Does Endless Archive really reset on logging off/disconnect?

CameraBeardThePirate

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The Endless Archive has a leaderboard attached to it, so yes, it should reset when you log out. Otherwise, there'd be a million and a half ways to cheese your score.

what ways exactly?

Most obviously - you can't use the armorer in the EA. If you could leave or relog, you'd be able to swap builds mid-run, which is something they explicitly said they don't want you doing.

It is easy enough to code the restriction that only lets you return with the same configuration you had when you exited.

This is completely baseless speculation. Have you ever coded anything for this game? Ever made something in the Hero Engine?

zaria

jaws343 wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Hopefully on a server disconnect you will have a grace time to log back in without reset.

We need something better than a grace time.
Current way just doesn't make sense. Once novelty wears off, the uniqueness of EA will quickly go down. There are so many reasons why you need/have to quit the game or change the character, with your progress going down the drain.

Say, you wanted to play EA, but you are hungry and out to lunch. Bummer, your content is lost. So make sure you are nicely fed, your phone is turned off, you did the toilet and have water drinks beside you before entering EA.

... Unless EA is just a small random arena with random bosses where you will go from time to time, spend 20-30mins and go out. If that's the case, this logout reset makes sense, but the value of EA is then seriously low with a huge missed opportunity.

Imagine EA having hidden discoveries deeper down, new areas, maybe even reaching Dwemer stuff? I really wish EA would pull of nicely and add a unique playing to this game. And roguelike dungeon generation is a step in the right direction.

I mean, that is exactly what it is, a dungeon with random bosses. From what they showed, outside of a few random quests, it isn't some deep lore dive.

And the reset is very clearly because this is leaderboard content, hence the inability to use the armorer. They don't want players changing characters or stepping away to resupply or craft new gear. You're supposed to survive in one go on the character you went in on.

Ok, so its just random bosses, does it become harder as you go deeper? Is it an actual dungeon that is you move forward kill trash, perhaps an boss before the main boss? else I call it an arena

jaws343

zaria wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Hopefully on a server disconnect you will have a grace time to log back in without reset.

We need something better than a grace time.
Current way just doesn't make sense. Once novelty wears off, the uniqueness of EA will quickly go down. There are so many reasons why you need/have to quit the game or change the character, with your progress going down the drain.

Say, you wanted to play EA, but you are hungry and out to lunch. Bummer, your content is lost. So make sure you are nicely fed, your phone is turned off, you did the toilet and have water drinks beside you before entering EA.

... Unless EA is just a small random arena with random bosses where you will go from time to time, spend 20-30mins and go out. If that's the case, this logout reset makes sense, but the value of EA is then seriously low with a huge missed opportunity.

Imagine EA having hidden discoveries deeper down, new areas, maybe even reaching Dwemer stuff? I really wish EA would pull of nicely and add a unique playing to this game. And roguelike dungeon generation is a step in the right direction.

I mean, that is exactly what it is, a dungeon with random bosses. From what they showed, outside of a few random quests, it isn't some deep lore dive.

And the reset is very clearly because this is leaderboard content, hence the inability to use the armorer. They don't want players changing characters or stepping away to resupply or craft new gear. You're supposed to survive in one go on the character you went in on.

Ok, so its just random bosses, does it become harder as you go deeper? Is it an actual dungeon that is you move forward kill trash, perhaps an boss before the main boss? else I call it an arena

Fine, call it a group arena. Blackrose Prison is also a group arena. And it resets after a period of time of not being in it.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The Endless Archive has a leaderboard attached to it, so yes, it should reset when you log out. Otherwise, there'd be a million and a half ways to cheese your score.

what ways exactly?

Most obviously - you can't use the armorer in the EA. If you could leave or relog, you'd be able to swap builds mid-run, which is something they explicitly said they don't want you doing.

It is easy enough to code the restriction that only lets you return with the same configuration you had when you exited.

This is completely baseless speculation. Have you ever coded anything for this game? Ever made something in the Hero Engine?

I don't need to see the code to know it can be done. Since this is new function the only question was if there was a will to do the work which doesn't appear to be the case. Before retiring I had 40 years of experience in software design and engineering. Some of that time was overseeing code written in the 1960's (30 years after the fact). If you want to talk about spaghetti code that was the perfect example. In this case we know the game is already capable of saving progress in other instanced content so all we are talking is additional entry and exit code to handle saving and restoring or validating character information. That might have taken some extra effort but it would have provided a much better deliverable.

