really good sets are the ones that remain strong, reliable and unscathed when it gets harder.Edited by Galeriano on September 22, 2023 8:52AM0 -
Four_Fingers✭✭✭✭✭
✭You know they are going to bring out more class sets.
Maybe next time DK will get a weaker set and another class will get a stronger set.
But honestly after trying the set on PTS, I am sticking with my current build.
In lag bar swapping is often unreliable.
Edited by Four_Fingers on September 22, 2023 1:32PM0 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »@Galeriano I think you're the one overthinking it. Giving DKs major and minor heroism is a terrible idea. Whether or not it's the most OP set ever is really unimportant. You're arguing with a clickbait title instead of focusing on the subject matter.
Thing is DK already have acces to both. It was already given to a DK long time ago.
Everyone keeps saying "BuT iTs aLReAdy pOsSible tO GeT THosE bUffs!!"
The problem is that this new set gives those buffs at an extremely high uptime, alongside another extremely powerful unnamed buff, without having to sacrifice your potions or a CP star.
Nah not everyopne keeps saying that. Problem with new set is that heroism uptime gets lower the less experienced player uses it.
So no reponse to my very legitimate question, huh?
Which question excatly? The one about meta shift? If yes than please define what do You ean by meta shift. If You mean will people start using this new set than yes there will be definietly people doing that but if You are talking will this new set introduce ways to play a DK that people will lean towards than no since You can already do better with existing setups. At worst more people will be doing what many already does.
This is a semantic argument yet again. The meta meaning a set that becomes a dominant as a result of it being extremely powerful in many of situations as well as being both public knowledge and relatively accessible. You know as well as i do that BiS is not the same in all situations, not for pvp and not for pve. Many are BiS situationally. Coral riptide is meta for arcs in pve, it is not used in all content with them and neither is nirn as an example in fact deadly is used way more then nirn in content. Elfbane is meta for solo tanking trials but is not in most other cases. How can so "many" people be using trickery and while it is simultaneously "slept on"? Is that not a contradiction?Edited by boi_anachronism_ on September 22, 2023 2:16PM2 -
SandandStars✭✭✭✭✭What the set does best is provide a clear indication of the dev team’s understanding of pvp class balance.1 -
Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭If these sets aren't OP noone is going to spend the time farming for them in endless archive. The DK set is fine, the other sets need to be improved so that they're worth chasing also.1 -
Twohothardware wrote: »If these sets aren't OP noone is going to spend the time farming for them in endless archive. The DK set is fine, the other sets need to be improved so that they're worth chasing also.
Example being, Drake's Rush.
It gives Major Heroism on a bash. Nobody uses it. Why that ? 12 seconds of operation, 18 seconds cooldown. So it works 12 seconds (8 ticks) and then loses time for 6 seconds (4 ticks). Completely mindless."Is it true her wounds healed on their own ? Yes" No s***, at 75% health regen penalty!
I was a vampire like you, but then I took an idea to the head...0 -
mmtaniac✭✭✭✭✭What is bash? No one care about bash, i bash only in pve ,in pvp maybe 1 from 1000 games have a chance to bash things.0 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭fxeconomisteb17_ESO wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »If these sets aren't OP noone is going to spend the time farming for them in endless archive. The DK set is fine, the other sets need to be improved so that they're worth chasing also.
Example being, Drake's Rush.
It gives Major Heroism on a bash. Nobody uses it. Why that ? 12 seconds of operation, 18 seconds cooldown. So it works 12 seconds (8 ticks) and then loses time for 6 seconds (4 ticks). Completely mindless.
In organised 4 man groups people are using it.0 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »@Galeriano I think you're the one overthinking it. Giving DKs major and minor heroism is a terrible idea. Whether or not it's the most OP set ever is really unimportant. You're arguing with a clickbait title instead of focusing on the subject matter.
Thing is DK already have acces to both. It was already given to a DK long time ago.
Everyone keeps saying "BuT iTs aLReAdy pOsSible tO GeT THosE bUffs!!"
The problem is that this new set gives those buffs at an extremely high uptime, alongside another extremely powerful unnamed buff, without having to sacrifice your potions or a CP star.
Nah not everyopne keeps saying that. Problem with new set is that heroism uptime gets lower the less experienced player uses it.
So no reponse to my very legitimate question, huh?
Which question excatly? The one about meta shift? If yes than please define what do You ean by meta shift. If You mean will people start using this new set than yes there will be definietly people doing that but if You are talking will this new set introduce ways to play a DK that people will lean towards than no since You can already do better with existing setups. At worst more people will be doing what many already does.
