The DK Class Set is the Single Most Overpowered Set Ever Created

Galeriano

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

danko355 wrote: »

I disagree

Found the DK main.

DK mains actually know this set is not as OP as everyone makes it to look. It's strong yes but not some G god OP mode mode or strongesr in the history like some people are claiming. High ulti gen and high healing playstyle is already present in the game and was possible since quite some time with daedric trickery and heroism pots or with someone in a group using drake's rush set. This set is not bringing anything that wasn't existing already.

Wait so using your logic, this is all okay because this combination of highly sought after bonuses for DKs was already obtainable, except now it's even easier on 1 set instead of multiple sources..

1. Don't need to use a specific potion, you can earn other bonuses.
2. The back bar bonuses are unnamed, so they stack with named healing buffs.
3. Daedric Trickery is strong, but it has inconsistency built into it due to the random nature of it. It's strongest point was the major heroism, which is now guaranteed on this new set.
4. Daedric Trickery has bad 2-4 piece bonuses.
5. You can't stack the front and back bar bonuses, but it doesn't really matter because they do what you need when you need them most. Front bar offense, back bar defence. This is one of the reasons sets like Heartland Conquerer were popular, they are both perfect for pvp as a 2 for 1 set.

Admittedly I haven't played for a long time, so maybe I'm wrong, but it seems pretty obviously 1 of the stronger sets offering the most sought after bonuses DK chase in a set that can be slotted on 1 bar, yet work on both bars with different effects for when you need them most at 100% uptime. Heartland Conquerer at least had to be slotted on front/back. Daedric Trickery is random. Potions are potions.

Nope. My logic is that not much is changing other than a fact that playing with high ulti gen will be more obtainable for masses who couldn;t afford heroism pots but the playstyle itself that new set is promoting is alrady existing and to be fair current itteration of it is stronger. I am not saying this new set isn;t good but I am against an idea that it's "the Single Most Overpowered Set Ever Created", because it's not. It's just a good set to run solo because in a group You can get even higher ulti gens when built properly and when it comes to running solo trickery+heroism pots is still better.

People sleep on trickery big time because many of them don't understand math behind it. Most of people think that if You get 1 out of 5 buffs randomly it will round up average uptime of each buff to 20% but this set proc durartion is 2,3x longer than it's proc cooldown average uptime of each buff over 40% and You will always have atleast 2 buffs active at the same time and sometimes for few seconds even 3 buffs will be active. You can't loose on that set no matter what buffs You are currently having.

As for the points You've made
1. I agree it will make high ulti gen setups more accesible for masses but that is actually a good thing. it's not like many DKs is good enough to benefit greatly from it anyway
2. Yes they are unnamed but standard PvP DK is not getting them anyway especially in solo play which as I've said already is the main place this set is good for so it's not like this set will have acces to 14% healing and other buffs that trickery provides.
3. Trickery is inconsistent only if You expect for it to provide You with something at any specific moment but that is very incorrect way to look at this set. If You average up everything it provides You literally can't loose with this set no matter what it gives You. Even if You are in offense and You get 2x healing buffs it's still a massive wim because if enemy will try to shift the tables You will shrug this attempt in an instant.
4. It have ok 2-4 piece bonuses same as this new set.
5. back bar offense front bar defense is kinda a oversimplification. Realistically it's nice to have both whatever bar You are in. For example if You will be pushed heavily into defense on that new set Your ulti gen will drop down to zero while with triockery+heroism pot it will be still on a decent level if You will on the other hand be having bunch of DoTs on You while in Your offense that new set healing buff will be doing nothing for You when trickery will have a chance to emp Your ghealing and help to counter DoTs just with HoTs allowing for more pressure on the enemy.

Let's just make some pure theoretical math and assume in fights You will be getting something around 60/40 split between Your back bar and front bar. That means 60% uptime on major and minor heroism and 40% uptime on 14% healing so realistically You will be getting 1,6 ulti per sec and 5,6% more healing done. With trickery+heroism pot assuming the same back bar/front bar ratio and perfect split of 40% uptime on each trickery buff with 100% uptime on minor heroism from pot You will be able to get 1,47 ult per sec, 6,4% more healing done, 6,4% more healing recived, 4% more dmg reduction and 12% more speed. It's almost the same average ulti gain but so much more healing, more defense and more mobility.

fxeconomisteb17_ESO

See, this is the thing. Balance is what destroys games. It sucks the fun out of them.

I played Freelancer for about 10 years, but it was never as fun as in 2006. And sadly, Starfield barely has any space part in it...

But anyway, I played a lot of mods. The one I played in 2006, Tekagi's Treasure, used to have 30 players active on server at all time. During that autumn, and continuing in 2007, modders balanced it so much, that in two years it lost all players.

Crossfire, perhaps the most known Freelancer mod after Discovery, was very much an eye candy. Updated, next gen graphics and very hard space battles. But it was balanced. I used to play it time to time, and every time I've been there I've seen less and less people, until it gotten pretty much deserted. There was a strong balance linking armor and maneuverability. Every gain in armor on a ship was payed in premium with lost maneuverability. For this reason, it was on a sinking path and it didn't recover. Maybe I should check the last version.

So this is the problem: balance is not fun. I would rather see an equal disbalance here between classes.

But the best tank that survives a wipe will always be funnier than the best damager and the best healer.

The DK is there to stand and revive the team when Hakgrym mops the floor with them.

And this is what upsets.

Urzigurumash

fxeconomisteb17_ESO wrote: »

balance is not fun. I would rather see an equal disbalance here between classes.

Equally vibrant hues rather than the same shade of grey. I agree in theory.

But in this case there seems to be no equivalent vibrance in hues. If in fact this DK set allows near 100% uptime of both Heroisms on both bars, it seems that it is not just the other class sets which fall short in comparison - but nearly every set in the game, given how much power DK gains from Ult Gen.

Back in the day many of us who mained DK ran bothbarred Shalk's or Hist Champ. We gave up 5 slots on both bars just for Minor Heroism alone, during the time when this buff was only otherwise found on Heroic Slash (having been taken off Brawler the same patch Hist Champ was released). Now you can run those sets and get 175 Weapon Damage or 1600 HP - or equip this and instead get Major Heroism - a buff for years accessible only from the Last Stand champion passive.

Are any of these other sets so potentially disruptive to the meta? Do any of these other sets so completely eclipse the power that was available in the past?

But does anybody really want these class sets to be "must slots"? The others all provide some interesting but niche functionality that will only appeal to some. This DK set is a must slot not just for DK - but potentially anybody who wants to maximize their chances of winning in PvP.

Hence the complaints.

fxeconomisteb17_ESO

Urzigurumash wrote: »

fxeconomisteb17_ESO wrote: »

balance is not fun. I would rather see an equal disbalance here between classes.

Are any of these other sets so potentially disruptive to the meta? Do any of these other sets so completely eclipse the power that was available in the past?

But does anybody really want these class sets to be "must slots"? The others all provide some interesting but niche functionality that will only appeal to some. This DK set is a must slot not just for DK - but potentially anybody who wants to maximize their chances of winning in PvP.

Hence the complaints.

There are older sets that are quite on par with Basalt Warrior. Heartland Conqueror would be one which is surclassed, by a bit. And there is another one out there which I wear as a must have on DK. (wink wink)

Never thought about Shalk or Champion of the Hist in the past. Too less, that Minor Heroism, for a 5 piece set.

Indeed, the new sets completely eclipse what was available in the past.

Bad set example : Drake's Rush. Good and straightforward ; get Major Heroism on bash. But having a 6 second gap from ending moment to cooldown expiration ? No no.

The worst example : Transformative Hope. "While in combat, when you heal yourself or an ally that is below 50% Health, you ignite a Spark of Hope within them for 3 seconds. If they are above 90% Health when the effect ends, you and the ally gain Major Heroism for 15 seconds. This effect can occur once every 20 seconds per target."

Not only there is a 5 second gap, but the condition ? Have you ever seen anything more convoluted ?

New sets, right ? The new Transformative Hope, even with a 1 sec less cooldown that Drake's Rush is so gone haywire.

I don't agree with you that the new set is for anyone who wants to maximize their chances in PVP. Like, what, get Rapid Fire sooner ? Or an Elemental Storm ? Is that supposed to maximize your survival in PVP ? Yes, you may kill faster. But there's no guarantee of a better K/D ratio.

boi_anachronism_

Galeriano wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

danko355 wrote: »

I disagree

Found the DK main.

DK mains actually know this set is not as OP as everyone makes it to look. It's strong yes but not some G god OP mode mode or strongesr in the history like some people are claiming. High ulti gen and high healing playstyle is already present in the game and was possible since quite some time with daedric trickery and heroism pots or with someone in a group using drake's rush set. This set is not bringing anything that wasn't existing already.

Wait so using your logic, this is all okay because this combination of highly sought after bonuses for DKs was already obtainable, except now it's even easier on 1 set instead of multiple sources..

1. Don't need to use a specific potion, you can earn other bonuses.
2. The back bar bonuses are unnamed, so they stack with named healing buffs.
3. Daedric Trickery is strong, but it has inconsistency built into it due to the random nature of it. It's strongest point was the major heroism, which is now guaranteed on this new set.
4. Daedric Trickery has bad 2-4 piece bonuses.
5. You can't stack the front and back bar bonuses, but it doesn't really matter because they do what you need when you need them most. Front bar offense, back bar defence. This is one of the reasons sets like Heartland Conquerer were popular, they are both perfect for pvp as a 2 for 1 set.