CameraBeardThePirate

zaria wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Hopefully on a server disconnect you will have a grace time to log back in without reset.

We need something better than a grace time.
Current way just doesn't make sense. Once novelty wears off, the uniqueness of EA will quickly go down. There are so many reasons why you need/have to quit the game or change the character, with your progress going down the drain.

Say, you wanted to play EA, but you are hungry and out to lunch. Bummer, your content is lost. So make sure you are nicely fed, your phone is turned off, you did the toilet and have water drinks beside you before entering EA.

... Unless EA is just a small random arena with random bosses where you will go from time to time, spend 20-30mins and go out. If that's the case, this logout reset makes sense, but the value of EA is then seriously low with a huge missed opportunity.

Imagine EA having hidden discoveries deeper down, new areas, maybe even reaching Dwemer stuff? I really wish EA would pull of nicely and add a unique playing to this game. And roguelike dungeon generation is a step in the right direction.

I mean, that is exactly what it is, a dungeon with random bosses. From what they showed, outside of a few random quests, it isn't some deep lore dive.

And the reset is very clearly because this is leaderboard content, hence the inability to use the armorer. They don't want players changing characters or stepping away to resupply or craft new gear. You're supposed to survive in one go on the character you went in on.

Ok, so its just random bosses, does it become harder as you go deeper? Is it an actual dungeon that is you move forward kill trash, perhaps an boss before the main boss? else I call it an arena

Did you not watch the preview?

You kill waves of adds, then a boss, then you go to the next cycle and repeat. After a few cycles, it gets harder.

Lumsdenml

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The Endless Archive has a leaderboard attached to it, so yes, it should reset when you log out. Otherwise, there'd be a million and a half ways to cheese your score.

what ways exactly?

Most obviously - you can't use the armorer in the EA. If you could leave or relog, you'd be able to swap builds mid-run, which is something they explicitly said they don't want you doing.

It is easy enough to code the restriction that only lets you return with the same configuration you had when you exited. [snip]

The more I read about this EA it sounds less and less like an endless dungeon in the concept of FF XIV or WoW and more like the same old ESO arena with new lipstick.

Except it's endless....

[edited to remove quote]

OtarTheMad

Sounds fine to me. It’s leaderboard stuff so it makes sense that it resets especially since they said it’s not time based, so people would be able to cheese the crap out of it.

Since it’s randomized I don’t mind starting over if something happens. I’ll get a different experience every time.

Amottica

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The Endless Archive has a leaderboard attached to it, so yes, it should reset when you log out. Otherwise, there'd be a million and a half ways to cheese your score.

vMA doesn’t work that way.

vMA has a daily quest that saves progress at the arena level of a player logs out or leave the instance. Pretty sure that hasn’t changed. If the quest was completed that day then the player will lose all progress if they log out or leave the instance.

What is list of the player logs out is the score. One cannot make the leaderboard if they log out or DC. As such this cannot be used to cheese the score.

Mik195

UsualSurrender wrote: »

If the score stops when you leave, what is the point of demanding to come back "at the same spot"? You still will get automatically generated encounters.

Because for some of us killing a 1.7MM boss can take multiple minutes and figuring out how to stay alive long enough to beat another boss can take hours. Dropping the scoreboard can let me progress even if it takes months to progress and find another "too hard" point.

I think leaderboard runs should be done in one playthrough but giving an option to keep trying the next arc/stage when I'm fresh would make it much better for me.

Freilauftomate

I really liked the idea of this endless dungeon thing.

Then i remembered the server stability, players getting kicked, lags, bugs and all the other stuff... like problems not getting fixed for months/years.

So now i hope it will go well, but i kind of know it won't.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Why does it need a leaderboard? What does it do?

I just wanted an endless dungeon like the abyss from TES Blades that I could enjoy not another arena and especially not one set only in Apocrypha.

Luke_Flamesword

Technically it may be endless, but practically it will be not - with higher and higher difficulty with every stage at some point it will be just impossible to beat and you will die one shoted by bosses with 10mln HP and 20 powerfull adds or something. They won't allow better players to grind higher arc with high currency gains - for 100% at some point there will so hard to make sure that even the best ones will die.

All these is just upgraded and slightly changed arena content - main difference here is that there is no static end point with final reward - instead you are rewarded through all arcs (which is nice) and rewards becames better and better as you progress. But still it's just tweaked, fancy arena, nothing more.