This is a semantic argument yet again. The meta meaning a set that becomes a dominant as a result of it being extremely powerful in many of situations as well as being both public knowledge and relatively accessible. You know as well as i do that BiS is not the same in all situations, not for pvp and not for pve. Many are BiS situationally. Coral riptide is meta for arcs in pve, it is not used in all content with them and neither is nirn as an example in fact deadly is used way more then nirn in content. Elfbane is meta for solo tanking trials but is not in most other cases. How can so "many" people be using trickery and while it is simultaneously "slept on"? Is that not a contradiction?
So what is a meta and what is a BiS because You kinda contradict Yourself with phrasing used to describe both of them. And What excatly is a meta shift?
Also please show me excatly where i said or suggested that "so "many" people is using trickery".0 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »@Galeriano I think you're the one overthinking it. Giving DKs major and minor heroism is a terrible idea. Whether or not it's the most OP set ever is really unimportant. You're arguing with a clickbait title instead of focusing on the subject matter.
Thing is DK already have acces to both. It was already given to a DK long time ago.
Everyone keeps saying "BuT iTs aLReAdy pOsSible tO GeT THosE bUffs!!"
The problem is that this new set gives those buffs at an extremely high uptime, alongside another extremely powerful unnamed buff, without having to sacrifice your potions or a CP star.
Nah not everyopne keeps saying that. Problem with new set is that heroism uptime gets lower the less experienced player uses it.
So no reponse to my very legitimate question, huh?
Which question excatly? The one about meta shift? If yes than please define what do You ean by meta shift. If You mean will people start using this new set than yes there will be definietly people doing that but if You are talking will this new set introduce ways to play a DK that people will lean towards than no since You can already do better with existing setups. At worst more people will be doing what many already does.
This is a semantic argument yet again. The meta meaning a set that becomes a dominant as a result of it being extremely powerful in many of situations as well as being both public knowledge and relatively accessible. You know as well as i do that BiS is not the same in all situations, not for pvp and not for pve. Many are BiS situationally. Coral riptide is meta for arcs in pve, it is not used in all content with them and neither is nirn as an example in fact deadly is used way more then nirn in content. Elfbane is meta for solo tanking trials but is not in most other cases. How can so "many" people be using trickery and while it is simultaneously "slept on"? Is that not a contradiction?
So what is a meta and what is a BiS because You kinda contradict Yourself with phrasing used to describe both of them. And What excatly is a meta shift?
Also please show me excatly where i said or suggested that "so "many" people is using trickery".
Semantics semantics. Stop playing dumb dude. Its so transparent. I explained what the meta is. Clearly. You are insinuating that a BiS or best in slot set (objectively or mathematically stronger) exists already so this set would not be an issue otherwise the one you are suggesting would be more dominant. The meta is whats dominant and extremely powerful not always best in slot. Thats a fallacy and a fairly obvious one for numerous reasons i dont have the energy to rehash. Im not even going to address the "what is a meta shift" as thats clearly baiting. If you have played through more then a few patches you know exactly what that is.
"At worst more people will be doing what many already does" considering you outlined that the set you are speaking about does the same thing that the new one does it is a thinly vailed attempt to say that many people are already using this setup that you are talking about.
More people will be doing is the key. A lot more. An overwhelming amount more. Even though you pretend, poorly i might add, to miss the point you actually hit the nail on the head.
Thankfully for once people actually listened. Was pretty obvious that it was a concern to a lot of people and they looked at it.3 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »@Galeriano I think you're the one overthinking it. Giving DKs major and minor heroism is a terrible idea. Whether or not it's the most OP set ever is really unimportant. You're arguing with a clickbait title instead of focusing on the subject matter.
Thing is DK already have acces to both. It was already given to a DK long time ago.
Everyone keeps saying "BuT iTs aLReAdy pOsSible tO GeT THosE bUffs!!"
The problem is that this new set gives those buffs at an extremely high uptime, alongside another extremely powerful unnamed buff, without having to sacrifice your potions or a CP star.
Nah not everyopne keeps saying that. Problem with new set is that heroism uptime gets lower the less experienced player uses it.
So no reponse to my very legitimate question, huh?
Which question excatly? The one about meta shift? If yes than please define what do You ean by meta shift. If You mean will people start using this new set than yes there will be definietly people doing that but if You are talking will this new set introduce ways to play a DK that people will lean towards than no since You can already do better with existing setups. At worst more people will be doing what many already does.
This is a semantic argument yet again. The meta meaning a set that becomes a dominant as a result of it being extremely powerful in many of situations as well as being both public knowledge and relatively accessible. You know as well as i do that BiS is not the same in all situations, not for pvp and not for pve. Many are BiS situationally. Coral riptide is meta for arcs in pve, it is not used in all content with them and neither is nirn as an example in fact deadly is used way more then nirn in content. Elfbane is meta for solo tanking trials but is not in most other cases. How can so "many" people be using trickery and while it is simultaneously "slept on"? Is that not a contradiction?