Admittedly I haven't played for a long time, so maybe I'm wrong, but it seems pretty obviously 1 of the stronger sets offering the most sought after bonuses DK chase in a set that can be slotted on 1 bar, yet work on both bars with different effects for when you need them most at 100% uptime. Heartland Conquerer at least had to be slotted on front/back. Daedric Trickery is random. Potions are potions.

Nope. My logic is that not much is changing other than a fact that playing with high ulti gen will be more obtainable for masses who couldn;t afford heroism pots but the playstyle itself that new set is promoting is alrady existing and to be fair current itteration of it is stronger. I am not saying this new set isn;t good but I am against an idea that it's "the Single Most Overpowered Set Ever Created", because it's not. It's just a good set to run solo because in a group You can get even higher ulti gens when built properly and when it comes to running solo trickery+heroism pots is still better.

People sleep on trickery big time because many of them don't understand math behind it. Most of people think that if You get 1 out of 5 buffs randomly it will round up average uptime of each buff to 20% but this set proc durartion is 2,3x longer than it's proc cooldown average uptime of each buff over 40% and You will always have atleast 2 buffs active at the same time and sometimes for few seconds even 3 buffs will be active. You can't loose on that set no matter what buffs You are currently having.

As for the points You've made
1. I agree it will make high ulti gen setups more accesible for masses but that is actually a good thing. it's not like many DKs is good enough to benefit greatly from it anyway
2. Yes they are unnamed but standard PvP DK is not getting them anyway especially in solo play which as I've said already is the main place this set is good for so it's not like this set will have acces to 14% healing and other buffs that trickery provides.
3. Trickery is inconsistent only if You expect for it to provide You with something at any specific moment but that is very incorrect way to look at this set. If You average up everything it provides You literally can't loose with this set no matter what it gives You. Even if You are in offense and You get 2x healing buffs it's still a massive wim because if enemy will try to shift the tables You will shrug this attempt in an instant.
4. It have ok 2-4 piece bonuses same as this new set.
5. back bar offense front bar defense is kinda a oversimplification. Realistically it's nice to have both whatever bar You are in. For example if You will be pushed heavily into defense on that new set Your ulti gen will drop down to zero while with triockery+heroism pot it will be still on a decent level if You will on the other hand be having bunch of DoTs on You while in Your offense that new set healing buff will be doing nothing for You when trickery will have a chance to emp Your ghealing and help to counter DoTs just with HoTs allowing for more pressure on the enemy.

Let's just make some pure theoretical math and assume in fights You will be getting something around 60/40 split between Your back bar and front bar. That means 60% uptime on major and minor heroism and 40% uptime on 14% healing so realistically You will be getting 1,6 ulti per sec and 5,6% more healing done. With trickery+heroism pot assuming the same back bar/front bar ratio and perfect split of 40% uptime on each trickery buff with 100% uptime on minor heroism from pot You will be able to get 1,47 ult per sec, 6,4% more healing done, 6,4% more healing recived, 4% more dmg reduction and 12% more speed. It's almost the same average ulti gain but so much more healing, more defense and more mobility.

The point though is that you cant depend on a particular outcome when you need it. That is a huge downside not upside. Most people want to be able to plan and not introduce a variable in that way. I dont want mending when im at full health and start attacking someone knowing that with heroism i could place a perfectly timed ulti and i dont want heroism when i do a defensive move that deals some damage.

Additionally heroism pots are obscenely expensive and you have to active them. It also takes your opportunity to use a different pot. I would 100% of the time take a set that i can plan for the outcome, provide myself additional utility and not pay an arm and a leg to use the build. Its a no brainer.

Twohothardware

Outside of Corrosive Armor needing to be reined in this set should be left alone and the rest of the Endless Archive sets brought to it's level.

If these new class specific sets are not BETTER than what is already available then there is no point in adding them to the game. Like why would someone farm for a set that only works on one class and it's average compared to what's already out there. Pointless.

boi_anachronism_

Twohothardware wrote: »

Outside of Corrosive Armor needing to be reined in this set should be left alone and the rest of the Endless Archive sets brought to it's level.

If these new class specific sets are not BETTER than what is already available then there is no point in adding them to the game. Like why would someone farm for a set that only works on one class and it's average compared to what's already out there. Pointless.

And thats fine IF other sets could be competitive not just in power in their own regard but also as it relates to the pvp meta. Otherwise people will understandably be upset. Seeing as how zos tends toward simply releasing unbalanced things and then nerfing them later as opposed to actually balancing other classes to match people are quite dubious about the whole thing.

Galeriano

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

danko355 wrote: »

I disagree

Found the DK main.

DK mains actually know this set is not as OP as everyone makes it to look. It's strong yes but not some G god OP mode mode or strongesr in the history like some people are claiming. High ulti gen and high healing playstyle is already present in the game and was possible since quite some time with daedric trickery and heroism pots or with someone in a group using drake's rush set. This set is not bringing anything that wasn't existing already.

Wait so using your logic, this is all okay because this combination of highly sought after bonuses for DKs was already obtainable, except now it's even easier on 1 set instead of multiple sources..

1. Don't need to use a specific potion, you can earn other bonuses.
2. The back bar bonuses are unnamed, so they stack with named healing buffs.
3. Daedric Trickery is strong, but it has inconsistency built into it due to the random nature of it. It's strongest point was the major heroism, which is now guaranteed on this new set.
4. Daedric Trickery has bad 2-4 piece bonuses.
5. You can't stack the front and back bar bonuses, but it doesn't really matter because they do what you need when you need them most. Front bar offense, back bar defence. This is one of the reasons sets like Heartland Conquerer were popular, they are both perfect for pvp as a 2 for 1 set.

Admittedly I haven't played for a long time, so maybe I'm wrong, but it seems pretty obviously 1 of the stronger sets offering the most sought after bonuses DK chase in a set that can be slotted on 1 bar, yet work on both bars with different effects for when you need them most at 100% uptime. Heartland Conquerer at least had to be slotted on front/back. Daedric Trickery is random. Potions are potions.

Nope. My logic is that not much is changing other than a fact that playing with high ulti gen will be more obtainable for masses who couldn;t afford heroism pots but the playstyle itself that new set is promoting is alrady existing and to be fair current itteration of it is stronger. I am not saying this new set isn;t good but I am against an idea that it's "the Single Most Overpowered Set Ever Created", because it's not. It's just a good set to run solo because in a group You can get even higher ulti gens when built properly and when it comes to running solo trickery+heroism pots is still better.

People sleep on trickery big time because many of them don't understand math behind it. Most of people think that if You get 1 out of 5 buffs randomly it will round up average uptime of each buff to 20% but this set proc durartion is 2,3x longer than it's proc cooldown average uptime of each buff over 40% and You will always have atleast 2 buffs active at the same time and sometimes for few seconds even 3 buffs will be active. You can't loose on that set no matter what buffs You are currently having.

As for the points You've made
1. I agree it will make high ulti gen setups more accesible for masses but that is actually a good thing. it's not like many DKs is good enough to benefit greatly from it anyway
2. Yes they are unnamed but standard PvP DK is not getting them anyway especially in solo play which as I've said already is the main place this set is good for so it's not like this set will have acces to 14% healing and other buffs that trickery provides.
3. Trickery is inconsistent only if You expect for it to provide You with something at any specific moment but that is very incorrect way to look at this set. If You average up everything it provides You literally can't loose with this set no matter what it gives You. Even if You are in offense and You get 2x healing buffs it's still a massive wim because if enemy will try to shift the tables You will shrug this attempt in an instant.
4. It have ok 2-4 piece bonuses same as this new set.
5. back bar offense front bar defense is kinda a oversimplification. Realistically it's nice to have both whatever bar You are in. For example if You will be pushed heavily into defense on that new set Your ulti gen will drop down to zero while with triockery+heroism pot it will be still on a decent level if You will on the other hand be having bunch of DoTs on You while in Your offense that new set healing buff will be doing nothing for You when trickery will have a chance to emp Your ghealing and help to counter DoTs just with HoTs allowing for more pressure on the enemy.

Let's just make some pure theoretical math and assume in fights You will be getting something around 60/40 split between Your back bar and front bar. That means 60% uptime on major and minor heroism and 40% uptime on 14% healing so realistically You will be getting 1,6 ulti per sec and 5,6% more healing done. With trickery+heroism pot assuming the same back bar/front bar ratio and perfect split of 40% uptime on each trickery buff with 100% uptime on minor heroism from pot You will be able to get 1,47 ult per sec, 6,4% more healing done, 6,4% more healing recived, 4% more dmg reduction and 12% more speed. It's almost the same average ulti gain but so much more healing, more defense and more mobility.

The point though is that you cant depend on a particular outcome when you need it. That is a huge downside not upside. Most people want to be able to plan and not introduce a variable in that way. I dont want mending when im at full health and start attacking someone knowing that with heroism i could place a perfectly timed ulti and i dont want heroism when i do a defensive move that deals some damage.