Gray_howling_parrot

Yes agreed - hopefully they’ll see this feedback often enough in the PTS to change it.

When I think of rogue-likes I think of Hades personally. Absolutely love it and love that I can leave to go eat dinner for instance, hop back on, and pick up where I left off. It shouldn’t end your run until you die BUT you should finish an arc or a round prior to logging off - otherwise, you should have to do that arc or round all over again in my opinion.

Also, EA seemed to remind me of Torghast slightly - anyone else?

spartaxoxo

jaws343 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Hopefully on a server disconnect you will have a grace time to log back in without reset.

We need something better than a grace time.
Current way just doesn't make sense. Once novelty wears off, the uniqueness of EA will quickly go down. There are so many reasons why you need/have to quit the game or change the character, with your progress going down the drain.

Say, you wanted to play EA, but you are hungry and out to lunch. Bummer, your content is lost. So make sure you are nicely fed, your phone is turned off, you did the toilet and have water drinks beside you before entering EA.

... Unless EA is just a small random arena with random bosses where you will go from time to time, spend 20-30mins and go out. If that's the case, this logout reset makes sense, but the value of EA is then seriously low with a huge missed opportunity.

Imagine EA having hidden discoveries deeper down, new areas, maybe even reaching Dwemer stuff? I really wish EA would pull of nicely and add a unique playing to this game. And roguelike dungeon generation is a step in the right direction.

I mean, that is exactly what it is, a dungeon with random bosses. From what they showed, outside of a few random quests, it isn't some deep lore dive.

And the reset is very clearly because this is leaderboard content, hence the inability to use the armorer. They don't want players changing characters or stepping away to resupply or craft new gear. You're supposed to survive in one go on the character you went in on.

But Maelstrom doesn't reset and neither does Vateshran Hallows, and they have leaderboards as well. If you leave after a small grace period for disconnects, it should disqualify you from the leaderboard and hide your score. But I don't see why the whole dungeon should need to reset for that reason.

Those two are not group dungeons. This one is. And I am fairly certain that Vateshran resets if you are out of it for long enough, or swap characters as the OP suggested they would want to do.

Vateshran has a quest you take and it remembers your progress and even which buffs you found. However, once you leave for a while you are disqualified from the no death achievement and leaderboards. Due to this disqualification, leaderboards are still fair. But they are also able to allow for the user friendly design of being able to come back.

Black Rose Prison, Vateshran Hallows, and Maelstrom Arena all retain your progress via quest. It's not unique to VH.

Giulietta

I watched the stream and they said something about a specific (short) timespan you can be offline before it resets, as to prevent having to restart after a dc

maboleth

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Why does it need a leaderboard? What does it do?

I just wanted an endless dungeon like the abyss from TES Blades that I could enjoy not another arena and especially not one set only in Apocrypha.

This.
That's what I've hoped too (Blades-like or roguelike like Angband). Something that is really different in playstyle.

I imagined an unfathomable depths with lots of loot and rewards hidden deep underground - the deeper you go the greater the rewards and loot. With those that survived telling a tale what they saw and got...

Wishful thinking. So far this looks/sounds like repackaged arena made to fit the system already installed in ESO.

Jaraal

Naftal wrote: »

The bigger issue is no difficulty levels and no ability start at the level you want.

If you can fight against the difficulty that happens one hour after start, do you always need to play one hour before you can actually play?

Yes, if there's a leaderboard and everyone is scored the same. Otherwise, it'd be like 2 football teams agreeing to just play the fourth quarter and call the results complete.

And as far as scaling goes, I doubt the difficulty increments will be as small as say, 1% per level. Players would get bored very quickly spending hours doing what they view as trivial content just to get to the harder stuff. I didn't watch the reveal.... is there going to be Normal and Veteran difficulty levels and separate scoreboards?

Necrotech_Master

Jaraal wrote: »

Naftal wrote: »

The bigger issue is no difficulty levels and no ability start at the level you want.

If you can fight against the difficulty that happens one hour after start, do you always need to play one hour before you can actually play?

Yes, if there's a leaderboard and everyone is scored the same. Otherwise, it'd be like 2 football teams agreeing to just play the fourth quarter and call the results complete.