So what is a meta and what is a BiS because You kinda contradict Yourself with phrasing used to describe both of them. And What excatly is a meta shift?
Also please show me excatly where i said or suggested that "so "many" people is using trickery".
Semantics semantics. Stop playing dumb dude. Its so transparent. I explained what the meta is. Clearly. You are insinuating that a BiS or best in slot set (objectively or mathematically stronger) exists already so this set would not be an issue otherwise the one you are suggesting would be more dominant. The meta is whats dominant and extremely powerful not always best in slot. Thats a fallacy and a fairly obvious one for numerous reasons i dont have the energy to rehash. Im not even going to address the "what is a meta shift" as thats clearly baiting. If you have played through more then a few patches you know exactly what that is.
"At worst more people will be doing what many already does" considering you outlined that the set you are speaking about does the same thing that the new one does it is a thinly vailed attempt to say that many people are already using this setup that you are talking about.
More people will be doing is the key. A lot more. An overwhelming amount more. Even though you pretend, poorly i might add, to miss the point you actually hit the nail on the head.
Thankfully for once people actually listened. Was pretty obvious that it was a concern to a lot of people and they looked at it.
No You didn't. You just presented what meta means for You and quite frankly You contradicted that meaning right after. You kinda shot Yourself in the foot with the phrasing You're using. For example You are claiming elf bane is a meta for solo tanking trials but if by meta You mean what is dominant than elf bane is far from being meta since it's being used by a small amount of very experienced DK tanks in very specific encounters so it's not dominant since overwhelming majority of tanks do not use it even in the same encounters. So is meta the most popular , most dominant choice or the strongest possible choice? Your definition of meta in that particular example leans torward to what is the strongest when used properly but in that case trickery is and would still be a meta because even if used by less people than new DK set, it would still produce best results possible similar to how elf bane works atm. You choose whatever self created definition of meta fits You.
You kinda put meaning of my words into my mouth. I never suggested that word "many" I used reffers to very significant amount of playerbase. There is no contradiction is the fact that despite that many people is using trickery atm it's still a set that is being slept on. Similar things happened in the past to sets like for example mechanical acuity when more experienced PvE players were using that set and pushing new top scores in trials for over a month when rest of the playerbase was not even considering running with it. Was that set a meta at that point by Your definition?
The real key is will those people be effective. The answer is no. Most people suck at PvP no matter what they're wearing. Fact that more people will be doing something doesn't mean they will be effective at doing it and that is the most important factor. Also when I said that more people will be doing what many already does I was reffering to a brawler type of playstyle which is already quite popular amongst DKs so I wouldn't say this set would cause "overwhelming amount" of DK switching to that particular playstyle since they are already playing it. I would reccomend You to ask what someone meant before creating Your own narration based on Your misunderstanding of his/her words. This is also why I am asking You what do You mean when using specific phrases. It's not a bait it's genuine question to avoid confusion which You seem to stomp on quite often.
Well since they've made two changes for a DK which was nerfing the set and corrosive, this set will be moved from somewhat strong into mediocre category. Not that it really matters since trickery is and will be stronger and would be anyway even with that set unscathed. It's just a way better option for a brawler DK.Edited by Galeriano on September 26, 2023 12:32PM2 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »@Galeriano I think you're the one overthinking it. Giving DKs major and minor heroism is a terrible idea. Whether or not it's the most OP set ever is really unimportant. You're arguing with a clickbait title instead of focusing on the subject matter.
Thing is DK already have acces to both. It was already given to a DK long time ago.
Everyone keeps saying "BuT iTs aLReAdy pOsSible tO GeT THosE bUffs!!"
The problem is that this new set gives those buffs at an extremely high uptime, alongside another extremely powerful unnamed buff, without having to sacrifice your potions or a CP star.
Nah not everyopne keeps saying that. Problem with new set is that heroism uptime gets lower the less experienced player uses it.
So no reponse to my very legitimate question, huh?
Which question excatly? The one about meta shift? If yes than please define what do You ean by meta shift. If You mean will people start using this new set than yes there will be definietly people doing that but if You are talking will this new set introduce ways to play a DK that people will lean towards than no since You can already do better with existing setups. At worst more people will be doing what many already does.
This is a semantic argument yet again. The meta meaning a set that becomes a dominant as a result of it being extremely powerful in many of situations as well as being both public knowledge and relatively accessible. You know as well as i do that BiS is not the same in all situations, not for pvp and not for pve. Many are BiS situationally. Coral riptide is meta for arcs in pve, it is not used in all content with them and neither is nirn as an example in fact deadly is used way more then nirn in content. Elfbane is meta for solo tanking trials but is not in most other cases. How can so "many" people be using trickery and while it is simultaneously "slept on"? Is that not a contradiction?