Additionally heroism pots are obscenely expensive and you have to active them. It also takes your opportunity to use a different pot. I would 100% of the time take a set that i can plan for the outcome, provide myself additional utility and not pay an arm and a leg to use the build. Its a no brainer.

The thing with daedric trickery and DK is that whatever outcome You get it's always very strong and always a win. There is no loosing with buffs it provides on a DK. You don't need specific outcome per se, whatever You get is usefull and if uptime of for example heroism is lower that means uptimes on other buffs will be higher which is still a win. Only situation where tyhat new set can be better is staged duel in real PvP You want mending even if You are in offense because it may quicly change. Trickery also have the benefit that it can give You major heroism even if You are pushed into heavy defense on Your defensive back bar and it can allow You to charge corro faster and survive when new set do not provide this option.

Yes heroism pots are expensive this is why I said new set opens the same playstyle that already exists for more people. What other potion would You realistically use on daily basis? As a DK You want mag and stam return because You are shuffling both of these resources so only two options are tristat and heroism pot. Tristat HP regen is useless as a stage 3 vamp and additional 4-5k heal once every 45 seconds is not a gamechanger. Occasionally You may need detect pot but Yopu will use it like max 5% of a time. Don;t fool Yourself that You will be planning for thge outcome with this new set. You will be just playing regularly and it will be just working in the background, it's not like while in defense You will be strategically spamming swaps to front bar to get ticks of heroism buffs. There is no more planning with this new set than there is with trickery. Don't underestimate trickery, even without heroism pots on a DK it's still poses a threat to this new set in real PvP fights. And once again I will repeat this new set is a strong set but really not something godly OP like many people is suggesting. It's simply just a good set for PvP solo play and for few other specific uses like acuity bombing. Only thing I would personally tune down on this new set is to make it not work out of combat to prevent extensive prebuffing.

boi_anachronism_

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

danko355 wrote: »

I disagree

Found the DK main.

DK mains actually know this set is not as OP as everyone makes it to look. It's strong yes but not some G god OP mode mode or strongesr in the history like some people are claiming. High ulti gen and high healing playstyle is already present in the game and was possible since quite some time with daedric trickery and heroism pots or with someone in a group using drake's rush set. This set is not bringing anything that wasn't existing already.

Wait so using your logic, this is all okay because this combination of highly sought after bonuses for DKs was already obtainable, except now it's even easier on 1 set instead of multiple sources..

1. Don't need to use a specific potion, you can earn other bonuses.
2. The back bar bonuses are unnamed, so they stack with named healing buffs.
3. Daedric Trickery is strong, but it has inconsistency built into it due to the random nature of it. It's strongest point was the major heroism, which is now guaranteed on this new set.
4. Daedric Trickery has bad 2-4 piece bonuses.
5. You can't stack the front and back bar bonuses, but it doesn't really matter because they do what you need when you need them most. Front bar offense, back bar defence. This is one of the reasons sets like Heartland Conquerer were popular, they are both perfect for pvp as a 2 for 1 set.

Admittedly I haven't played for a long time, so maybe I'm wrong, but it seems pretty obviously 1 of the stronger sets offering the most sought after bonuses DK chase in a set that can be slotted on 1 bar, yet work on both bars with different effects for when you need them most at 100% uptime. Heartland Conquerer at least had to be slotted on front/back. Daedric Trickery is random. Potions are potions.

Nope. My logic is that not much is changing other than a fact that playing with high ulti gen will be more obtainable for masses who couldn;t afford heroism pots but the playstyle itself that new set is promoting is alrady existing and to be fair current itteration of it is stronger. I am not saying this new set isn;t good but I am against an idea that it's "the Single Most Overpowered Set Ever Created", because it's not. It's just a good set to run solo because in a group You can get even higher ulti gens when built properly and when it comes to running solo trickery+heroism pots is still better.

People sleep on trickery big time because many of them don't understand math behind it. Most of people think that if You get 1 out of 5 buffs randomly it will round up average uptime of each buff to 20% but this set proc durartion is 2,3x longer than it's proc cooldown average uptime of each buff over 40% and You will always have atleast 2 buffs active at the same time and sometimes for few seconds even 3 buffs will be active. You can't loose on that set no matter what buffs You are currently having.

As for the points You've made
1. I agree it will make high ulti gen setups more accesible for masses but that is actually a good thing. it's not like many DKs is good enough to benefit greatly from it anyway
2. Yes they are unnamed but standard PvP DK is not getting them anyway especially in solo play which as I've said already is the main place this set is good for so it's not like this set will have acces to 14% healing and other buffs that trickery provides.
3. Trickery is inconsistent only if You expect for it to provide You with something at any specific moment but that is very incorrect way to look at this set. If You average up everything it provides You literally can't loose with this set no matter what it gives You. Even if You are in offense and You get 2x healing buffs it's still a massive wim because if enemy will try to shift the tables You will shrug this attempt in an instant.
4. It have ok 2-4 piece bonuses same as this new set.
5. back bar offense front bar defense is kinda a oversimplification. Realistically it's nice to have both whatever bar You are in. For example if You will be pushed heavily into defense on that new set Your ulti gen will drop down to zero while with triockery+heroism pot it will be still on a decent level if You will on the other hand be having bunch of DoTs on You while in Your offense that new set healing buff will be doing nothing for You when trickery will have a chance to emp Your ghealing and help to counter DoTs just with HoTs allowing for more pressure on the enemy.

Let's just make some pure theoretical math and assume in fights You will be getting something around 60/40 split between Your back bar and front bar. That means 60% uptime on major and minor heroism and 40% uptime on 14% healing so realistically You will be getting 1,6 ulti per sec and 5,6% more healing done. With trickery+heroism pot assuming the same back bar/front bar ratio and perfect split of 40% uptime on each trickery buff with 100% uptime on minor heroism from pot You will be able to get 1,47 ult per sec, 6,4% more healing done, 6,4% more healing recived, 4% more dmg reduction and 12% more speed. It's almost the same average ulti gain but so much more healing, more defense and more mobility.

The point though is that you cant depend on a particular outcome when you need it. That is a huge downside not upside. Most people want to be able to plan and not introduce a variable in that way. I dont want mending when im at full health and start attacking someone knowing that with heroism i could place a perfectly timed ulti and i dont want heroism when i do a defensive move that deals some damage.

Additionally heroism pots are obscenely expensive and you have to active them. It also takes your opportunity to use a different pot. I would 100% of the time take a set that i can plan for the outcome, provide myself additional utility and not pay an arm and a leg to use the build. Its a no brainer.

The thing with daedric trickery and DK is that whatever outcome You get it's always very strong and always a win. There is no loosing with buffs it provides on a DK. You don't need specific outcome per se, whatever You get is usefull and if uptime of for example heroism is lower that means uptimes on other buffs will be higher which is still a win. Only situation where tyhat new set can be better is staged duel in real PvP You want mending even if You are in offense because it may quicly change. Trickery also have the benefit that it can give You major heroism even if You are pushed into heavy defense on Your defensive back bar and it can allow You to charge corro faster and survive when new set do not provide this option.

Yes heroism pots are expensive this is why I said new set opens the same playstyle that already exists for more people. What other potion would You realistically use on daily basis? As a DK You want mag and stam return because You are shuffling both of these resources so only two options are tristat and heroism pot. Tristat HP regen is useless as a stage 3 vamp and additional 4-5k heal once every 45 seconds is not a gamechanger. Occasionally You may need detect pot but Yopu will use it like max 5% of a time. Don;t fool Yourself that You will be planning for thge outcome with this new set. You will be just playing regularly and it will be just working in the background, it's not like while in defense You will be strategically spamming swaps to front bar to get ticks of heroism buffs. There is no more planning with this new set than there is with trickery. Don't underestimate trickery, even without heroism pots on a DK it's still poses a threat to this new set in real PvP fights. And once again I will repeat this new set is a strong set but really not something godly OP like many people is suggesting. It's simply just a good set for PvP solo play and for few other specific uses like acuity bombing. Only thing I would personally tune down on this new set is to make it not work out of combat to prevent extensive prebuffing.

About 60% of this is opinion based. Your making some a lot of assumptions about play styles here. The idea that there is no fundamental planning to guaranteed buffs vs random ones is a pretty wild train of thought but ok. It pretty easy here - if im planning an attack, combo ect i swap to my front bar and proc. If i find myself in a defensive situation right after unintentionally i just go to my back bar which for most players is where their defensive skills sit anyway. You are seriously overthinking this. sure those buffs are all powerful but they may not be ideal in said moment and that is the point. Im not telling you that you cant have your opinions. Frankly it may be an unpopular opinion but its healthy to not have such a style of play so widely accessible because thats how the balance gets tipped. If its good and everyone can use it, everyone will use it same as they did with oaken, vat, ect. the fact is that it takes a much more, technically savy player to understand how to utilize the setup you are talking about well. This is a 1 and done extremely accessible set that requires no forethought. Same as with oaken, you slapped it on and went. Nothing to understand, proc, nothing to worry about.

Galeriano

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

danko355 wrote: »

I disagree

Found the DK main.