And as far as scaling goes, I doubt the difficulty increments will be as small as say, 1% per level. Players would get bored very quickly spending hours doing what they view as trivial content just to get to the harder stuff. I didn't watch the reveal.... is there going to be Normal and Veteran difficulty levels and separate scoreboards?

from what i saw there is no "normal" or "vet" difficulties for this, it starts at some base and then increases over time

i didnt watch the reveal either so i dont know any more details, but i have seen kevin post in one of the other threads that there is no "difficulty" for it, kind of like bastion nymics are a fixed difficulty that dont use the normal or vet modes (though that can still be used to reset the instance)

peacenote

So, what's funny to me is I assumed all along that if you left an "endless dungeon" it would reset. None of the marketing made me think otherwise. Because that is how pretty much any group instanced content in ESO works. Why would this be any different? You can try to beat a trial for 12 hours but once everyone leaves the instance, that's it. You can save progress in the solo arenas... because they are solo... but you can't save progress in the group arenas because of the group aspect. In fact I think the leaderboard observation is a red herring, because we can save progress in the solo arenas (which have leaderboards) but not in dungeons (which do not have leaderboards).

Since the Endless Dungeon supports duos, it makes sense that it would be the same to me. It is endless in that it doesn't end until you leave. There'a likely no "activity complete" notification. I don't understand an expectation that you could save and return, forever, to fulfill the "endless" criteria.

I have often wished you could "save" BRP and DSA but I totally get why we can't and those same complications seem to apply here.

OtarTheMad

Not trying to be mean by saying this but some of you really need to just go watch the livestream, all of the questions I’ve seen on here, for the most part, were answered on it.

Jaraal

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Not trying to be mean by saying this but some of you really need to just go watch the livestream, all of the questions I’ve seen on here, for the most part, were answered on it.

Not everybody has time for that, but thanks for the suggestion.

OtarTheMad

Jaraal wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Not trying to be mean by saying this but some of you really need to just go watch the livestream, all of the questions I’ve seen on here, for the most part, were answered on it.

Not everybody has time for that, but thanks for the suggestion.

I get that, I usually watch the past broadcasts a little at a time myself… almost like tv episodes. I always miss majority of the livestreams if not all of them.

spartaxoxo

peacenote wrote: »

I have often wished you could "save" BRP and DSA but I totally get why we can't and those same complications seem to apply here.

You know I had assumed that you could save BRP because the only time I ever left with the intention to come back, the quest claimed I could. But I just went back to double check and intentionally left it, played a ToT game, and then re-entered. And the quest updated when I got back that I had to redo the first level. I don't even understand the point of such a misleading quest now. LOL

mocap

I feel like EA will be similar to Summit from Division 2.

rpa

I may have an opinion after I check it at PTS.

AlterBlika

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Technically it may be endless, but practically it will be not - with higher and higher difficulty with every stage at some point it will be just impossible to beat and you will die one shoted by bosses with 10mln HP and 20 powerfull adds or something. They won't allow better players to grind higher arc with high currency gains - for 100% at some point there will so hard to make sure that even the best ones will die.

that's the whole point, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense

AlterBlika

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Black Rose Prison, Vateshran Hallows, and Maelstrom Arena all retain your progress via quest. It's not unique to VH.

For me BRP always resets when I leave the arena. It just resets the quest. It's good tho, for farming exp, no need to be in group

Aislinna

Deltia did a nice interview with Mike Finnegan after the preview stream and he touch a bit more on the subject.

Yes, EA ends when you leave, but there is a 5 minute grace period if you disconnect.

EA ends after using 3 threads of fate, which is a group wipe. i.e., if solo (no companion), your death consumes a thread. If you are duo or using your companion, both must die to consume a thread, so a group wipe.

There is also a mechanism to end your run before your deaths to get the rewards.

Leaderboard event, so no armory use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKX5Oc8e9yg&ab_channel=Deltia%27sGaming

FantasticFreddie

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Hopefully on a server disconnect you will have a grace time to log back in without reset.

We need something better than a grace time.
Current way just doesn't make sense. Once novelty wears off, the uniqueness of EA will quickly go down. There are so many reasons why you need/have to quit the game or change the character, with your progress going down the drain.

Say, you wanted to play EA, but you are hungry and out to lunch. Bummer, your content is lost. So make sure you are nicely fed, your phone is turned off, you did the toilet and have water drinks beside you before entering EA.

... Unless EA is just a small random arena with random bosses where you will go from time to time, spend 20-30mins and go out. If that's the case, this logout reset makes sense, but the value of EA is then seriously low with a huge missed opportunity.