So what is a meta and what is a BiS because You kinda contradict Yourself with phrasing used to describe both of them. And What excatly is a meta shift?
Also please show me excatly where i said or suggested that "so "many" people is using trickery".
Semantics semantics. Stop playing dumb dude. Its so transparent. I explained what the meta is. Clearly. You are insinuating that a BiS or best in slot set (objectively or mathematically stronger) exists already so this set would not be an issue otherwise the one you are suggesting would be more dominant. The meta is whats dominant and extremely powerful not always best in slot. Thats a fallacy and a fairly obvious one for numerous reasons i dont have the energy to rehash. Im not even going to address the "what is a meta shift" as thats clearly baiting. If you have played through more then a few patches you know exactly what that is.
"At worst more people will be doing what many already does" considering you outlined that the set you are speaking about does the same thing that the new one does it is a thinly vailed attempt to say that many people are already using this setup that you are talking about.
More people will be doing is the key. A lot more. An overwhelming amount more. Even though you pretend, poorly i might add, to miss the point you actually hit the nail on the head.
Thankfully for once people actually listened. Was pretty obvious that it was a concern to a lot of people and they looked at it.
No You didn't. You just presented what meta means for You and quite frankly You contradicted that meaning right after. You kinda shot Yourself in the foot with the phrasing You're using. For example You are claiming elf bane is a meta for solo tanking trials but if by meta You mean what is dominant than elf bane is far from being meta since it's being used by a small amount of very experienced DK tanks in very specific encounters so it's not dominant since overwhelming majority of tanks do not use it even in the same encounters. So is meta the most popular , most dominant choice or the strongest possible choice? Your definition of meta in that particular example leans torward to what is the strongest when used properly but in that case trickery is and would still be a meta because even if used by less people than new DK set, it would still produce best results possible similar to how elf bane works atm. You choose whatever self created definition of meta fits You.
You kinda put meaning of my words into my mouth. I never suggested that word "many" I used reffers to very significant amount of playerbase. There is no contradiction is the fact that despite that many people is using trickery atm it's still a set that is being slept on. Similar things happened in the past to sets like for example mechanical acuity when more experienced PvE players were using that set and pushing new top scores in trials for over a month when rest of the playerbase was not even considering running with it. Was that set a meta at that point by Your definition?
The real key is will those people be effective. The answer is no. Most people suck at PvP no matter what they're wearing. Fact that more people will be doing something doesn't mean they will be effective at doing it and that is the most important factor. Also when I said that more people will be doing what many already does I was reffering to a brawler type of playstyle which is already quite popular amongst DKs so I wouldn't say this set would cause "overwhelming amount" of DK switching to that particular playstyle since they are already playing it. I would reccomend You to ask what someone meant before creating Your own narration based on Your misunderstanding of his/her words. This is also why I am asking You what do You mean when using specific phrases. It's not a bait it's genuine question to avoid confusion which You seem to stomp on quite often.
Well since they've made two changes for a DK which was nerfing the set and corrosive, this set will be moved from somewhat strong into mediocre category. Not that it really matters since trickery is and will be stronger and would be anyway even with that set unscathed. It's just a way better option for a brawler DK.
In the same way that new players took off with the dk tank meta and suddenly became decent players after not being that great? Admitted openly by many players i have seen on the forums. Same with vat 2h and marsalock? Come on now. It would have obviously given newer players a leg up. And yes i interchanged a phrasing by accident so i will give you that, elfbane is considered bis for endgame solo tanks. However i was painfully clear in what the definition was at the get go. You took a mistep in phrasing and tried to shift the entire meaning of my argument. you are wrong in that being a personal opinion of what constitutes the meta. Do we not have a tank meta with this style of play being run so much or the vat situation? Many people would argue this point and have, the tank meta being a topic of discource and complaint for months. There are even now threads about it on the forums at this moment and how these buids and sets are overperforming and being overused as a result to the point that it is unbalancing pvp which was my entire point clearly. For someone who argues that im actively trying to misinterpret their argument this is a pot calling the kettle black situation if ive ever seen one. Look, it was pretty obvious to a lot of people that this would create enough of an imbalance that it needed to be addressed and obviously the developers found enough validity in those claims to address it even if you refuse to recognize it.
Thats pretty much the end of the conversation. Im not going to respond to this thread any further as the op's concerns have offically already been addressed by the dev team and there is no further need to continue this topic since is now all theoretical and a moot point. By all means though, if you wish to continue to scream into the void have at it.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on September 26, 2023 3:21PM1