DK mains actually know this set is not as OP as everyone makes it to look. It's strong yes but not some G god OP mode mode or strongesr in the history like some people are claiming. High ulti gen and high healing playstyle is already present in the game and was possible since quite some time with daedric trickery and heroism pots or with someone in a group using drake's rush set. This set is not bringing anything that wasn't existing already.

Wait so using your logic, this is all okay because this combination of highly sought after bonuses for DKs was already obtainable, except now it's even easier on 1 set instead of multiple sources..

1. Don't need to use a specific potion, you can earn other bonuses.
2. The back bar bonuses are unnamed, so they stack with named healing buffs.
3. Daedric Trickery is strong, but it has inconsistency built into it due to the random nature of it. It's strongest point was the major heroism, which is now guaranteed on this new set.
4. Daedric Trickery has bad 2-4 piece bonuses.
5. You can't stack the front and back bar bonuses, but it doesn't really matter because they do what you need when you need them most. Front bar offense, back bar defence. This is one of the reasons sets like Heartland Conquerer were popular, they are both perfect for pvp as a 2 for 1 set.

Admittedly I haven't played for a long time, so maybe I'm wrong, but it seems pretty obviously 1 of the stronger sets offering the most sought after bonuses DK chase in a set that can be slotted on 1 bar, yet work on both bars with different effects for when you need them most at 100% uptime. Heartland Conquerer at least had to be slotted on front/back. Daedric Trickery is random. Potions are potions.

Nope. My logic is that not much is changing other than a fact that playing with high ulti gen will be more obtainable for masses who couldn;t afford heroism pots but the playstyle itself that new set is promoting is alrady existing and to be fair current itteration of it is stronger. I am not saying this new set isn;t good but I am against an idea that it's "the Single Most Overpowered Set Ever Created", because it's not. It's just a good set to run solo because in a group You can get even higher ulti gens when built properly and when it comes to running solo trickery+heroism pots is still better.

People sleep on trickery big time because many of them don't understand math behind it. Most of people think that if You get 1 out of 5 buffs randomly it will round up average uptime of each buff to 20% but this set proc durartion is 2,3x longer than it's proc cooldown average uptime of each buff over 40% and You will always have atleast 2 buffs active at the same time and sometimes for few seconds even 3 buffs will be active. You can't loose on that set no matter what buffs You are currently having.

As for the points You've made
1. I agree it will make high ulti gen setups more accesible for masses but that is actually a good thing. it's not like many DKs is good enough to benefit greatly from it anyway
2. Yes they are unnamed but standard PvP DK is not getting them anyway especially in solo play which as I've said already is the main place this set is good for so it's not like this set will have acces to 14% healing and other buffs that trickery provides.
3. Trickery is inconsistent only if You expect for it to provide You with something at any specific moment but that is very incorrect way to look at this set. If You average up everything it provides You literally can't loose with this set no matter what it gives You. Even if You are in offense and You get 2x healing buffs it's still a massive wim because if enemy will try to shift the tables You will shrug this attempt in an instant.
4. It have ok 2-4 piece bonuses same as this new set.
5. back bar offense front bar defense is kinda a oversimplification. Realistically it's nice to have both whatever bar You are in. For example if You will be pushed heavily into defense on that new set Your ulti gen will drop down to zero while with triockery+heroism pot it will be still on a decent level if You will on the other hand be having bunch of DoTs on You while in Your offense that new set healing buff will be doing nothing for You when trickery will have a chance to emp Your ghealing and help to counter DoTs just with HoTs allowing for more pressure on the enemy.

Let's just make some pure theoretical math and assume in fights You will be getting something around 60/40 split between Your back bar and front bar. That means 60% uptime on major and minor heroism and 40% uptime on 14% healing so realistically You will be getting 1,6 ulti per sec and 5,6% more healing done. With trickery+heroism pot assuming the same back bar/front bar ratio and perfect split of 40% uptime on each trickery buff with 100% uptime on minor heroism from pot You will be able to get 1,47 ult per sec, 6,4% more healing done, 6,4% more healing recived, 4% more dmg reduction and 12% more speed. It's almost the same average ulti gain but so much more healing, more defense and more mobility.

The point though is that you cant depend on a particular outcome when you need it. That is a huge downside not upside. Most people want to be able to plan and not introduce a variable in that way. I dont want mending when im at full health and start attacking someone knowing that with heroism i could place a perfectly timed ulti and i dont want heroism when i do a defensive move that deals some damage.

Additionally heroism pots are obscenely expensive and you have to active them. It also takes your opportunity to use a different pot. I would 100% of the time take a set that i can plan for the outcome, provide myself additional utility and not pay an arm and a leg to use the build. Its a no brainer.

The thing with daedric trickery and DK is that whatever outcome You get it's always very strong and always a win. There is no loosing with buffs it provides on a DK. You don't need specific outcome per se, whatever You get is usefull and if uptime of for example heroism is lower that means uptimes on other buffs will be higher which is still a win. Only situation where tyhat new set can be better is staged duel in real PvP You want mending even if You are in offense because it may quicly change. Trickery also have the benefit that it can give You major heroism even if You are pushed into heavy defense on Your defensive back bar and it can allow You to charge corro faster and survive when new set do not provide this option.

Yes heroism pots are expensive this is why I said new set opens the same playstyle that already exists for more people. What other potion would You realistically use on daily basis? As a DK You want mag and stam return because You are shuffling both of these resources so only two options are tristat and heroism pot. Tristat HP regen is useless as a stage 3 vamp and additional 4-5k heal once every 45 seconds is not a gamechanger. Occasionally You may need detect pot but Yopu will use it like max 5% of a time. Don;t fool Yourself that You will be planning for thge outcome with this new set. You will be just playing regularly and it will be just working in the background, it's not like while in defense You will be strategically spamming swaps to front bar to get ticks of heroism buffs. There is no more planning with this new set than there is with trickery. Don't underestimate trickery, even without heroism pots on a DK it's still poses a threat to this new set in real PvP fights. And once again I will repeat this new set is a strong set but really not something godly OP like many people is suggesting. It's simply just a good set for PvP solo play and for few other specific uses like acuity bombing. Only thing I would personally tune down on this new set is to make it not work out of combat to prevent extensive prebuffing.

About 60% of this is opinion based. Your making some a lot of assumptions about play styles here. The idea that there is no fundamental planning to guaranteed buffs vs random ones is a pretty wild train of thought but ok. It pretty easy here - if im planning an attack, combo ect i swap to my front bar and proc. If i find myself in a defensive situation right after unintentionally i just go to my back bar which for most players is where their defensive skills sit anyway. You are seriously overthinking this. sure those buffs are all powerful but they may not be ideal in said moment and that is the point. Im not telling you that you cant have your opinions. Frankly it may be an unpopular opinion but its healthy to not have such a style of play so widely accessible because thats how the balance gets tipped. If its good and everyone can use it, everyone will use it same as they did with oaken, vat, ect. the fact is that it takes a much more, technically savy player to understand how to utilize the setup you are talking about well. This is a 1 and done extremely accessible set that requires no forethought. Same as with oaken, you slapped it on and went. Nothing to understand, proc, nothing to worry about.

We're talking about a set that wasn't even released on live server and properly tested. Of course my comment is opinion based but same goes for Your comment. Let's agree to disagree and wait to show what the future will tell. For now lots of experienced DKs I know supports my opinion that trickery is still better but who knows maybe they're all wrong. What playing this game have shown me is that often when people scream something is broken in reality it isn't. Not that long ago there was similar situation with new mist that according to some PTS session comments, right now should be most popular skill in PvP that everyuone is using and sorc should be butchered class after arrival of that new version of mist. Somehow none of that happened. People like to overreact and in my opinion same story is happening right now. In my opinion You are overthinking how trickery works when in reality this set on a DK is a pure win whatever buffs it provides at any given moment.

Rasande_Robin

I can already see the top leader-board duo for Endless Archive.

2 DK's with builds managing to have 100% uptime on corrosive.

Sythen88411

Rasande_Robin wrote: »

I can already see the top leader-board duo for Endless Archive.

2 DK's with builds managing to have 100% uptime on corrosive.

This is the way.

Galeriano

Rasande_Robin wrote: »

I can already see the top leader-board duo for Endless Archive.

2 DK's with builds managing to have 100% uptime on corrosive.

Other morph with elf bane would be better if immortality is the goal.

xDeusEJRx

Because cryptcannon wasn't effective enough, let's toss out more ultimate. Let's go back to the 2014 days where everyone was tossing out ultimates let right and center (admittedly there was a lot of cheaters getting free ultimates, but still point stands).

Let's just add an addendum to DK passives where they passively gain ultimate just for existing too since we're throwing caution to the wind at this point

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

We've had to remove a few non-constructive and baiting comments. We would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.

boi_anachronism_

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

danko355 wrote: »

I disagree

Found the DK main.

DK mains actually know this set is not as OP as everyone makes it to look. It's strong yes but not some G god OP mode mode or strongesr in the history like some people are claiming. High ulti gen and high healing playstyle is already present in the game and was possible since quite some time with daedric trickery and heroism pots or with someone in a group using drake's rush set. This set is not bringing anything that wasn't existing already.

Wait so using your logic, this is all okay because this combination of highly sought after bonuses for DKs was already obtainable, except now it's even easier on 1 set instead of multiple sources..