Imagine EA having hidden discoveries deeper down, new areas, maybe even reaching Dwemer stuff? I really wish EA would pull of nicely and add a unique playing to this game. And roguelike dungeon generation is a step in the right direction.

I mean, that is exactly what it is, a dungeon with random bosses. From what they showed, outside of a few random quests, it isn't some deep lore dive.

And the reset is very clearly because this is leaderboard content, hence the inability to use the armorer. They don't want players changing characters or stepping away to resupply or craft new gear. You're supposed to survive in one go on the character you went in on.

But Maelstrom doesn't reset and neither does Vateshran Hallows, and they have leaderboards as well. If you leave after a small grace period for disconnects, it should disqualify you from the leaderboard and hide your score. But I don't see why the whole dungeon should need to reset for that reason.

Those two are not group dungeons. This one is. And I am fairly certain that Vateshran resets if you are out of it for long enough, or swap characters as the OP suggested they would want to do.

Vateshran has a quest you take and it remembers your progress and even which buffs you found. However, once you leave for a while you are disqualified from the no death achievement and leaderboards. Due to this disqualification, leaderboards are still fair. But they are also able to allow for the user friendly design of being able to come back.

Black Rose Prison, Vateshran Hallows, and Maelstrom Arena all retain your progress via quest. It's not unique to VH.

Blackrose does not, only the solo arenas do.

I think the problem at some level is it can be both a group or a solo dungeon, the intention is probably to prevent cheesing or something, or maybe there are complications with it from a coding standpoint, but from a player point of view, let me log out and come back tomorrow when I am fresh and energized, without losing my spot.

spartaxoxo

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Hopefully on a server disconnect you will have a grace time to log back in without reset.

We need something better than a grace time.
Current way just doesn't make sense. Once novelty wears off, the uniqueness of EA will quickly go down. There are so many reasons why you need/have to quit the game or change the character, with your progress going down the drain.

Say, you wanted to play EA, but you are hungry and out to lunch. Bummer, your content is lost. So make sure you are nicely fed, your phone is turned off, you did the toilet and have water drinks beside you before entering EA.

... Unless EA is just a small random arena with random bosses where you will go from time to time, spend 20-30mins and go out. If that's the case, this logout reset makes sense, but the value of EA is then seriously low with a huge missed opportunity.

Imagine EA having hidden discoveries deeper down, new areas, maybe even reaching Dwemer stuff? I really wish EA would pull of nicely and add a unique playing to this game. And roguelike dungeon generation is a step in the right direction.

I mean, that is exactly what it is, a dungeon with random bosses. From what they showed, outside of a few random quests, it isn't some deep lore dive.

And the reset is very clearly because this is leaderboard content, hence the inability to use the armorer. They don't want players changing characters or stepping away to resupply or craft new gear. You're supposed to survive in one go on the character you went in on.

But Maelstrom doesn't reset and neither does Vateshran Hallows, and they have leaderboards as well. If you leave after a small grace period for disconnects, it should disqualify you from the leaderboard and hide your score. But I don't see why the whole dungeon should need to reset for that reason.

Those two are not group dungeons. This one is. And I am fairly certain that Vateshran resets if you are out of it for long enough, or swap characters as the OP suggested they would want to do.

Vateshran has a quest you take and it remembers your progress and even which buffs you found. However, once you leave for a while you are disqualified from the no death achievement and leaderboards. Due to this disqualification, leaderboards are still fair. But they are also able to allow for the user friendly design of being able to come back.

Black Rose Prison, Vateshran Hallows, and Maelstrom Arena all retain your progress via quest. It's not unique to VH.

Blackrose does not, only the solo arenas do.

I think the problem at some level is it can be both a group or a solo dungeon, the intention is probably to prevent cheesing or something, or maybe there are complications with it from a coding standpoint, but from a player point of view, let me log out and come back tomorrow when I am fresh and energized, without losing my spot.

Yup. I said later in the thread, I realize that now after testing it. The quest shows up as saving the stage you were on and says you can go back upon leaving. That's what lead me to that impression as I finished it in one go all other times. However when I tested it, when you re-enter it, it actually updates back to the original level. I think they should make it so BRP doesn't work that way either then.

https://youtu.be/ZnRYSkfgrNE?si=t0cVlTy3BrCIVj8g

I really don't see any reason these two shouldn't work like Maelstrom. Just disqualify the people entering that way from the achievements and leaderboards.