1. Don't need to use a specific potion, you can earn other bonuses.
2. The back bar bonuses are unnamed, so they stack with named healing buffs.
3. Daedric Trickery is strong, but it has inconsistency built into it due to the random nature of it. It's strongest point was the major heroism, which is now guaranteed on this new set.
4. Daedric Trickery has bad 2-4 piece bonuses.
5. You can't stack the front and back bar bonuses, but it doesn't really matter because they do what you need when you need them most. Front bar offense, back bar defence. This is one of the reasons sets like Heartland Conquerer were popular, they are both perfect for pvp as a 2 for 1 set.

Admittedly I haven't played for a long time, so maybe I'm wrong, but it seems pretty obviously 1 of the stronger sets offering the most sought after bonuses DK chase in a set that can be slotted on 1 bar, yet work on both bars with different effects for when you need them most at 100% uptime. Heartland Conquerer at least had to be slotted on front/back. Daedric Trickery is random. Potions are potions.

Nope. My logic is that not much is changing other than a fact that playing with high ulti gen will be more obtainable for masses who couldn;t afford heroism pots but the playstyle itself that new set is promoting is alrady existing and to be fair current itteration of it is stronger. I am not saying this new set isn;t good but I am against an idea that it's "the Single Most Overpowered Set Ever Created", because it's not. It's just a good set to run solo because in a group You can get even higher ulti gens when built properly and when it comes to running solo trickery+heroism pots is still better.

People sleep on trickery big time because many of them don't understand math behind it. Most of people think that if You get 1 out of 5 buffs randomly it will round up average uptime of each buff to 20% but this set proc durartion is 2,3x longer than it's proc cooldown average uptime of each buff over 40% and You will always have atleast 2 buffs active at the same time and sometimes for few seconds even 3 buffs will be active. You can't loose on that set no matter what buffs You are currently having.

As for the points You've made
1. I agree it will make high ulti gen setups more accesible for masses but that is actually a good thing. it's not like many DKs is good enough to benefit greatly from it anyway
2. Yes they are unnamed but standard PvP DK is not getting them anyway especially in solo play which as I've said already is the main place this set is good for so it's not like this set will have acces to 14% healing and other buffs that trickery provides.
3. Trickery is inconsistent only if You expect for it to provide You with something at any specific moment but that is very incorrect way to look at this set. If You average up everything it provides You literally can't loose with this set no matter what it gives You. Even if You are in offense and You get 2x healing buffs it's still a massive wim because if enemy will try to shift the tables You will shrug this attempt in an instant.
4. It have ok 2-4 piece bonuses same as this new set.
5. back bar offense front bar defense is kinda a oversimplification. Realistically it's nice to have both whatever bar You are in. For example if You will be pushed heavily into defense on that new set Your ulti gen will drop down to zero while with triockery+heroism pot it will be still on a decent level if You will on the other hand be having bunch of DoTs on You while in Your offense that new set healing buff will be doing nothing for You when trickery will have a chance to emp Your ghealing and help to counter DoTs just with HoTs allowing for more pressure on the enemy.

Let's just make some pure theoretical math and assume in fights You will be getting something around 60/40 split between Your back bar and front bar. That means 60% uptime on major and minor heroism and 40% uptime on 14% healing so realistically You will be getting 1,6 ulti per sec and 5,6% more healing done. With trickery+heroism pot assuming the same back bar/front bar ratio and perfect split of 40% uptime on each trickery buff with 100% uptime on minor heroism from pot You will be able to get 1,47 ult per sec, 6,4% more healing done, 6,4% more healing recived, 4% more dmg reduction and 12% more speed. It's almost the same average ulti gain but so much more healing, more defense and more mobility.

The point though is that you cant depend on a particular outcome when you need it. That is a huge downside not upside. Most people want to be able to plan and not introduce a variable in that way. I dont want mending when im at full health and start attacking someone knowing that with heroism i could place a perfectly timed ulti and i dont want heroism when i do a defensive move that deals some damage.

Additionally heroism pots are obscenely expensive and you have to active them. It also takes your opportunity to use a different pot. I would 100% of the time take a set that i can plan for the outcome, provide myself additional utility and not pay an arm and a leg to use the build. Its a no brainer.

The thing with daedric trickery and DK is that whatever outcome You get it's always very strong and always a win. There is no loosing with buffs it provides on a DK. You don't need specific outcome per se, whatever You get is usefull and if uptime of for example heroism is lower that means uptimes on other buffs will be higher which is still a win. Only situation where tyhat new set can be better is staged duel in real PvP You want mending even if You are in offense because it may quicly change. Trickery also have the benefit that it can give You major heroism even if You are pushed into heavy defense on Your defensive back bar and it can allow You to charge corro faster and survive when new set do not provide this option.

Yes heroism pots are expensive this is why I said new set opens the same playstyle that already exists for more people. What other potion would You realistically use on daily basis? As a DK You want mag and stam return because You are shuffling both of these resources so only two options are tristat and heroism pot. Tristat HP regen is useless as a stage 3 vamp and additional 4-5k heal once every 45 seconds is not a gamechanger. Occasionally You may need detect pot but Yopu will use it like max 5% of a time. Don;t fool Yourself that You will be planning for thge outcome with this new set. You will be just playing regularly and it will be just working in the background, it's not like while in defense You will be strategically spamming swaps to front bar to get ticks of heroism buffs. There is no more planning with this new set than there is with trickery. Don't underestimate trickery, even without heroism pots on a DK it's still poses a threat to this new set in real PvP fights. And once again I will repeat this new set is a strong set but really not something godly OP like many people is suggesting. It's simply just a good set for PvP solo play and for few other specific uses like acuity bombing. Only thing I would personally tune down on this new set is to make it not work out of combat to prevent extensive prebuffing.

About 60% of this is opinion based. Your making some a lot of assumptions about play styles here. The idea that there is no fundamental planning to guaranteed buffs vs random ones is a pretty wild train of thought but ok. It pretty easy here - if im planning an attack, combo ect i swap to my front bar and proc. If i find myself in a defensive situation right after unintentionally i just go to my back bar which for most players is where their defensive skills sit anyway. You are seriously overthinking this. sure those buffs are all powerful but they may not be ideal in said moment and that is the point. Im not telling you that you cant have your opinions. Frankly it may be an unpopular opinion but its healthy to not have such a style of play so widely accessible because thats how the balance gets tipped. If its good and everyone can use it, everyone will use it same as they did with oaken, vat, ect. the fact is that it takes a much more, technically savy player to understand how to utilize the setup you are talking about well. This is a 1 and done extremely accessible set that requires no forethought. Same as with oaken, you slapped it on and went. Nothing to understand, proc, nothing to worry about.

We're talking about a set that wasn't even released on live server and properly tested. Of course my comment is opinion based but same goes for Your comment. Let's agree to disagree and wait to show what the future will tell. For now lots of experienced DKs I know supports my opinion that trickery is still better but who knows maybe they're all wrong. What playing this game have shown me is that often when people scream something is broken in reality it isn't. Not that long ago there was similar situation with new mist that according to some PTS session comments, right now should be most popular skill in PvP that everyuone is using and sorc should be butchered class after arrival of that new version of mist. Somehow none of that happened. People like to overreact and in my opinion same story is happening right now. In my opinion You are overthinking how trickery works when in reality this set on a DK is a pure win whatever buffs it provides at any given moment.

While its true that it may be a mathematically better option there is a reason its "slept" on by the majority. There are a lot less experienced players left in pvp as well as pve. You say it yourself "most experienced dks i know supports my opinion". But do less experienced ones is the question? Do they understand why its beneficial compared to x other sets. Do they even know what it is? The point of this being people dont understand tooltips or how they can be very beneficial without personal experience or it being blown up on social media, its generally people with a really good idea of theory crafting or extensive knowledge of the game and all its sets that put 2+2 together. How many serious pvpers do you know that expose their builds widely? I mean people are dismissing the viability of this new set for pve off the bat because the context of its use is above their experience. It most definitely has uses combined with other sets in endgame pve content. Same with elfbane, you ask people at a basic vet level if the set is useful, most have never heard of it. Its a go-to for trifecta and score runs. Thing is that while trickery may be underrated thats not public knowledge and this set very much is and still excellent even being marginally not as good as trickery to the point that it can tip the balance and most importantly it is widely known that it would be extremely good. Do you think if it was widely public knowledge that set is good, widely accessible and people knew why that everyone wouldnt use it? Id wager more experienced players have a better build to combat the current vat meta and are not using it but the setups are not known.

Additionally ther IS a point in people taking issue with something. If feedback wasnt meant to be given what is the point of the pts in general?

Galeriano

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

danko355 wrote: »

I disagree

Found the DK main.

DK mains actually know this set is not as OP as everyone makes it to look. It's strong yes but not some G god OP mode mode or strongesr in the history like some people are claiming. High ulti gen and high healing playstyle is already present in the game and was possible since quite some time with daedric trickery and heroism pots or with someone in a group using drake's rush set. This set is not bringing anything that wasn't existing already.

Wait so using your logic, this is all okay because this combination of highly sought after bonuses for DKs was already obtainable, except now it's even easier on 1 set instead of multiple sources..

1. Don't need to use a specific potion, you can earn other bonuses.
2. The back bar bonuses are unnamed, so they stack with named healing buffs.
3. Daedric Trickery is strong, but it has inconsistency built into it due to the random nature of it. It's strongest point was the major heroism, which is now guaranteed on this new set.
4. Daedric Trickery has bad 2-4 piece bonuses.
5. You can't stack the front and back bar bonuses, but it doesn't really matter because they do what you need when you need them most. Front bar offense, back bar defence. This is one of the reasons sets like Heartland Conquerer were popular, they are both perfect for pvp as a 2 for 1 set.

Admittedly I haven't played for a long time, so maybe I'm wrong, but it seems pretty obviously 1 of the stronger sets offering the most sought after bonuses DK chase in a set that can be slotted on 1 bar, yet work on both bars with different effects for when you need them most at 100% uptime. Heartland Conquerer at least had to be slotted on front/back. Daedric Trickery is random. Potions are potions.

Nope. My logic is that not much is changing other than a fact that playing with high ulti gen will be more obtainable for masses who couldn;t afford heroism pots but the playstyle itself that new set is promoting is alrady existing and to be fair current itteration of it is stronger. I am not saying this new set isn;t good but I am against an idea that it's "the Single Most Overpowered Set Ever Created", because it's not. It's just a good set to run solo because in a group You can get even higher ulti gens when built properly and when it comes to running solo trickery+heroism pots is still better.

People sleep on trickery big time because many of them don't understand math behind it. Most of people think that if You get 1 out of 5 buffs randomly it will round up average uptime of each buff to 20% but this set proc durartion is 2,3x longer than it's proc cooldown average uptime of each buff over 40% and You will always have atleast 2 buffs active at the same time and sometimes for few seconds even 3 buffs will be active. You can't loose on that set no matter what buffs You are currently having.

As for the points You've made
1. I agree it will make high ulti gen setups more accesible for masses but that is actually a good thing. it's not like many DKs is good enough to benefit greatly from it anyway
2. Yes they are unnamed but standard PvP DK is not getting them anyway especially in solo play which as I've said already is the main place this set is good for so it's not like this set will have acces to 14% healing and other buffs that trickery provides.
3. Trickery is inconsistent only if You expect for it to provide You with something at any specific moment but that is very incorrect way to look at this set. If You average up everything it provides You literally can't loose with this set no matter what it gives You. Even if You are in offense and You get 2x healing buffs it's still a massive wim because if enemy will try to shift the tables You will shrug this attempt in an instant.
4. It have ok 2-4 piece bonuses same as this new set.
5. back bar offense front bar defense is kinda a oversimplification. Realistically it's nice to have both whatever bar You are in. For example if You will be pushed heavily into defense on that new set Your ulti gen will drop down to zero while with triockery+heroism pot it will be still on a decent level if You will on the other hand be having bunch of DoTs on You while in Your offense that new set healing buff will be doing nothing for You when trickery will have a chance to emp Your ghealing and help to counter DoTs just with HoTs allowing for more pressure on the enemy.

Let's just make some pure theoretical math and assume in fights You will be getting something around 60/40 split between Your back bar and front bar. That means 60% uptime on major and minor heroism and 40% uptime on 14% healing so realistically You will be getting 1,6 ulti per sec and 5,6% more healing done. With trickery+heroism pot assuming the same back bar/front bar ratio and perfect split of 40% uptime on each trickery buff with 100% uptime on minor heroism from pot You will be able to get 1,47 ult per sec, 6,4% more healing done, 6,4% more healing recived, 4% more dmg reduction and 12% more speed. It's almost the same average ulti gain but so much more healing, more defense and more mobility.

The point though is that you cant depend on a particular outcome when you need it. That is a huge downside not upside. Most people want to be able to plan and not introduce a variable in that way. I dont want mending when im at full health and start attacking someone knowing that with heroism i could place a perfectly timed ulti and i dont want heroism when i do a defensive move that deals some damage.

Additionally heroism pots are obscenely expensive and you have to active them. It also takes your opportunity to use a different pot. I would 100% of the time take a set that i can plan for the outcome, provide myself additional utility and not pay an arm and a leg to use the build. Its a no brainer.

The thing with daedric trickery and DK is that whatever outcome You get it's always very strong and always a win. There is no loosing with buffs it provides on a DK. You don't need specific outcome per se, whatever You get is usefull and if uptime of for example heroism is lower that means uptimes on other buffs will be higher which is still a win. Only situation where tyhat new set can be better is staged duel in real PvP You want mending even if You are in offense because it may quicly change. Trickery also have the benefit that it can give You major heroism even if You are pushed into heavy defense on Your defensive back bar and it can allow You to charge corro faster and survive when new set do not provide this option.

Yes heroism pots are expensive this is why I said new set opens the same playstyle that already exists for more people. What other potion would You realistically use on daily basis? As a DK You want mag and stam return because You are shuffling both of these resources so only two options are tristat and heroism pot. Tristat HP regen is useless as a stage 3 vamp and additional 4-5k heal once every 45 seconds is not a gamechanger. Occasionally You may need detect pot but Yopu will use it like max 5% of a time. Don;t fool Yourself that You will be planning for thge outcome with this new set. You will be just playing regularly and it will be just working in the background, it's not like while in defense You will be strategically spamming swaps to front bar to get ticks of heroism buffs. There is no more planning with this new set than there is with trickery. Don't underestimate trickery, even without heroism pots on a DK it's still poses a threat to this new set in real PvP fights. And once again I will repeat this new set is a strong set but really not something godly OP like many people is suggesting. It's simply just a good set for PvP solo play and for few other specific uses like acuity bombing. Only thing I would personally tune down on this new set is to make it not work out of combat to prevent extensive prebuffing.

About 60% of this is opinion based. Your making some a lot of assumptions about play styles here. The idea that there is no fundamental planning to guaranteed buffs vs random ones is a pretty wild train of thought but ok. It pretty easy here - if im planning an attack, combo ect i swap to my front bar and proc. If i find myself in a defensive situation right after unintentionally i just go to my back bar which for most players is where their defensive skills sit anyway. You are seriously overthinking this. sure those buffs are all powerful but they may not be ideal in said moment and that is the point. Im not telling you that you cant have your opinions. Frankly it may be an unpopular opinion but its healthy to not have such a style of play so widely accessible because thats how the balance gets tipped. If its good and everyone can use it, everyone will use it same as they did with oaken, vat, ect. the fact is that it takes a much more, technically savy player to understand how to utilize the setup you are talking about well. This is a 1 and done extremely accessible set that requires no forethought. Same as with oaken, you slapped it on and went. Nothing to understand, proc, nothing to worry about.

We're talking about a set that wasn't even released on live server and properly tested. Of course my comment is opinion based but same goes for Your comment. Let's agree to disagree and wait to show what the future will tell. For now lots of experienced DKs I know supports my opinion that trickery is still better but who knows maybe they're all wrong. What playing this game have shown me is that often when people scream something is broken in reality it isn't. Not that long ago there was similar situation with new mist that according to some PTS session comments, right now should be most popular skill in PvP that everyuone is using and sorc should be butchered class after arrival of that new version of mist. Somehow none of that happened. People like to overreact and in my opinion same story is happening right now. In my opinion You are overthinking how trickery works when in reality this set on a DK is a pure win whatever buffs it provides at any given moment.

While its true that it may be a mathematically better option there is a reason its "slept" on by the majority. There are a lot less experienced players left in pvp as well as pve. You say it yourself "most experienced dks i know supports my opinion". But do less experienced ones is the question? Do they understand why its beneficial compared to x other sets. Do they even know what it is? The point of this being people dont understand tooltips or how they can be very beneficial without personal experience or it being blown up on social media, its generally people with a really good idea of theory crafting or extensive knowledge of the game and all its sets that put 2+2 together. How many serious pvpers do you know that expose their builds widely? I mean people are dismissing the viability of this new set for pve off the bat because the context of its use is above their experience. It most definitely has uses combined with other sets in endgame pve content. Same with elfbane, you ask people at a basic vet level if the set is useful, most have never heard of it. Its a go-to for trifecta and score runs. Thing is that while trickery may be underrated thats not public knowledge and this set very much is and still excellent even being marginally not as good as trickery to the point that it can tip the balance and most importantly it is widely known that it would be extremely good. Do you think if it was widely public knowledge that set is good, widely accessible and people knew why that everyone wouldnt use it? Id wager more experienced players have a better build to combat the current vat meta and are not using it but the setups are not known.

Additionally ther IS a point in people taking issue with something. If feedback wasnt meant to be given what is the point of the pts in general?

It seems like You are continously missing the point I've made. OP made a thread calling this new set "the Single Most Overpowered Set Ever Created" which simply is not truth. I am not calling this new set weak I've stated multiple times it's strong but simply not what thread title tries to make it since even right now on live server there is a set that allows to create stronger build. Fact that it's stronger in proper hands is irrelevant because everything is stronger in proper hands. That's it, You are overthinking this subject way too much at this point.

OBJnoob

@Galeriano I think you're the one overthinking it. Giving DKs major and minor heroism is a terrible idea. Whether or not it's the most OP set ever is really unimportant. You're arguing with a clickbait title instead of focusing on the subject matter.

danko355

danko355 wrote: »

I disagree

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

danko355 wrote: »

I disagree

Found the DK main.

After reviewing it further for some time I changed my mind. I agree it's overpowered and need to be tuned down (still disagree it's "the Single Most Overpowered Set Ever Created" )
P.S. I'm not a DK main btw.

boi_anachronism_

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

danko355 wrote: »

I disagree

Found the DK main.

DK mains actually know this set is not as OP as everyone makes it to look. It's strong yes but not some G god OP mode mode or strongesr in the history like some people are claiming. High ulti gen and high healing playstyle is already present in the game and was possible since quite some time with daedric trickery and heroism pots or with someone in a group using drake's rush set. This set is not bringing anything that wasn't existing already.

Wait so using your logic, this is all okay because this combination of highly sought after bonuses for DKs was already obtainable, except now it's even easier on 1 set instead of multiple sources..

1. Don't need to use a specific potion, you can earn other bonuses.
2. The back bar bonuses are unnamed, so they stack with named healing buffs.
3. Daedric Trickery is strong, but it has inconsistency built into it due to the random nature of it. It's strongest point was the major heroism, which is now guaranteed on this new set.
4. Daedric Trickery has bad 2-4 piece bonuses.
5. You can't stack the front and back bar bonuses, but it doesn't really matter because they do what you need when you need them most. Front bar offense, back bar defence. This is one of the reasons sets like Heartland Conquerer were popular, they are both perfect for pvp as a 2 for 1 set.

Admittedly I haven't played for a long time, so maybe I'm wrong, but it seems pretty obviously 1 of the stronger sets offering the most sought after bonuses DK chase in a set that can be slotted on 1 bar, yet work on both bars with different effects for when you need them most at 100% uptime. Heartland Conquerer at least had to be slotted on front/back. Daedric Trickery is random. Potions are potions.

Nope. My logic is that not much is changing other than a fact that playing with high ulti gen will be more obtainable for masses who couldn;t afford heroism pots but the playstyle itself that new set is promoting is alrady existing and to be fair current itteration of it is stronger. I am not saying this new set isn;t good but I am against an idea that it's "the Single Most Overpowered Set Ever Created", because it's not. It's just a good set to run solo because in a group You can get even higher ulti gens when built properly and when it comes to running solo trickery+heroism pots is still better.

People sleep on trickery big time because many of them don't understand math behind it. Most of people think that if You get 1 out of 5 buffs randomly it will round up average uptime of each buff to 20% but this set proc durartion is 2,3x longer than it's proc cooldown average uptime of each buff over 40% and You will always have atleast 2 buffs active at the same time and sometimes for few seconds even 3 buffs will be active. You can't loose on that set no matter what buffs You are currently having.

As for the points You've made
1. I agree it will make high ulti gen setups more accesible for masses but that is actually a good thing. it's not like many DKs is good enough to benefit greatly from it anyway
2. Yes they are unnamed but standard PvP DK is not getting them anyway especially in solo play which as I've said already is the main place this set is good for so it's not like this set will have acces to 14% healing and other buffs that trickery provides.
3. Trickery is inconsistent only if You expect for it to provide You with something at any specific moment but that is very incorrect way to look at this set. If You average up everything it provides You literally can't loose with this set no matter what it gives You. Even if You are in offense and You get 2x healing buffs it's still a massive wim because if enemy will try to shift the tables You will shrug this attempt in an instant.
4. It have ok 2-4 piece bonuses same as this new set.
5. back bar offense front bar defense is kinda a oversimplification. Realistically it's nice to have both whatever bar You are in. For example if You will be pushed heavily into defense on that new set Your ulti gen will drop down to zero while with triockery+heroism pot it will be still on a decent level if You will on the other hand be having bunch of DoTs on You while in Your offense that new set healing buff will be doing nothing for You when trickery will have a chance to emp Your ghealing and help to counter DoTs just with HoTs allowing for more pressure on the enemy.

Let's just make some pure theoretical math and assume in fights You will be getting something around 60/40 split between Your back bar and front bar. That means 60% uptime on major and minor heroism and 40% uptime on 14% healing so realistically You will be getting 1,6 ulti per sec and 5,6% more healing done. With trickery+heroism pot assuming the same back bar/front bar ratio and perfect split of 40% uptime on each trickery buff with 100% uptime on minor heroism from pot You will be able to get 1,47 ult per sec, 6,4% more healing done, 6,4% more healing recived, 4% more dmg reduction and 12% more speed. It's almost the same average ulti gain but so much more healing, more defense and more mobility.

The point though is that you cant depend on a particular outcome when you need it. That is a huge downside not upside. Most people want to be able to plan and not introduce a variable in that way. I dont want mending when im at full health and start attacking someone knowing that with heroism i could place a perfectly timed ulti and i dont want heroism when i do a defensive move that deals some damage.

Additionally heroism pots are obscenely expensive and you have to active them. It also takes your opportunity to use a different pot. I would 100% of the time take a set that i can plan for the outcome, provide myself additional utility and not pay an arm and a leg to use the build. Its a no brainer.

The thing with daedric trickery and DK is that whatever outcome You get it's always very strong and always a win. There is no loosing with buffs it provides on a DK. You don't need specific outcome per se, whatever You get is usefull and if uptime of for example heroism is lower that means uptimes on other buffs will be higher which is still a win. Only situation where tyhat new set can be better is staged duel in real PvP You want mending even if You are in offense because it may quicly change. Trickery also have the benefit that it can give You major heroism even if You are pushed into heavy defense on Your defensive back bar and it can allow You to charge corro faster and survive when new set do not provide this option.

Yes heroism pots are expensive this is why I said new set opens the same playstyle that already exists for more people. What other potion would You realistically use on daily basis? As a DK You want mag and stam return because You are shuffling both of these resources so only two options are tristat and heroism pot. Tristat HP regen is useless as a stage 3 vamp and additional 4-5k heal once every 45 seconds is not a gamechanger. Occasionally You may need detect pot but Yopu will use it like max 5% of a time. Don;t fool Yourself that You will be planning for thge outcome with this new set. You will be just playing regularly and it will be just working in the background, it's not like while in defense You will be strategically spamming swaps to front bar to get ticks of heroism buffs. There is no more planning with this new set than there is with trickery. Don't underestimate trickery, even without heroism pots on a DK it's still poses a threat to this new set in real PvP fights. And once again I will repeat this new set is a strong set but really not something godly OP like many people is suggesting. It's simply just a good set for PvP solo play and for few other specific uses like acuity bombing. Only thing I would personally tune down on this new set is to make it not work out of combat to prevent extensive prebuffing.

About 60% of this is opinion based. Your making some a lot of assumptions about play styles here. The idea that there is no fundamental planning to guaranteed buffs vs random ones is a pretty wild train of thought but ok. It pretty easy here - if im planning an attack, combo ect i swap to my front bar and proc. If i find myself in a defensive situation right after unintentionally i just go to my back bar which for most players is where their defensive skills sit anyway. You are seriously overthinking this. sure those buffs are all powerful but they may not be ideal in said moment and that is the point. Im not telling you that you cant have your opinions. Frankly it may be an unpopular opinion but its healthy to not have such a style of play so widely accessible because thats how the balance gets tipped. If its good and everyone can use it, everyone will use it same as they did with oaken, vat, ect. the fact is that it takes a much more, technically savy player to understand how to utilize the setup you are talking about well. This is a 1 and done extremely accessible set that requires no forethought. Same as with oaken, you slapped it on and went. Nothing to understand, proc, nothing to worry about.

We're talking about a set that wasn't even released on live server and properly tested. Of course my comment is opinion based but same goes for Your comment. Let's agree to disagree and wait to show what the future will tell. For now lots of experienced DKs I know supports my opinion that trickery is still better but who knows maybe they're all wrong. What playing this game have shown me is that often when people scream something is broken in reality it isn't. Not that long ago there was similar situation with new mist that according to some PTS session comments, right now should be most popular skill in PvP that everyuone is using and sorc should be butchered class after arrival of that new version of mist. Somehow none of that happened. People like to overreact and in my opinion same story is happening right now. In my opinion You are overthinking how trickery works when in reality this set on a DK is a pure win whatever buffs it provides at any given moment.

While its true that it may be a mathematically better option there is a reason its "slept" on by the majority. There are a lot less experienced players left in pvp as well as pve. You say it yourself "most experienced dks i know supports my opinion". But do less experienced ones is the question? Do they understand why its beneficial compared to x other sets. Do they even know what it is? The point of this being people dont understand tooltips or how they can be very beneficial without personal experience or it being blown up on social media, its generally people with a really good idea of theory crafting or extensive knowledge of the game and all its sets that put 2+2 together. How many serious pvpers do you know that expose their builds widely? I mean people are dismissing the viability of this new set for pve off the bat because the context of its use is above their experience. It most definitely has uses combined with other sets in endgame pve content. Same with elfbane, you ask people at a basic vet level if the set is useful, most have never heard of it. Its a go-to for trifecta and score runs. Thing is that while trickery may be underrated thats not public knowledge and this set very much is and still excellent even being marginally not as good as trickery to the point that it can tip the balance and most importantly it is widely known that it would be extremely good. Do you think if it was widely public knowledge that set is good, widely accessible and people knew why that everyone wouldnt use it? Id wager more experienced players have a better build to combat the current vat meta and are not using it but the setups are not known.

Additionally ther IS a point in people taking issue with something. If feedback wasnt meant to be given what is the point of the pts in general?

It seems like You are continously missing the point I've made. OP made a thread calling this new set "the Single Most Overpowered Set Ever Created" which simply is not truth. I am not calling this new set weak I've stated multiple times it's strong but simply not what thread title tries to make it since even right now on live server there is a set that allows to create stronger build. Fact that it's stronger in proper hands is irrelevant because everything is stronger in proper hands. That's it, You are overthinking this subject way too much at this point.

No I dont believe i am. I never said i thought it it was the most "op set ever released" what did do was agree with the op at the point on a point in their original post saying that i do not believe it should go live as it is and then talked about why i believe that which is very much on topic. They also brought up that it would create a meta swing which i also touched on. You were actually the one that took it off on a tangent comparing it to other sets my friend.

Four_Fingers

One saving grace that will limit the number of players using these sets is the grind and difficulty in EA .
PvP wise it will be mostly dedicated PvP guilds that will work together to farm these sets as it will take much longer solo.

Galeriano

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Galeriano I think you're the one overthinking it. Giving DKs major and minor heroism is a terrible idea. Whether or not it's the most OP set ever is really unimportant. You're arguing with a clickbait title instead of focusing on the subject matter.

Thing is DK already have acces to both. It was already given to a DK long time ago.

CameraBeardThePirate

Galeriano wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Galeriano I think you're the one overthinking it. Giving DKs major and minor heroism is a terrible idea. Whether or not it's the most OP set ever is really unimportant. You're arguing with a clickbait title instead of focusing on the subject matter.

Thing is DK already have acces to both. It was already given to a DK long time ago.

Everyone keeps saying "BuT iTs aLReAdy pOsSible tO GeT THosE bUffs!!"

The problem is that this new set gives those buffs at an extremely high uptime, alongside another extremely powerful unnamed buff, without having to sacrifice your potions or a CP star.

Rasande_Robin

Galeriano wrote: »

Rasande_Robin wrote: »

I can already see the top leader-board duo for Endless Archive.

2 DK's with builds managing to have 100% uptime on corrosive.

Other morph with elf bane would be better if immortality is the goal.

yeah you get the idea, dk's could get to stages where everything is one-shotting you and keep going "endlessly" with the right "build" (or till they crash).

boi_anachronism_

Galeriano wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Galeriano I think you're the one overthinking it. Giving DKs major and minor heroism is a terrible idea. Whether or not it's the most OP set ever is really unimportant. You're arguing with a clickbait title instead of focusing on the subject matter.

Thing is DK already have acces to both. It was already given to a DK long time ago.

Alright lets cut through all the garbage here and address the main issue from the post. Why it matters to the op that the set is an issue - set aside the hyperbole of the title and speak to the actual point. They said that they were concerned about a meta shift for the worse because of the set. So- do you or do you not think there will be a meta shift if this goes live as is, why or why not?

Galeriano

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Galeriano I think you're the one overthinking it. Giving DKs major and minor heroism is a terrible idea. Whether or not it's the most OP set ever is really unimportant. You're arguing with a clickbait title instead of focusing on the subject matter.

Thing is DK already have acces to both. It was already given to a DK long time ago.

Everyone keeps saying "BuT iTs aLReAdy pOsSible tO GeT THosE bUffs!!"

The problem is that this new set gives those buffs at an extremely high uptime, alongside another extremely powerful unnamed buff, without having to sacrifice your potions or a CP star.

Nah not everyopne keeps saying that. Problem with new set is that heroism uptime gets lower the less experienced player uses it.

TrinityBreaker

Remember the time when DK was ass and the weakest class in the game? And then ZoS was like "DK, have bone" and gave it some well deserved buffs at the time. Now everyone basically demanding DK to be nerfed? How about just bringing the other jobs up to par with the "OP" class instead of trying to have gutted classes all the time.

Arthtur

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

Remember the time when DK was ass and the weakest class in the game? And then ZoS was like "DK, have bone" and gave it some well deserved buffs at the time. Now everyone basically demanding DK to be nerfed? How about just bringing the other jobs up to par with the "OP" class instead of trying to have gutted classes all the time.

The most funny thing about this is the fact that ZOS already took away that "bone". Everything we got - we lost it. Or it was made even worse (Combustion passive, Helping Hands passive). The only exception is extra target on FoO, thats the only thing that left from that "bone". And uncapped Battle Roar i guess.
The thing that saved DK in the end was hybridisation. No a single class got as many benefits from it as a DK.
Now the only problem with DK is Corrosive. Thats the only thing that is "broken". The rest of the problems is just that other classes are too weak or lack tools to be good in PvP. And Vampire. That Flame Damage Taken is another thing that needs a change.
Any other changes will just kill DK as a class yet again.

chessalavakia_ESO

fxeconomisteb17_ESO wrote: »

See, this is the thing. Balance is what destroys games. It sucks the fun out of them.

I played Freelancer for about 10 years, but it was never as fun as in 2006. And sadly, Starfield barely has any space part in it...

But anyway, I played a lot of mods. The one I played in 2006, Tekagi's Treasure, used to have 30 players active on server at all time. During that autumn, and continuing in 2007, modders balanced it so much, that in two years it lost all players.

Crossfire, perhaps the most known Freelancer mod after Discovery, was very much an eye candy. Updated, next gen graphics and very hard space battles. But it was balanced. I used to play it time to time, and every time I've been there I've seen less and less people, until it gotten pretty much deserted. There was a strong balance linking armor and maneuverability. Every gain in armor on a ship was payed in premium with lost maneuverability. For this reason, it was on a sinking path and it didn't recover. Maybe I should check the last version.

So this is the problem: balance is not fun. I would rather see an equal disbalance here between classes.

But the best tank that survives a wipe will always be funnier than the best damager and the best healer.

The DK is there to stand and revive the team when Hakgrym mops the floor with them.

And this is what upsets.

Freelancer always had significant balance issues when it came to PvP.

The thing is, for the first few years the balance issues didn't really matter. You didn't have tons of mixing of the servers in the early years and you didn't have many people that were focused heavily on improving their skills.

The result was that most of us were frankly terrible at PvP for the first few years and didn't fully notice the issues.

However, as the game grew older you started to have more cross-server interactions with players sharing the skills they had developed and with more players focusing on improvement the game began to develop an increasingly strict meta among those that min-maxed.

At first, this wasn't a huge issue as the optimal builds were generally high maneuverability which people enjoyed but, as the meta continued to spread it started to get stale and the skill gap between players started to grow. (You also had increasing issues with cheating around that time which didn't help matters)

When I first got into Freelancer I was fighting in serious battles with the Drake, Banshee, Eagle, Hammerhead, Centurion, Titan, Sabre, Valkyrie, and Falcon.

By the end of my time, I was basically just flying the Eagle or a modded ship (that was basically a minor variant on the Eagle) in serious PvP.

Some servers like the ones you played on tried to address the issues with balance changes others didn't. In the end, every server except some of the heavily modded ones went inactive. I suspect the heavily modded nature of the servers helped them avoid running into as many optimization issues because the experience was significantly different from other servers. Further, the more modded servers had a greater cost to leaving because you couldn't get the same experience elsewhere. Discovery specifically was always known for having bad pilots and for having restrictive rules surrounding combat. I suspect both are a factor in it's staying power.

I think it would be very hard for another Freelancer like experience to occur because of the current gaming culture. Instead of taking years for the meta to solidify nearly across the board, I suspect it would happen in a month or so nowadays.

I would admit however in some situations you are right regarding balance and fun not aligning.

The server I played on ended up deciding to implement some modded functionality and we decided to put in the CSV. I did the modification to implement it but, I decided to change the maneuverability settings before handing it off to go to the live servers. I mistakenly copied the maneuverability of the Eagle instead of the Humpback. People loved it so my mistake ended up remaining in. (With that said, you ended up with people not having much actual choice in what freighter they picked)

Personally, I'm of the belief that games should try to aim for having the balance not be a major thought on most days for most players without good reason.

As for the set in question, I've used it for a few hours and it's not that impressive for day to day play if you don't bug it.

Yes, I think it's likely that some people will perform very well with it in some PvP situations and potentially some group PvE situations but, I don't think it will shift people's results that much.

Personally, I would suggest revising it because it's a blatant enough upgrade compared to other gear that it looks bad and it wasn't enough fun to justify it. Plus, average people may not want to farm it if they are afraid it will get nerfed.

OBJnoob

Galeriano wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Galeriano I think you're the one overthinking it. Giving DKs major and minor heroism is a terrible idea. Whether or not it's the most OP set ever is really unimportant. You're arguing with a clickbait title instead of focusing on the subject matter.

Thing is DK already have acces to both. It was already given to a DK long time ago.

You mean "added to the game." Like for everyone to have. Heroism wasn't "given to DK" until right now.

Daedric Trickery gives you major heroism randomly. And everyone can use it.

This is a huge step in the wrong direction. The only thing harder to imagine than the devs putting this in the game is people actually defending it.

This is where I'd normally get kinda upset and type a whole lot trying to make you see reason. But the whole thing is so laughable I just can't.

You either know or you don't. -shrug-